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Cultural Affiliation Concept

Gidorick
Gidorick
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ZOS could greatly enhance the racial variety of ESO with the addition of Affiliations, this would accomplish two things:
  • Change the initial passive of the race
  • Offer the player different character creation options
Only the initial passive would be different for each Affiliation, the other rank-dependent passives would remain the same. The initial passives could be shared among the different Affiliations to offer a larger variety in player choice.

For example: The Heavy Armor Expertise is the initial passive skill for the Orcs. It could also be used as the Initial Passive of The Legion (Imperial Sub), The Stormfists (Nord Sub) and the Crowns (Redguard Sub).

Different character creation options could be provided with different hairstyles, different skin tones and different adornments.

Each race could have a number of Affiliations. In the below list, I suggest 3 Affiliations for each race. This would give each race a total of 4 Affiliation options (unaffiliated would be the first). I pulled these groups from lore, but I'm sure ZOS would be able to make up a few of their own.

Altmer
  • Direnni
  • Psijics
  • Thalmor
Argonian
  • Tum-Taleel
  • Gee-Rusleel
  • Wasseek-Haleel
Bosmer
  • Shadow Walker
  • Green One
  • Camoran
Breton
  • Reachmen
  • Forsworn
  • Wyrd
Dunmer
  • Ashlander
  • Bal Molagmer
  • Camonna Tong
Imperial
  • Dragonguard
  • Battlelords
  • The Legion
Khajiit
  • Baandari
  • Renrijra Krin
  • Renrijra Maor
Orsimer
  • Seamount Orcs
  • Iron Orcs
  • Wood Orcs
Nord
  • Skaal
  • Sovngarde
  • Stormfists
Redguard
  • Ash'taba
  • Crowns
  • Ra'Gada

ZOS could add an Affiliation pack in the crown store to give players access to the Affiliations. If they only used the passives that are currently available from the other races, we would avoid this being a pay-to-win type thing.

So what do you think? Would Affiliations be a welcomed addition to ESO?
Edited by Gidorick on June 19, 2016 7:03AM
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  • AngryNord
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    Dragonguard, Battleguard, Legion, Crons and Thalmor races? uuuhh...
  • Gidorick
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    AngryNord wrote: »
    Dragonguard, Battleguard, Legion, Crons and Thalmor races? uuuhh...

    Sub-Cultures....

    Dragonguard:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragonguard

    Battlelords:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Battlelords

    Legion:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imperial_Legion

    Crowns:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Crowns

    Thalmor:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Thalmor

    And... what do you think of the CONCEPT @AngryNord, not just of the suggested sub-cultures? If you like the concept but think other sub-cultures fit better, please let us know which ones!

    Edited by Gidorick on October 9, 2015 9:37AM
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  • BabeestorGor
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    Good idea but a lot of the subraces listed aren't cultural groups, they are organisations.
    For Dunmer I'd suggest Ashlander and Great House, for Imperial Colovian and Nibenese, for Redguard Crown, Forebear and Alik'r etc. Some of them are political divisions but long enough established to have an effect on culture.
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  • NovaMarx
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    I like the idea. But, then again, I'm all for this kind of thing :wink:

    It should be "easy" enough to implement, as it would just be adding new passives. But something like this should/could not be implemented before race change is possible, for the simple reason that people may not like the passives added to their chosen race. People generally do not like it when you change something that makes them negatively reflect on their choice, and if they can't change to another race they may become quite discontent. (We see it now with all the changes being made to classes, etc., that make people wish they had chosen another class/race).

    But I would still like to see it happen :smiley:
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  • Gidorick
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    Good idea but a lot of the subraces listed aren't cultural groups, they are organisations.
    For Dunmer I'd suggest Ashlander and Great House, for Imperial Colovian and Nibenese, for Redguard Crown, Forebear and Alik'r etc. Some of them are political divisions but long enough established to have an effect on culture.

    I agree.

    I went through the factions and chose the "best fit" options for some of the races. Some of the races, like the Altmer, are known for cohesion... so they don't really have splintered sub-cultures like the Orcs. I would more than welcome ZOS to create some lore for some of the sub-cultures.

    I did actually look through the Dunmer Houses and couldn't choose between them. :lol:
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  • Volkodav
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    Didnt I see your other post on this?
  • Junkogen
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    ZOS could greatly enhance the racial variety of ESO with the addition of sub-cultures. A sub-culture could do two things:
    • Change the initial passive of the race
    • Offer the player different character creation options
    Only the initial passive would be different for each sub-culture, the other rank-dependent passives would remain the same. The initial passives could be shared among the different sub-races to offer a larger variety in player choice.

