(Magicka) DK - yet another players shares ideas about boosting performance and fun

tinythinker

Hello.

I know there has been a lot written about this topic, and I don't assume my ideas are any good. But DK was my first class and when I hopped back on that early character recently I was surprised at the difference. I would prefer to add my thoughts to a Dev Discussion forum topic like I did for the thread on Templars, but there isn't one for DKs (yet).

After getting a bit of a feel for where DKs are at present for PvE and PvP, I don't think they are lame, weak, or hopeless, but some changes over the past year and a half seem to have been slight over-reactions and some unchanged things haven't kept up with the state of the game. For each skill line, I make note of what is changed or added through colored text. To make it simpler to write the tooltips, I am using information from the versions posted here. Only active skills, morphs, or passives with proposed changes are included.

I am using spoiler tags for each skill line to make things easier to read. And I do appreciate you reading this, and even moreso your thoughtful comments.


Revised/Feedback Version


ARDENT FLAME

The "DPS" skill line, how fun! Head below to see the tweaks proposed for the aspiring pyromage...

Dragonknight Standard (Ultimate Ability)
250 Ultimate | Instant cast | 15s duration | 8 meter radius of effect (centered on caster)

Call down a flaming battle standard that deals (x) Flame Damage each second to nearby enemies and afflicts them with Major Defile, which reduces the effectiveness of healing on them by 30%. Enemies in the area of effect have movement speed reduced by 60%. While the standard is up, an ally can activate Shackle to deal (x) Flame Damage and immobilize enemies in a 2.5m radius

Explanation of the changes: With the increased cost that has been added to this ability over time, from 200 to 250 ultimate, and the removal of its ability to be tossed at range (up to 15 meters in the original version), making sure enemies can't easily run out of this ultimate before an ally can hit the synergy is a no-brainer.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Extended Chains (Morph of Fiery Chains)
3351 Magicka | Instant cast | 22 meter range | Target = single enemy

Launch a fiery chain to grasp and pull an enemy to you, dealing (x) Flame Damage and setting the enemy off balance. If the target cannot be moved, the chain pulls you to the target and knocks them down.


Lava Whip (Active Ability)
2394 Magicka | Instant | 8m range | Target = single enemy

Lash an enemy with flame for (x) Flame Damage plus up to 150% more versus targets below 40% health. Immobile or stunned enemies are set off balance. You can only set an enemy off balance once every 5 seconds.

Molten Whip (Morph of Lava Whip)
2394 Magicka | Instant | 8m range | Target = single enemy

Lash an enemy with flame for (x) Flame Damage plus up to 150% more versus targets below 40% health. Immobile or stunned enemies are set off balance. You can only set an enemy off balance once every 5 seconds. While slotted, the damage of Ardent Flame Abilities is increased by [7/8/9/10%].

Flame Lash (Morph of Lava Whip)
2394 Magicka | Instant | 8m range | Target = single enemy

Lash an enemy with flame for (x) Flame Damage plus up to 150% more versus targets below 40% health. Immobile or stunned enemies are set off balance. You can only set an enemy off balance once every 5 seconds. When targeting an off balance enemy, this becomes Power Lash, which deals (x) Flame Damage and stuns the target for 2 seconds. It also heals you for (x).


Inferno (Active Abilty)
1500 magicka per second | Toggle | 15 meter radius of effect (centered on caster)
Activate an aura of flames, dealing [x] Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second. There is a [2/3/4/5%] chance that very low health targets will take an additional [y] flame damage, instantly incinerating them.

Flames of Oblivion (Morph of Inferno)
1000 stamina per second | Toggle | 6 meter radius (centered on caster)

Activate an aura of flames, dealing [x - 15%] Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second and granting you Major Savagery, which increases your Weapon Critical by 10%. There is a [5/6/7/8%] chance that very low health targets will take an additional [y] flame damage, instantly incinerating them.


Sea of Flames (Morph of Inferno)
1500 magicka per second | Toggle | 15 meter radius (centered on caster)

Activate an aura of flames, dealing [x] Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second and inflicting Minor Breach on foes caught your fiery waves, decreasing their resistance to Magic Damage. Enemies who die in the Sea of Flames restore 1000 health and magicka to you and to allies within the fire. There is a [2/3/4/5%] chance that very low health targets will take an additional [y] flame damage, instantly incinerating them.


Explanation of the changes: Extended Chains can't be used to pull people off of keep walls anymore, but it you are yanking people that far and fast, why not add collision-based status effects? Especially ones that can set up other abilities (being off-balance, for example, to set up the Power Lash hit from the Flame Lash ability). But as others have noted any version of chains would require a fix to the Z-axis settings to be useful in places like Cyrodiil. Lava Whip is altered to become the DK execute. I know some folks want Molten Whip to be a stamina morph but the official response was a "no". As for Inferno and it's morphs, it's time to put away to glow ball and return the ability and its morphs to its roots, but in a manner updated for the game as it is today. (And if you really want to keep that little ball for some baffling reason, at least have it give Major Force, for +40% crit damage, so it can be paired with the Major Prophecy boost from a potion or the ability Magelight.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Warmth (Passive Ability)

Rank I: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities also reduces their movement speed by 15% for 2 3 seconds.
Rank II: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 6 seconds.

Searing Heat (Passive)

Causes an enemy to take the full impact of the damage over time portion of Fiery Breath or Searing Strike in a single burst if it is cleansed.

Explanation of the changes: Warmth could use a small boost, doesn't need a major change, and the amped up version works nicely with the revised Flames of Oblivion ability. Searing Heat was never a bad passive, but with so many people cleansing or purging DoTs, the new version makes sure that enemies afflicted with Fiery Breath or Searing Strike feel the burn. The alternative I considered is just as fun: make it the DK version of Sorc's Disintegrate passive, wherein there is a 6% chance at Rank II for any fire spell to incinerate low health targets for [x] flame damage and reduce them to a pile of ash. I would rather have that kind of effect be part of the renewed Inferno skill however.

