Official Feedback Thread for Thieves Guild Skill Line

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for the Thieves Guild Skill Line. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes:

• Did you find that each of the passives were worthwhile, fun, and functional?
• Do you have any general feedback about the passives or the progression?

Enodoc

General feedback: Currently you only have to enter Abah's Landing to unlock the Thieves Guild Skill Line. I think you should be required to complete the first quest (Partners in Crime), thus joining the Guild, before the skill line becomes available.

Elijah_Crow

I'm fond of the skill line, however I am very disappointed not to see a passive which increases movement speed while in stealth.

There are a few ways to get this type of bonus in game through armor sets, Nightblade abilities, or Vampire Passives.

However if you are not playing a Nightblade character, are a Magicka build (no Night's Silence Set), and do not want to be forced to be a Vampire, there should be a way to at least gain a small incremental movement speed buff while stealthed/crouched.

I think this Skill line is the most appropriate for it. It doesn't have to be full movement speed in stealth like the other 3 alternatives but would match well with this skill line.

Angmarsky

I'm very disappointed in this skill line. It's useful almost only for Thieves Guild quests but not in other activities. We have no improved sneak for example. And what is more we have no bonuses to pickpocketing or so on. It's a pity, I have waited Thieves Guild since release date but now I don't know to buy or not to buy.

Sav72

Last skill line, stackable increase to stealth movement.

Almariel

...and i hoped so much for a "keen eye" skill for treasure chests, heavy sacks and so on. But we got those special chests which have a good visible blue glow to them.

But beyond this, the skill seems go quite well hand in hand with he ledgerdemain one.

Personofsecrets

It is extremely boring.

strikeback1247

Angmarsky wrote: »

I'm very disappointed in this skill line. It's useful almost only for Thieves Guild quests but not in other activities. We have no improved sneak for example. And what is more we have no bonuses to pickpocketing or so on. It's a pity, I have waited Thieves Guild since release date but now I don't know to buy or not to buy.

This was intended and I'm happy that they did it like this. Improvements to sneak would have effects on PvP and PvE. This means that if you don't own the DLC, you have a small disadvantage compared to other players. This is a minor form of P2W.

Contraptions

Almost all the bonuses are quite underwhelming. Also roughly 12 more skill points will be needed, but this DLC doesn't add any ways of getting more skill points so far.

Swiftly Forgotten: To be worth 4 skill points the bounty and heat loss has to be way higher. I suggest "bounty and heat decays 50/100/150/200% faster" for ranks 1 to 4.

Haggling: Another extremely underwhelming passive. 2% of a 250 gold blue item is a whopping 5 GOLD. I suggest "increase value of items and reduces fence cooldown by 5/10/15/20%". Especially with the shipments of worthless white contraband that seem to be so common, you need to give us a way to get rid of those as well.

Clemency: Cooldown is too long to be useful and guards are simple enough to escape as it is. Suggest changing to a skill that highlights lockboxes and chests, or one that allows you to bypass the lock cooldown period after you fail to pick a lock, or even increased fence limit.

Timely Escape: I'm not sure what this does, but if this passive is just meant to unlock the two other Refuge entrances that ZOS blocked off way way before when justice was just released, then it feels like you're selling us access to content that already should have been included in the base game. It just doesn't feel right. Change it to something like "you gain 15% faster movement speed for 5 seconds after being damaged by a guard. This effect has a cooldown of 5 minutes." The Syvarra set shows that the game can tell when a guard is doing damage to you, so no reason this effect can't work.

Veil of Shadows: The effect seems ok but what is Witness Range? Do you mean NPC detection radius? Or the player's detection radius? Either way, bump the percentage up to about 25% to make it seem truly worth taking. Also, as the last passive that's unlocked it's pretty meh.

Sav72

To be honest, I do not see any reason why I should even do Thieves quest, other then the fact I might get bored....

Not worth investing skill points in any passives, unless you a RPer, then I can understand.

Kendaric

It's nice to finally have a skill line that doesn't affect your character's combat performance. The passives provided are ok for an optional skill line. None of them are really needed, but they serve their purpose and fit the guild's theme.

Toorlokviing

im gettting thieves guild quests for areas that are above my level. im a v1 dc character and im gettting a v3 area quest...i havnet even explored greenshade yet let alone finish any of the previous zones. plz fix this and make it for areas of your level or below.

also as op person has mentioned...besides only a few skyshards...might i suggest gettting a skillpoint for each progressive thieves guild quest with the guild master. much like main quest did in base game. 7 or so odd more skill points would not kill you zos. there are alot of players who put points into all crafts and still dont have enough for other skill lines.

