ESO needs an economy

Thulsola

Elencha wrote: »

I could get down with that. You get great quality at a hellaciously slow pace for micromanaging. It makes sense.
I just had another idea. Allow the formation of true crafting guilds. With the ability to have apprentices who can literally learn their craft from you in addition to their own research. And because teaching is often the best way to learn, the master gains from the relationship as well.

The idea of an apprentice system is interesting... perhaps something like deconing/researching items made by a particular master gives you bonuses to learn their specialties/bonus traits?

Elencha

That's an excellent idea as well, but that wasn't quite the thought I had. I was thinking more along the lines of, if one is an apprentice research time is reduced by a certain percentage. Sort of an analogue for having an instructor versus independent study. While the master's benefit would be the ability to research trait combinations, but only combinations of traits he has helped his apprentice research. This would be analogous to the way returning to basics in the form of teaching helps one learn new ways of looking at things with which they thought they were already intimately familiar.

Edited for grammar fail

methjester

Let them keep screwing up this game another few weeks and there won't be too many people left.

Should be enough people to fit in a few guilds.

Thulsola

methjester wrote: »

Let them keep screwing up this game another few weeks and there won't be too many people left.

Should be enough people to fit in a few guilds.

Yes, because that comment contributes to this conversation in a substantive and helpful way. Thanks for playing.

methjester

Thulsola wrote: »

methjester wrote: »

Let them keep screwing up this game another few weeks and there won't be too many people left.

Should be enough people to fit in a few guilds.

Yes, because that comment contributes to this conversation in a substantive and helpful way. Thanks for playing.

The truth hurts. They aren't fixing the game let alone do anything to improve the economy.

I would love an auction house, or a trade zone, or even the guild kiosk thing that they mentioned two months ago but have yet to mention since. How about a search bar in the guild store for a start?

I'm all for improvement, but Zenimax hasn't exactly been on top of things so I'm sorry if my mood is less than chipper.

Sorry I'm sorry to burst your bubble but they can't fix a nightblade problems, Caltrops, or simple things along those lines. Quests that they said they fixed are still quite broken, and DK's and Sorc's are the only classes worth a darn. If you want them to add things to enhance the economy think small and hope it can be done with add-ons because I think Zeni is mailing it in.

Think grand, but be real.

Jeremy

Thulsola wrote: »

If ESO is going to survive, it needs to create an economy in which I can focus on crafting and have it be both challenging and rewarding - and someone else can focus on leveling or PVP and absolutely need to have a relationship with a crafting player or two in order to be successful.

Completely agree with you on this.

This game's economy does not adequately support it's crafting design. And relying on scavenging and deconstruction does not get the job done well enough to fully utilize its potential.

That's why many of us have been asking for an auction house or something similar that would open the market up so players could buy the materials they need. Because serious crafters who would like to craft themselves high quality armor while advancing their character deserve to enjoy this game too.

zeuseason

Because the game has been running 3 or so months now without an economy, it'd take the game a year+ to create a stable economy considering the massive bot gold influx, massive hoarder players that have saved everything they've collected, and it will come down to implementation.

ZOS knows already that guild stores/ah are not working what-so-ever, so it'd take a substantial rework of the game mechanic to fix/change which'll take more time that what most players will give them to stay.

Thulsola

methjester wrote: »

Sorry I'm sorry to burst your bubble but they can't fix a nightblade problems, Caltrops, or simple things along those lines. Quests that they said they fixed are still quite broken, and DK's and Sorc's are the only classes worth a darn. If you want them to add things to enhance the economy think small and hope it can be done with add-ons because I think Zeni is mailing it in.

Think grand, but be real.

You haven't burst my bubble - this just isn't the thread for your Zeni-hate. You have umpteen threads on this forum where you can discuss all the things wrong with the game that you don't like, how it sucks, and what you hate about Zeni. This isn't that thread - but you just can't help yourself from trolling it.