    For example: The Heavy Armor Expertise is the initial passive skill for the Orcs. It could also be used as the Initial Passive of The Legion (Imperial Sub), The Stormfists (Nord Sub) and the Crowns (Redguard Sub).

    Different character creation options could be provided with different hairstyles, different skin tones and different adornments.

    Each race could have a number of sub-cultures. In the below list, I suggest 3 sub-cultures each. This would give each race a total of 4 options. I pulled these groups from lore, but I'm sure ZOS would be able to make up a few of their own.

    Altmer
    • Direnni
    • Psijics
    • Thalmor
    Argonian
    • Tum-Taleel
    • Gee-Rusleel
    • Wasseek-Haleel
    Bosmer
    • Shadow Walker
    • Green One
    • Camoran
    Breton
    • Reachmen
    • Forsworn
    • Wyrd
    Dunmer
    • Ashlander
    • Bal Molagmer
    • Camonna Tong
    Imperial
    • Dragonguard
    • Battlelords
    • The Legion
    Khajiit
    • Baandari
    • Renrijra Krin
    • Renrijra Maor
    Orsimer
    • Seamount Orcs
    • Iron Orcs
    • Wood Orcs
    Nord
    • Skaal
    • Sovngarde
    • Stormfists
    Redguard
    • Ash'taba
    • Crowns
    • Ra'Gada

    ZOS could add a Sub-Race pack in the crown store to give players access to the sub-races. If they only used the passives that are currently available from the other races, we would avoid this being a pay-to-win type thing.

    So what do you think? Would sub-cultures be a welcomed addition to ESO?

    I like the concept, but why have only the initial passive different? It's the most meaningless one. Once you level the skill to 50, it's useless. I would like to see maybe one passive the same that's very race specific and then the rest different to allow for more racial diversity.
  • Gidorick
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    Didnt I see your other post on this?
    I think you mean this: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/223185/alternatives-to-adding-races-to-eso/p1

    that post includes this concept but it has more than this concept. It's actually more of a collection of concepts. This thread is more focused. :wink:
    Edited by Gidorick on October 26, 2015 7:26AM
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  • TheShadowScout
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    Personally I dislike the idea of changing existing stuff... but in this case, the change would be so minor, it hardly counted in the long run, so it would be okay.

    I would still rather see something else though... like maybe "Backgrounds", that adds a selectable new selection to the already existing racial passives. Like, how did your Dunmer character grow up - in one of the noble houses (magica background) or as a common labourer (stamina background) or as ashlander outcast (thoughness background). I think similar splits could be fiound among many races (the noble-commoner-outcast thing, or maybe in some cases traditionalist-reformer-other, like for Orsimer with "mauloch orcs - trinimac orcs - wood orcs"...)

    Such backgrounds could add a small selection of new passives to any race, and have those be a mix of combat and non-combat advantages... like, a dunmer noble has not just advantages with magica, but also gets reduced prices from vendors in dunmer lands because they want to net a noble regular to their store, and a dunmer commoner also has some crafting advantage besides their stamina passives, and a ashlander has a gathering bonus in addition to their toughness passives, etc.

    And perhaps they could even have a negative passive for flavor... like, say, Ashlanders are not trusted by the tribunal guard, and thus suffer a 50% penalty to all bounty gains in tribunal lands, whereas dunmer nobles have a reputation as slaveholders, and thus suffer penalties in argonian lands...
  • Korah_Eaglecry
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    AngryNord wrote: »
    Dragonguard, Battleguard, Legion, Crons and Thalmor races? uuuhh...

    Sub-Cultures....

    Dragonguard:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragonguard

    Battlelords:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Battlelords

    Legion:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imperial_Legion

    Crowns:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Crowns

    Thalmor:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Thalmor

    And... what do you think of the CONCEPT @AngryNord, not just of the suggested sub-cultures? If you like the concept but think other sub-cultures fit better, please let us know which ones!

