Why does everyone want to be equal?

rb2001 · July 2015

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

People are like feminists in this game. They want all the benefits of their class without the negatives; which is why you keep seeing Nightblades whine about not having instant heals and damage mitigation. Our class has awesome passives and damage, we need weaknesses in our defense in order to keep things balanced, otherwise we'll be just as overpowered as Imperials.

Yep. Many players don't to accept responsibility for choices, or the pros and cons of things.

There are some who want to wear "RP" clothes, but have their full armor stats (I call this pretend RP, as real RP would dictate that in your clothing, you accept that you aren't really ready for battle, you'd have to go get dressed in your armor).

They want to play their DPS NB, but heal like a Tank or Templar.

They want to be better than everyone else, but no one else to be better than them.

They want rewards, but no one else to have rewards that they don't have.

DenMoria · July 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?

I guess I'll just adventure everywhere else until I get bored and then put TESO aside until I'm ready to go get slaughtered again.

Sorry - I just don't have the time or the interest to V or CP myself to max to simply survive in 2/3rds of the game.

I want to play to enjoy and I do not enjoy competing against players that are and will always be better than this old man.

Okay - all 15 players to max I can without going to Cyrodil and then back to Oblivion, Skyrim DA and DD I guess.

Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?

This is a learn to play issue, and is no reason for ZOS to model the game to your lack of willpower.

One thing I've learned in life is that the people who say they can't do something are really good at convincing themselves they can't, and expecting someone else to make a change for them to make up for it.

It's a game. You can be as good as anyone else playing, if you really put your mind to it. Or maybe you just don't want to, and that's fine to, but if so, don't expect to compete with those to whom this game is serious business.

ZOS can change this game any way under the sun, easier, harder, longer to advance, quicker, pay to max your character, and the end result will be the same:

Those better players than you will still be better by the same relative amount, because they put more into it, and people who are worse will still whine and expect the developers to make up for their own personal lack of effort or shortcomings.

Where did I say anywhere about ZOS changing anything? It was purely a criticism towards myself. ZOS did a great job doing what they do. While I love ESO, don't get me wrong, it's becoming obvious that, as a long-term game for me, it probably won't be. I'm trying to learn, but finding it endlessly frustrating.

I just don't have the competitive, endlessly grinding nature for it. I could care less about "accomplishments", "trophies", V ranks or CP's. It's my own weakness.

More power to those who can. I wish I could be the same, but it doesn't look like it at this point.

Oh. My apologies @DenMoria . I misread your post (going through things kind of quickly).

My response was aimed at a general population, anyhow, who have the kind of expectation that I described, and I wanted to make that point that in any balance system, the best players will still be the best, and there will still be those expecting the game to change in some way that they will be able to catch up artificially.

I can understand the frustration part. That is cool to just mention that.

While "Best" may be somewhat subjective, there are definitely some players of TESO that deserve the title. I am sometimes in awe of just what they can do when I watch some of the videos.

I can dream though, can't I.

DenMoria · July 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

Something that baffles me:

These newcomers want to be able to come in and be equal to the 2-year players, it seems.

They complain there is a gap that they cannot catch up to.

How would they feel if the situation were reversed? If they were here for 2 years, and new players came in in 2 weeks demanding that the gap is unfair. Would they feel like it is fair, because they have been there long enough to achieve these things and learn the game?

I know I'm a newbie and I certainly don't come anywhere near someone who's been at it for 2 years.

My only wish was that all you 2 year players wouldn't keep slaughtering me for fun when I get to Cyrodil. It's depressing.

rb2001 · July 2015

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?

I guess I'll just adventure everywhere else until I get bored and then put TESO aside until I'm ready to go get slaughtered again.

Sorry - I just don't have the time or the interest to V or CP myself to max to simply survive in 2/3rds of the game.

I want to play to enjoy and I do not enjoy competing against players that are and will always be better than this old man.

Okay - all 15 players to max I can without going to Cyrodil and then back to Oblivion, Skyrim DA and DD I guess.

Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?

This is a learn to play issue, and is no reason for ZOS to model the game to your lack of willpower.

One thing I've learned in life is that the people who say they can't do something are really good at convincing themselves they can't, and expecting someone else to make a change for them to make up for it.

It's a game. You can be as good as anyone else playing, if you really put your mind to it. Or maybe you just don't want to, and that's fine to, but if so, don't expect to compete with those to whom this game is serious business.

ZOS can change this game any way under the sun, easier, harder, longer to advance, quicker, pay to max your character, and the end result will be the same:

Those better players than you will still be better by the same relative amount, because they put more into it, and people who are worse will still whine and expect the developers to make up for their own personal lack of effort or shortcomings.

Where did I say anywhere about ZOS changing anything? It was purely a criticism towards myself. ZOS did a great job doing what they do. While I love ESO, don't get me wrong, it's becoming obvious that, as a long-term game for me, it probably won't be. I'm trying to learn, but finding it endlessly frustrating.

I just don't have the competitive, endlessly grinding nature for it. I could care less about "accomplishments", "trophies", V ranks or CP's. It's my own weakness.