Some of us like the game. We are having fun - and we want to be able to talk about what we want from the game in a positive way without always being trolled by the haters.

If you don't have something productive to add to this conversation, please go complain somewhere else.

Thulsola

Jeremy wrote: »

That's why many of us have been asking for an auction house or something similar that would open the market up so players could buy the materials they need. Because serious crafters who would like to craft themselves high quality armor while advancing their character deserve to enjoy this game too.

I don't know that an AH would solve the issue, to be honest.

The way crafting works in ESO, I think that the real issue is more about trying to sell speculation builds that are all ready created. The times I have made money on ESO selling crafted gear is when someone has asked for a particular build, and I have made it for them.

What if, instead of another place to thing we the crafters think people want, instead there was some sort of place where people could define what gear they wanted (maybe done in a similar interface to the crafting interface they already have), and then crafters could bid on providing it for them. Even if this was implemented at the guild level, it would be a big improvement over what they have now.

Jeremy

Thulsola wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

That's why many of us have been asking for an auction house or something similar that would open the market up so players could buy the materials they need. Because serious crafters who would like to craft themselves high quality armor while advancing their character deserve to enjoy this game too.

I don't know that an AH would solve the issue, to be honest.

The way crafting works in ESO, I think that the real issue is more about trying to sell speculation builds that are all ready created. The times I have made money on ESO selling crafted gear is when someone has asked for a particular build, and I have made it for them.

What if, instead of another place to thing we the crafters think people want, instead there was some sort of place where people could define what gear they wanted (maybe done in a similar interface to the crafting interface they already have), and then crafters could bid on providing it for them. Even if this was implemented at the guild level, it would be a big improvement over what they have now.

I believe having an auction house would go a long way to fixing it.

It would give consumers a reliable selection to choose from so they wouldn't have to rely on trade spam or getting lucky in the guild store. Though your idea is interesting and I certainly agree it would be better than what we have now.

Thulsola

Jeremy wrote: »

I believe having an auction house would go a long way to fixing it.

It would give consumers a reliable selection to choose from so they wouldn't have to rely on trade spam or getting lucky in the guild store. Though your idea is interesting and I certainly agree it would be better than what we have now.

I'm in 3 trade guilds - that is between 1,300 to 1,500 people trading back and forth. My Guild mates are in three or four others. There is nothing I have been looking for that I haven't been able to find.

But more importantly - other than a couple of dropped items I needed - there was nothing I was looking for that I couldn't pay a crafter to make for me.

I really, really don't believe that having a megaserver wide AH is going to do anything but result in rapid deflation of what little economy we do have. I'm still not going to spec build a level 36 Precise Blue Bow of Night's Silence with a purple fire enchant on it and stick it in the AH. Because I'm going to get a message from you saying "Can you make one that is weighted, green and has a frost enchant?

There are simply too many crafting options for a straight up AH to be a viable solution.

Jeremy

Thulsola wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I believe having an auction house would go a long way to fixing it.

It would give consumers a reliable selection to choose from so they wouldn't have to rely on trade spam or getting lucky in the guild store. Though your idea is interesting and I certainly agree it would be better than what we have now.

I'm in 3 trade guilds - that is between 1,300 to 1,500 people trading back and forth. My Guild mates are in three or four others. There is nothing I have been looking for that I haven't been able to find.

.

I sure wish I could say that because I scan through all five of my guilds on a regular basis without finding what I'm looking for to buy. If fact, it's rare when I actually do find what I'm looking for.

I disagree with you about the auction house. But I think I'll refrain from debating about it here because I don't want to risk closing down your thread.

Thulsola

Jeremy wrote: »

I sure wish I could say that because I scan through all five of my guilds on a regular basis without finding what I'm looking for to buy. If fact, it's rare when I actually do find what I'm looking for.

What kind of things are you looking for?