DRACONIC POWER

This skill line has some of the most iconic DK abilities in the game. Let's restore just a *tiny* bit of that former glory.

Dark Talons (Active Ability)
3591 Magicka | Instant cast | 6 8 meter radius (centered on caster)

Call forth talons from the ground to deal (x) Physical Damage and immobilize nearby enemies for 3.5 seconds. Targets are slowed by 40% for 3 seconds after the ability ends. While enemies are held, an ally can activate the Impale synergy, dealing (x) Physical Damage to enemies held within talons.
[Applies to both morphs as well.]


Dragon Blood (Active Ability)
3830 Magicka | Instant cast | Target = self

Draw on your draconic blood to heal 30% of missing Health and gain Major Fortitude, increasing Health Regeneration by 20% for 20 seconds. Heal is not affected by Battle Spirit.
[Applies to both morphs as well.]

Explanation of the changes: It is so easy to roll-dodge, roll-dodge, roll-dodge out of DarkTalons now, or to purge them away, so why not a brief un-purgeable slowing effect to let the talons have at least a bit of stopping power. As for Dragon Blood, the changes to Battle Spirit make the heal fairly worthless in PvP zones. You get better heals from a Restoration staff.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Elder Dragon (Passive Ability)
Rank I: While using Draconic Power abilities: Increases Health and Stamina Recovery by 2% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.
Rank II: While using Draconic Power abilities: Increases Health and Stamina Recovery by 4%for each Draconic Power ability slotted.

Scaled Armor (Passive Ability)
Rank I: Increases Spell and Physical Resistance by (1000)
Rank II: Increases Spell and Physical Resistance by (2500)

Explanation of the changes: The passives have always been nice, but they need a small upgrade to fit the times.

EARTHEN HEART

Soooo, yeah. This skill line could use some attention, too.

Obsidian Shard (Morph of Stonefist)
3951 Magicka | Instant cast | 20 meter range | Target = single enemy)

Slam an enemy with solid rock to deal [x] Physical Damage and knock them down for 3 seconds. The projectile shatters on impact, embedding sharp fragments in the target and causing [y] bleed damage for the duration of the knockdown. An ally within 8 meters of the target is healed for the bleed damage.

Stone Giant (Morph of Stonefist)
2873 Stamina | Instant cast | 12 meter range | Target = single enemy

Slam an enemy with solid rock to deal [x] Physical Damage and knock them down for 3 seconds. Enemies within 4 meters of the target take [y] Damage from the blast and are Concussed.


Molten Weapons (Active Ability)
3830 Magicka | Instant cast | 20 meter radius (centered on caster)

Charge your weapons with volcanic power to temporarily increase the damage of your allies' light and heavy weapon attacks by 8% for [8/12/16/20] seconds. Bonus is increased by 100% on caster.

Igneous Weapons (Morph of Molten Weapons)
3830 Magicka | Instant cast | 20 meter radius (centered on caster)

Charge your weapons with volcanic power to temporarily increase the damage of your allies' light and heavy weapon attacks by 10% for [8/12/16/20] seconds. Bonus is increased by 100% on caster. Heavy attacks have a [2/4/6/8%] chance to cause the target to burst into flame, taking an initial [x] Flame Damage and an additional [y] damage per second for 6 seconds.

Molten Armaments (Morph of Molten Weapons)
3830 Magicka | Instant cast | 20 meter radius (centered on caster)

Charge your weapons with volcanic power to temporarily increase the damage of your allies' light and heavy weapon attacks by 10% for [8/12/16/20] seconds. Bonus is increased by 100% on caster. Caster and allies also gain Minor Sorcery and Minor Force for the duration of the spell, increasing Spell Damage by 5% and Critical Damage by 15%.


Ash Cloud (Active Ability)
4069 Magicka | Instant cast | 22m range/5m radius

Summon a scorching cloud of ash at the target location, dealing (x) Flame Damage to enemies every 0.5 seconds for 15 seconds. Also reduces enemy Movement Speed by 70% and grants allies within the cloud Major Evasion, increasing their Dodge chance by 20%.
[Applies to both morphs as well.]

Explanation of the changes: The base damage of Obsidian Shard was previously reduced, and that is kept here or reduced even more depending on the amount of the damage from the DoT/HoT, which would tick once per second for three seconds. With the CC effect in place with the Knockdown, the initial hit could deal far less damage and easily make up for it with the bleed effect added. Obsidian blades are very sharp, and scalpels made from such volcanic glass cut better than metal ones. There is already a planned revamp of the bleed effect, so why not take advantage and have it make just a little more sense how the projectile might extract health from the target? It kind of echoes Blood Craze from the Dual Wield skill line. If you want to go with reducing the initial impact/upping the bleed, you could also have the heal affect two allies rather than one.

The small increase to Physical Resistance from the current version of Stone Giant is nice, and can help buff a DK's mitigation, but the splash damage to enemies close to the target and a 10% reduction in the damage they do from being concussed offers a little more "pow" and is consistent with the name "Stone Giant". As in, you just got smashed. This makes it a semi-AoE attack. It could keep the current range or have it reduced in exchange for higher base/splash damage, making it a quasi-PBAoE attack.