More power to those who can. I wish I could be the same, but it doesn't look like it at this point.

Oh. My apologies @DenMoria . I misread your post (going through things kind of quickly).

My response was aimed at a general population, anyhow, who have the kind of expectation that I described, and I wanted to make that point that in any balance system, the best players will still be the best, and there will still be those expecting the game to change in some way that they will be able to catch up artificially.

I can understand the frustration part. That is cool to just mention that.

While "Best" may be somewhat subjective, there are definitely some players of TESO that deserve the title. I am sometimes in awe of just what they can do when I watch some of the videos.

I can dream though, can't I.

Right.

While ZOS can be expected to (1) provide a balanced system between various playstyles, and (2) ensure that every player has equal access (eventually with play input), they should not be expected to make catch-up mechanics or other artificial ways to level the playing field for those who haven't put in the time.

DenMoria · July 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?

I guess I'll just adventure everywhere else until I get bored and then put TESO aside until I'm ready to go get slaughtered again.

Sorry - I just don't have the time or the interest to V or CP myself to max to simply survive in 2/3rds of the game.

I want to play to enjoy and I do not enjoy competing against players that are and will always be better than this old man.

Okay - all 15 players to max I can without going to Cyrodil and then back to Oblivion, Skyrim DA and DD I guess.

Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?

This is a learn to play issue, and is no reason for ZOS to model the game to your lack of willpower.

One thing I've learned in life is that the people who say they can't do something are really good at convincing themselves they can't, and expecting someone else to make a change for them to make up for it.

It's a game. You can be as good as anyone else playing, if you really put your mind to it. Or maybe you just don't want to, and that's fine to, but if so, don't expect to compete with those to whom this game is serious business.

ZOS can change this game any way under the sun, easier, harder, longer to advance, quicker, pay to max your character, and the end result will be the same:

Those better players than you will still be better by the same relative amount, because they put more into it, and people who are worse will still whine and expect the developers to make up for their own personal lack of effort or shortcomings.

Where did I say anywhere about ZOS changing anything? It was purely a criticism towards myself. ZOS did a great job doing what they do. While I love ESO, don't get me wrong, it's becoming obvious that, as a long-term game for me, it probably won't be. I'm trying to learn, but finding it endlessly frustrating.

I just don't have the competitive, endlessly grinding nature for it. I could care less about "accomplishments", "trophies", V ranks or CP's. It's my own weakness.

More power to those who can. I wish I could be the same, but it doesn't look like it at this point.

Oh. My apologies @DenMoria . I misread your post (going through things kind of quickly).

My response was aimed at a general population, anyhow, who have the kind of expectation that I described, and I wanted to make that point that in any balance system, the best players will still be the best, and there will still be those expecting the game to change in some way that they will be able to catch up artificially.

I can understand the frustration part. That is cool to just mention that.

While "Best" may be somewhat subjective, there are definitely some players of TESO that deserve the title. I am sometimes in awe of just what they can do when I watch some of the videos.

I can dream though, can't I.

Right.

While ZOS can be expected to (1) provide a balanced system between various playstyles, and (2) ensure that every player has equal access (eventually with play input), they should not be expected to make catch-up mechanics or other artificial ways to level the playing field for those who haven't put in the time.

I'm hoping that one of my toons will actually keep me interested and I can max something out. We'll see though.

I wonder if it will be the Nord Templar or one of my Orc builds, although I am getting quite fond of my Argo DragonKinght with her albino looks and my Bosmer archer really kick's a**, but then there's my Imperial DragonKnight and my Altmer Sorcerers... hmmm....

MrGhosty · July 2015

Azalin76 wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

The concept of levels in an RPG comes from a time when RPGs were played in your head with the aid of a character sheet, a pencil and a book. Levels are an abstraction of skill, and it was a brilliant idea back then.

When you play a combat focused online RPG that has a complex combat mechanic - like ESO - there is no need for levels any more. There is no need for the aforementioned abstraction, because you can actually practice and learn how to play better. The traditional RPG levels are thus an antiquated relic, that works decently well in single player games (but they usually have to scale the content somehow for the concept to be applicable - pretty idiotic), and it does not work at all in a competitive multiplayer game.

I am all for spicing up an online game with horizontal progression systems, such as skills and gear and vanity elements and convenience items, all of which you can earn by playing well. Hell, I'll be fine if you get vanity rewards for grinding.

But let us please accept the fact that it's not 1981 any longer, and that we can now have online RPGs without levels and without awarding no-lifers with hard-coded power advantages.

I wrote my own rant post here, btw: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/192499/cp-debate-some-people-apparently-need-a-power-advantage-to-compensate-for-lack-of-skill

I used to be a huge D&D player and it was the same way back then as in eso, if I had a character that I used for 3 years who had seen a lot of battle and did a lot of questing and was max level, wouldnt it be expected that a character like that would be more powerful that another who just reached max level? This is the part that I don't understand, at max level it seems that everyone wants to be equal in power and have no progression after that. It just makes no sense.

