Scaled / Paid DLC is a bad mix and future prediction

Elron87 · February 2015

My biggest issue with the direction the elder scrolls online is heading is their attempt to cater to casual players with new DLC content for the sake of revenue (zones and quests). New players dont need it!! they need to play the rest of the game and experience the story!! and by scaling level you ruin the immersion and sense of achievement and privilege of being able to access new end game content and experience more events unfolding in the world. After I defeat Molag Bal I would be more tempted to buy a dlc to see what happens next, gain access to new gear, meet new (hopefully important) characters etc, versus buying a dlc for the sake of a half baked zoned story, scaled to my level, and finish it with no real sense of purpose or accomplishment.

My other gripe is the eventual pay wall paid dlc will create in addition to it being scaled to level for casual players. Put it this way.. after about say.. 5-10 dlc releases.. If im a new player and want to play with some friends who have been playing for a while or want to experience all the content, I have just paid $60-$90 for the game (depending where you live) and now I must now pay another ($60-$90) to catch up on dlc or sub/rent it for $15 a month?! Both options suck!! Renting content is the worst idea and doomed to fail. This is where a number of different arguments will begin, eg you just buy a specific dlc etc. I could continue with the scenarios and arguments for and against and you could continue to justify your own argument, but for the sake of simplicity and avoiding these arguments I suggest 1) remove level scaling 2) severely discount prior dlc upon release of new dlc and 3) remove renting dlc. If you want to give people a reason to subscribe offer dlc as a permanent perk of subscribing (fine tune the details so it isnt abused, eg people subscribing and un-subcribing)

To mitigate these issues common sense would be to keep dlc (zones/quests) exclusive to those who have actually completed the main story, and achieved maximum level, if you want to charge for DLC fine, have scaled discounts for the older dlc. E.g $5 for oldest dlc, $20 for the new stuff.

Now for my personal prediction based on trending events.

I predict you will be paying for DLC as a warm up towards F2P in which case it will be all FREE in 12-24 months time when revenue drops again. Every move Zenixmax make is cold hard and calculated to milk every cent of revenue. WE PAID FOR A BETA FOR THE LAST 12 MONTHS!!! They are now pressing new discs with all the updates to SELL AGAIN with an'optional' subscription, and a cash shop. Sounds like a bold and clever business decision? It is... and you paid for it.

Regardless of how you want to look at it I think paid/scaled dlc (new zones and quests scaled to everyone) TOGETHER is a bad idea. I believe there will be issues in terms of pay walls, and flow of effects of level scaling (finding groups, sense of immersion, story etc) and in the end when revenue drops because of this they will simply switch their business model again and begin the milking process all over.

Catering to too many play styles and trying to gain too many streams of revenue will be the undoing of elder scrolls online (as if it hasnt been damaged enough).

Karmine · February 2015

I completely disagree with your point.

When playing the Beta and after release. My friends and I always had one problem. We couldn't play together.

We were 3.......
We each Had Main Guy which we played solo.
Then we had two guys that we played with just one of us
And then we had fourth guy who was for when we were all online.

Quests aren't repeatable, you can't really skip quests and save them for your friends. Now we can however just buy a DLC... and when we are all online we can play DLC together.

It takes many hours of gaming to reach max level, and we can't play together until we finish that ?

Scaled content is a big boost.

Iago · February 2015

Deleted

c0rp · February 2015

Over time..DLCs that have come out and are older will be moved into the "main game" purchase I imagine. This prevents new players from having to pay a *** ton of money to catch up.

Elron87 · February 2015

Karmine wrote: »

I completely disagree with your point.

When playing the Beta and after release. My friends and I always had one problem. We couldn't play together.

We were 3.......
We each Had Main Guy which we played solo.
Then we had two guys that we played with just one of us
And then we had fourth guy who was for when we were all online.

Quests aren't repeatable, you can't really skip quests and save them for your friends. Now we can however just buy a DLC... and when we are all online we can play DLC together.

It takes many hours of gaming to reach max level, and we can't play together until we finish that ?

Scaled content is a big boost.

Fair point, although by joining your level 50 friends at say level 10 (catering for casuals) dont you feel this ruins any sense of immersion and accomplishment? I Going in with your level 10 character with low level gear and smashing some mobs in line with your level 50 mates who might be decked out in the best gear?