Mablung

Jeremy wrote: »

Thulsola wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I believe having an auction house would go a long way to fixing it.

It would give consumers a reliable selection to choose from so they wouldn't have to rely on trade spam or getting lucky in the guild store. Though your idea is interesting and I certainly agree it would be better than what we have now.

I'm in 3 trade guilds - that is between 1,300 to 1,500 people trading back and forth. My Guild mates are in three or four others. There is nothing I have been looking for that I haven't been able to find.

.

I sure wish I could say that because I scan through all five of my guilds on a regular basis without finding what I'm looking for to buy. If fact, it's rare when I actually do find what I'm looking for.

I disagree with you about the auction house. But I think I'll refrain from debating about it here because I don't want to risk closing down your thread.

I am in 4, full trade guilds and finding anything is like finding a needle in a haystack. First the search function is beyond horrible. Second, it does not seem like anyone uses these other than to make a few extra gold on green drops that nobody wants (vendor trash). If any crafted items are on there, they are priced way over market value and you can generally buy them cheaper through zone chat.

Having a universal auction house would go along way to stabilizing the economy and getting rid of bots(both topics for another thread).

Jeremy

Thulsola wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I sure wish I could say that because I scan through all five of my guilds on a regular basis without finding what I'm looking for to buy. If fact, it's rare when I actually do find what I'm looking for.

What kind of things are you looking for?

Honing Stones, Dwarven Oil, Pitch, Turpen, Diamonds, Red Wheat, Heavy or Jewelry upgrades: preferably Warlock, specific runes (Makko in particular), provisioning recipes etc. Basically anything I need ^^

The only sort of goods I've had any success finding in these guild stores that I have a need for has been gear to research for traits. That's about it.

Thulsola

Jeremy wrote: »

Thulsola wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I sure wish I could say that because I scan through all five of my guilds on a regular basis without finding what I'm looking for to buy. If fact, it's rare when I actually do find what I'm looking for.

What kind of things are you looking for?

Honing Stones, Dwarven Oil, Pitch, Turpen, Diamonds, Red Wheat, Heavy or Jewelry Warlock gear, provisioning recipes etc. Basically anything I need ^^

Those are all relatively rare, expensive items (except diamonds, which basically have no value, and the jewelry - on which you have a point, completing "drop" sets through guild stores can be difficult). All my guilds have plenty of green recipes. Of course blue and purple recipes aren't in the guild stores, they drop too rarely and are too sought after to last long in a store even if they are listed.

We are talking about different things in this discussion. You want those things to craft your own weapons and armour without having to do the work of gathering the materials yourself. I don't sell my mats in raw form. I use them to build gear for people. The only time I will sell raw mats is when someone comes onto zone or guild chat begging for them at a significantly impressive price. Whatever you are planning on using those items to build, a crafter dedicated to crafting can supply all those mats and build it for you.

An AH is not going to solve this issue, because the people who actively farm those items you describe - like me - aren't going to list them on an AH anymore than we are going to list them in a Guild Store.

SDZald

Wowwww that is one heck of a long list, I need a raise got any ideas?

Thulsola

Mablung wrote: »

Having a universal auction house would go along way to stabilizing the economy and getting rid of bots(both topics for another thread).

An Auction House would simply allow the Bots to undercut everyone on the server selling anything, and cause rapid deflation of what little economy there is. Sure, it would stabilize the economy - to the lowest possible values.

Jeremy

Thulsola wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Thulsola wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I sure wish I could say that because I scan through all five of my guilds on a regular basis without finding what I'm looking for to buy. If fact, it's rare when I actually do find what I'm looking for.

What kind of things are you looking for?

Honing Stones, Dwarven Oil, Pitch, Turpen, Diamonds, Red Wheat, Heavy or Jewelry Warlock gear, provisioning recipes etc. Basically anything I need ^^

An AH is not going to solve this issue, because the people who actively farm those items you describe - like me - aren't going to list them on an AH anymore than we are going to list them in a Guild Store.

