Bahraha's Curse set Testing and Theorycrafting

ThatNeonZebraAgain · March 2016

As an Argonian Magicka Nightblade tank/DPS, I was excited about seeing this set in the TG update. It looked like a more obtainable version of the Leeching set from IC. So, I got hold of 5 pieces of it and did some testing to see how it performed/behaved and how it could be put to use in PvP and PvE. Here is what I found:

Proc behavior

Unfortunately, only 1 “desecrated ground” can be active at a time (this is not stated in the tooltip). This is a big let down for me, especially given how small the radius of this stationary proc is (4 meters in-game I would estimate).
While it is difficult to determine, I believe the proc cannot be refreshed while one is already active. However, one can proc right after the previous one expires, so there appears to be no cooldown past the 5s duration of the proc itself. While the size of the “desecrated ground” is rather small, it can affect what appears to be unlimited targets on top of it, and the snare effect seems to persist for a second or so after the target leaves. I had about 10 durzogs all on one proc being hit and healing me simultaneously. The snare helps keep enemies in the area, which in turns serves to damage them and heal you more.
The heal is based on the damage dealt, which is lessened by resistances. However, since it is ground-targeted, it cannot be blocked or cleansed. The heal can also be quite strong depending on how many targets are on the proc. So essentially it’s a 5 second stationary HoT that heals based on the damage it does and how many targets it hits. Since I tested against mobs, it’s also unclear if it can proc or heal against damage shields; intuition tells me it wouldn’t but with the new changes in the TG update so that healing based on “damage done” still works against damage shields (see the change to Strife), it just might.
There appears to be no range limit beyond the range of the ability being used; it was proccing at 28m range on several abilities.
Anecdotally, the proc chance seems strange, or maybe it's just RNG. I could get it to proc multiple times on a single target (eg while plinking away at a mammoth with Structured Entropy), while it would only proc once during fights where I was hitting 10+ mobs simultaneously. When attacking such big groups, it seems like the 25% proc chance means that it should have a VERY high chance to proc on every cast of Sap Essence, but it didn't. It seemed like Siphoning Attacks with it’s 10% proc chance was proccing more frequently against big packs of mobs somehow. This could also be evidence that it cannot be refreshed while one proc is already active.

What does/does not proc it:

Basic Light/Heavy attacks: No

Bash/interrupt: Yes

NB Class:

Shadow Image: No

Debilitate: No, not even on first hit (though I suspect the initial direct damage on Cripple would)

Sap Essence: Yes

Swallow Soul: Yes

Concealed Weapon: Yes

Refreshing Path: Yes, but only on first hit

Alliance War:

Razor Caltrops: only on initial direct damage hit gained from this morph.

Proxy Det: No (quite disappointing)

Guild:

Necrotic Orb: No (also disappointing)

Structured Entropy: Yes, but only on first hit.

Destro Staff:

Flame Reach: Yes

Unstable Wall of Fire: No (not on initial hit nor last explosion)

Crushing Shock: Yes

Fire Ring: Yes, but only on initial hit (not fire DoT component)

Proc Summary:
Despite what the tooltip says, it only procs off casted direct damage abilities (ie not basic attacks) and only initial hits of some DoTs. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn

If you test the set yourself and find other abilities this set procs or not with, please let me know and I'll add to this list.

EDIT: Dev reply from another thread about how BC set procs:

"ZOS_TFlemming wrote: »

Bahara’s/Syvarra’s
Something that isn’t communicated very clearly right now is that Bahara’s Curse procs on ability cast, not on damage, as it is meant to be better for people who don’t use DoTs vs Syvarra’s which has a chance to proc on every tick (hence the lower proc rate). Syvarra’s performs better with more DoT focused builds.

WillhelmBlack · March 2016

That's great, thanks for sharing. Good to see something other than vicious death. I like using sets that font do outright damage also. Can't wait to try Tava on my Stamplar.

Joy_Division · March 2016

Thanks for sharing.

I suspect the main reason people will be disappointed with this set in they try to use it in Cyrodiil is the double whammy I can almost guarantee it suffers from Battle Spirit which nerfs the damage by 50%, which then leaves a smaller pool for healing, which is then also reduced by 50%.