    Those really arent cultures. Theyre organizations and titles. Im all for the idea but they need to be a little more fleshed out.
    Edited by Korah_Eaglecry on May 29, 2016 2:00AM
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  • RAGUNAnoOne
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    so subcultures that basically are nothing but a renaming of a race and changing the EXP bonus passive... sorry gidorick not seeing your usual flair in this one. My idea to expand would be you pick one culture at startup or if the character is already made talk to a NPC and you get a crafting style that is exclusive to that culture NO MOTIFS to learn them. as a result if you like a specific culture style you must trade or create an alt to craft it something like that. culture changes can be crown store items.
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  • starkerealm
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    AngryNord wrote: »
    Dragonguard, Battleguard, Legion, Crons and Thalmor races? uuuhh...

    "BY CRON!"

    But, yeah. Not really feeling these suggestions, Gidorick. Maybe as guilds with their own progression lines for some of these, or some kind of background option for some like Foresworn. Others, like Crowns are political, so membership could be fleeting... I just don't see it. Maybe for a single player game, but not for an MMO.
  • Gidorick
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    AngryNord wrote: »
    Dragonguard, Battleguard, Legion, Crons and Thalmor races? uuuhh...

    Sub-Cultures....

    Dragonguard:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragonguard

    Battlelords:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Battlelords

    Legion:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Imperial_Legion

    Crowns:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Crowns

    Thalmor:
    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Thalmor

    And... what do you think of the CONCEPT @AngryNord, not just of the suggested sub-cultures? If you like the concept but think other sub-cultures fit better, please let us know which ones!

    Those really arent cultures. Theyre organizations and titles. Im all for the idea but they need to be a little more fleshed out.

    Yea, I know they're not @Korah_Eaglecry , not all of the races are as diverse as others. Perhaps culture is the wrong word... associations? Allegiances? @TheShadowScout suggests backgrounds, which could work.
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  • Gidorick
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    I'll admit @RAGUNAnoOne & @starkerealm this idea is was trying to incorporate multiple things in TES that didn't seem to "fit" anywhere else. Since this is an MMO there needs to be parity between classes.

    So I was wondering how a player could actually BE Reachmen, Forsworn, or Ra'Gada. These groups are cultural groups within the TES franchise and I believe players should be able to make a character that affiliates with these groups. Some of these groups could be considered a sub-race of races... some are just sub cultures. The I started looking at the groups available to the other races and I stated to see that not all races have sub-races or sub-cultures. There are guilds, houses, political groups, bandit groups... all sorts of groups in Tamriel, but not a whole lot that would be considered sub-races.

    And since this is an MMO, if you give one group an option, you have to give another group a similar option. So I went about finding groups that are associated closely with each race.

    The biggest benefits to Affiliations would be new options in the character creation menu... but I thought it would be nice to have something in skills as well, but didn't want to suggesting anything that would break the current skills.... starting skills seemed like a pretty logical target for change.

    I would be completely up for a Racial Morph similar to @TheShadowScout 's Class Morph but I don't think these sub-race/culture/whatevers should offer equal benefits as the regular race. You are first your race, then you are second your sub-race. More skills would be cool with me, but I don't think it should be a full set of racial abilities.

    Hmm... perhaps "Affiliations" might describe this concept better.
    Edited by Gidorick on May 29, 2016 1:29PM
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  • AzraelKrieg
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    While I like the concept, it may cause other issues. That aside, Reachman is a distinct group outside of Breton.
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  • Daraugh
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    Oooh, I like it! I actually wouldn't care for it in the creation screen, I think it would be overly complex for an mmo although the complexity would be correct for a TES game. It would be most interesting if you encountered the opportunity to become Affiliated while questing.

    One of those choices that matter quests during the first zone.

    I'd actually play a Dark Elf if I could be Affiliated with the Ashlanders or an Altmer if I could be Affiliated with the Psijics outside of my own head.
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  • TheShadowScout
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    The biggest benefits to Affiliations would be new options in the character creation menu... but I thought it would be nice to have something in skills as well, but didn't want to suggesting anything that would break the current skills.... starting skills seemed like a pretty logical target for change.

    I would be completely up for a Racial Morph similar to @TheShadowScout 's Class Morph but I don't think these sub-race/culture/whatevers should offer equal benefits as the regular race. You are first your race, then you are second your sub-race. More skills would be cool with me, but I don't think it should be a full set of racial abilities.

    Hmm... perhaps "Affiliations" might describe this concept better.
    That is why I am thinking about minor additions to the "basic" racial passives for an "backgrounds/affilations" idea... say, one combat-oriented passive (magica, stamine or toughness bonus, one way or another), one social/non-combat oriented passive, and one additional passive, either for skill advancement, or maybe even as a negative passive...