Enodoc

Toorlokviing wrote: »

im gettting thieves guild quests for areas that are above my level. im a v1 dc character and im gettting a v3 area quest...i havnet even explored greenshade yet let alone finish any of the previous zones. plz fix this and make it for areas of your level or below.

also as op person has mentioned...besides only a few skyshards...might i suggest gettting a skillpoint for each progressive thieves guild quest with the guild master. much like main quest did in base game. 7 or so odd more skill points would not kill you zos. there are alot of players who put points into all crafts and still dont have enough for other skill lines.

There were no skill points for Mages Guild or Fighters Guild quests, so there is no reason to get any skill points for Thieves Guild quests.

DUTCH_REAPER

Enjoying the quest line atm. Just wish the boss type npcs we have to choose to take out or sneak passed were a more of a challenge. Kind of like hmm maybe I should just bypass this guy altogether or really be in for a fight if not. Maybe later down this quest road they are more of a challenge in terms of combat but so far smoke checking all them is not great.

I think you should complete the first quest to pick up the skill line as well.

Increase the haggling passive.

Again I am enjoying the story just want more of a combat challenge on bosses when I choose to rek them.

Dalsinthus

The passives are a little underwhelming, but flavorful. They will be fun to flesh out a roguish character. I appreciate that they did not create combat imbalances by making the passives too useful. While faster sneak speed would have been nice, it would have created power imbalances based on who owns the DLC. There are major downsides to the other mechanisms of getting fast sneak (vampires are squishy to fire and FG skills; Night's silence requires sacrificing a 5 piece set bonus).

I do think that the DLC should include ways to get most of the skillpoints you need to flesh out this skill line. There are a lot of skill points in this game, but lots of ways to spend them, especially for dedicated crafters. A few more skill points is not going to unbalance the game in some way.

Sordidfairytale

Toorlokviing wrote: »

im gettting thieves guild quests for areas that are above my level. im a v1 dc character and im gettting a v3 area quest...i havnet even explored greenshade yet let alone finish any of the previous zones. plz fix this and make it for areas of your level or below.

also as op person has mentioned...besides only a few skyshards...might i suggest gettting a skillpoint for each progressive thieves guild quest with the guild master. much like main quest did in base game. 7 or so odd more skill points would not kill you zos. there are alot of players who put points into all crafts and still dont have enough for other skill lines.

Even as a max crafter in Clothing, Blacksmith, Woodworking, Enchanting, Provisioning, and Alchemy I have 7 skill points sitting on my character right now, and I haven't done any of the content in Orsinium with that character yet. Skill points are easy enough to come by.

Enodoc wrote: »

...

There were no skill points for Mages Guild or Fighters Guild quests, so there is no reason to get any skill points for Thieves Guild quests.

Certainly not along the way, but I don't know about you, I however received skill points from the mages guild questline. I had to damn a lady in order to get them, but the cheese made me... the cheese.

Elijah_Crow

Dalsinthus wrote: »

I appreciate that they did not create combat imbalances by making the passives too useful. While faster sneak speed would have been nice, it would have created power imbalances based on who owns the DLC.

I absolutely detest this line of thought. THINK ABOUT THE RAMIFICATIONS OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

All future content is through DLC. Because of Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood (Two KEY ESO Guilds) not being in the game prior to the change in payment model, you want their skill lines not to effect combat skills?!?

Look at the Fighters Guild and Mages Guild Skill lines and how much they effect combat in the game. And now the two guilds focused around stealth and assassination can't give any abilities for stealth or killing!?!


ZOS has effectively neutered its ability to have meaningful guild skill lines for any guild which is not part of the base game because of its payment model. Those like me who have been subscribed since launch waiting on these guilds and skill lines get screwed as do all players hoping for future DLC skill lines.

This skill line should absolutely include ANOTHER way to earn faster movement speed in stealth or decreased stealth detection radius BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY AVAILABLE WIHOUT THE DLC. Since they can't add something that someone without the DLC would not have access to, at least make the skill line relevant instead of fluff.

Compare how weak this skill line is with the Mages and Fighters Guild Skill line and imagine what it might have been if the game were still subscription based.

Lokryn

It would of been nice for one of the passives to be "Safefall: Reduces your fall damage by X%". I always imagine thieves/rogues running along and jumping from rooftops.

Tib

Timely Escape - I quite like that one because it helps you be a bit more bold in your criminal activities and it can really save your day when you are close to a refuge with a stash of stolen items, but a guard notices you.

