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Lets do some basic math, Dungeons and stuff
Kaelis33
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So in Zenimax's infinite wisdom they decided to make repeating a dungeon a complete and utter waste of time. Whilst leveling for sure, there is no XP gain, you get the same blue items you'll level out of anyways. And likely you'll get a repair bill that, depending on how bad the group is, might not even be compensated with loot selling.
So what does this do to the game? Well if we think the ratio to tanks is about 1 to 15 (and to be honest while leveling, no one is going to gimp themselves with a tank build....after all you can't group and earn XP). So 1 to 15 ratio.....roughly.
With ZERO incentive to repeat dungeons, that means 4 out of 15 people will actually find the classes they need to finish the dungeon properly. Because there are not enough tanks to go around. So what you will see...UNLESS tanks just run dungeons out of the goodness of their heart there will be people who can't even fill out a group properly.
When we look at healers its not so bad, because some of the same base stats can be used for DPS and healing, so a dual role is more likely. Tanking though....requires a less DPS oriented armor, and also stats which emphasize survival over DPS. Not many people leveling are going to do this.
And those people who gravitate towards support roles will not specialize beyond that which would gimp them in solo. Zenimax you have got to be kidding me. For the love of God please turn on XP in dungeons, make group content rewarding. I cannot even find a tank all day today for groups, and frankly I see why.
You have purposely made grouping BAD.....and the sad thing is the dungeons and group play is actually well done. But its just pointless to do it, and you made it this way on purpose!
So what does this do to the game? Well if we think the ratio to tanks is about 1 to 15 (and to be honest while leveling, no one is going to gimp themselves with a tank build....after all you can't group and earn XP). So 1 to 15 ratio.....roughly.
With ZERO incentive to repeat dungeons, that means 4 out of 15 people will actually find the classes they need to finish the dungeon properly. Because there are not enough tanks to go around. So what you will see...UNLESS tanks just run dungeons out of the goodness of their heart there will be people who can't even fill out a group properly.
When we look at healers its not so bad, because some of the same base stats can be used for DPS and healing, so a dual role is more likely. Tanking though....requires a less DPS oriented armor, and also stats which emphasize survival over DPS. Not many people leveling are going to do this.
And those people who gravitate towards support roles will not specialize beyond that which would gimp them in solo. Zenimax you have got to be kidding me. For the love of God please turn on XP in dungeons, make group content rewarding. I cannot even find a tank all day today for groups, and frankly I see why.
You have purposely made grouping BAD.....and the sad thing is the dungeons and group play is actually well done. But its just pointless to do it, and you made it this way on purpose!
5
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ruzlb16_ESO✭✭✭Well, I've redone a lot of the dungeons because they're fun... guess that didn't feature in your math.3
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VlVEC✭✭✭How about a ratio of "[snip] on the forums:playing the game and enjoying yourself".
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_AlexD on 27 May 2014 01:18The beginning of the words is ALMSIVI. I give you this as Vivec.
Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec.
ヽ༼ຈ༽ل͜༼ຈ༽ﾉ2 -
Kaelis33✭✭How about a ratio of "[snip] on the forums:playing the game and enjoying yourself".
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]".
Was this constructive? I do think it was trolling, thank you for adding this valuable insight to the discussion.Edited by ZOS_AlexD on 27 May 2014 01:180 -
VlVEC✭✭✭
Implying your post was constructive.The beginning of the words is ALMSIVI. I give you this as Vivec.
Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec.
ヽ༼ຈ༽ل͜༼ຈ༽ﾉ0 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This is really a problem in most mmos I have plated since WoW. WoW taught most players, that leveling solo, is the fastest and easiest. It also taught everyone, that even if you are a tank or healer, you should be able to level solo as easily as everyone else. Since it is the easiest and the fastest.
So that is how everyone plays.1 -
Kaelis33✭✭ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »Well, I've redone a lot of the dungeons because they're fun... guess that didn't feature in your math.
Nope I already mentioned that its possible people will re run them for fun or for charity. I do it sometimes, but why in the world is group content the only play style not rewarded?
And the logic still stands that some people are going to have a almost impossible time completing low level dungeons. I sat in que today for like 5 hours or more waiting for a tank.0 -
Loco_Mofo✭✭✭✭✭Yes, there is a lot to improve on and this is one of them.
Dungeons should feel rewarding and there should be a reason to come back and redo them other than just for the fun of it. Grouping needs a lot of attention as I've been turned off due to frustrating experiences.0 -
Kaelis33✭✭
Yea it is, I brought a complaint, provided a well though out supporting argument for why the problem exists, and in the end I suggested a solution. For the betterment of the game.