    Unlocking an "sub-race" appereance option pack would also be a possibility, though I kinda suspect the powers that be would much rather just sell those individually in the crown store...
  • Gidorick
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    That is why I am thinking about minor additions to the "basic" racial passives for an "backgrounds/affilations" idea... say, one combat-oriented passive (magica, stamine or toughness bonus, one way or another), one social/non-combat oriented passive, and one additional passive, either for skill advancement, or maybe even as a negative passive...

    Unlocking an "sub-race" appereance option pack would also be a possibility, though I kinda suspect the powers that be would much rather just sell those individually in the crown store...

    lol. You're probably right @TheShadowScout. For every concept we can put out there that would push ESO more into the realm of Role Playing Games with depth and diversity ZOS can figure out to sort-of give us what we want, but offer it in a 3d doll-house sort of way through the Crown Store. :lol:
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  • TheShadowScout
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    lol. You're probably right. For every concept we can put out there that would push ESO more into the realm of Role Playing Games with depth and diversity ZOS can figure out to sort-of give us what we want, but offer it in a 3d doll-house sort of way through the Crown Store. :lol:
    Yeah... but you know what? I'd be okay with that, I happily put my money where my mouth is if it buys me more immersions in games I like!
  • starkerealm
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    I'll admit @RAGUNAnoOne & @starkerealm this idea is was trying to incorporate multiple things in TES that didn't seem to "fit" anywhere else. Since this is an MMO there needs to be parity between classes.

    The problem I've got with this is an accessibility issue. It's asking a lot of new players as they enter the game, and it's a decision that doesn't make sense if it's deferred after character creation. A character doesn't decide, "oh, I guess I was a Reachman all along," it's baked into who they are. So, while you can put this question in front of a newbie, they're being asked to make a blind choice. The game already kind of does that with your race choices, but the races are basically cosmetic, outside of mid tier build optimization. So players can go through the content having picked the race and class they think sound most appealing.

    But, for someone who has no prior experience with the setting the choices given to them are fairly coherent. You don't need to know who the High Elves are to grasp that this is the race for your Sorcerer. And, you don't need three pages of text to explain what a Dragon Knight is and how that differs from a Nightblade.

    But, with something like Ashlanders or Reachmen, that's a major decision. Those are cultures that are completely different from the main strands of their respective races. But, it's not information that can be explained in a tool tip that's digestible to a new player.

    Further, if Ashlanders were a playable sub-race... that would need to be a lot more than just an altered passive. There are massive character implications for that, when interacting with House affiliated Dunmer. So we'd either need new dialog for them (at least in Stonefalls, Deshaan, and Bal Foyen) or the result would be ultimately cheap.

    To say nothing of how a system like this would get... well, weird. Especially when you consider all the ex-pats in the setting.

    Now, like I said, I could certainly get behind guild skill lines for groups like the the Legion, Thalmor, or Lionguard. Where the guild basically exists as a venue for daily quests and nothing else. It'd even work with the Great Houses, remembering you can only have one House affiliation at a time. And, interactions with houses are uncommon enough that you'd only need a few lines of unique dialog to sell it as a significant choice.

    But, the ethnic sub-groups that require familiarity with the setting? That's expecting a bit much at character creation. And its' something you really can't add to a character later.
  • Daraugh
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    So how if mid game, you could become a member of one of these groups? You can already become a friend to the Ashlanders as a Khajiit, there's one in Ebonhart who tells you "You'd be an asset to any tribe...if you weren't a heretic." So what if you could follow up on that? What if, as a Khajiit you ask her more about their culture, beliefs and traditions and you find they ring true for you? Being a voluntary member, adopted into a tribe after proving yourself to them makes perfect sense within this setting.

    @Gidorick what about a mid or later game addition, when you've experienced a larger variety of cultures and groups and a player has had plenty of time to think about making a choice or even remaining unaffiliated?