With every skill, every set, every mechanic that ZoS introduces in the game that looks good on paper, the poorly conceived Battle Spirit nerf ruins as it's double 50% reduction is inconsistent with the fundamental mechanics of the game.

Neoauspex · March 2016

Does the AoE snare stack with snares that debuff individual targets?

ThatNeonZebraAgain · March 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thanks for sharing.

I suspect the main reason people will be disappointed with this set in they try to use it in Cyrodiil is the double whammy I can almost guarantee it suffers from Battle Spirit which nerfs the damage by 50%, which then leaves a smaller pool for healing, which is then also reduced by 50%.

With every skill, every set, every mechanic that ZoS introduces in the game that looks good on paper, the poorly conceived Battle Spirit nerf ruins as it's double 50% reduction is inconsistent with the fundamental mechanics of the game.

So true. I somehow hadn't considered that when thinking about the set. You're right, Battle Spirit undermines the basic design of the set, and will render the damage, and thus the heal, next to worthless. It had more PvE potential anyways since the radius of the proc is so small and can be easily avoided by players.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · March 2016

Neoauspex wrote: »

Does the AoE snare stack with snares that debuff individual targets?

Good question. This could be tested by applying Crippling Grasp/Debilitate to the target that's on the proc. Will try to test that sometime soon.

Tonnopesce · March 2016

I will test this set this evening in pvp with my magika dk, i've noticed that it proc with burning embers and i was wandering if it can be a good dk tank set, the only test that i've done till now was on giants and mammoth in Whrotgar and without blocking at all just spamming embers it was impossible to die.

One question : it has even the jewels?
If yes a good 5 magnus ( or 5 something) + the dwemer boss set + Bahraha's Curse can become a really good magika tank set

Autolycus · March 2016

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thanks for sharing.

I suspect the main reason people will be disappointed with this set in they try to use it in Cyrodiil is the double whammy I can almost guarantee it suffers from Battle Spirit which nerfs the damage by 50%, which then leaves a smaller pool for healing, which is then also reduced by 50%.

With every skill, every set, every mechanic that ZoS introduces in the game that looks good on paper, the poorly conceived Battle Spirit nerf ruins as it's double 50% reduction is inconsistent with the fundamental mechanics of the game.

So true. I somehow hadn't considered that when thinking about the set. You're right, Battle Spirit undermines the basic design of the set, and will render the damage, and thus the heal, next to worthless. It had more PvE potential anyways since the radius of the proc is so small and can be easily avoided by players.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with this. @ThatNeonZebraAgain You know a fair bit about my tanking setup considering the many exchanges we've had within the past few weeks about NB tanking, and the changes to our builds with TG. It seems you and I tend to be on similar trains of thought here.

A couple of days ago I picked up a full set of Bahraha's Curse, and replaced the full set of Leeching I was using previously. I did this for two reasons:
1. Boosting magic damage is crucial for self-healing in my setup, which stems primarily from Swallow Soul and Sap Essence. Previously, magic damage was buffed by thaumaturge, which also buffed poison damage. Now, poison damage is in Mighty, and I'm putting my points into Elemental Expert, which means that I'm no longer buffing poison damage, but instead going all magic and elemental damage. Bahraha's Curse deals magic damage.
2. The up-time on Bahraha's Curse, at least at first glance, is far superior to Leeching. It allows for more control of when and where the ground AoE procs. Comparing the two sets, we see an 8% chance when being attacked on Leeching versus a 25% chance when using a damaging ability. It procs from Swallow Soul, Sap Essence, Puncture, Inner Fire, and Deep Slash. I'm still testing how well it works with ultimates. I think it only procs on the initial hit, for something like Soul Tether. I would assume the same is true for Meteor, Dawnreaker, etc., but not for something like VoB.

