So when are you buffing Daedric Summon damage (like Dark Shades)?

Crescent

The Familiar does terrible sustained damage outside of dying detonation, and so does the Twilight Matriarch.

It's kind of hilarious that Dark Shades provide more damage, utility (15% damage reduction), and don't occupy 2 skill slots.

Yeah, they last 20 seconds but by this point I'd take that as well considering each summon handicaps magicka by 10%, and the cost of a summon is 680 magicka while dark shades is 1/3 of that cost. And the shade itself is more survivable than the twilight matriarch.

Lynx7386

That depends, will dark shades be made a toggle instead of a very short-lived summon?

Also, your daedra provide just as much utility. A heal from the matriarch, magicka regeneration from the restoring twilight, daze/knockdown from the clannfear, or an on demand nuke from the unstable familiar. They also have synergy with your other conjuring abilities, like increased damage while you have conjured ward up (and the conjured ward protects them) - shades dont interact with other nightblade abilities that way.

Crescent

Lynx7386 wrote: »

That depends, will dark shades be made a toggle instead of a very short-lived summon?

Also, your daedra provide just as much utility. A heal from the matriarch, magicka regeneration from the restoring twilight, daze/knockdown from the clannfear, or an on demand nuke from the unstable familiar. They also have synergy with your other conjuring abilities, like increased damage while you have conjured ward up (and the conjured ward protects them) - shades dont interact with other nightblade abilities that way.

LOL, a 30 sec cd channeled heal from a defective AI matriarch that only activates if you cross the 35% hp threshold and is unreliable (it often fails to activate).

The kncokdown from the clannfer is not controlable, it does it when it wants to so the knockdown is often wasted.

And if you're using conjured ward you're doing it wrong if you waste a skill slot to buff pet attack by 30%.

30% of negligible damage is still negligible damage. It's like saying boosting a 100 damage attack by 30% is great for a 30 point boost, and in the case of summons they do even less damage than that with their attacks.

And the toggle is not free. It's a 10% max magicka reduction. I don't think you understand what a massive cut that is.

Lynx7386

At 2000 magicka, it's 200 constant cost to you. Shades cost half again that much. They also cannot hold aggro, which sorc pets are renowned for.

Crescent

And so do the rest of the spells the sorcerer is using ACTIVELY.

Which means the critical surge that cost you 1/3 of your mana pool suddenly costs you half of it and then chaining with storm form leaves you pretty low on magicka.

And it's 200 magicka for a single summon. For 2 summons it's 400. Dark Shades actually do more damage than both summons together.

Lynx7386

So, what, while you have your summon out and waste all your magicka on spells, you think the nightblade isnt casting anything either? Maybe the real issue here is that you need to learn some resource management.

Stx

Shades damage isnt very good... and they dont hold aggro at all. Not sure you really want to compare them

Crescent

Lynx7386 wrote: »

So, what, while you have your summon out and waste all your magicka on spells, you think the nightblade isnt casting anything either? Maybe the real issue here is that you need to learn some resource management.

Maybe what you need to learn is not every class has Siphoning Strikes to keep resources up indefinitely as a melee build.

The uptime of NB resources with Siphoning Strikes far outpaces every other resource regen, especially after the change to the shadow line passive.

And no Dark Conversion isn't comparable, considering only CASTERS can use it and sorcereres are not merely CASTERS despite your attempts to pigeonhole the class into a crystal shard spam bot.

Stx wrote: »

Shades damage isnt very good... and they dont hold aggro at all. Not sure you really want to compare them

Neither do the summons. In fact the only summon of mine that routinely gets attacked is the one that dies in a single uppercut from a mob.

And shades damage was buffed to be good in 1.1

Your 2 shades do the damage of two summons for a single button, 1/3 the cost, and with the much better benefit of 15% damage reduction that works alongside shocking damage's concussion.

NordJitsu

Daedric Summoning sucks.

Its is, unequivocally, without a doubt, the worst skill line in the game.

Its trash. Really, I promise.

You like your pets? Cool. Just know that you're gimping yourself. Serious groups will not accept you into Trials or PvP raids if you have those things out.

Daedric Summoning needs massive buffs. The pets need more health and more damage.