    Any passives would have to be really cosmetic fluff though or everyone would just join the Thalmor for the magicka passives.
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    May they find the joy that has never known suffering
    May they be free from attachment and hatred
  • Clerics1985
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    this Change in ESO would have to alter the entire code of the game it would Take years to implement. much like creating an entirely new game. you're talking about adding Sub-professions? and then you have to decipher how this is going to be implemented into the game "are you selecting this at the character select? or are you Arriving at this conclusion in the form of a Quest amongst your travels? You're expecting it to change already Set in stone passives in race trees? that seems awesome and is prevalent in games already today so i'm not against it. but Much like Removing Vet points that would be a BIG hit to their Resources OUTSIDE of DLC's which means less time to fix this lag in cyradiil and other quality of life Patches in general. Did anyone See Erik in the last ESO live segment, that dude looks like he hasn't slept in Months. He is Very likely waking up in a Cold sweat to nightmares of Avid ESO PVPers surrounding his bed with 2h Warhammers. just my opinion.
  • Gidorick
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    The problem I've got with this is an accessibility issue. It's asking a lot of new players as they enter the game, and it's a decision that doesn't make sense if it's deferred after character creation. A character doesn't decide, "oh, I guess I was a Reachman all along," it's baked into who they are. So, while you can put this question in front of a newbie, they're being asked to make a blind choice. The game already kind of does that with your race choices, but the races are basically cosmetic, outside of mid tier build optimization. So players can go through the content having picked the race and class they think sound most appealing.

    But, for someone who has no prior experience with the setting the choices given to them are fairly coherent. You don't need to know who the High Elves are to grasp that this is the race for your Sorcerer. And, you don't need three pages of text to explain what a Dragon Knight is and how that differs from a Nightblade.

    But, with something like Ashlanders or Reachmen, that's a major decision. Those are cultures that are completely different from the main strands of their respective races. But, it's not information that can be explained in a tool tip that's digestible to a new player.

    Further, if Ashlanders were a playable sub-race... that would need to be a lot more than just an altered passive. There are massive character implications for that, when interacting with House affiliated Dunmer. So we'd either need new dialog for them (at least in Stonefalls, Deshaan, and Bal Foyen) or the result would be ultimately cheap.

    To say nothing of how a system like this would get... well, weird. Especially when you consider all the ex-pats in the setting.

    Now, like I said, I could certainly get behind guild skill lines for groups like the the Legion, Thalmor, or Lionguard. Where the guild basically exists as a venue for daily quests and nothing else. It'd even work with the Great Houses, remembering you can only have one House affiliation at a time. And, interactions with houses are uncommon enough that you'd only need a few lines of unique dialog to sell it as a significant choice.

    But, the ethnic sub-groups that require familiarity with the setting? That's expecting a bit much at character creation. And its' something you really can't add to a character later.

    I totally get this concern @starkerealm and I agree with you ... to a point. I would also argue that the same concerns exist with core racial choices and... to an even greater extent.. your faction. I would have preferred it if we didn't choose a race until after we battled soul shriven versions of each race in Coldharbor. I would also prefer if we didn't choose a faction until AFTER we finished Cadwell's Gold. While we're at it, I would have also preferred if the main story had us traveling through all the lands of Tamriel collecting friends and allies for the coming battle... but I digress... and we have to make those important decisions before we ever set foot in Tamriel.

    In the example you used, where a player is choosing between an Ashlander and Reachmen, the player would first have to make the decision between Dunmer and Breton. If they chose Dunmer, they would be given the choice to choose one of three possible affiliations if they wished.

    For most players the choice would simply be between the initial passive they receive.

    Players who choose Dunmer would have the Dual Wield XP bonus or would you like..
    • XP bonus with Light Armor
    • XP bonus with Bow
    • XP bonus with Destruction Staff

    Many players simply wouldn't delve that deeply into the lore. Those that are concerned would be given the little blurbs
    • Ashlander: Tribal nomads traditionally hail from Morrowind's wilderness. They reject the authority and divinity of the Tribunal and preserve the culture of Dunmeri ancestor-worshipping.
    • Bal Molagmer: Also known as Fire Stone Men, these thieves from Vvardenfell who removes the ill-gotten possessions of the unjust to better the lives of those in need.
    • Camonna Tong: Members of a crime syndicate of the same name. Although they hold a fierce distrust for those not of Dunmeri blood, they have been known to work with other races when it is justified by their end goals.

    Those are some pretty distinct differences... I honestly think that's plenty to give players a little taste of what each affiliation offers. Couple that with the specific affiliation's custom character creation options and I think I disagree that this choice in character creation would be any less appropriate than the choices we are already making.

    If anything, it kind of makes me think the base affiliation should probably have a name that is different from the race.
    Edited by Gidorick on May 31, 2016 3:41AM
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