I also fear by scaling level and not being forced to play the main story, this will result in dull and dumbed down DLC stories. The devs will have to assume players entering each new zone have not played the main story or met its characters, and this in turn will stop the main story of the game itself progressing in any meaningfull way. This could also result in each zones story being disconnected from each other and the main story itself (as you choose which dlc/zone you want to pay/play and in what order).

Again the Devs will need to design each new DLC as if you the player have not played the main story of the game.

To prove my point, is it not already the case that each new zone you go into is continuing on the prior zone in a meaningfull way? Imagine if this wasnt the case.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2015

How about fixing/removing VR levels and the gold m silver quests first. This would allow many to play together at 50

Then expansions can actually progress the max character level beyond 50 vs VR levels. Although this scaled DLC idea seems like more problems than expansions. Guess it's just DLC.

Karmine · February 2015

Elron87 wrote: »

Fair point, although by joining your level 50 friends at say level 10 (catering for casuals) dont you feel this ruins any sense of immersion and accomplishment? I Going in with your level 10 character with low level gear and smashing some mobs in line with your level 50 mates who might be decked out in the best gear?

I also fear by scaling level and not being forced to play the main story, this will result in dull and dumbed down DLC stories. The devs will have to assume players entering each new zone have not played the main story or met its characters, and this in turn will stop the main story of the game itself progressing in any meaningfull way. This could also result in each zones story being disconnected from each other and the main story itself (as you choose which dlc/zone you want to pay/play and in what order).

Again the Devs will need to design each new DLC as if you the player have not played the main story of the game.

To prove my point, is it not already the case that each new zone you go into is continuing on the prior zone in a meaningfull way? Imagine if this wasnt the case.

At first you start to beat up Wolves as you become more seasoned you start killing bandits and in the end you are beating down enemy soldiers.... then you go to a new Zone and a wolf kills you. Doesn't that feel immersion breaking for you ?

What about after you beat Molag Bal you go join another Alliance... isn't that immersion breaking ?

How about you don't think about Levels in the game and tada no longer immersion breaking that a Recruit (level 10) is fighting beside a Veteran (level 50) sure he isn't doing as well as you most likely usually is how it works. You do not see a level 10 jumping in and killing ten Rank 14 Veteran in PvP do you ?

About the Main Story : Isn't the Main Story more or less about Molag Bal which is done through Harborage and each Zone has it's own Story Line and Twists.

Do remember that Main Story and Guild Story are "Single Player" so yea if they do add more to "Main Story" it will be Single Player.

So any DLC what so ever will be like any other Zone... seperate story.... You will be fixing problems with the Zone not fighting Molag Bal head to head or something.

So in the end Devs will make each new DLC Zone like they would had done with previous Zones. And when you reach each Milestone in Levels you will be summoned in Harborage to do Main Story line as always.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2015

This game is slowly...possibly going from closed BETA- awesome, difficult but a rewarding experience ....to soon becoming a WTH did I even buy this crap

Elron87 · February 2015

Karmine wrote: »

Elron87 wrote: »

Fair point, although by joining your level 50 friends at say level 10 (catering for casuals) dont you feel this ruins any sense of immersion and accomplishment? I Going in with your level 10 character with low level gear and smashing some mobs in line with your level 50 mates who might be decked out in the best gear?

I also fear by scaling level and not being forced to play the main story, this will result in dull and dumbed down DLC stories. The devs will have to assume players entering each new zone have not played the main story or met its characters, and this in turn will stop the main story of the game itself progressing in any meaningfull way. This could also result in each zones story being disconnected from each other and the main story itself (as you choose which dlc/zone you want to pay/play and in what order).

Again the Devs will need to design each new DLC as if you the player have not played the main story of the game.

To prove my point, is it not already the case that each new zone you go into is continuing on the prior zone in a meaningfull way? Imagine if this wasnt the case.

At first you start to beat up Wolves as you become more seasoned you start killing bandits and in the end you are beating down enemy soldiers.... then you go to a new Zone and a wolf kills you. Doesn't that feel immersion breaking for you ?

What about after you beat Molag Bal you go join another Alliance... isn't that immersion breaking ?

How about you don't think about Levels in the game and tada no longer immersion breaking that a Recruit (level 10) is fighting beside a Veteran (level 50) sure he isn't doing as well as you most likely usually is how it works. You do not see a level 10 jumping in and killing ten Rank 14 Veteran in PvP do you ?

About the Main Story : Isn't the Main Story more or less about Molag Bal which is done through Harborage and each Zone has it's own Story Line and Twists.

