And the most ridiculous thing about this game is ........

GrimMauKin

Despite all the myriad of bugs I've had to endure, the thing I most hate about ESO, the thing I first commented on and the thing that's brought me closest to cancelling my subscription (on numerous occasions) isn't a bug at all, apparently it's by design, and it's the bizarre range mechanic of the game.

I've just endured another combat session where I've been hit whilst not just out of range, but several times out of range, by a foe a considerable distance away at the top of a flight of stairs. I've been hit continually whilst sprinting away from a slow moving foe I'd have already considered myself to be well out of range of before starting to run.

In other situations I've seen someone bitten by a sable cat that was a whole body length away, hits that have landed despite being a weapon's length away and a spike trap that hit someone standing a good five feet away and I've moved to the side and even behind strikes but still be hit,

The load screens often state that running away is a valid tactic, but the game mechanic allows you to be pummelled to a pulp from a distance whilst doing so; for the vast majority of instances running away is suicide.

I really don't understand the reasoning behind this mechanic, as well as being incredibly frustrating and unrealistic it removes a whole key element of combat (positioning, movement, kiting, flanking, weapon range/choice etc.) from a combat based game.

Why is EOS designed like this?

Laura

things like that are usually latency compensation issues sort of like how in FPS you will die behind a wall because while you didn't see someone shoot you, they saw that they shot you and the server agrees with there client

because there is quite a delay in sending, recieving, and then sending information again between multiple clients the server has to sort of "look into the future" and do its best guess. Sometimes those guesses are poor and a lot of the time the game will be designed around these flaws.

That is why we have seen Everquest (WoW) combat for so many years and only recently started seeing some action combat in MMOs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQPVoVaPOQU

RockSolidWiff

With some abilities it appears range is determined at the start, then they still hit even if you move out of range. I am fairly sure I have seen this happen.
I have also seen moving to the side of the red zone for a powerful ability and still getting hit even though you appeared to be well outside the zone.
I am not seeing lag at these times. The move / hit are far enough apart in human time scale I would not guess that it was a server / client issue but part of the game programming.
I would agree, I have found running away to be a very poor tactic, but it could also be I wait too long.

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO

Thought this was ridiculous from day one.

What game does this? None, that I can think of.

For my character it was actually an advantage, to be able to stand outside of the red AoE circles and still connect with my maul. From 12-15 feet away.

Another issue was the fact that even if I got out of the way of an AoE cone, it sometimes still found reason to slam me with damage. Their red circles/cones were not precise. And the timing of everything was completely out of sync.

Whatever the case, combat was just too sloppy for me. Found myself blaming game dysfunction for my death far too often.

nerevarine1138

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO wrote: »

Thought this was ridiculous from day one.

What game does this? None, that I can think of.

Have you never played an online game? Post-lag hits are a very normal occurrence. I don't know how this could be surprising.

Eivar

it seems to me this is a problem with the base code, like the server and client don't sync before they allow attacks to fire off, the server thinks you're in range so attacks hit you, but your client says you're out of range so you wouldn't be able to fire back if you tried.

Lucifer108

Agree with the OP, this mechanic is plain silly and it has nothing to do with lag.

ZiRM

It's designed like that because of poor designing?
Seriously though it ridiculous, will it get fixed? We still have bugs, glitches and poorly implemented designs that have been being reported etc. from beta so...

Laura

NiRN wrote: »

It's designed like that because of poor designing?
Seriously though it ridiculous, will it get fixed? We still have bugs, glitches and poorly implemented designs that have been being reported etc. from beta so...

You pay monthly for forum access

BGK

It wouldn't be the first time i'd get hit by a AoE attack despite having ninja rolled out of the big red circle.
Kinda lame if you ask me, and defeat the purpose of the whole dodge mechanic:
Either you have plenty of time to get out and you can casually walk out of the danger zone, or you have only a fraction of second to get out so you ninja roll away... only to realize the server didn't acknowledge your l33t escape.

phairdon

Laura wrote: »

things like that are usually latency compensation issues sort of like how in FPS you will die behind a wall because while you didn't see someone shoot you, they saw that they shot you and the server agrees with there client

because there is quite a delay in sending, recieving, and then sending information again between multiple clients the server has to sort of "look into the future" and do its best guess. Sometimes those guesses are poor and a lot of the time the game will be designed around these flaws.