AND THEY SHOULD ONLY COST ONE HOT BAR SLOT!!!!

Its down right ridiculous that the worst skills in the game take up twice as much skill slot space.

I don't even care if you make them timed duration instead of toggels. Do what you have to do so that they don't take double the skill slots.

And fix the AI!!!!!!

They need to stealth when I stealth or they can never be used in PvP. They should not attack unless I attack. I should have some way to direct their attacks. And they should never ever under ANY circumstances attack an enemy that is under an effect that is broken by damage (such as Rune Prison.)

NordJitsu

Oh, and lets not forget that the summoned Shade is INVINCIBLE and cannot be killed by players.

Samadhi

NordJitsu wrote: »

Oh, and lets not forget that the summoned Shade is INVINCIBLE and cannot be killed by players.

Probably because the only thing it is good for in PvP is serving as a comical distraction.

Crescent

My Twilight Matriarch left me fighting solo an elite mob because there was an archery range nearby and it decided to attack the immortal bulls eye object indefinitely while I was left to deal with the elite mob.

You would think at the very least they'd design an AI to attack what you are attacking and to not attack targets affected by CC.

And you'd expect a 680 magicka cost pet to attack a mob for more than 5% of the mob's health per attack. But nope, maybe 3% of a mob's HP per attack tops.

khele23eb17_ESO

Oh please, the shades are nothing more than buggy DoTs with travel time doing crap damage.

Lord_Hev

Guys, the solution is super-simple. In-fact, it's glaring... TOGGLE SUMMONS CANNOT BE BALANCED LOL.


You cannot have a perma-summon and expect it to be useful. Otherwise, it's overpowered. So... how do we remedy this?


Remove the toggle. Bingo. Yes. WHY? Because.


Now, as a set-duration(Like the Storm Atronach) NOW they have room to balance with. Different possibilities. HOW? Because if your summon is on a timer, there's room to play with in regards to just how threatening your summon should be.


Again, look at the Storm Atronach. THAT is a summon. And, it is truest to conjuration as per the rest of the TES games. Ok? Now... take the ultimate Storm Atronach ability... ok... Now, just tone it down a bit. Consider that for a second.


With your summons on a timer, not only do you *not* have to occupy both of your skill-bars... but they also become TACTICAL. As set-durations, you have to decide WHEN it is best to summon them. Do you need to accomplish a quick zerg? OR, are you fighting a tanky boss, and you might need your summon later in the fight? DECISIONS!


Let's break it down even more.


Why do the current summons that are toggle have to suck? Because. Imagine if they were threatening. Imagine. Then we'd have insta-win Sorcerers that can just waltz into any battle with their lolwin minions all ready to go. This is why they have to be weak... and take up skill-slots.


IT DOESN'T WORK.


Now, lets consider if these summons were set-duration? Let's say, the Clannfear functioned like it did in TES Oblivion. Lets say, that it had a base duration of 25 seconds? And lets also say, it is expensive to cast + a cast-time. Now, we have room to play with in terms of balancing! Now, we can have the Clannfear dishing out DPS. Because 1.) You have to decide when to summon them. 2.) They have a cast-time and 3.) They are on a timer before having to recast if the battle prolongs. Thus, ZOS has more freedom with their combat prowess and overall threat-level.


Compared to the gimped versions we have now. Throw them on a toggle, and what do we get? Clannfear that cannot do it's charge. Twilight that cannot do their disorientating spin attack. Because. They are toggle and loleasycast and forget.



The summons need to be revamped. Again, take the Storm Atronach, and then tone him down. That's what can be done with a summon on a timer. If they are set-duration, then they can be THREATENING and USEFUL. Because they are utility. And they require maintenance & tactical deployment. VS. loleasycastandforget toggle. With toggle, they HAVE to be weak and useless.


All summons need to be on a timer, and balanced to be deployed tactically as REAL THREATS.










Oh, and add summonable Dremora Lords. Thanks.

Shaun98ca2

I imagine Pets AI is a work in progress. But they should absolutely be turned into short cast pets prob 15 sec duration so its long enough to be useful but also short enough that recasting sucks. I would say a 2 second cast.

gurugeorgey

I'd hate to have only duration pets. I like having a toggle pet, I don't have to worry about it, it just does its thing taking aggro for me - a not inconsiderable utility when soloing.