I think people are over simplifying to villify the legitimate points made by many veteran players. I cannot speak for all of their intentions but Myself and those I've seen voice their opinions have no issue with levels, progression or any that other stuff. The issue is that the CS provides vertical progression that means there are growing ranks of power between players. The DnD analogy doesn't really work because your DnD character would be more powerful as they had been fighting for years so their SKILL had increased. So let's use your example to provide another analogy; You've been playing your DnD character in PvP for the last three years, you're at max level, you've acquired the needed gear but your rate of XP earnings isn't great. Now imagine another player who has spent half of that time out in PvE mindlessly grinding mobs for longer play sessions than you and popping XP potions like tic tacs. That player then decides to come into PvP and you face off with them, with the example I gave if you were a highly skilled PvP player you would probably be able to just barely overcome Mr PvE but just barely since he had more champion points than you and he only just started playing PvP today!

This example is obviously a bit hyperbolic but it highlights the inherent flaw of the CS and the reason so many are speaking out against it. If the Champion system only had horizontal progression, it would allow the players who had the time to put in and develop their skill to really shine and in many cases they would remain stronger than new players just starting out. HOWEVER, that skill gap would be something easily closed by the new player and seeing you be awesome in PvP would be aspirational as opposed to disheartening. Fair does not mean equal. We want a fair system, not an equal system.

rb2001 · July 2015

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?

I guess I'll just adventure everywhere else until I get bored and then put TESO aside until I'm ready to go get slaughtered again.

Sorry - I just don't have the time or the interest to V or CP myself to max to simply survive in 2/3rds of the game.

I want to play to enjoy and I do not enjoy competing against players that are and will always be better than this old man.

Okay - all 15 players to max I can without going to Cyrodil and then back to Oblivion, Skyrim DA and DD I guess.

Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?

This is a learn to play issue, and is no reason for ZOS to model the game to your lack of willpower.

One thing I've learned in life is that the people who say they can't do something are really good at convincing themselves they can't, and expecting someone else to make a change for them to make up for it.

It's a game. You can be as good as anyone else playing, if you really put your mind to it. Or maybe you just don't want to, and that's fine to, but if so, don't expect to compete with those to whom this game is serious business.

ZOS can change this game any way under the sun, easier, harder, longer to advance, quicker, pay to max your character, and the end result will be the same:

Those better players than you will still be better by the same relative amount, because they put more into it, and people who are worse will still whine and expect the developers to make up for their own personal lack of effort or shortcomings.

Where did I say anywhere about ZOS changing anything? It was purely a criticism towards myself. ZOS did a great job doing what they do. While I love ESO, don't get me wrong, it's becoming obvious that, as a long-term game for me, it probably won't be. I'm trying to learn, but finding it endlessly frustrating.

I just don't have the competitive, endlessly grinding nature for it. I could care less about "accomplishments", "trophies", V ranks or CP's. It's my own weakness.

More power to those who can. I wish I could be the same, but it doesn't look like it at this point.

Oh. My apologies @DenMoria . I misread your post (going through things kind of quickly).

My response was aimed at a general population, anyhow, who have the kind of expectation that I described, and I wanted to make that point that in any balance system, the best players will still be the best, and there will still be those expecting the game to change in some way that they will be able to catch up artificially.

I can understand the frustration part. That is cool to just mention that.

While "Best" may be somewhat subjective, there are definitely some players of TESO that deserve the title. I am sometimes in awe of just what they can do when I watch some of the videos.

I can dream though, can't I.

Right.

While ZOS can be expected to (1) provide a balanced system between various playstyles, and (2) ensure that every player has equal access (eventually with play input), they should not be expected to make catch-up mechanics or other artificial ways to level the playing field for those who haven't put in the time.

I'm hoping that one of my toons will actually keep me interested and I can max something out. We'll see though.

I wonder if it will be the Nord Templar or one of my Orc builds, although I am getting quite fond of my Argo DragonKinght with her albino looks and my Bosmer archer really kick's a**, but then there's my Imperial DragonKnight and my Altmer Sorcerers... hmmm....

Honestly, maybe just pick one main and play only or mostly that.

I only really play one. I think people get so sidetracked that they end up trying to do too much, and no wonder it feels like a grind trying to level 5 players, get them all to VR14, do all the quests 15 times over, make sets for all of them..

If you devote all of your ESO time to one character, and make that your persona here, you can make that one persona go a lot further.

Furthermore, all your learning/advancement goes to one pool, and you'll get really good at playing that one style/character, and most likely feel more immersed and invested into it (and not so burnt out all the time).

DenMoria · July 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?

I guess I'll just adventure everywhere else until I get bored and then put TESO aside until I'm ready to go get slaughtered again.

Sorry - I just don't have the time or the interest to V or CP myself to max to simply survive in 2/3rds of the game.

I want to play to enjoy and I do not enjoy competing against players that are and will always be better than this old man.

Okay - all 15 players to max I can without going to Cyrodil and then back to Oblivion, Skyrim DA and DD I guess.

Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?

This is a learn to play issue, and is no reason for ZOS to model the game to your lack of willpower.