We are talking about different things in this discussion. You want those things to craft your own weapons and armour without having to do the work of gathering the materials yourself

And I disagree with you.

If there was actually an active market (auction house) that players could reliably sell these items on - I believe they would take advantage of it. Just as they have on every other game I've played that had an auction house.

And I have no problems working for these materials myself. I spend hours upon hours doing it. But it would be nice to have an effective economy that allowed me to spend my gold (which I also work for) to supplement my efforts.

Mablung

Thulsola wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

Having a universal auction house would go along way to stabilizing the economy and getting rid of bots(both topics for another thread).

An Auction House would simply allow the Bots to undercut everyone on the server selling anything, and cause rapid deflation of what little economy there is. Sure, it would stabilize the economy - to the lowest possible values.

And this is worse than the inflated values now that drive people to RMT sites? Absolutely not. Lower values means that the way we obtain gold through game mechanics begins to work. RMT sites have less demand which will lead to less postings on the AH. Of course this would take months to work but it would definitely work better than what is currently happening to the economy.

SDZald

Thulsola wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

Having a universal auction house would go along way to stabilizing the economy and getting rid of bots(both topics for another thread).

An Auction House would simply allow the Bots to undercut everyone on the server selling anything, and cause rapid deflation of what little economy there is. Sure, it would stabilize the economy - to the lowest possible values.

As long as the sell of in game items for real world money is good, you are right. In another game with an auction house Gold Framers bought up rare items from the auction house so they could keep selling at their set price.

Auction house make it easier for them, they don't have to spam their sales and put their accounts at risk.

Jeremy

SDZald wrote: »

Thulsola wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

Having a universal auction house would go along way to stabilizing the economy and getting rid of bots(both topics for another thread).

An Auction House would simply allow the Bots to undercut everyone on the server selling anything, and cause rapid deflation of what little economy there is. Sure, it would stabilize the economy - to the lowest possible values.

As long as the sell of in game items for real world money is good, you are right. In another game with an auction house Gold Framers bought up rare items from the auction house so they could keep selling at their set price.

Auction house make it easier for them, they don't have to spam their sales and put their accounts at risk.

No they don't. If anything - an auction house would publicize this kind of activity on the market boards and make them easier to spot and ban.

I've played numerous MMORPGs that had auction houses. They all provided functional and effective economies. And on none of them did auction houses allow gold farmers buy up the market and then inflate it to ridiculous prices.

This notion that auction houses allow gold farmers to control the economy needs to die already. It's just not true.

Thulsola

Mablung wrote: »

And this is worse than the inflated values now that drive people to RMT sites? Absolutely not. Lower values means that the way we obtain gold through game mechanics begins to work. RMT sites have less demand which will lead to less postings on the AH. Of course this would take months to work but it would definitely work better than what is currently happening to the economy.

Inflated prices do not drive people to cheat. Cheaters cheat. All it would mean is that the people going to the RMT sites could buy more in game goodies with the gold they buy.

I have no problem selling items of value in the game. I set fair prices in Guild Stores, and things sell. I also spend that golds buying cheap (a relative term) purple, blue and green items from the guild stores so I can deconstruct them to obtain more tannins and materials. Then I craft things with those materials for people who ask, and I make more gold, so I can get more supplies... etc, etc. etc.

I'm sorry, I just do not see how an AH would benefit the economy of this game at all. Crafter/gatherers would still be left having to decide between selling our materials or taking a chance on spec building something that people may not want or need. It would further shift the economy from player centric to questing/mob centric.

Thulsola

Jeremy wrote: »

And I disagree with you.

If there was actually an active market (auction house) that players could reliably sell these items on - I believe they would take advantage of it. Just as they have on every other game I've played that had an auction house.

And I have no problems working for these materials myself. I spend hours upon hours doing it. But it would be nice to have an effective economy that allowed me to spend my gold (which I also work for) to supplement my efforts.