As mentioned, I've been using this set for a few days now. I've found the up-time concept to be true; I can pretty much get this to proc whenever I want, though RNG still plays a role here, so I don't have complete control, but enough to make the bang worth the buck. In PvE, I'm still perma-blocking every mob from entire floors of vWGT without a healer, without running out of magicka or stamina, and without losing aggro. In terms of functionality, it's identical to Leeching, it just happens to be easier to proc. It does slightly less healing than Leeching does, but the up-time on it, at least in my honest opinion, outweighs the lower healing amount.

From a PvP perspective, you guys are both right in theory, or at least I agree with the theory, but only in concept. In practice, it is far more useful than we're giving it credit for here. Now, I haven't done a great deal of testing it in PvP yet, but I did run Leeching for months before this update in my PvP tank build, where the same concept applies. I was taking on literally 20-30 players at a time without a healer. People have a really hard time seeing the ground AoEs, and they usually don't move. Against a single player, you guys are right, it's more or less useless (although I have personal experiences in 1v1s using Leeching that still leaned in my favor). Against a group, it is incredibly powerful, especially if we are right in assuming that it can tick on an unlimited number of targets, provided they are standing in the desecration. I'm just ballparking the numbers here, based on my own tooltips and combat text, but assuming 10 players are standing in my desecration, accounting for battle spirit, that's still about 6k HPS, which is not negligible. Twenty targets would be upwards of 10-12k per second.

I wouldn't necessary recommend it as FotM, but I won't be dropping it anytime soon. In fact, the only content I won't be using Bahraha's for is main tanking vMoL, but even then I might continue to use it there. Even on a single target (like Kena) the heal is strong enough, and I can proc it reliably enough, to outheal the damage she deals for an extended time without needing a healer.

I'll do some more testing in pvp and hone in to more exact healing and damage numbers in Cyrodiil. I'm currently looking into a build that couples Bahraha's with Fasalla's Guilde, which I anticipate will be an awesome combo. The main problem with that is that it foregoes a great deal of mitigation, but I think it can be managed.

TL;DR - Bahraha's is the beez-neez. I'm loving it, and find it useful in pretty much all content as a NB tank, including pvp.

SienneYviete · March 2016

Absolutely loving Bahraha's and Malubeth combo on my DK tank atm. Would love to see the desecrated ground rune get a bit wider though, seems a little small.

redspecter23 · March 2016

I've been using this on my DK tank. The heals are nice, it has decent synergy with DK who in pve often has a load of trash mobs all in close proximity and the damage dealt has nothing to do with my spell damage or weapon damage meaning it's static so a tank with no damage investment will deal the same damage and get the same heals as anyone else (CP matters of course). It's a solid 1k per second self heals against bosses as well as whatever else I might be adding like burning embers and combined with Igneous Shield (which I'm spamming constantly anyway) it keeps me alive quite well.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thanks for sharing.

I suspect the main reason people will be disappointed with this set in they try to use it in Cyrodiil is the double whammy I can almost guarantee it suffers from Battle Spirit which nerfs the damage by 50%, which then leaves a smaller pool for healing, which is then also reduced by 50%.

With every skill, every set, every mechanic that ZoS introduces in the game that looks good on paper, the poorly conceived Battle Spirit nerf ruins as it's double 50% reduction is inconsistent with the fundamental mechanics of the game.

Battle Spirit is just a terrible bandaid for a problem that needed a more refined touch to the game as a whole. Ie: They took a Mattock where a scalpel should have been used.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Has anyone tested it on other classes? I was planning to run more missions to get the exact armor types I wanted.

Reevster · March 2016

I love this set, my crystal frags now have "snare" and dot and healing....

Chres · March 2016

thanks for sharing. nearly every question i had about this set i answered.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · March 2016

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

I will test this set this evening in pvp with my magika dk, i've noticed that it proc with burning embers and i was wandering if it can be a good dk tank set, the only test that i've done till now was on giants and mammoth in Whrotgar and without blocking at all just spamming embers it was impossible to die.