One thing I've learned in life is that the people who say they can't do something are really good at convincing themselves they can't, and expecting someone else to make a change for them to make up for it.

It's a game. You can be as good as anyone else playing, if you really put your mind to it. Or maybe you just don't want to, and that's fine to, but if so, don't expect to compete with those to whom this game is serious business.

ZOS can change this game any way under the sun, easier, harder, longer to advance, quicker, pay to max your character, and the end result will be the same:

Those better players than you will still be better by the same relative amount, because they put more into it, and people who are worse will still whine and expect the developers to make up for their own personal lack of effort or shortcomings.

Where did I say anywhere about ZOS changing anything? It was purely a criticism towards myself. ZOS did a great job doing what they do. While I love ESO, don't get me wrong, it's becoming obvious that, as a long-term game for me, it probably won't be. I'm trying to learn, but finding it endlessly frustrating.

I just don't have the competitive, endlessly grinding nature for it. I could care less about "accomplishments", "trophies", V ranks or CP's. It's my own weakness.

More power to those who can. I wish I could be the same, but it doesn't look like it at this point.

Oh. My apologies @DenMoria . I misread your post (going through things kind of quickly).

My response was aimed at a general population, anyhow, who have the kind of expectation that I described, and I wanted to make that point that in any balance system, the best players will still be the best, and there will still be those expecting the game to change in some way that they will be able to catch up artificially.

I can understand the frustration part. That is cool to just mention that.

While "Best" may be somewhat subjective, there are definitely some players of TESO that deserve the title. I am sometimes in awe of just what they can do when I watch some of the videos.

I can dream though, can't I.

Right.

While ZOS can be expected to (1) provide a balanced system between various playstyles, and (2) ensure that every player has equal access (eventually with play input), they should not be expected to make catch-up mechanics or other artificial ways to level the playing field for those who haven't put in the time.

I'm hoping that one of my toons will actually keep me interested and I can max something out. We'll see though.

I wonder if it will be the Nord Templar or one of my Orc builds, although I am getting quite fond of my Argo DragonKinght with her albino looks and my Bosmer archer really kick's a**, but then there's my Imperial DragonKnight and my Altmer Sorcerers... hmmm....

Honestly, maybe just pick one main and play only or mostly that.

I only really play one. I think people get so sidetracked that they end up trying to do too much, and no wonder it feels like a grind trying to level 5 players, get them all to VR14, do all the quests 15 times over, make sets for all of them..

If you devote all of your ESO time to one character, and make that your persona here, you can make that one persona go a lot further.

Furthermore, all your learning/advancement goes to one pool, and you'll get really good at playing that one style/character, and moshttp://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/t likely feel more immersed and invested into it (and not so burnt out all the time).

I agree. I just haven't found one I've fallen in love with yet. I will though!

Semfim · July 2015

rb2001 wrote: »

Right.

While ZOS can be expected to (1) provide a balanced system between various playstyles, and (2) ensure that every player has equal access (eventually with play input), they should not be expected to make catch-up mechanics or other artificial ways to level the playing field for those who haven't put in the time.

Wrong.

Let me go back to "Play as you Want" (guess the 2 year ones will understand = wtf game was released in 2014 ) that was what we signed up for. Play as you want does not mean endless grind to have a chance in AvA (like it or not a BIG part of the game) or PvE. My "play as I want" means putting in 20 hours a week tops and still have access to most of the game on a relatively even platform. Your "play as you want" means you get to do nothing else with your life (to which you are entitled to) TO have an edge over the average schmuck who happens to have other stuff in his life (=me).

Now, which of those "play as you want" seems to be more about "YOU" than "OVER OTHERS"?? And don't feed me competitiveness bull... if you want competitiveness you should like an even playing field! Its like going on a marathon, getting a 20 km advance, getting water spoon fed by the refs while doing the Maradonna AND THEN saying "you lousy punk, its not my fault you suck!".

Reminds me of RL for some reason

ItsRejectz · July 2015

Sick and tired of people saying it's not fair on new players being so much weaker.. Sorry, but how exactly is it fair for long term players who have worked hard to get where they are, to be gimmped to acomodate for people who have hardly played the game?

Lynx7386 · July 2015

People dont want to be equal. They want an illusion of official equality to exist, with as much favor tipped in their personal direction as possible.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

To the OP. Yes, it seems people want to turn this game into a FPS shooter. On a serious note, anyone who can't handle someone being better or having an advandate due to gear or passives, should not be playing an RPG or a MMOG in the first place.

tordr86b16_ESO · July 2015

Semfim wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

Right.

While ZOS can be expected to (1) provide a balanced system between various playstyles, and (2) ensure that every player has equal access (eventually with play input), they should not be expected to make catch-up mechanics or other artificial ways to level the playing field for those who haven't put in the time.

Wrong.

Let me go back to "Play as you Want" (guess the 2 year ones will understand = wtf game was released in 2014 ) that was what we signed up for. Play as you want does not mean endless grind to have a chance in AvA (like it or not a BIG part of the game) or PvE. My "play as I want" means putting in 20 hours a week tops and still have access to most of the game on a relatively even platform. Your "play as you want" means you get to do nothing else with your life (to which you are entitled to) TO have an edge over the average schmuck who happens to have other stuff in his life (=me).