I don't find the Daedric line that weak, Storm Atronach is great for bosses and oh-*** moments, Curse is pretty good, and some of the passives are nice.

Haven't gotten much into grouping or PvP yet, so I guess it's possible my feelings might change, but as a casual player, it's all pretty good.

Lord_Hev

gurugeorgey wrote: »

I'd hate to have only duration pets. I like having a toggle pet, I don't have to worry about it, it just does its thing taking aggro for me - a not inconsiderable utility when soloing.

I don't find the Daedric line that weak, Storm Atronach is great for bosses and oh-*** moments, Curse is pretty good, and some of the passives are nice.

Haven't gotten much into grouping or PvP yet, so I guess it's possible my feelings might change, but as a casual player, it's all pretty good.

Your opinion will change. Because toggles in VR are useless. You cannot have useful toggles. Otherwise, they are broken overpowered. Set-duration is the most balanced method. They need to be DPS threatening minions, and they need to have time limitations and effort to maintain. They shouldn't be cuddly harmless pets that you cast-and-forget to distract. They should be like the Storm Atronach, bad-ass Daedric monsters. The summoning of one should instill a genuine concern to your enemy. They need to be set-duration in order to be balanced and useful.

Crescent

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I imagine Pets AI is a work in progress. But they should absolutely be turned into short cast pets prob 15 sec duration so its long enough to be useful but also short enough that recasting sucks. I would say a 2 second cast.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

gurugeorgey wrote: »

I'd hate to have only duration pets. I like having a toggle pet, I don't have to worry about it, it just does its thing taking aggro for me - a not inconsiderable utility when soloing.

I don't find the Daedric line that weak, Storm Atronach is great for bosses and oh-*** moments, Curse is pretty good, and some of the passives are nice.

Haven't gotten much into grouping or PvP yet, so I guess it's possible my feelings might change, but as a casual player, it's all pretty good.

Your opinion will change. Because toggles in VR are useless. You cannot have useful toggles. Otherwise, they are broken overpowered. Set-duration is the most balanced method. They need to be DPS threatening minions, and they need to have time limitations and effort to maintain. They shouldn't be cuddly harmless pets that you cast-and-forget to distract. They should be like the Storm Atronach, bad-ass Daedric monsters. The summoning of one should instill a genuine concern to your enemy. They need to be set-duration in order to be balanced and useful.

Should take effort to maintain? My Twilight Matriarch dies usually withing 5-6 seconds in a fight of a 3 mob pack because she is prioritized over even the familiar for some reason, and her HP is so tiny that if you'll sneeze at her she'll desummon.

So in a regular fight she isn't even a regular permanent toggle. I have to rez her 2-3 times in packs of 3+ mobs with a whopping 2 second cast and 600+ magicka cost.

If you're going to make them temporary the skills better be instant and cost much less mana on top of giving the summons much greater HP so they actually last something longer than 5-6 seconds in any fight.

In dungeons the damn summons are not used because they die almost instantly to any boss attack.

Lord_Hev

Crescent wrote: »

Should take effort to maintain? My Twilight Matriarch dies usually withing 5-6 seconds in a fight of a 3 mob pack because she is prioritized over even the familiar for some reason, and her HP is so tiny that if you'll sneeze at her she'll desummon.

So in a regular fight she isn't even a regular permanent toggle. I have to rez her 2-3 times in packs of 3+ mobs with a whopping 2 second cast and 600+ magicka cost.

If you're going to make them temporary the skills better be instant and cost much less mana on top of giving the summons much greater HP so they actually last something longer than 5-6 seconds in any fight.

In dungeons the damn summons are not used because they die almost instantly to any boss attack.

Ok... I'm not sure if you are reinforcing my point... or... refuting it? No duh the Twilight sucks... Because she's balanced as a TOGGLE.


So, yes. Set-duration. Require maintenance and strategic placement = Threatening yet balanced summon. Rather than toggles that have to be weak for balance.