The cheapest hemming (singular) that I could find on any of my three guild stores (all three had hemming, btw - and pitch, honing stones, embroidery, mastic, turpin, etc.) was 90g for 1. Most hemming was closer to 150g that I could find. But why would I buy it for that? I have level 3 in clothing deconstruct. I get a hemming from almost every green I decon. There were 4 green items for less than 90g in 2 of the 3 auction houses, and 2 in the other. Why would I buy a hemming when I could buy a few greens for not much more money, get multiple hemming, some leather/cloth, and the decon experience?

I have absolutely no issue reliably selling my crafting materials - if I wanted to. Creating an AH that drives the prices of these item to the floor isn't going to make me want to sell the crafting materials I need to make armour for me and my customers anymore than I already do.

wrlifeboil

Thulsola wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

And I disagree with you.

If there was actually an active market (auction house) that players could reliably sell these items on - I believe they would take advantage of it. Just as they have on every other game I've played that had an auction house.

And I have no problems working for these materials myself. I spend hours upon hours doing it. But it would be nice to have an effective economy that allowed me to spend my gold (which I also work for) to supplement my efforts.

The cheapest hemming (singular) that I could find on any of my three guild stores (all three had hemming, btw - and pitch, honing stones, embroidery, mastic, turpin, etc.) was 90g for 1. Most hemming was closer to 150g that I could find. But why would I buy it for that? I have level 3 in clothing deconstruct. I get a hemming from almost every green I decon. There were 4 green items for less than 90g in 2 of the 3 auction houses, and 2 in the other. Why would I buy a hemming when I could buy a few greens for not much more money, get multiple hemming, some leather/cloth, and the decon experience?

I have absolutely no issue reliably selling my crafting materials - if I wanted to. Creating an AH that drives the prices of these item to the floor isn't going to make me want to sell the crafting materials I need to make armour for me and my customers anymore than I already do.

90g/hemming. You must be in a price-gouging guild. The going rate is more like 40-50g.

Thulsola

wrlifeboil wrote: »

90g/hemming. You must be in a price-gouging guild. The going rate is more like 40-50g.

Each guild has its own economy. That is a positive. The supply and demand of each guild dictates the prices. This is beneficial to the economy of the game as a whole.

Also - I said the cheapest I could find was 90g (across 3 guilds, btw). That doesn't mean that cheaper hemming wasn't listed at one point, only that it sold quickly if it was. Properly priced items sell quickly when there is a demand.

Mablung

Thulsola wrote: »

Inflated prices do not drive people to cheat. Cheaters cheat. All it would mean is that the people going to the RMT sites could buy more in game goodies with the gold they buy.

Buying gold does not constitute those people being labeled as cheaters. A cheater is someone who gains advantage over an opponent through illegal means. By no means do people who buy gold gain any sort of advantage over other players in this game via items. Nothing is game give you an advantage over anything or anyone by obtaining gold in any form. I do not view people who have bought gold (and I know no one who has) as cheaters.

Thulsola wrote: »

I have no problem selling items of value in the game. I set fair prices in Guild Stores, and things sell. I also spend that golds buying cheap (a relative term) purple, blue and green items from the guild stores so I can deconstruct them to obtain more tannins and materials. Then I craft things with those materials for people who ask, and I make more gold, so I can get more supplies... etc, etc. etc.

You are a rare crafter then if you are making money selling inside of your guild store. Thank you for explaining how you do this for those of us too dumb to understand the basics of crafting and selling.

Thulsola wrote: »

I'm sorry, I just do not see how an AH would benefit the economy of this game at all. Crafter/gatherers would still be left having to decide between selling our materials or taking a chance on spec building something that people may not want or need. It would further shift the economy from player centric to questing/mob centric.