The old version of Molten Weapons was a favorite of mine. Buff yourself and your allies so that all weapon attacks were stronger. Woot! I tried the current version on a lower level character, doing basic Alliance zone quests and exploration, from the mid-20s to early 30s level range. It is obnoxious. It only lasts 8 seconds (it used to last 60 seconds) and only works with fully charged heavy attacks, which means if you want to use it you hit the keybind for the ability, hold the button for a basic weapon attack for 8 seconds, and watch two whole buff attacks go off. No defense, mind you, just holding the one button waiting for the weapon to finish charging. Even if people loved waiting around for fully charged heavy attacks to go off, or might want to toss them in now and again (I'm thinking healers with Restoration staffs might fit the bill), the duration would be better at 20 seconds or more. But, if it works that poorly in low-level Alliances zones, who would want it for vet or end-game content. I guess you could stack basic weapon attack damage with Champion Points, roll a Dunmer DK, and get an Inferno staff with full skill points into the Tri Focus passive, then wait in stealth to ambush someone in PvP. Yup. Cool. So it is one of the abilities with proposed changes here to get it back to being, you know, useful.

Ash Cloud used to inflict a 30% miss chance to enemies inside of it. Adding Major Evasion for a 20% chance to dodge enemy attacks within the cloud restores that utility.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -




Original Version

ARDENT FLAME

The "DPS" skill line, how fun! Head below to see the tweaks proposed for the aspiring pyromage...

Dragonknight Standard (Ultimate Ability)
250 Ultimate | Instant cast | 15s duration | 8 meter radius of effect (centered on caster)

Call down a flaming battle standard that deals (x) Flame Damage each second to nearby enemies and afflicts them with Major Defile, which reduces the effectiveness of healing on them by 30%. Enemies in the area of effect have movement speed reduced by 60%. While the standard is up, an ally can activate Shackle to deal (x) Flame Damage and immobilize enemies in a 2.5m radius

Explanation of the changes: With the increased cost that has been added to this ability over time, from 200 to 250 ultimate, and the removal of its ability to be tossed at range (up to 15 meters in the original version), making sure enemies can't easily run out of this ultimate before an ally can hit the synergy is a no-brainer.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Extended Chains (Morph of Fiery Chains)
3351 Magicka | Instant cast | 22 meter range | Target = single enemy

Launch a fiery chain to grasp and pull an enemy to you, dealing (x) Flame Damage and setting the enemy off balance. If the target cannot be moved, the chain pulls you to the target and knocks them down.


Lava Whip (Active Ability)
2394 Magicka | Instant | 8m range | Target = single enemy

Lash an enemy with flame for (x) Flame Damage plus up to 150% more versus targets below 40% health. Immobile or stunned enemies are set off balance. You can only set an enemy off balance once every 5 seconds.

Molten Whip (Morph of Lava Whip)
2394 Magicka | Instant | 8m range | Target = single enemy

Lash an enemy with flame for (x) Flame Damage plus up to 150% more versus targets below 40% health. Immobile or stunned enemies are set off balance. You can only set an enemy off balance once every 5 seconds. While slotted, the damage of Ardent Flame Abilities is increased by [7/8/9/10%].

Flame Lash (Morph of Lava Whip)
2394 Magicka | Instant | 8m range | Target = single enemy

Lash an enemy with flame for (x) Flame Damage plus up to 150% more versus targets below 40% health. Immobile or stunned enemies are set off balance. You can only set an enemy off balance once every 5 seconds. When targeting an off balance enemy, this becomes Power Lash, which deals (x) Flame Damage and stuns the target for 2 seconds. It also heals you for (x).


Inferno (Active Abilty)
1500 magicka per second | Toggle | 15 meter radius of effect (centered on caster)
Activate an aura of flames, dealing [x] Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second. There is a [2/3/4/5%] chance that very low health targets will take an additional [y] flame damage, instantly incinerating them.

Flames of Oblivion (Morph of Inferno)
1500 magicka per second | Toggle | 15 meter radius (centered on caster)

Activate an aura of flames, dealing [x] Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second and granting you Minor Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical by 3%, as well as Minor Force, which increases your Critical Damage by 15%. There is a [5/6/7/8%] chance that very low health targets will take an additional [y] flame damage, instantly incinerating them.

Sea of Flames (Morph of Inferno)
1500 magicka per second | Toggle | 15 meter radius (centered on caster)

Activate an aura of flames, dealing [x] Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second and inflicting Minor Breach on foes caught your fiery waves, decreasing their resistance to Magic Damage. Enemies who die in the Sea of Flames restore 1000 health and magicka to you and to allies within the fire. There is a [2/3/4/5%] chance that very low health targets will take an additional [y] flame damage, instantly incinerating them.


Explanation of the changes: Extended Chains can't be used to pull people off of keep walls anymore, but it you are yanking people that far and fast, why not add collision-based status effects? Especially ones that can set up other abilities (being off-balance, for example, to set up the Power Lash hit from the Flame Lash ability). But as others have noted any version of chains would require a fix to the Z-axis settings to be useful in places like Cyrodiil. Lava Whip is altered to become the DK execute. I know some folks want Molten Whip to be a stamina morph but the official response was a "no". As for Inferno and it's morphs, it's time to put away to glow ball and return the ability and its morphs to its roots, but in a manner updated for the game as it is today. (And if you really want to keep that little ball for some baffling reason, at least have it give Major Force, for +40% crit damage, so it can be paired with the Major Prophecy boost from a potion or the ability Magelight.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Warmth (Passive Ability)

Rank I: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities also reduces their movement speed by 15% for 2 3 seconds.
Rank II: Damaging enemies with Ardent Flame abilities also reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 6 seconds.

Searing Heat (Passive)

Causes an enemy to take the full impact of the damage over time portion of Fiery Breath or Searing Strike in a single burst if it is cleansed.

Explanation of the changes: Warmth could use a small boost, doesn't need a major change, and the amped up version works nicely with the revised Flames of Oblivion ability. Searing Heat was never a bad passive, but with so many people cleansing or purging DoTs, the new version makes sure that enemies afflicted with Fiery Breath or Searing Strike feel the burn. The alternative I considered is just as fun: make it the DK version of Sorc's Disintegrate passive, wherein there is a 6% chance at Rank II for any fire spell to incinerate low health targets for [x] flame damage and reduce them to a pile of ash. I would rather have that kind of effect be part of the renewed Inferno skill however.