Now, which of those "play as you want" seems to be more about "YOU" than "OVER OTHERS"?? And don't feed me competitiveness bull... if you want competitiveness you should like an even playing field! Its like going on a marathon, getting a 20 km advance, getting water spoon fed by the refs while doing the Maradonna AND THEN saying "you lousy punk, its not my fault you suck!".

Reminds me of RL for some reason

If you can't take someone down because he has 1. more CP 2. more VR 3. better gear then you get help. It's simple as that...

DenMoria · July 2015

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Semfim wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

Right.

While ZOS can be expected to (1) provide a balanced system between various playstyles, and (2) ensure that every player has equal access (eventually with play input), they should not be expected to make catch-up mechanics or other artificial ways to level the playing field for those who haven't put in the time.

Wrong.

Let me go back to "Play as you Want" (guess the 2 year ones will understand = wtf game was released in 2014 ) that was what we signed up for. Play as you want does not mean endless grind to have a chance in AvA (like it or not a BIG part of the game) or PvE. My "play as I want" means putting in 20 hours a week tops and still have access to most of the game on a relatively even platform. Your "play as you want" means you get to do nothing else with your life (to which you are entitled to) TO have an edge over the average schmuck who happens to have other stuff in his life (=me).

Now, which of those "play as you want" seems to be more about "YOU" than "OVER OTHERS"?? And don't feed me competitiveness bull... if you want competitiveness you should like an even playing field! Its like going on a marathon, getting a 20 km advance, getting water spoon fed by the refs while doing the Maradonna AND THEN saying "you lousy punk, its not my fault you suck!".

Reminds me of RL for some reason

If you can't take someone down because he has 1. more CP 2. more VR 3. better gear then you get help. It's simple as that...

But I'm an American! We NEVER ask for help. We threaten you and, if you don't give in, we shoot you.

ZOS_MaryB · July 2015

Hi, everyone. We understand that people are going to disagree from time to time, but please remember to keep your comments respectful at all times on our forums, even when you disagree with others. Insults or other disruptive behavior do not help further discussion and can move a thread off topic quickly. We encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they are constructively stated when doing so, as this will help keep the discussion on track. Thank you!

nimander99 · July 2015

ch.ris317b14_ESO wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

For the same reason steroids are illegal in progessional sports, and you get kicked out of a badeball game for putting too much pine tar on your bat.

LOL, thats an absurd comparison and I call you on it! Time is not equal to steroid use, time spent playing is equal to the thousands of hours one would spend throwing, hitting, lifting and fielding grounders... which is EXACTLY the point O.P is making!

rb2001 · July 2015

Semfim wrote: »

rb2001 wrote: »

Right.

While ZOS can be expected to (1) provide a balanced system between various playstyles, and (2) ensure that every player has equal access (eventually with play input), they should not be expected to make catch-up mechanics or other artificial ways to level the playing field for those who haven't put in the time.

Wrong.

Let me go back to "Play as you Want" (guess the 2 year ones will understand = wtf game was released in 2014 ) that was what we signed up for. Play as you want does not mean endless grind to have a chance in AvA (like it or not a BIG part of the game) or PvE. My "play as I want" means putting in 20 hours a week tops and still have access to most of the game on a relatively even platform. Your "play as you want" means you get to do nothing else with your life (to which you are entitled to) TO have an edge over the average schmuck who happens to have other stuff in his life (=me).

Now, which of those "play as you want" seems to be more about "YOU" than "OVER OTHERS"?? And don't feed me competitiveness bull... if you want competitiveness you should like an even playing field! Its like going on a marathon, getting a 20 km advance, getting water spoon fed by the refs while doing the Maradonna AND THEN saying "you lousy punk, its not my fault you suck!".

Reminds me of RL for some reason

Ah, I guess my point was lost.

Honestly, that is not a very good analogy. A more accurate one for this case is that both marathon runners are free to practice, before the marathon, for as long as they want, to spend more time and build up their body for it, as well as their technique.

That is all there is to it.

The more prepared runner generally wins.

You really are free to play as you want. Only you can make you grind. It is up to you to determine what it's worth to go up against others player who have raised the bar (by the way, I don't claim to be one such player).

patrykplawskib16_ESO · July 2015

In some cases it is unfair, mostly on the pve side, you had people cheat there way to 400 cp some at 500 and some at 600 the gap is becoming bigger and bigger. It's the exploiters using exploits and keeping them a secret until zos finds out and it has happened and guess what they did to the player ?, they gave them a 1 day suspension and let them keep the cp. Zos them selves don't know how to run a game properly there a bunch of failures and and even with threads they could care less to read them and fix issues.