To make the Twilight in your example more useful and THREATENING. She needs to be set-duration. She cannot be a toggle. By design of balance, Toggles HAVE to be weak, which is stupidly broken. So, make it a costly temporary summon that you need to plan when to summon for most mileage is balanced by the fact that she is a genuine concern to your enemies. A viable weapon. And in her unique case, a great support unit.

Set-duration summons are the best for balanced game-play.

Dekkameron

I was surprised when i first played ESO that the daedric creatures were NOT temporary, as in other ES games they were.

Crescent

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Crescent wrote: »

Should take effort to maintain? My Twilight Matriarch dies usually withing 5-6 seconds in a fight of a 3 mob pack because she is prioritized over even the familiar for some reason, and her HP is so tiny that if you'll sneeze at her she'll desummon.

So in a regular fight she isn't even a regular permanent toggle. I have to rez her 2-3 times in packs of 3+ mobs with a whopping 2 second cast and 600+ magicka cost.

If you're going to make them temporary the skills better be instant and cost much less mana on top of giving the summons much greater HP so they actually last something longer than 5-6 seconds in any fight.

In dungeons the damn summons are not used because they die almost instantly to any boss attack.

Ok... I'm not sure if you are reinforcing my point... or... refuting it? No duh the Twilight sucks... Because she's balanced as a TOGGLE.


So, yes. Set-duration. Require maintenance and strategic placement = Threatening yet balanced summon. Rather than toggles that have to be weak for balance.


To make the Twilight in your example more useful and THREATENING. She needs to be set-duration. She cannot be a toggle. By design of balance, Toggles HAVE to be weak, which is stupidly broken. So, make it a costly temporary summon that you need to plan when to summon for most mileage is balanced by the fact that she is a genuine concern to your enemies. A viable weapon. And in her unique case, a great support unit.

Set-duration summons are the best for balanced game-play.

But if they have set duration they need to be cheap enough to summon, because otherwise to deserve a slot in your bar they have to compete with the DPS of any skill you can spam.

And if they remain costly but you make them powerful enough that they get cried about in PvP, because in PvP most HP pools won't exceed 2500 as opposed to PvE, we can have issues.

It's the same issue werewolf is facing. Zenimax thinks they need to make it 600 ultimate but make it really powerful, but that is bad design because in a game with PvP you can't have an ability that does too much damage because of the high cost. So either they have to balance skills separately for PvP and PvE, or they have to make sure to make the summons/abilities cheap with high uptime and decent damage but not to the point where it can be abused in pvp where health pools are smaller than veteran mobs.

I think the Twilight does good enough damage. It's just her HP that sucks. The familiar on the other hand does no damage whatsoever and you just use him to detonate him for aoe.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

i dont think the damage needs to be buffed, just the rate at which the summons attack. as it is now they only attack every 2 or so seconds, while they may not seem long, its a eternity in combat

Crescent

Well the familiar does need a buff. The twilight just an HP buff. And the pets need AoE immunity or they'll always be inferior in dungeons.

They also need to tweak AI because for some reason the Twilight Matriarch seems to be an aggro magnet even though her damage is not out of this world. And The Matriarch's heal is very capricious, sometimes not triggering at all.

Shaun98ca2

I also think the Twilight should heal you at 50% NOT 30%.

Lord_Hev

Crescent wrote: »

But if they have set duration they need to be cheap enough to summon, because otherwise to deserve a slot in your bar they have to compete with the DPS of any skill you can spam.

And if they remain costly but you make them powerful enough that they get cried about in PvP, because in PvP most HP pools won't exceed 2500 as opposed to PvE, we can have issues.

It's the same issue werewolf is facing. Zenimax thinks they need to make it 600 ultimate but make it really powerful, but that is bad design because in a game with PvP you can't have an ability that does too much damage because of the high cost. So either they have to balance skills separately for PvP and PvE, or they have to make sure to make the summons/abilities cheap with high uptime and decent damage but not to the point where it can be abused in pvp where health pools are smaller than veteran mobs.

I think the Twilight does good enough damage. It's just her HP that sucks. The familiar on the other hand does no damage whatsoever and you just use him to detonate him for aoe.

There are many ways to work with this. Much more than the polarity issue of toggles.


