Official Feedback Thread for Templars

Kaliki · February 2016

James-Wayne wrote: »

With the Templar feedback thread now sitting on 27 pages and Dragonknight on 11 pages, Sorcerer on 7 pages and Nightblades on 12 pages I really hope we see something positive come from ESO Live tomorrow for Templars!

TEMPLARS UNITE!!!!

I really hope so too.
But this is the 3rd or 4th time Templars have made such a huge thread over the past years, and so far almost nothing has changed.

BurtFreeman · February 2016

as the only healer dedicated class i think any templar skill line should have a cleanse property
here my proposal:
- Aedric Spear: the morph of Sun Shield or Spear Shards should remove 1 negative effect
- Dawn's Wrath: nova should clear all the negative effect for each alley in the area of effect
- Restoring Wrath: it's fine.

Cinbri · February 2016

Just fount very not-so-funny bug with SCT: when you land Luminous Shards on group of enemies, SCT show that all affected enemies are disoriented...If only LS could really apply AoE CC

This is my last brainstorming for now:
Rite of Passage
I think it working weird in compare with NB Soul Siphon:
Rite healing 6 tragets; Soul healing 6 targets.
Rite not allowing you to move; Soul allow you to move
Rite apply major mending; Soul apply major vitality.
So after reading patchnotes you can notice that Soul Siphon was buffed. In compare to this Rite always got 30% healing buff but after change of passive it resulted in 5% healing nerf. Soul allow to move while apply 30% buff, while Rite prevent from moving while apply 25% buff. Without Focused Healing passive templar ultimate loosing in healing capabilities. You may find that additional effect from Rite morphs can compete with Soul more usable mechanic and i would agree, however in Cyro 4 sec of disabling possibility to move/use skills/block/dodge is decreasing usability of this ultimate(while Soul not applying such penalties). In addition to those penalties Rite healing is very weak and prevent from saving you in crucial moments. However I believe that granting any additional buffs(like vitality buffs) can make this ult too strong in regard of its cost, so I can suggest to make it more viable for caster:
1. Ultimate healing 6 targets - however if there is less than 6 allies, ultimate loosing too much healing outpoot. I suggest for every missed healing ball to restore some amount of resources to caster - so the less allies near the more self-sustainable ult becoming.
2. As i said healing in addition to all penalties is very weak - another suggestion: every healing ball that not healing ally to heal caster, so if there is no ally near, all 6 healing balls will heal templar. It will make this ultimate usefull in solo-play and equalize healing outpoot with Devouring Swarm. No damage but at least notacible healing.
3. Another way to fix weak healings - apply 100% snare on caster, so he can't move, keep CC immunity, but allow caster to use skills/block - it will increase usability of ultimate in any situation as templar won't be disabled while channeling ultimate.
@Wrobel

nagarjunna · February 2016

James-Wayne wrote: »

With the Templar feedback thread now sitting on 27 pages and Dragonknight on 11 pages, Sorcerer on 7 pages and Nightblades on 12 pages I really hope we see something positive come from ESO Live tomorrow for Templars!

TEMPLARS UNITE!!!!

And that more anything should show the depth of feeling we have for our Templars!

maxjapank · February 2016

@Cinbri

I'm a bit unfamiliar with using Rite of Passage as I've always used other Ults for my group. That's an interesting comparison to the NBs Soul Siphon. One question, though. I know that Rite heals six players, but being a smart heal, does it continue to heal the six lowest health players? Meaning...does it cycle through players, thus having the potential to heal more than six?

Cinbri · February 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

@Cinbri

I'm a bit unfamiliar with using Rite of Passage as I've always used other Ults for my group. That's an interesting comparison to the NBs Soul Siphon. One question, though. I know that Rite heals six players, but being a smart heal, does it continue to heal the six lowest health players? Meaning...does it cycle through players, thus having the potential to heal more than six?

Yes, it is choosing like Rushed Ceremony most wounded ally. By 6 targets i mean - every 1 second you releasing 6 healing orbs that smarthealing allies. It is bit better than Siphon but unnoticable for caster. And another problem that it is still dodgeable.

Lettigall · February 2016

Piercing Javelin- Hurl your spear at an enemy with godlike strength,...

Faulgor · February 2016

Lettigall wrote: »

Piercing Javelin- Hurl your spear at an enemy with godlike strength,...

Considering the time that spear was in the air, that looked more like Spear Shards ...

Chelos · February 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

Considering the time that spear was in the air, that looked more like Spear Shards ...

Footage from the new beta nerf... (just sidestep, no more need for dodge roll)

Nifty2g · February 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

Piercing Javelin- Hurl your spear at an enemy with godlike strength,...