Auction Houses work. They have worked in every other MMO on the market. Itemization is non existent in this game and it is not hard to determine as a crafter what people want crafted. Its really simple actually, look at the FotM, gear those people are using and voila you now have an inside track as to what to make. Supply for their demand.

The hot items actually at the moment are questing/mob centric items so I am not sure where you are trying to go with that part of your argument. An AH stabilizes the economy, it rids the game of bots and drives down the need for third party gold. These are facts. While other games with AHs do have bot/seller issues, none of them have them on this scale.

Mablung

Thulsola wrote: »

wrlifeboil wrote: »

90g/hemming. You must be in a price-gouging guild. The going rate is more like 40-50g.

Each guild has its own economy. That is a positive. The supply and demand of each guild dictates the prices. This is beneficial to the economy of the game as a whole.

Also - I said the cheapest I could find was 90g (across 3 guilds, btw). That doesn't mean that cheaper hemming wasn't listed at one point, only that it sold quickly if it was. Properly priced items sell quickly when there is a demand.

Each guild having its own economy is absolutely not a positive. This is why the actual going rate for Hemming on the open market is 40-50g per. As you demonstrate, guild driven economies are creating inflation and undermining their own purpose. These guild stores cater to greed. Everyone wants to squeeze that little last bit of gold out of the item that they are trying to sell that is why you see crappy greens there being sold for 100g+ because in that market, that is what hemmings are actually going for.

A single AH drives those costs down to what everyone is selling at in zone chat and that would be around 40g per. Is there potential for prices dropping further? Yes and that is great. It would make it easier for non crafters to obtain the mats they need to hire crafters to make the gear they want.

I think you are just arguing to argue now. There is no logical need for individual guild economies or stores. The open market is better than those. A single AH would balance the economy and solve most of the RMT issues. That is factually based on evidence as seen in every other MMO on the market.

wrlifeboil

Thulsola wrote: »

wrlifeboil wrote: »

90g/hemming. You must be in a price-gouging guild. The going rate is more like 40-50g.

Each guild has its own economy. That is a positive. The supply and demand of each guild dictates the prices. This is beneficial to the economy of the game as a whole.

Also - I said the cheapest I could find was 90g (across 3 guilds, btw). That doesn't mean that cheaper hemming wasn't listed at one point, only that it sold quickly if it was. Properly priced items sell quickly when there is a demand.

Price gouging is healthy for an economy? Really??

Jeremy

Thulsola wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

And I disagree with you.

If there was actually an active market (auction house) that players could reliably sell these items on - I believe they would take advantage of it. Just as they have on every other game I've played that had an auction house.

And I have no problems working for these materials myself. I spend hours upon hours doing it. But it would be nice to have an effective economy that allowed me to spend my gold (which I also work for) to supplement my efforts.

The cheapest hemming (singular) that I could find on any of my three guild stores (all three had hemming, btw - and pitch, honing stones, embroidery, mastic, turpin, etc.) was 90g for 1. Most hemming was closer to 150g that I could find. But why would I buy it for that? I have level 3 in clothing deconstruct. I get a hemming from almost every green I decon. There were 4 green items for less than 90g in 2 of the 3 auction houses, and 2 in the other. Why would I buy a hemming when I could buy a few greens for not much more money, get multiple hemming, some leather/cloth, and the decon experience?

I have absolutely no issue reliably selling my crafting materials - if I wanted to. Creating an AH that drives the prices of these item to the floor isn't going to make me want to sell the crafting materials I need to make armour for me and my customers anymore than I already do.

There's really not much point in debating it. We just have such wildly different experiences and perspectives I doubt we are going to agree on much. All I know is I would be selling items a lot more (including hemming) if this game had an auction house.

I prefer a more active and competitive market. The slow and unreliable markets guild stores provide are simply more trouble than they are worth in my opinion. Though I do agree with you that an auction house would likely lower the prices for materials. But that's a good thing because I believe many items to be over-prices currently. And the increase in available demand would more than make up for it.