One possibility... have them very cheap to cost, but add an internal cool-down. So if the summon is banished before it expires, then you still have to wait that duration out before re-summoning it(mental strain)


This makes them non-cost extensive, while at the same time, you cant spam them. You have to be cautious on when to summon them. Because if you lose your support too quickly in a prolonged battle, things will get dire.


That's just one example. My point is, there are many ways to balance set-duration, as opposed to toggles.

Tamanous

I actually like the Unstable Familiar. A spare bomb is always handy, as with the aoe stun and he can be spammed if you want that too. I just wish it did slightly more damage and also a slightly larger AOE. It would be a very good power if buffed a bit.

No comment on using a pet ... as a pet. I do not like playing my sorc that way.

Ralathar44

I've been a pet class player since Dark Age of Camelot. Permanent duration controllable or non-controllable pets CAN be balanced in both PVE and PVP. This is fact. It's one of the trickier things to balance but it can be done.

So much ignorance on pet balance in this thread. In normal content they are fine, in VR content and dungeons they need a bit of help. Most of that is the need for AOE resistance and scaling a bit better for veteran content. But then, pets are not the only thing that scales poorly into vet content. Stamina weapons are also hurting.

Lord_Hev

Ralathar44 wrote: »

I've been a pet class player since Dark Age of Camelot. Permanent duration controllable or non-controllable pets CAN be balanced in both PVE and PVP. This is fact. It's one of the trickier things to balance but it can be done.

So much ignorance on pet balance in this thread. In normal content they are fine, in VR content and dungeons they need a bit of help. Most of that is the need for AOE resistance and scaling a bit better for veteran content. But then, pets are not the only thing that scales poorly into vet content. Stamina weapons are also hurting.

Yes, hence the key-word CAN. Will they be balanced? Can ZOS whom has made Nightblades and Templars unbalanced, while making the Dragonknight class which is SO OP, that even with nerfs, STILL can solo 12 man trials... can I expect ZOS to properly balance toggle-summons? No.



Are set-duration summons easier to balance and offer more variety and tactical deployment? Yes.

glitchmaster999

My maxed out shade does 26 damage a hit..... they got worse with the "buff" not better.

Ralathar44

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Are set-duration summons easier to balance and offer more variety and tactical deployment? Yes.

Not necessarily, you have to eliminate most parts of it being a summons for this to be true and then in that case it becomes a DOT that can miss and accidently killed rather than a pet.

The easiest way I've seen to balance permanent summons is to tie them to the mages abilities throughout the set. For example the morph of the shield skill is a good start, but they didn't go far enough.

Daedric Curse: IMO The curse should cause pets to do 10% more damage to the target of the curse. This added pet damage debuff on the enemy lasts 6 seconds. The two morphs of the curse, IMO, should be the following:

Morph 1: Reduced duration and increased AOE radius
Morph 2: Also places a 12 second debuff on enemy which increases pet damage bonus to 35%.

Bound Armor:

Morph 1: Heavy attack deal increased damage, heavy attacks add X damage to your pets next attacks. Can only occur once every 5 seconds.
Morph 2: Increased armor, pets have 10% increased health and protections.

Summon Winged Twilight:

Morph 1: Magicka recovery increase, pets regenerate health 15% faster.
Morph 2: Heals you when you drop below 35%, pet has increased health and protections.


The point:

The point is that you tie the ability of the pets to be useful and do damage to the character owning and using the abilities in that line. Thus someone who just took the pets wouldn't have near as strong of pets, but someone dedicating their ability slots and resources to it would have much stronger pets.

Also, all pets need a minimum of 25% - 50% AOE damage reduction.


PS. If you do the math you'll see that a fully "pet spec'd" summoner would be able to increase their pets damage by 27% + 35% = 62% by doing what I have listed here combined with the damage shield morph. Plus increased survivability for the winged pet or pet durability, plus bonus damage for pets while using bound armor or increased pet survivability.

This should be enough to make them viable, then we could go from there.


Basically the power of your pets has to be built into the entire pet line, not just into the pets themselves.

EDIT: Removed Daedric Curse causing your summoned critters to attack it's target on one of it's morph ideas. This is a feature being added in for update 1.2.

Ralathar44

Well, looks like we are at least getting the ability to control pets via the next update.