But of course your post bombing here is far superior. We are all thankful for your input.0 -
Kaelis33✭✭Yes, there is a lot to improve on and this is one of them.
Dungeons should feel rewarding and there should be a reason to come back and redo them other than just for the fun of it. Grouping needs a lot of attention as I've been turned off due to frustrating experiences.
Exactly I just quit out of disgust, did not have alot of time left today to play...thought I could run one of the two dungeons I needed for level 20-25. Could not get a tank.
And the thing is there are people who like to play support roles and group but they are totally being neglected and and made to play differently to progress. There are a few hard-cores who will from time to time repeat a dungeon but they are not that many.
And really in all MMOs there is a core of group oriented peeps who usually do the tanking and healing, and they can usually help out everyone get through the dungeons enough to get what they need. A lot of people who are not group oriented, usually DPS ( but not always for sure), could care less to run a dungeon multiple times. So it all balances out better.....I see it getting really ugly for this game fast though.
Especially for leveling, anyone group oriented is going to plow to max level expecting more end game grouping, they will just run a dungeon for the skill point and thats it. There probably will not be enough people willing just to run something for the hell of it. I guess all lower level dungeons will be just a high level guildly running lowbies through.
This is kinda of a krappy situation.1 -
Reenlister✭✭✭well, as I have asaid many times I be a tank. I don't think much of it anymore, and as ye said, to be a good tank here right now, yer pretty much gimped. Armor is ridiculous, and me weapon is just not cutting it being a sword. Its virtually a nightmare to go out on me own now, more work than fun. I don't have any plans to go back and learn to be a magiky, so I reckon I am now stuck in limbo, there just aint no call fer us old timey armor wearing sword swinging people now...1
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Take into account how xp and loot is rewarded for dps, tanks take it up the rear even more. Glad I chose to play a class the game can't be played without, yet I'm getting backdoor plowed because of it.0 -
Paralyse✭✭✭✭✭You don't need a tank.Paralyse, Sanguine's Tester - Enjoying ESO since beta. Trial clears: vSS HM, Crag HM's, vRG Oax HM, vMoL DD, vKA HM, vCR+1, vAS IR, vDSR, vSE0 -
Kaelis33✭✭paralysecub18_ESO wrote: »You don't need a tank.
mmm I don't know, you really do. Just like you need a healer. Just like the dungeon finder looks for exactly that. Using the dungeon finder to fill out a group with no tank....is asking for a repair bill, a 2 hour slog, and probably some "disconnects".
The problem is not the content its the lack of reward for doing the content. Grouping in this game is actually quite strong. It's just pointless to do.
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Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wish we could use the Group Finder tool for lower level dungeons. I have missed a couple and they are no longer in Group Finder. I would be happy to tank those but I can't group for them. I will put out a message in guild chat from time to time, but nobody ever takes me up on the offer. Maybe they don't want a higher-level player as their tank? Don't know. I just soloed Banished Cells at Level 41, which was possible, but an irritating grind. I don't want to solo a group dungeon! I want to do it in a group. But it is so difficult to group for dungeons you missed.
And it is not just for the Skill Point. I am a completionist. I am all OCD about doing all the quests and content.
I also wish we could cross-faction group for dungeons. We can do the other factions' dungeons, so why not let us group with friends in other factions? It would triple the number of people to group with. Call it a truce in the Alliance War because everyone agrees that the threat posed by this dungeon is too big to not cooperate.2 -
Kaelis33✭✭I can tell you that the daggerfall alliance has it much easier when it comes to groups. I was leveling two toons simultaneously and when I could not find a group on my sorc I popped over to the daggerfall alliance and it was near instant with my templar, for healer.
So not sure what that means in the end. But certainly the way grouping is being done at the moment cannot be their idea of correct.0 -
demendred✭✭✭✭If you're talking about group dungeons, I rather find it fun. And, it makes you work as a healer. Public ones are cool too, sans bots.All good Nords goto Sto'Vo'Kor.0 -
So in Zenimax's infinite wisdom they decided to make repeating a dungeon a complete and utter waste of time. Whilst leveling for sure, there is no XP gain, you get the same blue items you'll level out of anyways. And likely you'll get a repair bill that, depending on how bad the group is, might not even be compensated with loot selling.
So what does this do to the game? Well if we think the ratio to tanks is about 1 to 15 (and to be honest while leveling, no one is going to gimp themselves with a tank build....after all you can't group and earn XP). So 1 to 15 ratio.....roughly.
