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Two handed or dual wield for Magicka builds
Asayre
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Update PTS 2.2.2: In the Orsinium PTS, the calculation for Twin blade and blunt and Heavy Weapons are similar thus DW is always better than 2H in Orsinium.
This post is intended for Magicka builds that used dual wielding in 1.6 for increased spell damage. It is essentially an elaboration of one particular point in my post [PTS 2.1.2 Sorcerer Arithmagic]. In my previous post, I attempted to explain that there is a threshold where two handed results in larger tooltip values than dual wielding even when taking into account the extra set bonus from dual wielding. This was because the passives Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade and Blunt are applied at different points in the calculation. I was not very specific on the threshold but provided equations that would allow one to deduce the threshold. I found that my previous post was not always clearly understood perhaps due to the impenetrability of the equations provided. In this post, I intend to first provide an argument of why two handed is sometimes favoured over dual wielding. I’ll then present the same formula as in my previous post with a bit more explanation for each equation and then give a simplified threshold for determining when to use two handed or dual wielding for maximizing your tooltip damage
At first glance, both Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade and Blunt promise to increase your weapon damage by 5% however this 5% bonus occurs at different points in calculating the tooltip value. For Twin Blade and Blunt only the spell damage component coming from the swords is boosted by 5%. In contrast, the 5% extra damage from Heavy Weapons is only applied to the final tooltip value thus there is no corresponding increase in spell damage. To simplify the argument further, Twin Blade and Blunt gives a flat increase to spell damage while the increase in tooltip damage from Heavy Weapons scales off your Magicka and spell damage from other gear (that is armour/jewellery/Apprentice Mundus). Thus at some particular point where your Magicka and spell damage from other gear is sufficiently large, using a two handed will give larger tooltip damage values than dual wielding. This is true even when taking into account the extra set bonus from using two weapons instead of one.
Now to put those words into some equations. Let us consider an arbitrary ability and the tooltip value when dual wielding swords (DW) or using a two handed sword (2H)
DW tooltip = a * (Magicka + 10.5 * DW spell damage)
2H tooltip = 1.05* a * (Magicka + 10.5 * 2H spell damage)
where a is the skill coefficient. The spell damage for dual wielding and 2H are clearly different. The spell damage for each equipment is
DW spell damage = Other gear spell damage + (DW damage* 1.2 * 1.05 + 129)*Boost
2H spell damage = Other gear spell damage + 2H damage * Boost
Other gear spell damage refers to spell damage gained from armour, jewellery and the Apprentice Mundus after applying Boost. Boost here means any spell damage boost such as Expert Mage (Sorcerer passive) or more commonly the Major Sorcery buff. Observed that I have included a 129 in the DW spell damage. This accounts for the extra spell damage coming from an additional weapon and 129 spell damage is the set bonus for a V16 Legendary Torug set. DW damage and 2H damage refers to the value listed on the pertinent weapon when you are hovering over it. In order to determine whether to use DW or 2H we simply need to calculate 2H tooltip – DW tooltip. If it is positive then we go for 2H otherwise we will dual wield. Using some arithmetic
2H Tooltip - DW Tooltip = 0.05 * a * Magicka + 0.525 * a * Other gear spell damage + 11.025 * a * Boost * (2H damage - (DW damage * 1.2 + 129/1.05)
For legendary V16 equipment, 2H damage is 1571 and DW damage is 1335. Using a typical boost value of 20% (so just getting a Major Sorcery buff)
2H Tooltip - DW Tooltip = 0.05 * a * Magicka + 0.525 * a * Other gear spell damage – 2035.53 * a
The skill coefficient, a, is always positive and thus can be safely ignored. The above equations implies that if
0.05 * Magicka + 0.525 * Other gear spell damage > 2035
then use 2H otherwise go for dual wield.
If you didn’t understand that then you can do the following
1) Unequip your weapon and boost yourself appropriately with food and Major Sorcery buff
2) Open your character sheet and record your Magicka and Spell Damage
3) Calculate the following
0.05*Magicka + 0.525*Spell damage
4) If it is higher than 2035 go for a V16 Legendary Greatsword
If not, dual wield V16 swords
If you want an even simpler threshold, here it is
Use a 2H greatsword (and put 2 points into Heavy Weapons) if you have more than 40,000 Magicka.
Final note: This only applied to damaging abilities and does not work for healing abilities with the exception of puncturing sweep since the heal is based on damage done.