DRACONIC POWER

This skill line has some of the most iconic DK abilities in the game. Let's restore just a *tiny* bit of that former glory.

Dark Talons (Active Ability)
3591 Magicka | Instant cast | 6 8 meter radius (centered on caster)

Call forth talons from the ground to deal (x) Physical Damage and immobilize nearby enemies for 3.5 seconds. Targets are slowed by 40% for 3 seconds after the ability ends. While enemies are held, an ally can activate the Impale synergy, dealing (x) Physical Damage to enemies held within talons.
[Applies to both morphs as well.]


Dragon Blood (Active Ability)
3830 Magicka | Instant cast | Target = self

Draw on your draconic blood to heal 30% of missing Health and gain Major Fortitude, increasing Health Regeneration by 20% for 20 seconds. Heal is not affected by Battle Spirit.
[Applies to both morphs as well.]

Explanation of the changes: It is so easy to roll-dodge, roll-dodge, roll-dodge out of DarkTalons now, or to purge them away, so why not a brief un-purgeable slowing effect to let the talons have at least a bit of stopping power. As for Dragon Blood, the changes to Battle Spirit make the heal fairly worthless in PvP zones. You get better heals from a Restoration staff.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Elder Dragon (Passive Ability)
Rank I: While using Draconic Power abilities: Increases Health Recovery by 2% 3% and Stamina Recovery by 1% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.
Rank II: While using Draconic Power abilities: Increases Health Recovery by 4% 6% and Stamina Recovery by 1% for each Draconic Power ability slotted.

Scaled Armor (Passive Ability)
Rank I: Increases Spell and Physical Resistance by (1000)
Rank II: Increases Spell and Physical Resistance by (2500)

Explanation of the changes: The passives have always been nice, but they need a small upgrade to fit the times.

EARTHEN HEART

Soooo, yeah. This skill line could use some attention, too.

Obsidian Shard (Morph of Stonefist)
3951 Magicka | Instant cast | 20 meter range | Target = single enemy)

Slam an enemy with solid rock to deal [x] Physical Damage and knock them down for 3 seconds. The projectile shatters on impact, embedding sharp fragments in the target and causing [y] bleed damage for the duration of the knockdown. An ally within 8 meters of the target is healed for the bleed damage.

Stone Giant (Morph of Stonefist)
2873 Magicka | Instant cast | 20 meter range | Target = single enemy

Slam an enemy with solid rock to deal [x] Physical Damage and knock them down for 3 seconds. Enemies within 4 meters of the target take [y] Damage from the blast and are Concussed. [Concussion would be added for very weak splash damage, not needed for sufficient splash damage.]


Molten Weapons (Active Ability)
3830 Magicka | Instant cast | 20 meter radius (centered on caster)

Charge your weapons with volcanic power to temporarily increase the damage of your allies' light and heavy weapon attacks by 8% for [8/12/16/20] seconds. Bonus is increased by 100% on caster.

Igneous Weapons (Morph of Molten Weapons)
3830 Magicka | Instant cast | 20 meter radius (centered on caster)

Charge your weapons with volcanic power to temporarily increase the damage of your allies' light and heavy weapon attacks by 10% for [8/12/16/20] seconds. Bonus is increased by 100% on caster. Heavy attacks have a [2/4/6/8%] chance to cause the target to burst into flame, taking an initial [x] Flame Damage and an additional [y] damage per second for 6 seconds.

Molten Armaments (Morph of Molten Weapons)
3830 Magicka | Instant cast | 20 meter radius (centered on caster)

Charge your weapons with volcanic power to temporarily increase the damage of your allies' light and heavy weapon attacks by 10% for [8/12/16/20] seconds. Bonus is increased by 100% on caster. Caster and allies also gain Minor Sorcery and Minor Force for the duration of the spell, increasing Spell Damage by 5% and Critical Damage by 15%.


Ash Cloud (Active Ability)
4069 Magicka | Instant cast | 22m range/5m radius

Summon a scorching cloud of ash at the target location, dealing (x) Flame Damage to enemies every 0.5 seconds for 15 seconds. Also reduces enemy Movement Speed by 70% and grants allies within the cloud Major Evasion, increasing their Dodge chance by 20%.
[Applies to both morphs as well.]

Explanation of the changes: The base damage of Obsidian Shard was previously reduced, and that is kept here or reduced even more depending on the amount of the damage from the DoT/HoT, which would tick once per second for three seconds. With the CC effect in place with the Knockdown, the initial hit could deal far less damage and easily make up for it with the bleed effect added. Obsidian blades are very sharp, and scalpels made from such volcanic glass cut better than metal ones. There is already a planned revamp of the bleed effect, so why not take advantage and have it make just a little more sense how the projectile might extract health from the target? It kind of echoes Blood Craze from the Dual Wield skill line. If you want to go with reducing the initial impact/upping the bleed, you could also have the heal affect two allies rather than one.

The small increase to Physical Resistance from the current version of Stone Giant is nice, and can help buff a DK's mitigation, but the splash damage to enemies close to the target and a 10% reduction in the damage they do from being concussed offers a little more "pow" and is consistent with the name "Stone Giant". As in, you just got smashed. This makes it a semi-AoE attack. It could keep the current range or have it reduced in exchange for higher base/splash damage, making it a quasi-PBAoE attack.