Do remember that Main Story and Guild Story are "Single Player" so yea if they do add more to "Main Story" it will be Single Player.

So any DLC what so ever will be like any other Zone... seperate story.... You will be fixing problems with the Zone not fighting Molag Bal head to head or something.

So in the end Devs will make each new DLC Zone like they would had done with previous Zones. And when you reach each Milestone in Levels you will be summoned in Harborage to do Main Story line as always.

I agree with your comment about the wolves, for a game that was promoted for immersion this is abit silly. But it does happen in alot of games, kind of hard to have unique and progressively 'tougher' looking mobs to suit your level.

I agree with you in relation to completing other faction quests after Molag Bal. I fear this was a direct result of the Veteran Rank disaster, Zenimax needed a content sink whilst they developed 'end game'. Problem was this broke immersion and provided so much content everyone got to level 50, found out they were 1/3 of the way to doing 'end game' dungeons and left from burnout. I doubt they will remove the option to quest in other factions with the removal of Veteran Ranks, which I believe they SHOULD.

Scaling content, even for pvp is immersion breaking, yes we could change the way we think about it but that doesnt change the facts and what everyone knows the elder scrolls to be. I know in some games scaling for pve content does work, EG Guild Wars 2 scales your level down and I had no problem with it (GW2 isnt very immersive and didnt advertise itself as such), my issue with the way Zenimax plan to scale entire zones upwards, is the continued immersion degredation, and the impact of the overall story of elder scrolls online, which leads me to your last point regarding zone stories. P.S Another 12 months and we will find ridiculous costumes and such in the cash shop, oh wait there is a draugr costume you can change in and out of at will, whats next?.

Aside from the harbourage quest line which did lead into some zones in some way or another, each zone had a main quest line that continued into the next, your ALLIANCE story. The alliance story was heavily linked to the trouble of each zone as a result of Molag Bals influence, all the way to the end in cold harbour.

I guess the main point of this entire discussion is Zenimax need to get back to its roots, get back to the roots of the elder scrolls, and what its fans love it for, stop degrading the game to attract in influx of casual players at the expense of the rest for nothing more then increasing revenue. They need to find a balance, otherwise in 12 months, we will find molag bal mounts, non existent story and clown costumes for the 12 year olds (oh wait, jester costume, close enough).

Karmine · February 2015

I hate to say this but even the mature will love Jester costume and such.

But you haven't done your Alliance Story since level 49 ?

Also talking about GW2, going to Low Level zone.. you easily kill stuff there.

I was doing more than double the dmg than people in right level.

Elron87 · February 2015

Karmine wrote: »

I hate to say this but even the mature will love Jester costume and such.

But you haven't done your Alliance Story since level 49 ?

Also talking about GW2, going to Low Level zone.. you easily kill stuff there.

I was doing more than double the dmg than people in right level.

I was one of the people that finished all the content in my alliance faction, did the other alliance zones for a while, got sick of the grind and being killed by beetles and rats. They addressed the difficulty of mobs but the immersion really got killed for me. Removing veteran ranks is a huge step in the right direction but Im afraid with every step forward, they will take two back. I would love to see the removal of being able to do the other faction zones. Kind of kills the experience of creating an alt and experiencing the other faction content in a meaningful way.

I never got to do 'end game' or what ever 'story' it tried to tell.

LtCrunch · February 2015

The player will scale up to the zones, the zones won't scale down to the player according to ZOS. So it will be similar to going into Cyrodiil and doing PVE content at level 10, it's doable sure but it will be a struggle. You won't be seeing a level 10 going into group dungeons or trials in these zones because they won't be able to cut it. If this is the case it's the best solution for everyone, IMO.

It means more freedom for those that want a more open-ended TES experience and difficult content for those at high levels that want it.

SteveCampsOut · February 2015

Karmine wrote: »

At first you start to beat up Wolves as you become more seasoned you start killing bandits and in the end you are beating down enemy soldiers.... then you go to a new Zone and a wolf kills you. Doesn't that feel immersion breaking for you ?

I made the same point during beta only my example started with "Mud Crabs" instead of wolves. I still think a VR14 Mud Crab is a ludicrous concept!

Elron87 wrote: »

I agree with your comment about the wolves, for a game that was promoted for immersion this is a bit silly. But it does happen in alot of games, kind of hard to have unique and progressively 'tougher' looking mobs to suit your level.

Actually it's not at all hard to have progressively tougher looking mobs. MMO's have been doing so effectively as far back as 1998 and DAoC!