That is why we have seen Everquest (WoW) combat for so many years and only recently started seeing some action combat in MMOs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQPVoVaPOQU

Yeah. Had the latency problem with staff bash. Hit the enemy npc, nothing happens, npc stands there looking at you before flying through the air 10 seconds later.

ers101284b14_ESO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0bMV6BVJSU

Asava

Eivar wrote: »

it seems to me this is a problem with the base code, like the server and client don't sync before they allow attacks to fire off, the server thinks you're in range so attacks hit you, but your client says you're out of range so you wouldn't be able to fire back if you tried.

It's actually the way the game is coded. It was explained in great detail by DAoC devs. You go to use an ability, it checks to verify the target is in range, animation starts and ability fires. They had people complain that spells/archers were hitting them after they moved out of LoS/range. So the devs tried a second check after the animation/ability firing. It was way more problematic and easily exploited by those with faster pc/isp connections. They quickly reverted it back because half the ranged players couldn't get a spell/arrow to land on target.

SFBryan18

I agree, the hit detection is way too hard to avoid. I've often tried running away from enemies who would chase me, then charge for a special, and even though I appear to be a good 10 feet away, they still get to hit me. I hate this type of hit detection. First, it more resembles an MMO than TES, which is total BS. Second, it totally breaks immersion. And third, it makes evading your enemies attacks near impossible. Like when the scamp shoots a heat seeking fireball that can still hit you even when you roll. And what's the deal with the stamina cost of rolling? They barely work and they use so much stamina! I mean, the attacks already have autolock, did you really have to make it so hard to get away? There is some lag that comes into the picture, but I think the general mechanics of the hit detection is way too arcade style. In TES, you actually had to aim, but in this game, all you have to do is look at them and press a button. I agree, this is one of the worst decisions made for this game.

Purple_Prophet

Although it is annoying, basically ever MMO I've played has had this. Contact based dmg MMO's are non-existent almost.

tanthil

[Moderator note: removed suspicious link]

I run this game with a H100i 120gb SSD with watcoolers on the graphics display and i have never seen these issues

GrimMauKin

I understand there are issues with lag and mechanisms to counter this, for me though the key flaw is the exaggerated range that you can be hit from; this isn't really about sidestepping a blow and still getting hit, it's about getting hit from 30 feet away by someone with a dagger and such like.

Movement and positioning is a key tactic in combat, but in ESO you're in effect, forced to always be in range and hittable; on the odd occasion where you are able to get out of range the MOBs' health goes back up to 100% and it returns to the spawn point.

It gets worse with groups of MOB as, irrespective of placement, you tend to get hit by all of the continually.

Eivar

Asava wrote: »

Eivar wrote: »

it seems to me this is a problem with the base code, like the server and client don't sync before they allow attacks to fire off, the server thinks you're in range so attacks hit you, but your client says you're out of range so you wouldn't be able to fire back if you tried.

It's actually the way the game is coded. It was explained in great detail by DAoC devs. You go to use an ability, it checks to verify the target is in range, animation starts and ability fires. They had people complain that spells/archers were hitting them after they moved out of LoS/range. So the devs tried a second check after the animation/ability firing. It was way more problematic and easily exploited by those with faster pc/isp connections. They quickly reverted it back because half the ranged players couldn't get a spell/arrow to land on target.

So i was right essentially, neato, good guess me lol. If ESO is like DAoC that would explain it, though other mmos i've played havn't had this problem (unless lagged drastically) so there is obviously a better way to do it, maybe something along the lines of the client always transmitting your poistion to the server, for location and distance verification........i assume that would add more lag though, time to bribe a wow dev to spill the codebeans! lol

Izatar

Laura's explanation is correct! If you disagree with this, then it is you who is ignorant. This game is fundamentally different from other games! It synchronizes thousands of people around the world at once. The other games you may be thinking of do not do this; only MMOs like World of Warcraft and a few others attempt to do this.
No, you do not have a counter example. You might think you do, but you do not. There is a fundamental reason the game has latency and synchronizing issues of this nature, and the fact that it works at all is an engineering marvel.
Are you a network systems programmer? No? Then accept that you are just confused.

Anex

I was gonna say the most ridiculous thing about this game is the players.

Yes it has bugs, yes they annoy me too! I'm a nightblade and often I find myself unable to attack in a fight and die because of it (escape! escape!). I have run into quests where I can't progress, also annoying. I can't even play right now during my primary play time because the server is down.