The old version of Molten Weapons was a favorite of mine. Buff yourself and your allies so that all weapon attacks were stronger. Woot! I tried the current version on a lower level character, doing basic Alliance zone quests and exploration, from the mid-20s to early 30s level range. It is obnoxious. It only lasts 8 seconds (it used to last 60 seconds) and only works with fully charged heavy attacks, which means if you want to use it you hit the keybind for the ability, hold the button for a basic weapon attack for 8 seconds, and watch two whole buff attacks go off. No defense, mind you, just holding the one button waiting for the weapon to finish charging. Even if people loved waiting around for fully charged heavy attacks to go off, or might want to toss them in now and again (I'm thinking healers with Restoration staffs might fit the bill), the duration would be better at 20 seconds or more. But, if it works that poorly in low-level Alliances zones, who would want it for vet or end-game content. I guess you could stack basic weapon attack damage with Champion Points, roll a Dunmer DK, and get an Inferno staff with full skill points into the Tri Focus passive, then wait in stealth to ambush someone in PvP. Yup. Cool. So it is one of the abilities with proposed changes here to get it back to being, you know, useful.

Ash Cloud used to inflict a 30% miss chance to enemies inside of it. Adding Major Evasion for a 20% chance to dodge enemy attacks within the cloud restores that utility.

Dexter411

I have to disagree with your ideas. All i want to change is couple of numbers, spamable stam(morhp) ability and execution ability. But it would be nice to have actuall choice of skills to use(but those are just dreams where stamina builds dont use steel tornado or rally and magicka builds impulse or healing ward)

Vangy

Most of these sound decent for a magicka dk. The problem is I also have a stam dk. These changes will bury her. For example;

1) flames of oblivion is used by my stam dk in dungeons/trials where daedra and undead are not around (I would use evil hunter if there's lots of undead etc). With this proposal there's no way she can use that.

2) pretty nice changes to db. Except 1% stam recovery is like nothing. If u run 1500 stam regen 1% is like 15. And no stam dks can't afford to slot more than 2 draconic power abilities let alone on the same bar lol. Top picks are reflective, fossilize (I think). No magicka to really use db effectively.

3) molten armaments is nice but why only affect spell damage? I would expect one morph to benefit magicka / spell crit damage and the other to boost weapon/ weapon crit damage. With these changes you will be taking a big part of the stam dks stealth burst in pvp.

4) flame whip is central to a magicka dk in pve and pvp depending on the morph u choose so I'm not going to ask for a stam whip. But why not a similar set up for stam dks with stone fist? We can make it do exactly what whip does but catered for a stam set up. That way stam dks don't need to rely on Wb.

But yes dks in general need a rework.

LorDrek

Nice, for stamina DK nothing.

willymchilybily

i liked a lot of these suggestions. id say people saying nothing for stamina are just showing the state of magicka DK. are there any left in this game?

like others have mentioned id give a stam morph on one of the stone fists morphs, stam users would benefit from being able to use more of the earthen heart abilities.

searing heat passive change is my favorite and it benefits both stam and magicka in PvP.

my suggestions based on your suggestions:

• take the "While slotted, the damage of Ardent Flame Abilities is increased by [7/8/9/10%]." off of molten whip, Put it on the current Sea of flames as "while active" opposed to just slotted, (as sea of flames morph gives very little). This makes running the sea of flames over mage light more appealing. and frees up molten whip as a stam morph without affecting Anybody's PvE or PvP game play
• Give Stam DK's a whip morph, (so they can see for themselves the tool tip dps is less so its terrible for PvP/burst and less dps than WB/snipe spam. and stop the QQ)
• keep flame lash. Magicka,
• Apply your suggestion to make it the class execute to both morphs.

Artis

@Dexter_1411

DKs always had the best sustained DPS. Executes are for those who are behind before the execute phase so they can catch up overall (and still can't, in pve dks dps is great )

tinythinker

Yup, I here you Dexter, Vangy, and LorDrek. My post specifically was meant for the complaints/concerns of magicka DKs, so I made sure that was in the title to not be misleading

I actually did have morph ideas on a few of the changes things to make them more stam friendly. For example, I turned Whip into a proper execute and a stam version of the Molten morph, which I've asked for in the past, would be great. Yet that has been rejected by the combat design team. If they change their mind, great. I figured I would make changes good for magicka DKs, who are in need of help, and if there were concerns/suggestions from stam DKs, go back and review/revise. And even in the original scheme proposed, changes to active abilities like Molten Weapons and passive abilities like Elder Dragon have the potential to benefit all builds.

To address specific things brought up by Vangy, I will quickly run through the numbered list.

Vangy wrote: »

1) flames of oblivion is used by my stam dk in dungeons/trials where daedra and undead are not around (I would use evil hunter if there's lots of undead etc). With this proposal there's no way she can use that.

Basically I just figured a stam DK would keep up Evil Hunter and Rally for the Major Savagery and Major Brutality buffs or use a potion, since that has been the meta for a while. The stamina-friendly morph idea I had for Inferno wouldn't have helped you, though. It was to turn Fires of Oblivion into a higher cost stamina morph that would burn hotter (higher base damage [X+25%]) and keep the higher chance to incinerate low health targets included in the version I actually posted. The buffs would have been Minor Fracture and Minor Savagery, again assuming Major Savagery would come from Hunter or a potion, so that the Minor buff would be a nice compliment.

If you want it to keep Major Savagery and be a stam-friendly morph, perhaps it could do less damage per second (maybe [x - 15%] or [x - 25%] or thereabouts) and keep the higher incineration chance. It would also need to cost stamina rather than magicka, and possibly have a smaller radius (6 or 8 meters), to avoid imbalance. I would also buff the other morph in some minor way for balance as well, maybe slightly upping the recovery per enemy who dies a bit to something like 1200 health and magicka.

So basically this:

Flames of Oblivion (Morph of Inferno)
1000 stamina per second | Toggle | 6 meter radius (centered on caster)

Activate an aura of flames, dealing [x - 15%] Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second and granting you Major Savagery, which increases your Weapon Critical by 10%. There is a [5/6/7/8%] chance that very low health targets will take an additional [y] flame damage, instantly incinerating them.