Considering the time that spear was in the air, that looked more like Spear Shards ...

He also had to double click to cast it

AfkNinja · February 2016

Now that the thread is 27 pages get ready for ZOS to sink it. HAHAHA, bump. I've canceled my sub after these changes and I'm waiting to play again until I see real, positive, changes for Templar and Stamplar.

Essiaga · February 2016

nagarjunna wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

With the Templar feedback thread now sitting on 27 pages and Dragonknight on 11 pages, Sorcerer on 7 pages and Nightblades on 12 pages I really hope we see something positive come from ESO Live tomorrow for Templars!

TEMPLARS UNITE!!!!

And that more anything should show the depth of feeling we have for our Templars!

Most of us are playing other classes with far superior performance and are STILL fighting to get back on our Templar. I really do not enjoy the other classes as much, but they're all just so much better. We still love the class, kinda like we still love our grandfathers, even if they can't keep up anymore.

Essiaga · February 2016

Chelos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Considering the time that spear was in the air, that looked more like Spear Shards ...

Footage from the new beta nerf... (just sidestep, no more need for dodge roll)

On live Shards takes about 3 seconds from the press of the button till the shard lands ... and it will soon come with pretty red circle to make it easier to avoid.

Such is life ... as a Templar.

SeptimusDova · February 2016

Will this be the new record Templar thread ?
Here is the old one it is at 37 mages.. err pages

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p1

david.haypreub18_ESO · February 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

Chelos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Considering the time that spear was in the air, that looked more like Spear Shards ...

Footage from the new beta nerf... (just sidestep, no more need for dodge roll)

On live Shards takes about 3 seconds from the press of the button till the shard lands ... and it will soon come with pretty red circle to make it easier to avoid.

Such is life ... as a Templar.

See my sig for ZOS's registered catchphrase for the class!

Radburn · February 2016

Played a templar since beta and I really enjoy the class in PVE, not so much in PvP. I rolled a Nightblade recently and it became evident over time why the Templar is so weak, here is a summarized comparison:

Nightblade - Class skills & passives synergize well. They can choose a role and do it very well, especially burst Damage. They can utilize animation cancelling which is very important in the current meta. Stamina caters to high Burst damage while Magicka has better survival options. vs Templar's skills & passives which don't really add up to much.

Templar - Class skills & Passives do not synergize, the class suffers from an identity issue. We've seen classes like this before in other games, the jack of all trades. They can do it all, just not very well or as good as other classes. The Magicka Templar performs well in all categories except one, small scale or 1 vs 1 pvp.

In small scale PVP the Templar gets focused and does not have any way to counter the deadly animation cancelling rotations of Nightblades. They are no match for the combination of shield stacking, evasive, fast casting, hard hitting rotation of Sorcerers. In my experience they cannot outlast DKs who are better suited to playing defensive while dishing out damage. Templars defense relies on spamming heals, and they cannot go on the offense. Once you're healing you are already dead.

The Templar, so far as I know, does not have a high burst rotation so it cannot compete in the TTK circus that is live right now. Stamina Templars may have a build which comes close but they require specialized gear and give up way too much of their class skills in the process. Play a nightblade if you want to go stamina. Magicka is where Templars belong, however our good class defining skills like Puncturing Sweep and Dark Flare are locked behind channeling + cast times which just doesn't work in this current meta. We cannot properly animation cancel using them AND they get affected by the horrible lag. Don't even get me started on Focus Charge...

I am really enjoying the fast pace of my Stamina Nightblade and it really opened my eyes. The Templar needs a review and there have been plenty of good suggestions. If you don't plan on changing the current meta then please make Templars viable within it.

blackcom90 · February 2016

So let's do a little recap on the skills that are not usable:
(Obviously it's totally subjective so you are welcome to replay)

Javelin: 1/100 use this skill sometimes... maybe
Charge: So broken that it's comic
Purifying light (or other morphs): The skill concept it's cool, but in reality the skill it's pretty hard to use and has better alternatives
Eclipse (or other morphs): useful in a duel in pvp aaaand... stop. If i have to use it to do aoe i prefer detonation obviously... in pve it's a skill that can't find it's place in bar and in group pvp you can use something better.
Healing ritual: Totally absurd. You are snared with a 1.3 casting time that will get bugged or will be interrupted. Plus the area it's small. when the group run around you have to slowly walk behind it and hope it will not get too far. In pve you have to avoid the red aoe and in 1.3 sec you are dead... or you do a dodge roll e just waste the time spent. They say that work because someone used it with a less that satisfying result. WELL... guys let's stream and show that it doesn't work.
Radiant aura: Oookay. now it's a little cooler with the magika rec... but repentance it's still better. Maybe if you are a tank in a trial where the bosses have few adds you will think radiant it's better... but no one will use it at the end.