Azalin76 · July 2015

Isn't it set up that the more points you put into the passive it progressively gives you less and less of a bonus? So if I put 300 points in to reduce stam cost, isn't that barely much more than say 200 points? Maybe I would get 1 or 2 more percent out of the extra 100 points? Is that really a life or death scenerio? I'm not sure what the facts are and I have not seen any mock websites out there that allow us to play around with this to test it out. I know I have 30 points in it now and I only get around a 7% reduction. So if I get less and less the more points I put in, wouldn't I need like 150 points to make it to a 10% reduction? Then maybe 400 points to get to 15%?

Reeko · July 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it?

No, it's not.

It's not that time investment in the game should not be rewarded, it's about the scale of the gap this investment creates. Different people might find different amounts appropriate, but I have never seen an MMO with such an outrageously long grind to create a maxed out character.

Ok i am sorry but i have to comment on what you said. Getting to max in this game does NOT take that long at all. If you don't count CP ofcourse. I have heard storys of people getting to vet14 within 2 weeks of console launch. You must not play many mmo's. I played Everquest for 2 years and never saw max level and i played everday. It took me months to get to lvl60 in WoW and i was out of school then. I honostly think most people are just too impatient these days. That or all the hardcore mmo gamers grew up and got jobs and now they can't play as much as they used to but they still want to be able to keep up with the younger kids.

Faulgor · July 2015

Reeko wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it?

No, it's not.

It's not that time investment in the game should not be rewarded, it's about the scale of the gap this investment creates. Different people might find different amounts appropriate, but I have never seen an MMO with such an outrageously long grind to create a maxed out character.

Ok i am sorry but i have to comment on what you said. Getting to max in this game does NOT take that long at all. If you don't count CP ofcourse. I have heard storys of people getting to vet14 within 2 weeks of console launch. You must not play many mmo's. I played Everquest for 2 years and never saw max level and i played everday. It took me months to get to lvl60 in WoW and i was out of school then. I honostly think most people are just too impatient these days. That or all the hardcore mmo gamers grew up and got jobs and now they can't play as much as they used to but they still want to be able to keep up with the younger kids.

Of course I was talking about CP. What did you think

?

Reeko · July 2015

Faulgor wrote: »

Reeko wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it?

No, it's not.

It's not that time investment in the game should not be rewarded, it's about the scale of the gap this investment creates. Different people might find different amounts appropriate, but I have never seen an MMO with such an outrageously long grind to create a maxed out character.

Ok i am sorry but i have to comment on what you said. Getting to max in this game does NOT take that long at all. If you don't count CP ofcourse. I have heard storys of people getting to vet14 within 2 weeks of console launch. You must not play many mmo's. I played Everquest for 2 years and never saw max level and i played everday. It took me months to get to lvl60 in WoW and i was out of school then. I honostly think most people are just too impatient these days. That or all the hardcore mmo gamers grew up and got jobs and now they can't play as much as they used to but they still want to be able to keep up with the younger kids.

Of course I was talking about CP. What did you think ?

Is there a cap on CP? And does that not take years to attain if there is? And i don't think CP counts as your level. So getting to max level (which for me is v14 currently) does not take that long compared to the games i mentioned. Which was my point that you missed or decided not to address.

Btw the first sentance of the second paragraph contradicts itself. You said: "it's not that time investment in the game should not be rewarded, it's about the scale of the gap this investment creates."

Ofcourse there is going to be a gap! You play 1 hour a day i play 10. That is a 9 hour difference right? In 2 days you put in 2 hours and i now have 20. The gap is now 18 hours. If your toon is just as strong stat-wise as mine at that point then how is that fair?

BurtFreeman · July 2015

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

i don't really understand your talking!
where is role playing in cp system, when you are getting hundreads points from another alt at the starting prison?
role is mean to be played with one character, not with an account!
role playing an account is a different game, it is called banking!
think aboit it.

Faulgor · July 2015

Reeko wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Reeko wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Azalin76 wrote: »

If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it?

No, it's not.

It's not that time investment in the game should not be rewarded, it's about the scale of the gap this investment creates. Different people might find different amounts appropriate, but I have never seen an MMO with such an outrageously long grind to create a maxed out character.

Ok i am sorry but i have to comment on what you said. Getting to max in this game does NOT take that long at all. If you don't count CP ofcourse. I have heard storys of people getting to vet14 within 2 weeks of console launch. You must not play many mmo's. I played Everquest for 2 years and never saw max level and i played everday. It took me months to get to lvl60 in WoW and i was out of school then. I honostly think most people are just too impatient these days. That or all the hardcore mmo gamers grew up and got jobs and now they can't play as much as they used to but they still want to be able to keep up with the younger kids.

Of course I was talking about CP. What did you think ?

Is there a cap on CP? And does that not take years to attain if there is? And i don't think CP counts as your level. So getting to max level (which for me is v14 currently) does not take that long compared to the games i mentioned. Which was my point that you missed or decided not to address.

Btw the first sentance of the second paragraph contradicts itself. You said: "it's not that time investment in the game should not be rewarded, it's about the scale of the gap this investment creates."

Ofcourse there is going to be a gap! You play 1 hour a day i play 10. That is a 9 hour difference right? In 2 days you put in 2 hours and i now have 20. The gap is now 18 hours. If your toon is just as strong stat-wise as mine at that point then how is that fair?