Karmine · February 2015

However you can not forget "Immersion" why doesn't that beach havy any Mudcrabs ?

But yea.... I want to see Veteran Ranks and other Alliance zones gone.

However I do strongly believe that Scaling in the DLC zones will not hurt the story in anyway as they would had already been with their own story.

DLC Zone would be available for all Factions... which means they can't have Alliance Story there unless they make 3 different stories for each Zone.

Main Story kinda finishes Molag Bal for some time, so "Main Story" should be over for now.

So any new Zones would most likely be indepenant stories just related to those Zones.

PS : I don't mind being able to do other Factions Stories with your Main, just don't make it mandatory. Some people don't like to make alts.

Dreamo84 · February 2015

I cannot disagree more. Scaling content is at the heart of the elder scrolls series and they never should have had level gated content to begin with.

Aimora · February 2015

For me the main thing is give people an incentive to subscribe, the 10% bonuses aren't enough, maybe make the DLC's permanent after a period of subscription - ie 3 or 6 months after continued subbing they become yours, that way it encourages people to remain subbed and remain loyal to the game.

Kragorn · February 2015

Elron87 wrote: »

Again the Devs will need to design each new DLC as if you the player have not played the main story of the game.

What connection does the story element of Craglorn have to the main story? Not a direct analogy to what you're getting at I realise, but it shows that 'other' stories can be told that have little or no connection with the 1-50 journey.

Seems to me ESO is like any other MMO I've played which featured a story where there was some kind of final closure on the events it described, content beyond that end-point either starts a new story arc or else goes off into side issues which the main story has little or no direct bearing.

Sure, if ZOS ever did pick up the theme that the final dialog of the main story hints at (I won't spoil but anyone who's played through will hopefully see the door ZOS left open to pick up the theme of 'us' versus the Daedra Princes) there'd be a continuity issue to be dealt with but I really don't see it as a serious problem; given ZOS have said they don't expect to release conventional 'expansion packs' then large-scale story telling seems to be something only 'vanilla' ESO will ever do in this game.

Kragorn · February 2015

Karmine wrote: »

At first you start to beat up Wolves as you become more seasoned you start killing bandits and in the end you are beating down enemy soldiers.... then you go to a new Zone and a wolf kills you. Doesn't that feel immersion breaking for you ?

That's how the game is now, that's not an argument against level scaling, which you seem to want to try to argue.

Avatar1109 · February 2015

Only sub players can achieve VR status. Problem solved✔

Drazhar14 · February 2015

After getting to level 50, I don't care about leveling anymore. In fact, I hate VR ranks. If players scale up to the content to make it more accessible, that is fine. In fact, I'd prefer that so I can play with my friends who do not play as often and may not be the same level as I.

Anyways, what I want out of an Elder Scrolls game is more to explore/discover/quest, breath taking landscapes, and cool little things to find, so as long as DLC allows that I'm happy.

If they make content that continues the main story (which I hope they do), then obviously it should be locked until players beat the main game.

Robocles · February 2015

Dreamo84 wrote: »

I cannot disagree more. Scaling content is at the heart of the elder scrolls series and they never should have had level gated content to begin with.

It's an MMO. Sorry if you don't want stuff level gated, but that's just how it works.

Robocles · February 2015

Aimora wrote: »

For me the main thing is give people an incentive to subscribe, the 10% bonuses aren't enough, maybe make the DLC's permanent after a period of subscription - ie 3 or 6 months after continued subbing they become yours, that way it encourages people to remain subbed and remain loyal to the game.

This is an interesting idea.

Though, I'll point out that in a sub based game (which we have now) you are renting all content anyway... at least with the conversion you can play all of the current stuff for free once you buy a discounted box on Ebay or Steam.

Robocles · February 2015

Brandalf wrote: »

The player will scale up to the zones, the zones won't scale down to the player according to ZOS. So it will be similar to going into Cyrodiil and doing PVE content at level 10, it's doable sure but it will be a struggle. You won't be seeing a level 10 going into group dungeons or trials in these zones because they won't be able to cut it. If this is the case it's the best solution for everyone, IMO.

It means more freedom for those that want a more open-ended TES experience and difficult content for those at high levels that want it.

I find it hard to believe they will be able to make it difficult if you will be able to do it with level 10 skills.

EsORising · February 2015

Seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot when people who buy DLC's get to keep it and subbers do not. So... were renting the DLC and it's gone if we don't have a lifetime subsciption? Doesn't that make it better to just not sub and buy the DLC?