It's too much to ask for skill lines where you can use more than 2 skills?

david.haypreub18_ESO · February 2016

Just to recap what is fun and not fun, according to Wrobel:

Spamming Puncturing Strikes: Fun
Spamming Wrecking Blow: Fun
Spamming BoL: NOT Fun

Cinbri · February 2016

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Will this be the new record Templar thread ?
Here is the old one it is at 37 mages.. err pages

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p1

Oh that painfull memories

ZOS if you reading it go read thread i created on IC pts about Eclipse: pretty everything i talked about became as predicted, skill became useless and templars became just a clerics.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/201565/revert-eclipse-cap-change/p1

tinythinker · February 2016

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Chelos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Considering the time that spear was in the air, that looked more like Spear Shards ...

Footage from the new beta nerf... (just sidestep, no more need for dodge roll)

On live Shards takes about 3 seconds from the press of the button till the shard lands ... and it will soon come with pretty red circle to make it easier to avoid.

Such is life ... as a Templar.

See my sig for ZOS's registered catchphrase for the class!

I don't mind if they are slower by design *if*, in the era of high burst damage, their skills are updated for serious mitigation, effective DoTs/CC, and adequate healing. Some skills, active and passive, just haven't been brought up to speed to match the current meta.

(Sorry if I am a broken record on this topic, I'll just give these link rather than repeat my latest suggestions for the class and most recent recommendations for heavy armor.)

david.haypreub18_ESO · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

Chelos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Considering the time that spear was in the air, that looked more like Spear Shards ...

Footage from the new beta nerf... (just sidestep, no more need for dodge roll)

On live Shards takes about 3 seconds from the press of the button till the shard lands ... and it will soon come with pretty red circle to make it easier to avoid.

Such is life ... as a Templar.

See my sig for ZOS's registered catchphrase for the class!

I don't mind if they are slower by design *if*, in the era of high burst damage, their skills are updated for serious mitigation, effective DoTs/CC, and adequate healing. Some skills, active and passive, just haven't been brought up to speed to match the current meta.

(Sorry if I am a broken record on this topic, I'll just give these link rather than repeat my latest suggestions for the class and most recent recommendations for heavy armor.)

Oh, I agree completely.

If their going to inflict a massive nerf to Templar healing, then they better increase our other abilities accordingly. But they're not. In fact they've nerfed some other abilities too, and failed to address the bugs and problems with the existing skills. It is the worst of both worlds for Templars right now.

cazlonb16_ESO · February 2016

The only class with ( limited ) stand-your-ground capability is and has always been the Dragonknight.

tinythinker · February 2016

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

The only class with ( limited ) stand-your-ground capability is and has always been the Dragonknight.

Naw, see the brief history of Templars. They had a better version of Eclipse, they had Blinding Light, and with the Restoring Spirit passive giving back a percentage of max magicka per cast, they could be magicka engines even in heavy armor. When you add in other skills the class still has that were clearly meant to be melee-defensive (whether or not they do enough to help), there was a path to Templars also being a stand and fight class.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Just to recap what is fun and not fun, according to Wrobel:

Spamming Puncturing Strikes: Fun
Spamming Wrecking Blow: Fun
Spamming BoL: NOT Fun

I don't actually think it should matter what a developer says is fun. I would think it should be the general population should decide that who play the game. After all ZoS develops the game to make money (the quid) for our entertainment/fun (pro quo). That means their job is to provide us with the fun, but if they don't know what WE find fun collectively, then they're missing the ball.

I like my Templar and I'll continue to build his achievements, but I've already decided going forward that Templar is going to take a back burner role for me as well unless they do some major redefining changes. I've invested too much into that character, mastering all but a couple of skills (all morphs), know quite a few motifs, most recipes green to gold, and very close to all traits. Its not like that character is going away, but to make a comparison I'll treat him like the old sheep dog. I'm not going to kill him, he's been a good loyal dog, but he's not herding my sheep and guarding the farm anymore.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

The only class with ( limited ) stand-your-ground capability is and has always been the Dragonknight.

Naw, see the brief history of Templars. They had a better version of Eclipse, they had Blinding Light, and with the Restoring Spirit passive giving back a percentage of max magicka per cast, they could be magicka engines even in heavy armor. When you add in other skills the class still has that were clearly meant to be melee-defensive (whether or not they do enough to help), there was a path to Templars also being a stand and fight class.