If you don't want to count CP here I don't know what else to say. It's a vertical progression system that increases your character's power, and it simply takes longer than most MMOs I've seen with similar systems - and I usually like the Korean grind style.

And I don't know what contradiction you are talking about. I made it pretty clear that the issue for most people is the scale of the gap, not the fact that there is a gap itself.

Anhedonie · July 2015

Azalin76 wrote: »

I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?

Nah, you got it wrong.
You'll understand what's wrong when you won't be able to get in any dungeon anymore, because of your low amout of CP. So it will become a singleplayer game for you. That's what people are afraid of.
Just imagine, a guy picks up a game, spends 300 hrs to level up and stuff to find out that he can't do endgame content, because nobody wants to take him and he has to spend 700 more hours to get enough CP. But the thing is, while he spents that amount of time, CP cap will be raised even more (among players ofc, like Brad has 2000 CP and Fred has 2600 CP and so on. You got an idea, I guess.), so he will be left behind forever.

ragespell · July 2015

Some of you really don't get it.
One year from now, no one will play this game with the current CS.
Because:
- or Zos will deliver ridicously easy content, and everybody will leave bored to death
- or Zos will deliver hard content for the players with 1000+ CP, and everybody else will have to wait till they get there. And a new player will have to grind one year to be able to do the same content. What do you think will happen? Yeah, right! People will leave in droves.

This is not a [SNIP] single player game, where you can become god, and destroy entire cities with your death's ray of vengeance.

A game that rewards grinder and have no catch up mechanism, will die sooner rather than later.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Profanity]

NeillMcAttack · July 2015

I just want to those that feel the will get "slaughtered" at the low levels that, I jumped into to Cyrodiil at lvl 24 now lvl 29 from just doing bounties there and taking/defending keeps, and I don't only 'feel' I contribute but I know I do.
Just stay with groups, use siege weapons, and remember, disables still disable heals still heal and tanks still tank. Pick up some support skills for even more contribution.

Anyway, as for the CP system I don't know enough yet to really judge but I will say that it's more a numbers game than anything else so staying in large groups not many can stand in your way.

spoqster · July 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

I can't stand it when people say they want horizontal progression for end game content in MMOs. It doesn't fit. You spend hours and hours doing vertical progression in the form of levels only to have it cease entirely?

Why do you think GW2's player base is so pitifully low? It takes 50 hours to hit level 80 and then there's ZERO progression. You're done. Ya, there's stuff to do, but what's the point?

Your character gets nothing out of horizontal progression except for more "build paths", and if you're playing to be the strongest (and complete the content) then none of those extra things matter. You'll simply always use the strongest build. If you're playing to have fun (and complete the content), then that means the content in the game is balanced so that you can succeed no matter what you do, and no decision you make truly matters.

MMOs NEED vertical progression. They're founded on it. You can call it endless grinding or a treadmill or whatever you want, but it's always the same. MMOs need that mechanic in order to succeed.

Champion Points are no different. The only problem with them right now is that there's a lack of content as you progress through the system and obtain more Champion Points.

Well @MCMancub, I just don't believe they do, not for endgame. Vertical progression is great in the beginning to transform you from a nut into a fighter. But in a multiplayer game the social aspect is the most important part of the game. That social gameplay can be competitive and casual PVP and PVE, group questing and other things. But all of these things require players to be roughly on the same level to be fun. A vertical progression system is the root for all of these problems. It unbalances PVP and PVE leaderboards and it makes it difficult for players who have put different amounts of time into the game difficult to play together. A horizontal progression system solves all these problems and gives players plenty of incentive to play. Players just need to be re-educated. They need to learn that it's more fun to play a HPS based game. Currently many players just can't envision a horizontal progression system. That's all. But that doesn't mean it won't be better.

No, they don't. You can disagree all you want, but GW2 is a strictly HPS game at end game and it has fallen flat on its face.

Please define for me what you think "social gameplay" is. What you just described is how League of Legends works, and I've never played a game with more toxicity and hate for the people you're playing with in my entire life.

The root of competition is the desire to win a prize. That prize can be physical or metaphysical, but it exists. There is no motivation to compete if there is nothing to win.

Stripping down competition to skill alone sounds like a great idea. Everyone is on a even playing field and the player who is the most skilled wins. That's great. What do they win? If all PvP is comprised of is killing others for fun based on skill, what's the point? If all PvE is comprised of is killing a boss for fun based on skill, what's the point? There has to be a reward, and that reward will always divide players into groups: those who have obtained the reward and those who haven't.

Vertical Progression is by no means perfect or fallible, but Horizontal Progression gets nothing right that actually matters in an MMO, which is longevity in the game.

EDIT: We can argue semantically about what kind of reward is the best reward. GW2 thought providing costumes and aesthetics would keep players but it clearly didn't. WoW tried by offering power. ESO has both.