I actually like this change, since my originally proposed version of revising Flames of Oblivion was the one thing I was never quite satisfied with. It has a smaller radius but a greater chance of dusting people, which goes up even more because of the Major Savagery boost.

Vangy wrote: »

2) pretty nice changes to db. Except 1% stam recovery is like nothing. If u run 1500 stam regen 1% is like 15. And no stam dks can't afford to slot more than 2 draconic power abilities let alone on the same bar lol. Top picks are reflective, fossilize (I think). No magicka to really use db effectively.

I agree about boosting the stam recovery for the Elder Dragon passive, but I often focus on concepts rather than numbers my first run through, and if folks think they are too low I can up them. I was going to simply insert "and Stamina" between "Health" and "Recovery" to make it a 3% boost for both but often people say the numbers I use to illustrate my concepts are OP so I started off conservative.

Vangy wrote: »

3) molten armaments is nice but why only affect spell damage? I would expect one morph to benefit magicka / spell crit damage and the other to boost weapon/ weapon crit damage. With these changes you will be taking a big part of the stam dks stealth burst in pvp.

Actually, at the moment, neither stam nor magicka DKs get much from any version of Molten Weapons, so my changes don't take away anything .

But if you look at the passives for Earthen Heart, Mountain's Blessing gives the caster and allies Minor Brutality (+5% weapon damage) for 10/20 seconds, so, if you look at my proposed version of Molten Armaments, you get Minor Sorcery (+5% spell) and Minor Force (+15% to any type of crit damage) for 20 seconds at Rank IV. So, cast Molten at Rank IV with Rank II Mountain and everyone gets a boost to weapon, spell, and crit damage for 20 seconds.

Remember, I am taking Molten Weapons and its morphs *back* to being utility/support based, so nearby allies get the buffs, too. Having buffs segregated by weapon/physical and spell emphasis would run counter to that.

Vangy wrote: »

4) flame whip is central to a magicka dk in pve and pvp depending on the morph u choose so I'm not going to ask for a stam whip. But why not a similar set up for stam dks with stone fist? We can make it do exactly what whip does but catered for a stam set up. That way stam dks don't need to rely on Wb.

I am not opposed to that per se, but it is an early unlock ability so making it expensive/costly enough to be an execute could be a problem. It's kind of the DK version of Crystal Shard, but without a Mage's Fury to pair it with. If you wanted to try it, though, I would go with this:

Stone Giant (Morph of Stonefist)
3200 Stamina | Instant cast | 12 meter range | Target = single enemy

Slam an enemy with solid rock to deal [x] Physical Damage and knock them down for 3 seconds. Targets below is below 20% health take an additional [y] Damage from the impact.

It isn't a pure execute, but you can spam it at range, so the boost to low health targets would need to be modest.

As I mentioned, I wouldn't mind making the non-healing Whip stam but I don't see it happening. The thinking on the part of the devs seems to be that stam users have more weapon skill line options so magicka users should have more class skill line options. That's why my proposed changes are more likely to help stam builds through class buffs, to which the devs are more amenable.

Ishammael

Cool ideas! I like most of them. Some are probably a little to stronk (e.g. execute on molten whip), but that OK.

Vangy

tinythinker wrote: »

Yup, I here you Dexter, Vangy, and LorDrek. My post specifically was meant for the complaints/concerns of magicka DKs, so I made sure that was in the title to not be misleading

I actually did have morph ideas on a few of the changes things to make them more stam friendly. For example, I turned Whip into a proper execute and a stam version of the Molten morph, which I've asked for in the past, would be great. Yet that has been rejected by the combat design team. If they change their mind, great. I figured I would make changes good for magicka DKs, who are in need of help, and if there were concerns/suggestions from stam DKs, go back and review/revise. And even in the original scheme proposed, changes to active abilities like Molten Weapons and passive abilities like Elder Dragon have the potential to benefit all builds.

To address specific things brought up by Vangy, I will quickly run through the numbered list.

Vangy wrote: »

1) flames of oblivion is used by my stam dk in dungeons/trials where daedra and undead are not around (I would use evil hunter if there's lots of undead etc). With this proposal there's no way she can use that.

Basically I just figured a stam DK would keep up Evil Hunter and Rally for the Major Savagery and Major Brutality buffs or use a potion, since that has been the meta for a while. The stamina-friendly morph idea I had for Inferno wouldn't have helped you, though. It was to turn Fires of Oblivion into a higher cost stamina morph that would burn hotter (higher base damage [X+25%]) and keep the higher chance to incinerate low health targets included in the version I actually posted. The buffs would have been Minor Fracture and Minor Savagery, again assuming Major Savagery would come from Hunter or a potion, so that the Minor buff would be a nice compliment.

If you want it to keep Major Savagery and be a stam-friendly morph, perhaps it could do less damage per second (maybe [x - 15%] or [x - 25%] or thereabouts) and keep the higher incineration chance. It would also need to cost stamina rather than magicka, and possibly have a smaller radius (6 or 8 meters), to avoid imbalance. I would also buff the other morph in some minor way for balance as well, maybe slightly upping the recovery per enemy who dies a bit to something like 1200 health and magicka.

So basically this:

Flames of Oblivion (Morph of Inferno)
1000 stamina per second | Toggle | 6 meter radius (centered on caster)

Activate an aura of flames, dealing [x - 15%] Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second and granting you Major Savagery, which increases your Weapon Critical by 10%. There is a [5/6/7/8%] chance that very low health targets will take an additional [y] flame damage, instantly incinerating them.

I actually like this change, since my originally proposed version of revising Flames of Oblivion was the one thing I was never quite satisfied with. It has a smaller radius but a greater chance of dusting people, which goes up even more because of the Major Savagery boost.

Vangy wrote: »

2) pretty nice changes to db. Except 1% stam recovery is like nothing. If u run 1500 stam regen 1% is like 15. And no stam dks can't afford to slot more than 2 draconic power abilities let alone on the same bar lol. Top picks are reflective, fossilize (I think). No magicka to really use db effectively.