I think @tinythinker is spot on here.

david.haypreub18_ESO · February 2016

True. This is the second time under Wrobel that Templars have gotten attention, and there have been promises of buffs and fixes. But each time, Templars have only gotten worse.

Faulgor · February 2016

1 hour until all our hopes are shattered, guys! Feel the hype!

Radburn wrote: »

Once you're healing you are already dead.

That has been my experience as well, although I've seen some Templare fare better.
The attacker just has to continue his rotation, which he naturally does, while you try to heal up. With no other defense except healing, you always have your back to the wall. Especially with the lackluster mobility of Templars.
DKs do better with this playstyle because they haver other means of defense and great CC, while also having the ability to maintain pressure because their attacks aren't channeled.

I really wish they would sit down and think about what they actually want Templars to be. Because whatever they are now, it doesn't work.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

PhantomSpaceCop wrote: »

That noted, the Templar class has the potential to be one of the most powerful classes in the game, and for whatever reason, the GMs are definitely holding out. Maybe there's some kind of stigma on the class based in ancient MMO dev lore that I have no idea about because this is only the second MMO I've ever gotten involved in? Who Knows™.

Not saying this is necessarily relevant to explaining the recent changes, but, in beta you still had the old skill Blinding Light that gave a 50% miss chance to enemies within 5 meters. Eclipse blocked all single-target magicka spells and could be spammed onto multiple targets. The Restoring Spirit passive from the Dawn's Wrath skill line returned 4% of the character's magicka for each ability cast (they used to all be magicka-based) but was changed to 4% reduction in ability and ultimate cost for launch. You can read about the Restoring Spirit change in this old Tamriel Foundry post or this discussion on Reddit.

Bosses were made immune to Eclipse and Blinding Light because they were considered OP, then Blinding Light was replaced by Radiant Destruction, and Eclipse was limited to one-target active at a time with CC break option to give CC immunity. Healing Ritual keeps getting tweaked but never finds a home, Puncturing Sweeps was changed to give a heal for damage done when Biting Jabs was changed to a stamina morph, Blazing Shield was nerfed, Radiant Destruction was added and then nerfed, and there you go. The major changes (or most of them). That's the backdrop for the current brouhaha.

So yeah, in Beta some people considered Templars OP in some aspects of PvE because they could use Rune Focus, Blinding Light, and Blazing Shield to tank up in heavy armor and then burn everything nearby with Jabs while getting good resource management with Restoring Spirit. Just top it off with Breath of Life every so often (fun fact, Rushed Ceremony and its morphs were nerfed once before in Beta) which worked well because of the magicka return.

Anyway, you can see by the way the class used to work how the logic of the class skills fit together. And why some people want Templars to still get extra magicka return, even if it's modified to only work for heavy armor. And how changes to the game, especially post 1.6, have not really been integrated very well so far into some Templar active and passive skills.

Almost every major global change to the rules of the game have been unkind to Templar. One of the points you didn't mention was the whole issuance of cc immunity. People use to really hate jabs because they felt like they would get permalocked (like people do with talons now). The reason Jabs became such a horrible skill in pvp and why people complained suggesting a snare is because the 5 second cc immunity it gave away was preposterous for the tiny little .3 second cc that it gave. The cc immunity on Eclipse was a more extreme nerf of a skill, and I think groundbreakingly bad. It set the bar for really bad design choices. Javelin is another fine example of ***-poor cc with a huge cost and granting ridiculous amounts of cc immunity for a negligible amount of cc duration. I personally believe the people who are currently balancing Templar are not the same people who envisioned and designed the class at the outset. The changes that have taken place with Templar follow neither rhyme nor reason, and there is no cohesive thought behind the class. They really do feel like an afterthought.

Radburn · February 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

I really wish they would sit down and think about what they actually want Templars to be. Because whatever they are now, it doesn't work.

Templars don't work in the current meta of pvp - they are actually quite awesome on paper, just not in practice. I think ZOS is attempting to make everyone survive longer with the next update, however they've never really had control over the PVP side of things. They make changes, add new sets and then sit back while the min/maxers create builds that verge on exploiting mechanics. Every update there is some skill or ability or thing that gets toned down, and something else replaces it.

At this point I don't know if this is a strategy to keep things fresh and people continually playing/upgrading or if it's really a case of ZOS always being behind the curve.

tinythinker · February 2016

ESO live for Friday, Feb 12th:

-combat teams loves and plays all classes equally
-general changes to Templar intended to make it feel like you had more options with the class
-changes to BoL to create parity
-changes to Healing Ritual to make it something useful in group play so allies don't die waiting for heal