However, I still really like the game. I am aware that they are working on fixing things, this isn't my first MMO. I've been playing them since 2001 long before WoW (which everyone seems to like to compare things to). I even played WoW from the first month and it wasn't without its problems either.

People want to complain about everything, call the game crap and spit on it. It isn't without it's problems, but it's got a good idea going that CAN be improved upon and corrected with time. Sure, there were some major embarrassing mistakes with this release that prove that even though they were making a MMO they didn't have many people who understood them (though maybe this is also part of what makes ESO interesting and fresh). Having a trusted client, also not helpful (mainly in regards to bots), but it does make things less laggy. And despite all this, it STILL was not as broken as Vanguard was on release (ugh that was so bad).

So the most ridiculous thing in this game is the players and their expectations for everything to be perfect. While I believe that the game maybe should have had the release pushed back to address some issues, they appear to be working on it at least and it improves as time goes on. It's been out for about two months, there's still time.

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO

dastone wrote: »

Mmm I read "waaaaaaaa I got killed in game that never would have happened in wow waaaaaaa this game ant like wow"

These forums are ruined by crying 10 year olds

This game is grounding breaking and amazing we don't need to read every 10 year old crying that he can't kill all by shooting a fire ball out of is butt like he can in wow

That was so amazingly insightful & helpful to a conversation directly concerned with a problem that's been happening with mobs since beta.

-1

Teevesnacks

I'm starting to notice npc's that do uppercut still getting me even though I block mid swing >.>

WilliamTee

Lies!

The most ridiculous thing in this game is clearly Brackenleaf's voice!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnW4CAgKAP4

canghai

i heard wildstar hired exterminators and will be bug free at launch

Pewpie

You shouldn't run away in combat to get away from hits though... If you wish to avoid a specific attack, just block. (If you can get it up cuz of latency issues :P) I guess the system is built around block. If it was easier to dodge attacks and get away from 100% damage by rolling around what kind of idiot would ever use block?

Rolling is for getting out of aoe damage, not attacks directed at you specifically. I don't believe it was ever designed to be a way to avoid normal attacks... and if it was, i guess they failed :P

This particular thing might be the issue with the NB cloak ability too... when you enter cloak, half the times you get revealed instantly, probably because some single target ability from a NPC hits you when your stealthed, that should have been aborted when you went into cloak.

Pewpie

WilliamTee wrote: »

Lies!

The most ridiculous thing in this game is clearly Brackenleaf's voice!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnW4CAgKAP4

Haha yeah, I was also WTF! when i ran that quest.

BGK

Pewpie wrote: »

You shouldn't run away in combat to get away from hits though... If you wish to avoid a specific attack, just block. (If you can get it up cuz of latency issues :P) I guess the system is built around block. If it was easier to dodge attacks and get away from 100% damage by rolling around what kind of idiot would ever use block?

Tanks, as intended and lore friendly.
Blocking this boss 4 meters long battle axe with my healer wooden staff seems odd, better step away from the swing.

dbennett707cub18_ESO

canghai wrote: »

i heard wildstar hired exterminators and will be bug free at launch

unfortunately for wildstar, its also fun game free as well. I wanted it to be good as much as any hardcore fanboi, but after getting into beta in December, I couldn't even force myself to login by mid January.

Beretic

The most rediculous thing ive experienced in this game has got to be spending the time creating and leveling a NB. Getting it to VR. not questioning why I felt so underpowered and squishy. (Pact MA 5pc/2 LA w/dual wield and bow) Then, trying to expience mor VR content get wreckdd. over and over and over because i didnt combat roll once or block once. when DKs or Sorcs can pretty much solo everything. Then I come on to the forums and find out that I spent my time investing on a broken class tbat got nerphed instead off buffed. Seriously, the dev team beat my gimp ass down.

Dont care doe, rollin with that 7pc LA Destro/Restro Sneakmonster Support. Aaaawwwwhhh yeuh (fyi, ruined my enjoyment for this game. if i wanted to make a caster dps i would of rolled a sorc.)

Phantorang

An ingame latency meter would help alot to calculate how to manage combat, and other ingame stuff.

Have they given us one? If not, why? Its ridiculous, never have I played an MMO without a Latency meter. Is it to hide the bad overseas latency? I think so.

ArcaneBlue

and here I thought I was just bad at dodging attacks or enemies in this game have super long melee reach or something. kind of relieved to find out that I'm not the only one.