I agree about boosting the stam recovery for the Elder Dragon passive, but I often focus on concepts rather than numbers my first run through, and if folks think they are too low I can up them. I was going to simply insert "and Stamina" between "Health" and "Recovery" to make it a 3% boost for both but often people say the numbers I use to illustrate my concepts are OP so I started off conservative.

Vangy wrote: »

3) molten armaments is nice but why only affect spell damage? I would expect one morph to benefit magicka / spell crit damage and the other to boost weapon/ weapon crit damage. With these changes you will be taking a big part of the stam dks stealth burst in pvp.

Actually, at the moment, neither stam nor magicka DKs get much from any version of Molten Weapons, so my changes don't take away anything .

But if you look at the passives for Earthen Heart, Mountain's Blessing gives the caster and allies Minor Brutality (+5% weapon damage) for 10/20 seconds, so, if you look at my proposed version of Molten Armaments, you get Minor Sorcery (+5% spell) and Minor Force (+15% to any type of crit damage) for 20 seconds at Rank IV. So, cast Molten at Rank IV with Rank II Mountain and everyone gets a boost to weapon, spell, and crit damage for 20 seconds.

Remember, I am taking Molten Weapons and its morphs *back* to being utility/support based, so nearby allies get the buffs, too. Having buffs segregated by weapon/physical and spell emphasis would run counter to that.

Vangy wrote: »

4) flame whip is central to a magicka dk in pve and pvp depending on the morph u choose so I'm not going to ask for a stam whip. But why not a similar set up for stam dks with stone fist? We can make it do exactly what whip does but catered for a stam set up. That way stam dks don't need to rely on Wb.

I am not opposed to that per se, but it is an early unlock ability so making it expensive/costly enough to be an execute could be a problem. It's kind of the DK version of Crystal Shard, but without a Mage's Fury to pair it with. If you wanted to try it, though, I would go with this:

Stone Giant (Morph of Stonefist)
3200 Stamina | Instant cast | 12 meter range | Target = single enemy

Slam an enemy with solid rock to deal [x] Physical Damage and knock them down for 3 seconds. Targets below is below 20% health take an additional [y] Damage from the impact.

It isn't a pure execute, but you can spam it at range, so the boost to low health targets would need to be modest.

As I mentioned, I wouldn't mind making the non-healing Whip stam but I don't see it happening. The thinking on the part of the devs seems to be that stam users have more weapon skill line options so magicka users should have more class skill line options. That's why my proposed changes are more likely to help stam builds through class buffs, to which the devs are more amenable.

Hey thanks for the write up!

1) I would LOVE to have that morph of FOB. Yes please thank you come again. Me like. In case im not being clear: i want this now ZOS.

2) Sure the numbers need to be tweaked to a little higher. 1 % sooo low. Agreed.

3) The thing is.. i use molten armaments to QQ 1 hit people from stealth lol. Basically goes like this --> rally>camo hunter>molten weapons>charge bow heavy, animation cancel with silver shards>block>poison injection>fossilize>dragon leap. Most people die by the time Silver shards is over lolol! But yeah i do see your point.

4) Id love for stone giant to have a melee moprh and a ranged morph. Obvioulsy the melee one would do more damage and would take the place of a class based execute. Tbh tho.. I dont think this moprh would replace 2H WB or executioner unless something magical happens with the dk balance patch and they give us some sexy synergy that is clearly better than 2h....

EDIT: also 3200 stamina seems like an awfully huge cost. Think WB was ard 2.5k or something. Unless im ,mistaken in which case my bad haha. Like im OK with it not being an execute. It could be a main melee stam dump skill to take WB's place. It would have to have compelling damage or some utility to overtake WB in regards to this aspect. Im perfectly fine with executioner as my stam execute.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Interesting but what of stamina? Seriously the game been ran by magicka build since day one and shortly after 1.6 when the introduced justice and champion stamina was finally a good option for a build but magicka users just cried non-stopped saying stamina was OP and how they couldn't cast 1 shot fire balls any more.

Seriously what about us warrior and rouge type players huh? This is why I suggest 2 or 3 skills of each class tree have a stamina morph. So that you can actually build a real stamina build and it be good.

Game been ran too long by magicka users. Time for stamina to have a turn again.

tinythinker

Vangy wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Yup, I here you Dexter, Vangy, and LorDrek. My post specifically was meant for the complaints/concerns of magicka DKs, so I made sure that was in the title to not be misleading

I actually did have morph ideas on a few of the changes things to make them more stam friendly. For example, I turned Whip into a proper execute and a stam version of the Molten morph, which I've asked for in the past, would be great. Yet that has been rejected by the combat design team. If they change their mind, great. I figured I would make changes good for magicka DKs, who are in need of help, and if there were concerns/suggestions from stam DKs, go back and review/revise. And even in the original scheme proposed, changes to active abilities like Molten Weapons and passive abilities like Elder Dragon have the potential to benefit all builds.

To address specific things brought up by Vangy, I will quickly run through the numbered list.

Vangy wrote: »

1) flames of oblivion is used by my stam dk in dungeons/trials where daedra and undead are not around (I would use evil hunter if there's lots of undead etc). With this proposal there's no way she can use that.

Basically I just figured a stam DK would keep up Evil Hunter and Rally for the Major Savagery and Major Brutality buffs or use a potion, since that has been the meta for a while. The stamina-friendly morph idea I had for Inferno wouldn't have helped you, though. It was to turn Fires of Oblivion into a higher cost stamina morph that would burn hotter (higher base damage [X+25%]) and keep the higher chance to incinerate low health targets included in the version I actually posted. The buffs would have been Minor Fracture and Minor Savagery, again assuming Major Savagery would come from Hunter or a potion, so that the Minor buff would be a nice compliment.