One question : it has even the jewels?
If yes a good 5 magnus ( or 5 something) + the dwemer boss set + Bahraha's Curse can become a really good magika tank set

Yes, it comes in jewelry in all 3 stats, as well as coming in all other slots and most traits (have yet to see Impen however, and shields also seem pretty rare). So there is a lot of flexibility, which is great. Unfortunately, Bahraha's 2, 3, and 4pc bonuses are only so-so, which means other set bonuses will have to make up for the sustain and damage lost. I had been thinking 4pc Magnus or Seducer with 3pc Willpower; or 4pc Elfbane with 3pc Alteration Mastery; or 5pc Kagnerac with 2pc Torug or Monster set (Malubeth, Blood Spawn, Engine Guardian, and Kena could all be interesting). It would be really cool to pair it with 5pc Storm Knight if it wasn’t capped at V12, or potentially even Death’s Wind or Draugr’s Heritage if either of those sets’ knockdown effects could proc Bahraha.

Autolycus wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thanks for sharing.

I suspect the main reason people will be disappointed with this set in they try to use it in Cyrodiil is the double whammy I can almost guarantee it suffers from Battle Spirit which nerfs the damage by 50%, which then leaves a smaller pool for healing, which is then also reduced by 50%.

With every skill, every set, every mechanic that ZoS introduces in the game that looks good on paper, the poorly conceived Battle Spirit nerf ruins as it's double 50% reduction is inconsistent with the fundamental mechanics of the game.

So true. I somehow hadn't considered that when thinking about the set. You're right, Battle Spirit undermines the basic design of the set, and will render the damage, and thus the heal, next to worthless. It had more PvE potential anyways since the radius of the proc is so small and can be easily avoided by players.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with this. @ThatNeonZebraAgain You know a fair bit about my tanking setup considering the many exchanges we've had within the past few weeks about NB tanking, and the changes to our builds with TG. It seems you and I tend to be on similar trains of thought here.

A couple of days ago I picked up a full set of Bahraha's Curse, and replaced the full set of Leeching I was using previously. I did this for two reasons:
1. Boosting magic damage is crucial for self-healing in my setup, which stems primarily from Swallow Soul and Sap Essence. Previously, magic damage was buffed by thaumaturge, which also buffed poison damage. Now, poison damage is in Mighty, and I'm putting my points into Elemental Expert, which means that I'm no longer buffing poison damage, but instead going all magic and elemental damage. Bahraha's Curse deals magic damage.
2. The up-time on Bahraha's Curse, at least at first glance, is far superior to Leeching. It allows for more control of when and where the ground AoE procs. Comparing the two sets, we see an 8% chance when being attacked on Leeching versus a 25% chance when using a damaging ability. It procs from Swallow Soul, Sap Essence, Puncture, Inner Fire, and Deep Slash. I'm still testing how well it works with ultimates. I think it only procs on the initial hit, for something like Soul Tether. I would assume the same is true for Meteor, Dawnreaker, etc., but not for something like VoB.

As mentioned, I've been using this set for a few days now. I've found the up-time concept to be true; I can pretty much get this to proc whenever I want, though RNG still plays a role here, so I don't have complete control, but enough to make the bang worth the buck. In PvE, I'm still perma-blocking every mob from entire floors of vWGT without a healer, without running out of magicka or stamina, and without losing aggro. In terms of functionality, it's identical to Leeching, it just happens to be easier to proc. It does slightly less healing than Leeching does, but the up-time on it, at least in my honest opinion, outweighs the lower healing amount.

From a PvP perspective, you guys are both right in theory, or at least I agree with the theory, but only in concept. In practice, it is far more useful than we're giving it credit for here. Now, I haven't done a great deal of testing it in PvP yet, but I did run Leeching for months before this update in my PvP tank build, where the same concept applies. I was taking on literally 20-30 players at a time without a healer. People have a really hard time seeing the ground AoEs, and they usually don't move. Against a single player, you guys are right, it's more or less useless (although I have personal experiences in 1v1s using Leeching that still leaned in my favor). Against a group, it is incredibly powerful, especially if we are right in assuming that it can tick on an unlimited number of targets, provided they are standing in the desecration. I'm just ballparking the numbers here, based on my own tooltips and combat text, but assuming 10 players are standing in my desecration, accounting for battle spirit, that's still about 6k HPS, which is not negligible. Twenty targets would be upwards of 10-12k per second.