With ZERO incentive to repeat dungeons, that means 4 out of 15 people will actually find the classes they need to finish the dungeon properly. Because there are not enough tanks to go around. So what you will see...UNLESS tanks just run dungeons out of the goodness of their heart there will be people who can't even fill out a group properly.
When we look at healers its not so bad, because some of the same base stats can be used for DPS and healing, so a dual role is more likely. Tanking though....requires a less DPS oriented armor, and also stats which emphasize survival over DPS. Not many people leveling are going to do this.
And those people who gravitate towards support roles will not specialize beyond that which would gimp them in solo. Zenimax you have got to be kidding me. For the love of God please turn on XP in dungeons, make group content rewarding. I cannot even find a tank all day today for groups, and frankly I see why.
You have purposely made grouping BAD.....and the sad thing is the dungeons and group play is actually well done. But its just pointless to do it, and you made it this way on purpose!
You say this as if it is a problem only ESO has... I played a WoW warrior for a few months (shortly after BC release). Ever time I wanted to do an instance past lvl 20 I had to respec prot, or risk getting flamed/kicked from my group. I then had to respec to go back to leveling. I did all of this on a low pop server that took upwards of 3 hours to find a group on. Often id resepec just as we got a group together after hours of waiting to have someone *** off and be left with a double respec bill. Combine that with that fact that every single greedy *** hunter needed anything remotely useful to them "because its a hunter weapon". If we did the instance w/o any hiccups, I was almost always in the negative. I did every single 5 man instance in that game up to lvl 67, even the pre BC ones, which were worthless because of BC quest loot. (all uphill both ways in 30 below weather, mind you)
The beauty of eso is you don't have to respec every time you want to change the way your character plays. Infact, here is a guide on how to do dps, tank, and healer on the same character w/o respecing. http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/trinity-blade-a-nightblade-compilation-build/
If you only play this game to chase carrots at the end of a stick. Im sorry m8... you have to have some sort of mental deficiency. There has to be something wrong with you to feel satisfaction killing the same thing over and over again day after day with the hope some magical trinket will drop. There really is more to life.
The devs are putting massive amounts of man hours into creating VO and well written quest objectives for the players to enjoy. This is content on a level no other MMO even comes close to. But...every1 is skipping it to kill the same boss in spindleclutch? Then you go and complain there's nothing to do? Wot... (maybe I'm making an assumption here, but you display a similar mentality to those doing this in your post.)
Honestly, many people enjoy this game as it is, and the direction its heading. This is a very refreshing take on an MMO. I don't see why you think the devs would compromise their vision and design to pander to you spoiled MMO brats and give you every little cookie cutter MMO feature you request. Why are you trying to change a game your supposedly unsubbing from? (to go play wildstar, obviously, a hur der!)
I wish ZOS could unsub from you.1 -
ErykGrimm✭✭✭Tanking is different in ESO than any other MMO I have played. If you try to only specialize in survival, your doing it wrong. Both my tanks have an aoe dps bar and a tanky/single target bar. Sword and shield for bosses and then substitute whatever secondary weapon you want. I play with 5 heavy and 2 light and I can dps just fine and when the group needs me to lock down a boss I can do that too.you have to be more adaptive in ESO than other games as far as tanking goes. Its a little more challenging at first, but so much more fun when you get thw hang of it. Tanks have always been a hot commodity in MMOs. Its no different in that regard in this game.0 -
Kaelis33✭✭Well in every MMO tanks and to a lesser extent healers are in demand. The difference is in WOW people have an incentive to run a dungeon again, So the few tanks that are there will do multiple runs for loot and xp.
In this game running dungeons stunts your progress. If you are interested in leveling your toon a trip to the dungeon is a pure waste of time. ESO has only made the problem way worse with taking any kind of XP gain. It also is unfairly leveled only at dungeon running. Grinding mobs a few feet from the dungeon entrance can be done all day long, and yields XP.
I don't know what Zenimax's problem is but this make no sense and is really a deal breaker for me at the moment. I play MMOs to cooperatively play with other people. Public dungeons and world bosses are hardly that....mostly people steam rolling through and its entirely possible to just run to the end and show up right as 10 people kill the last boss.
4 man dungeons are the only challenging group content that requires some degree of coordination and teamwork. And it has all of the reward associated with it stripped away.
Make no sense and it is just plain wrong.2 -
ErykGrimm✭✭✭Well in every MMO tanks and to a lesser extent healers are in demand. The difference is in WOW people have an incentive to run a dungeon again, So the few tanks that are there will do multiple runs for loot and xp.