Hey @MCMancub, I fail to understand why you are hating on GW2 so much. Everyone I have ever talked to who has played GW2 absolutely loves the game. And everyone I have ever talked to who has played WoW left the game because they got tired of the item treadmill. Of course my personal conversations are in no way representative, but I am not sure the absolute player number is either. If you put GW2 success into perspective in terms of not building on a franchise like Warcraft or the Elder Scrolls, I think they're doing quite well. My biggest gripe with it is that it's still a point and click game, and those times are over.

Also, I am completely fine with awarding rewards to players in the form of gear. But you should earn these rewards through skill rather than just investing time. Of course not all players should be equal. They never have and they never will. All I am saying is that flatly increasing damage and resistance numbers creates more problems than it solves.

spoqster · July 2015

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

This a topic that will never be won. Reason being because there is no "right" side.

Those that enjoy and desire RPG gameplay and game design fundamentally enjoy a completely different reward system than those that like and desire action/adventure or FPS and sports games.

RPG gameplay rewards players wins, by granting skill (vertical progression)
ACTION/adventure/FPS/Sports gameplay rewards player physical skill, by granting wins. (Horrizontal progression)

Horizontal requires a level playing field, because otherwise what it's rewards (wins), mean nothing.
Vertical progression requires power gaps otherwise it's rewards (skill/power), mean nothing.

Regardless of those that use it as an attack (which it shouldn't), it IS about gratification, like all reward systems.

Horizontal progression: Reward system instantly gratifies
Vertical progression: Reward system delays gratification

In my opinion, introducing PVE/PVP leaderboards was a massive mistake, and the should of stuck to high end raid content tied into itemization/crafting. I think ZOS didn't understand traditionally why guilds raided or why PVPers PVP. Guilds/players that traditionally would partake in RPG PVP and endgame PVE raid content, simply are NOT the same players that raid/PVP for leaderboards. This leads to those competitive gamers that are justifiably interested in partaking in endgame PVE/PVP leaderboards (after all it was designed for them) being put off by pretty much everything else in the game that is RPG centric. The fact that a sword does more damage at lvl 50, than it does at lvl 1... is maddening. Equally maddening to an RPG player are things like hard and soft caps, battle leveling, and AOE caps.

NEITHER is bad, nor evil. They are just different. Some want this to be COD, some want it to be EQ/DAoC/Ultimate Online. The problem is its trying to be both.

Hey @michaelb14a_ESO2, I am not entirely sure you completely understand what horizontal progression means.

Horizontal progression means you get more and more choices all of which are ideally equal in power. Skills progression and item progression are the most obvious examples of horizontal progression systems.

You can never have a completely horizontal progression system as that would require a perfect balance. So the goal is to get it as flat as possible without making it redundant. And it's usually a good idea to mix in vertical elements, such as with ESO's skill trees or the item quality in the item system.

Fifa's Ultimate Team online mode is also a good example for a horizontal progression system. The RPG analogy is the process of building a better team by acquiring players, that's pretty much the same as leveling your character, or better equipping your character with gear. Fifa's system is essentially a vertical progression system that looks like an inverted hockey stick. It's so flat on top that it works like a horizontal system. So what happens is that you can build a decent team in a few weeks (or a single day if you play hardcore), and then you'll reach a point where the next logical player you'll want to buy will cost as much as the whole team so far. That's the bend in the hockey stick. From then on the progression aspect slows down and players focus more on improving their game. The progression is infinite because the most expensive players cost 2 million gold, while you earn get 500 gold for playing one game. So there is always a big, juicy carrot far, far away, but you don't care that you can't reach it, because there is always a smaller carrot around the corner which is not as juicy as the big one, but more juicy than the ones you've got.

Another important aspect of horizontal progression is a limited number of slots, so that you have to exchange something you unlocked for something you already had. That's the way it works with gear, skills and players in your Fifa UT team. Once you pass the hockey stick bend in Fifa, more often than not you end up exchanging players of the same power because the new player better fits your play style. Sometimes you will even switch out a better player for a worse player, if you can play better with the worse player. This act of gaining power by sacrificing numbers for style is a perfect example for what a horizontal progression system should provide.

ElricFrancis · July 2015

Endless-Shogun wrote: »

@ElricFrancis
I'm sorry but I won't believe that.
I've put at least 300 hours in so far, and have only grinded once (for 3 hours), and I'm just now at v4.
I want to create one of each class, at least.

What are you doing to your game? lol

@ch.ris317
I put tons of hours into Skyrim, because it was fun, but once I got to about 450 hours, it was empty... no quests left. Super high level, I literally only quit playing it because there wasn't anything else to do. I dont ever see Witcher getting anywhere near that amount of content.

BTW, I am not the hardcore type you're referring too. I play a lot, but by no means hardcore or I'd have 2 or 3 vets by this point. I am enjoying the game.

I understand denial. I was like that at first for Destiny. I hope reality doesn't settle on you because then you noticed the time you wasted grinding that you originally thought was enjoyable content.

But in the end it sounds like there is nothing after 50 but grind. Only thing about this game better than others is there isn't another expansion pack around the corner you pay money for that lasts 5 minutes.

If they don't act in another six months I'd say the console version of this game will be dead similar like that of the PC version.