But it is only intended to work when you are quite close to the refuge entrance itself yes? I wonder if it wouldnt be more useful the farther away from refuge you are? Or maybe it would be too powerful then, because you wouldn't need to plan any escape routes, just rely on the Footpad.

Haggling - Agree with the above statements that the values are too low. 5-10-15-20% would be a much better boost, while still not too extreme.

Regarding skill points I don't think we need more available skill points. You get 2 skills from the zone skyshards, not sure if you get any at the end of the quest line), and Finders Keepers is automatically active, so you effectively need 9 skill points. You're meant to prioritize and respec within the skill trees: being able to have all available skills at any time is just weird.

Tib

Swiftly Forgotten - this is nice at low bounties. But when you are on a crime spree then it's so close to useless. A percentage instead of fixed value could be a solution, unless this passive is meant to help with lower bounties only.

Clemency - I'm not sure how it works. I only see one possibility how this could be useful, and that is during the Heists. That would make this a really useful skill, justifying the 24h cooldown as well.

Edit: Unlocking the skill line - Definitely agree with above comments regarding that as well. Complete Partners in Crime first to become an official initiate to the guild

Thevampirenight

Well I do think thieves guild should have abilities.
Example
Raven Travel- Travel behind an enemy or person, by turning into ravens, and reappearing behind them.
Summon Crows- Summon Crows to distract your enemy.
Nocturnal's Blessing- Your attacks for a limited time do extra damage for 5 seconds, with a chance for a defeated foe to give you extra gold.
Raven cloak- Ravens will land on your shoulders and fly around you, giving you bonus to attack speed, and heal you for ten percent health.
(Just think how cool those abilities would be if they added them, they don't have to directly be Stealth but be something worthy of Nocturnal, as well as abilities more affiliated with a witch type character! )

Sparky617

I think the whole skill line is kinda "blah"....I was really hoping for skills that were useful in all aspects of the game, not to mention a cool active ability or two....

Enodoc

Also posted in the bug thread:

Swiftly Forgotten, Rank 1, says that "Bounty is decreased by 10 after 3 minutes". However, at VR16, bounty already decreases by 28 every 3 minutes, and after taking that passive, then decreases by 46 every 3 minutes, which is a difference of 18. Either the tooltip or the calculation is incorrect.

Anska

Personally I have mixed feelings about this skill line. On one hand I like that it's not combat related and centers on abilities related to thievery, on the other hand I don't find the abilities very interesting. Especially when compared to the skill lines of the other guilds they seem very pale. I am also very disappointed that the Thieves Guild skill line doesn't even offer a single active ability let alone an ultimate. In the following I'll write what I like and dislike about the skills and add some suggestions later on:

Finders Keepers - I like this one. I made some suggestions concerning the Thieves Troves in the Thieves Guild Feedback Thread but generally I really like this skill.

Swiftly Forgotten - Please, don't. It's virtually impossible that through stealing, trespassing and resisting arrest alone you could amass such a bounty that you couldn't just sit it out or pay it off (unless, of course, you are specifically aiming for it). This skill really only comes in handy for those players who enjoy going on a killing spree and in my opinion they don't need any further encouragement. For a thief a high bounty shouldn't be so much a problem as loosing all the loot s/he is currently carrying to the guard. I'll make a suggestion concerning this further down but please don't alter the bounty and heat decay any further - it's fine the way it is.

Haggling - I don't think this one is too interesting (at some point more gold simply is more gold) but I think it's a fitting Thieves Guild skill and might be rather helpful if you just started playing. So basically I like it even though I probably won't skill it on live server.

Clemency - Again I like this one, it's a good panic button for dire situations. The cool-down is fine too, because it makes you choose wisely when you use the ability.

Timely Escape - I think this one is both op and a bit boring actually. I rather have abilities which allow me to plan my moves than have a whole list of panic buttons which just make me become careless. Isn't the whole point of stealth play not to be spotted in the first place?

Veil of Shadows - Again I like it, though I think it should come along with some kind of stealth radius indicator or line-of-sight cones.

____________________________________________

Suggestions:

Ultimate Abilities:

Smoke bomb - Throw a smoke bomb to hide yourself and your allies. While hidden by smoke you cannot cause or be target of targeted attacks but are still vulnerable to area effects.
Morph 1: Also removes snares.
Morph 2: Also grants invisibility for a couple of seconds after leaving the smoked area.

I'm not very good at this balancing thing but I think this shouldn't cause much trouble as it is mostly an ability which allows you to retreat when you noticed that you ran into more trouble than you can handle.