Enodoc · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

What connection does the story element of Craglorn have to the main story? Not a direct analogy to what you're getting at I realise, but it shows that 'other' stories can be told that have little or no connection with the 1-50 journey.

Barely any, but they do mention in passing that Molag Bal is defeated when talking about the atronachs at the Proving Grounds Dolmen (otherwise, of course, there would be a Dark Anchor there).

The way I think they may go is to do some of each. Zones like Wrothgar will be scaled-to and available to everyone, but there will hopefully also be some Craglorn-style Veteran zones as well. I'm personally hoping Murkmire is one of these.

Heishi · February 2015

Karmine wrote: »

I hate to say this but even the mature will love Jester costume and such.

But you haven't done your Alliance Story since level 49 ?

Also talking about GW2, going to Low Level zone.. you easily kill stuff there.

I was doing more than double the dmg than people in right level.

I agree about GW2 and the still doing a lot of damage even scaled down, but if ZOS is going to scale content, I wish they would do it consistently instead of group dungeons scale up, solo quest scale up, dlc scales up or down, and standard content is set level.

GW2 originally was going to have it where content scaled up or down with you, until they realized people would just abuse it and go right to end zones.

The having the content being at X level and you scaling down to it, even though you still do a lot more damage, is a very competent way of doing things I think. It didn't specifically make thing harder, but if you went back to play with someone starting a new char or something, at least you weren't 1 hit-ko'ing enemies. It at least made it a little less boring to go back and revisit zones to complete stuff anyways.

As far as the Jester costume, I considered getting it and making an imperial named Cicero (or some variation

)

dafox187 · March 2015

c0rp wrote: »

Over time..DLCs that have come out and are older will be moved into the "main game" purchase I imagine. This prevents new players from having to pay a *** ton of money to catch up.

i disagree

DDuke · March 2015

I totally agree with you, OP.

There's also the concern of content becoming ridiculously easy for higher levels as well, just so that scaled up lower levels can complete it and (possible) raids/dungeons becoming a joke. How are you going to put a bunch of low levels in a zone that has a raid in it? You start LFMing in zone, and suddenly your group is composed of a couple level 10s. Not my idea of fun.

I would rather see the player optionally (to not undermine the whole purpose of leveling) scale down to zone level, so you can play with your friends & what not, not vice versa.

Dreamo84 wrote: »

I cannot disagree more. Scaling content is at the heart of the elder scrolls series and they never should have had level gated content to begin with.

So, I take it you didn't play the Elder Scrolls series before it began dumbing down?

Morrowind is still regarded by most who played it as the best Elder Scrolls game to date, and it did not have scaling content. Every enemy & mob had their own level; if you wandered into the wrong area or cave, you could actually die. There was a sense of danger & excitement and powerful artifacts could be found in caves (and they truly were powerful & "fun" to find).

Then came Oblivion, and guess what was the biggest source of disgust for players? Level scaling.

In Skyrim, they tried to make it scale slightly less, but it was still level scaling and one of the biggest reasons my Morrowind shows over 3000 hours played, while Skyrim sits at 400.

So, claiming level scaling is "at the heart of Elder Scrolls series" is not only entirely false, but actually disrespectful towards the best part of the series.

LonePirate · March 2015

Whether you like or dislike the hybrid rental and purchase model for future DLC, it surely has to be better than the current model of no DLC. If ZOS won't release DLC, it doesn't matter what pricing model they use.

Enodoc · March 2015

DDuke wrote: »

There's also the concern of content becoming ridiculously easy for higher levels as well, just so that scaled up lower levels can complete it and (possible) raids/dungeons becoming a joke. How are you going to put a bunch of low levels in a zone that has a raid in it? You start LFMing in zone, and suddenly your group is composed of a couple level 10s. Not my idea of fun.

Personally I believe/hope that Adventure Zones with Trials, like Murkmire, will stay at Veteran with no scaling, and it'll only be the new 1-50-like Zones with solo/duo content (like Wrothgar, Clockwork City, Spiral Skein and Abah's Landing) that players will be scaled to.

Seraphyel · March 2015

Scaled DLCs are a horrible idea. You know why? ESO needs endcontent. Scalable content is no endcontent.

ESO has a lot of content from 1-50, the content after 50 is missing.

With scaled content they want to cater to every player out there so that they increase their sales on those DLCs but in the end it's just another bad design decision.