If you want it to keep Major Savagery and be a stam-friendly morph, perhaps it could do less damage per second (maybe [x - 15%] or [x - 25%] or thereabouts) and keep the higher incineration chance. It would also need to cost stamina rather than magicka, and possibly have a smaller radius (6 or 8 meters), to avoid imbalance. I would also buff the other morph in some minor way for balance as well, maybe slightly upping the recovery per enemy who dies a bit to something like 1200 health and magicka.

So basically this:

Flames of Oblivion (Morph of Inferno)
1000 stamina per second | Toggle | 6 meter radius (centered on caster)

Activate an aura of flames, dealing [x - 15%] Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second and granting you Major Savagery, which increases your Weapon Critical by 10%. There is a [5/6/7/8%] chance that very low health targets will take an additional [y] flame damage, instantly incinerating them.

I actually like this change, since my originally proposed version of revising Flames of Oblivion was the one thing I was never quite satisfied with. It has a smaller radius but a greater chance of dusting people, which goes up even more because of the Major Savagery boost.

Vangy wrote: »

2) pretty nice changes to db. Except 1% stam recovery is like nothing. If u run 1500 stam regen 1% is like 15. And no stam dks can't afford to slot more than 2 draconic power abilities let alone on the same bar lol. Top picks are reflective, fossilize (I think). No magicka to really use db effectively.

I agree about boosting the stam recovery for the Elder Dragon passive, but I often focus on concepts rather than numbers my first run through, and if folks think they are too low I can up them. I was going to simply insert "and Stamina" between "Health" and "Recovery" to make it a 3% boost for both but often people say the numbers I use to illustrate my concepts are OP so I started off conservative.

Vangy wrote: »

3) molten armaments is nice but why only affect spell damage? I would expect one morph to benefit magicka / spell crit damage and the other to boost weapon/ weapon crit damage. With these changes you will be taking a big part of the stam dks stealth burst in pvp.

Actually, at the moment, neither stam nor magicka DKs get much from any version of Molten Weapons, so my changes don't take away anything .

But if you look at the passives for Earthen Heart, Mountain's Blessing gives the caster and allies Minor Brutality (+5% weapon damage) for 10/20 seconds, so, if you look at my proposed version of Molten Armaments, you get Minor Sorcery (+5% spell) and Minor Force (+15% to any type of crit damage) for 20 seconds at Rank IV. So, cast Molten at Rank IV with Rank II Mountain and everyone gets a boost to weapon, spell, and crit damage for 20 seconds.

Remember, I am taking Molten Weapons and its morphs *back* to being utility/support based, so nearby allies get the buffs, too. Having buffs segregated by weapon/physical and spell emphasis would run counter to that.

Vangy wrote: »

4) flame whip is central to a magicka dk in pve and pvp depending on the morph u choose so I'm not going to ask for a stam whip. But why not a similar set up for stam dks with stone fist? We can make it do exactly what whip does but catered for a stam set up. That way stam dks don't need to rely on Wb.

I am not opposed to that per se, but it is an early unlock ability so making it expensive/costly enough to be an execute could be a problem. It's kind of the DK version of Crystal Shard, but without a Mage's Fury to pair it with. If you wanted to try it, though, I would go with this:

Stone Giant (Morph of Stonefist)
3200 Stamina | Instant cast | 12 meter range | Target = single enemy

Slam an enemy with solid rock to deal [x] Physical Damage and knock them down for 3 seconds. Targets below is below 20% health take an additional [y] Damage from the impact.

It isn't a pure execute, but you can spam it at range, so the boost to low health targets would need to be modest.

As I mentioned, I wouldn't mind making the non-healing Whip stam but I don't see it happening. The thinking on the part of the devs seems to be that stam users have more weapon skill line options so magicka users should have more class skill line options. That's why my proposed changes are more likely to help stam builds through class buffs, to which the devs are more amenable.

Hey thanks for the write up!

1) I would LOVE to have that morph of FOB. Yes please thank you come again. Me like. In case im not being clear: i want this now ZOS.

2) Sure the numbers need to be tweaked to a little higher. 1 % sooo low. Agreed.

3) The thing is.. i use molten armaments to QQ 1 hit people from stealth lol. Basically goes like this --> rally>camo hunter>molten weapons>charge bow heavy, animation cancel with silver shards>block>poison injection>fossilize>dragon leap. Most people die by the time Silver shards is over lolol! But yeah i do see your point.

4) Id love for stone giant to have a melee moprh and a ranged morph. Obvioulsy the melee one would do more damage and would take the place of a class based execute. Tbh tho.. I dont think this moprh would replace 2H WB or executioner unless something magical happens with the dk balance patch and they give us some sexy synergy that is clearly better than 2h....

EDIT: also 3200 stamina seems like an awfully huge cost. Think WB was ard 2.5k or something. Unless im ,mistaken in which case my bad haha. Like im OK with it not being an execute. It could be a main melee stam dump skill to take WB's place. It would have to have compelling damage or some utility to overtake WB in regards to this aspect. Im perfectly fine with executioner as my stam execute.

Glad you liked the suggestions.

Hmm, yeah, for Stone Giant I wasn't sure what the cost in stam should be for something that does base damage, a knockdown, and extra damage to low health targets. I changed it anyway in my revises original posting since you are OK with something stam based to spam. Also added in the new Flames of Oblivion and the 3% stamina recovery.

tinythinker

Ishammael wrote: »

Cool ideas! I like most of them. Some are probably a little to stronk (e.g. execute on molten whip), but that OK.

I intentionally only scaled it up to 150% for low health targets (not 300% like some abilities) to keep it from being OP. It already does good damage so i figured that was plenty, but it could be too much. I am happy to entertain suggestions for a more reasonable percentage for extra damage.