Active Abilities

Dexterity - Throw a small stone. Enemies in the area will investigate what caused the sound for a couple of seconds so you can slip past them. Can only be used while crouched and out of combat and should have a cd so it can't be spammed.
Morph 1: Adds the ability to set off a single bear-, tripwire or jar trap at a distance.
Morph 2: Adds the ability to knock out a single NPC for some seconds. If other NPC notice their unconscious mate, they'll become alerted. If somebody notices you knocking out a civilian you'll of course get a bounty - throwing stones isn't very nice after all.

Detect Life - your basic alteration spell. Allows you to perceive the silhouettes of NPC and other players through walls and solid objects (e.g. large crates). Colour should indicate whether they are hostile or friendly. Can only be used while crouched and out of combat, channeled, shouldn't break stealth.
Morph 1: Also allows you to perceive traps and mechanisms.
Morph 2: Larger range

Especially none Nightblades might have a hard time with all the sneaking in this DLC and thus have to plan their moves more carefully if they want avoid being spotted. In smaller houses or narrow areas where you have very little room to maneuver it would be very helpful to actually know where the NPC are currently looking or heading to. Also I quite often encountered traps (poison jars mostly) located directly behind a box so I couldn't have possibly seen them before setting them off.

Passive Abilites

Stashed away (3) - (instead of Swiftly Forgotten) allows you to detect unsuspicious containers in which you can store (10/20/30) stolen items for 10 Minutes. Adding or removing an item won't reset the timer, if you don't pick up your loot before the timer runs out, it will be destroyed. You can only use one container at the same time.

This mimics what my Skyrim thief usually did when having been spotted: Stash your stolen goods in the next barrel, talk things over with the guard, pick up your loot again and continue your way. Personally I think it's a better way to simply grant thieves a possibility to somehow save their loot than to devaluate bounty and heat altogether.

Secret Passage - (Instead of Timely Escape) Allows you to see marks left by other thieves which point you towards secret passages. Secret passages might offer additional ways to return to the local sanctuary, safe routes to bypass enemies or simply draw your attention to a hidden room. Well hidden normally (e.g. scratched in wood), the marks glow lightly when crouched.

I like the idea of thieves being able to spot and use secret passages, I just don't like the idea that they are only useful when trying to escape from the guard. In the larger cities you could reopen the four additional entrances each sanctuary has for this skill (They were so nicely designed it's really a shame you took them out in the first place!), in other areas (smaller towns, questing areas, delves) you could add some sewer fragments or rooftop paths to bypass a nasty mob group or crowded area - it would also be very cool to be able to climb around in some of the Dwemer Ruins. Occasionally a mark might simply show the way to a room with some additional treasures or perhaps a switch with which you can deactivate some traps for the rest of your group.

Enodoc

I like the idea of reopening one of the closed Refuge entrances. Five was too many, but I think three would be a good setup for the way the system is working now. That would give you one at either end of the city, and one outside the walls.

davey1107

I have waited a year for Thoeves Guild. I imagined some awesome new active and passive skills to make me faster, sneakier and thiefier. I imagined some awesome looking new armor like the nightingale set from Skyrim (sans full face mask).

I cannot imagine the final results being a bigger disappointment that what you came up with. Sorry - this DLC is increasingly look like a giant bomb.

Elsonso

Regarding Treasure Troves... has anyone determined whether they are instanced? I suspect that people who do not have Finders Keepers will not see them, but what about others in the area that have this passive?

The on screen stealth indicator has always indicated that we come out of stealth while opening containers. At least one passive in the skill line should remove this behavior so that the thief can remain in stealth while opening containers. Perhaps with more skill points invested in Veil of Shadows?

Elijah_Crow

This thread has far fewer posts than any feedback thread for the new expansion. It's not that it's bad, it's just lacking.

This is a guild skill line in Elder Scrolls. Please look at the fighters guild and mages guild skill line including their ultimate's and consider how weak this skill line truly is.

Please reconsider before pushing such a weak set of skills to live. This is the biggest disappointment for me of the entire expansion.

Garwulf

One boring skill line. In reality totally pointless. Think we have been robbed....

Enodoc

I do not understand why Finders Keepers (the first skill in the skill line) does not require a Skill Point to unlock. You should be required to spend a skill point to unlock Finders Keepers just like you do for every other passive.

Either that, or remove the skill point requirement from Persuasive Will (Mages Guild) and Intimidating Presence (Fighters Guild).

Ra'Shtar

In Elden Root the foot pad appear in your compass even if its located on the 2nd floor and you are on the 1st floor which makes it really confusing.