In this game running dungeons stunts your progress. If you are interested in leveling your toon a trip to the dungeon is a pure waste of time. ESO has only made the problem way worse with taking any kind of XP gain. It also is unfairly leveled only at dungeon running. Grinding mobs a few feet from the dungeon entrance can be done all day long, and yields XP.
I don't know what Zenimax's problem is but this make no sense and is really a deal breaker for me at the moment. I play MMOs to cooperatively play with other people. Public dungeons and world bosses are hardly that....mostly people steam rolling through and its entirely possible to just run to the end and show up right as 10 people kill the last boss.
4 man dungeons are the only challenging group content that requires some degree of coordination and teamwork. And it has all of the reward associated with it stripped away.
Make no sense and it is just plain wrong.
Honestly, I would wager that xp for group dungeons will be buffed. It would be nice to have more incentive to re-run dungeons. I likely wouldn't bother running dungeons over again on my lower level tank. Its too easy to out level the rewards from the dungeons. On the higher level dungeons, however, it would be really nice to have a boost to their xp.0 -
Loco_Mofo✭✭✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
I also wish we could cross-faction group for dungeons. We can do the other factions' dungeons, so why not let us group with friends in other factions? It would triple the number of people to group with. Call it a truce in the Alliance War because everyone agrees that the threat posed by this dungeon is too big to not cooperate.
That's actually a great suggestion.1 -
mips_winnt✭✭✭I played a WoW warrior for a few months (shortly after BC release). Ever time I wanted to do an instance past lvl 20 I had to respec prot, or risk getting flamed/kicked from my group.
WoW Solved that problem by adding both dual specs and easy on the fly (and cheap) respecs. The only downside is lugging around 2 sets of gear (which isn't that big of a deal in WoW).
Finding groups in WoW these days is a easy as it can be, whether doing 5 mans, raids or PvP.
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I gotta say the xp from the runs were my favorite peice of going through, once done it was for fun and charity as mentioned above that brought me back. I hear at end game its more worth it to rerun for vet gear. Im eager, ;D0 -
Dagoth_Rac wrote: »I wish we could use the Group Finder tool for lower level dungeons. I have missed a couple and they are no longer in Group Finder. I would be happy to tank those but I can't group for them. I will put out a message in guild chat from time to time, but nobody ever takes me up on the offer. Maybe they don't want a higher-level player as their tank? Don't know. I just soloed Banished Cells at Level 41, which was possible, but an irritating grind. I don't want to solo a group dungeon! I want to do it in a group. But it is so difficult to group for dungeons you missed.
And it is not just for the Skill Point. I am a completionist. I am all OCD about doing all the quests and content.
I also wish we could cross-faction group for dungeons. We can do the other factions' dungeons, so why not let us group with friends in other factions? It would triple the number of people to group with. Call it a truce in the Alliance War because everyone agrees that the threat posed by this dungeon is too big to not cooperate.
I pretty much loved everything you said.0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭1-50 DOESNT Need much incentive to run the dungeons. They GIVE you gear running the dungeon you can deconstruct. Some of it might actually be useful like jewelry but for the most part 1-50 ANYTHING You get you out level quite fast.
Green gear is good for 2 levels
Blue for 4 levels
Other than that its REALLY not that important at all and neither would be any incentive.
What I WOULD like to see is a "Combination" Newbs grouped with Vets working together at "equal" level.
Newbs NEED group memebers and Vets really don't have anything else better to do. But this would be hard to balance properly but would serve the game well.0 -
ruzlb16_ESO✭✭✭I think the lack of tanks is more of a lowbie problem anyway tbh. By Vet level, everyone has 200-odd skill points and throwing 10 into sword and board for an off-spec tank roll isn't a problem - hanging out in Craglorn last night, we had 3 people in a group of 4 who could tank if needed; there's not a particularly bad problem from maybe level 40 onward. I know quite a few Vet players who generally have 10+ points sat in reserve anyway.
On top of this, early dungeons really don't need a tank - and you can get by without a healer for the most part, too, provided people have some self-heals and basic situational awareness (of the 'don't stand in fire' kind that you're supposed to pick up around level 5). Vet dungeons are really the point where the trinity starts to take over - by which point, many players have either tank or healer abilities alongside their DPS skills.
I think one thing it does highlight is that the dungeon finder is pretty weak; in fact, most of the traditional MMO player interface screens are fairly dire.0 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I repeatedly grinded Veteran Spindle Clutch and got 80% of a Vet Rank in about an hour and a half.
I know you're talking mostly about low level dungeons, but you said "especially" while leveling, indicating that you think this is true for VR dungeons as well.
It isn't.0