I wouldn't necessary recommend it as FotM, but I won't be dropping it anytime soon. In fact, the only content I won't be using Bahraha's for is main tanking vMoL, but even then I might continue to use it there. Even on a single target (like Kena) the heal is strong enough, and I can proc it reliably enough, to outheal the damage she deals for an extended time without needing a healer.

I'll do some more testing in pvp and hone in to more exact healing and damage numbers in Cyrodiil. I'm currently looking into a build that couples Bahraha's with Fasalla's Guilde, which I anticipate will be an awesome combo. The main problem with that is that it foregoes a great deal of mitigation, but I think it can be managed.

TL;DR - Bahraha's is the beez-neez. I'm loving it, and find it useful in pretty much all content as a NB tank, including pvp.

Thanks as usual for the great post! Interesting to hear your comparison with Leaching. Your testing of Bahraha in vWGT seems very promising -- though I have to ask you how you are still permablocking against so many mobs. I am having to drop block and light attack weave much more now to keep resources in check! Bahraha isn't proccing Siphoning Attacks is it? I don't know if I will replace my 5pc Juggernaut with Bahraha yet. I really like the huge, guaranteed emergency heal on Juggernaut compared to the chance to heal on Bahraha, though the cooldown/uptime on Bahraha can be very powerful like you mentioned.

EDIT: You should try using both Leeching and Bahraha at the same time and see what happens!

Ankael07 · March 2016

inevidable det,daedric minefield,velocious curse and shattering prison doesnt proc. it. The tooltip says ''damaging abilities'' but Im starting to think its misphrasing or something

Tonnopesce · March 2016

Today test
Wit a pretty casual set up ( i've used my pvp set )
2 x Engine Guardian.
3 x Willpower healthy (SD enchant)
2 x Magnus ( S&B)
5 x Bahraha's Curse
It was 5+1+1 set up with 14k stamina 31k magika and 22k health
Running around Craglorn i've decided to do the Seekers Archive quest and while having a decent dps (2.2kspell damage) i was basically immortal (quest completed BTW).
Evry DK spell on target, activate the ground curse both aoe or single target.

I still cant find purple jewels they seems to be rare AF (i've searched in every trading guild DC side).
If someone have them in the EU server PM me plz.

Ishammael · March 2016

Neoauspex wrote: »

Does the AoE snare stack with snares that debuff individual targets?

No, the snares do no stack.

OneWhomWaits · March 2016

Is the desecrated ground aoe large enough to fill the breach of a keep?

ThatNeonZebraAgain · March 2016

OneWhomWaits wrote: »

Is the desecrated ground aoe large enough to fill the breach of a keep?

No, I would estimate it would fill maybe 30-40% of an outer wall breach. Would fill probably 60-70% of an inner keep breach.

Autolycus · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Has anyone tested it on other classes? I was planning to run more missions to get the exact armor types I wanted.

Not personally, but I've done some theorycrafting on it and I believe it would be a very powerful set to run in certain Templar and Sorc setups, in addition to the NB and DK setups being discussed here. I believe this primarily through the use of CP buffing magic damage (and healing output, in some cases), and I theorycrafted somewhat of an interesting healer build for pvp on a Templar that runs 5 Bahraha's and 5 Fasalla's Guile. In short, I think it's got potential for all classes, but it doesn't pair with every set in the game; it just needs to be matched up with complimentary gear and the class is more or less irrelevant.

Autolycus · March 2016

OneWhomWaits wrote: »

Is the desecrated ground aoe large enough to fill the breach of a keep?

It's approximately the size of Mage Rune or Rune Focus.

Reevster · March 2016

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Today test
Wit a pretty casual set up ( i've used my pvp set )
2 x Engine Guardian.
3 x Willpower healthy (SD enchant)
2 x Magnus ( S&B)
5 x Bahraha's Curse
It was 5+1+1 set up with 14k stamina 31k magika and 22k health
Running around Craglorn i've decided to do the Seekers Archive quest and while having a decent dps (2.2kspell damage) i was basically immortal (quest completed BTW).
Evry DK spell on target, activate the ground curse both aoe or single target.

I still cant find purple jewels they seems to be rare AF (i've searched in every trading guild DC side).
If someone have them in the EU server PM me plz.

don't think there are any purples, everything is blue. i was we could upgrade jewelry like we can with weapons and gear through crafting.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · March 2016

I wonder if Nerienth monster set could proc it. If not, it would at least compliment it from a DPS perspective.

Autolycus · March 2016

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

I wonder if Nerienth monster set could proc it. If not, it would at least compliment it from a DPS perspective.

I don't think it does. Nerien'eth is a delayed-damage ability which, for all intents and purposes, is a DoT. Still, proper testing to confirm is a good idea.

Silver_Strider · March 2016

God, I want to test this set so badly, just because I can't get the ****ing Leeching Gloves to drop -_-

Vanzen · March 2016

Mag DK :
Reactive x5 armor all Divine with magicka glyp (for those who forgot about this set: its 35% less dammage when stun/CC/fear , AKA 90% of the time in Ciro ...) + BahrahaX5 (3jewels/2armor light/medium/divine)+ 2 Magnus snb.
Spam Deep breath in the middle of a zerg and enjoy.
This Bahrah set is awesome in pvp.

LegacyDM · March 2016

On paper it seems good. However, I believe Krags hope is still better. Can get higher dps that doesn't depend on rng and better magicka regen. Now the question is does the higher dps from Krags provid the same if not better benefit to nb siphoning heals from increased damage compared to the extra heal from bahraha? Let's be honest, the desicrated ground is meh in pvp because the size is small and most people back peddle out quickly. So really it's for the heal benefit.

Speely · March 2016

Hey thank you so much for the testing and info! Seriously, this answers some questions I had about the set (bc it looks awesome on paper.)

Autolycus · March 2016

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

On paper it seems good. However, I believe Krags hope is still better. Can get higher dps that doesn't depend on rng and better magicka regen. Now the question is does the higher dps from Krags provid the same if not better benefit to nb siphoning heals from increased damage compared to the extra heal from bahraha? Let's be honest, the desicrated ground is meh in pvp because the size is small and most people back peddle out quickly. So really it's for the heal benefit.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Last night I spent a few hours in Cyrodiil, part of which I used my tanking set with Bahraha's to see how it would fare. While I didn't record the damage and heal values, I had a few circumstances in which BC not only saved my life, but also did enough damage to win me the fight. The healing from BC in cyrodiil is not negligible, and people don't move out of it as often as we assume. I think we are right to assume so, but in practice people don't even see the desecration half the time.

In one situation I was jumped by a NB. I like to give credit where credit is due, so I should say that this player was pretty smart. He did good damage, moved out of things he shouldn't be standing in (including BC when he saw it) and knew when to take advantage of opportunities. After he jumped me, he followed it with a fear, and managed to burst me to <50%. I proc'd BC and was very quickly healed back to full. It felt like I was healed up immediately (and I was by myself), but everything "feels" like it happens immediately in Cyrodiil. It was probably closer to a few seconds. He noticed it, and moved out of the way. Problem is, BC works a lot like Daedric Mines: you know if you stand in it, you're gonna have a bad time, and it forces the other player to play more on your terms. It's also pretty useful to fear people into the desecration, much like how many NBs will fear players into Daedric Mines and the like.

The same utility and healing is noticeable in large group scenarios too. There were numerous occasions where I was balls-deep in 20+ enemy groups. The snare is very useful, the heals seem really strong when there are multiple people standing in it, and it's relatively easy to proc. For magicka NB sap tanks, this set is golden imo, because we typically buff our magic damage and healing received, so this set meshes perfectly with our general setup. There were a few times where entire groups were focusing me and they couldn't take me down, granted for most of the night I had a healer with me. We ran in a group of only 6 last night.

I really need to record the actual heal values though. I got too caught up in having fun and neglected my testing duties :P

actosh · March 2016

Bash/interupt can proc it.