Edited by Asayre on October 22, 2015 6:53PM This post is intended for Magicka builds that used dual wielding in 1.6 for increased spell damage. It is essentially an elaboration of one particular point in my post [PTS 2.1.2 Sorcerer Arithmagic]. In my previous post, I attempted to explain that there is a threshold where two handed results in larger tooltip values than dual wielding even when taking into account the extra set bonus from dual wielding. This was because the passives Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade and Blunt are applied at different points in the calculation. I was not very specific on the threshold but provided equations that would allow one to deduce the threshold. I found that my previous post was not always clearly understood perhaps due to the impenetrability of the equations provided. In this post, I intend to first provide an argument of why two handed is sometimes favoured over dual wielding. I’ll then present the same formula as in my previous post with a bit more explanation for each equation and then give a simplified threshold for determining when to use two handed or dual wielding for maximizing your tooltip damage
At first glance, both Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade and Blunt promise to increase your weapon damage by 5% however this 5% bonus occurs at different points in calculating the tooltip value. For Twin Blade and Blunt only the spell damage component coming from the swords is boosted by 5%. In contrast, the 5% extra damage from Heavy Weapons is only applied to the final tooltip value thus there is no corresponding increase in spell damage. To simplify the argument further, Twin Blade and Blunt gives a flat increase to spell damage while the increase in tooltip damage from Heavy Weapons scales off your Magicka and spell damage from other gear (that is armour/jewellery/Apprentice Mundus). Thus at some particular point where your Magicka and spell damage from other gear is sufficiently large, using a two handed will give larger tooltip damage values than dual wielding. This is true even when taking into account the extra set bonus from using two weapons instead of one.
Now to put those words into some equations. Let us consider an arbitrary ability and the tooltip value when dual wielding swords (DW) or using a two handed sword (2H)
DW tooltip = a * (Magicka + 10.5 * DW spell damage)
2H tooltip = 1.05* a * (Magicka + 10.5 * 2H spell damage)
where a is the skill coefficient. The spell damage for dual wielding and 2H are clearly different. The spell damage for each equipment is
DW spell damage = Other gear spell damage + (DW damage* 1.2 * 1.05 + 129)*Boost
2H spell damage = Other gear spell damage + 2H damage * Boost
Other gear spell damage refers to spell damage gained from armour, jewellery and the Apprentice Mundus after applying Boost. Boost here means any spell damage boost such as Expert Mage (Sorcerer passive) or more commonly the Major Sorcery buff. Observed that I have included a 129 in the DW spell damage. This accounts for the extra spell damage coming from an additional weapon and 129 spell damage is the set bonus for a V16 Legendary Torug set. DW damage and 2H damage refers to the value listed on the pertinent weapon when you are hovering over it. In order to determine whether to use DW or 2H we simply need to calculate 2H tooltip – DW tooltip. If it is positive then we go for 2H otherwise we will dual wield. Using some arithmetic
2H Tooltip - DW Tooltip = 0.05 * a * Magicka + 0.525 * a * Other gear spell damage + 11.025 * a * Boost * (2H damage - (DW damage * 1.2 + 129/1.05)
For legendary V16 equipment, 2H damage is 1571 and DW damage is 1335. Using a typical boost value of 20% (so just getting a Major Sorcery buff)
2H Tooltip - DW Tooltip = 0.05 * a * Magicka + 0.525 * a * Other gear spell damage – 2035.53 * a
The skill coefficient, a, is always positive and thus can be safely ignored. The above equations implies that if
0.05 * Magicka + 0.525 * Other gear spell damage > 2035
then use 2H otherwise go for dual wield.
If you didn’t understand that then you can do the following
1) Unequip your weapon and boost yourself appropriately with food and Major Sorcery buff
2) Open your character sheet and record your Magicka and Spell Damage
3) Calculate the following
0.05*Magicka + 0.525*Spell damage
4) If it is higher than 2035 go for a V16 Legendary Greatsword
If not, dual wield V16 swords
If you want an even simpler threshold, here it is
Use a 2H greatsword (and put 2 points into Heavy Weapons) if you have more than 40,000 Magicka.
Final note: This only applied to damaging abilities and does not work for healing abilities with the exception of puncturing sweep since the heal is based on damage done.
Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
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JDar✭✭✭✭✭Awesome post! Thank you for doing this! I will make sure to let people know about this knowledge you have shared with us!1 -
ThatNeonZebraAgain✭✭✭✭✭Excellent post, great work.Gore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
Wayra High Elf Sorceress
Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden1 -
Noerknhar✭✭✭Quick remark:
If you have 2000 Spell Damage, 20.000 Magicka is enough to go for 2h weapons
(20000*0,05 + 2000*0,525 = 2050)0 -
r.jan_emailb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Good stuff, thanks for sharing!Lairgren | DC Dragonknight - August Palatine
playing for eXile
I'm done, CU somewhere else.0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Another wonderful post, thank you. How would the calculation change if you use two willpower/sharpened over two torug/nirnhoned? Instead of the 129 spell damage, you get a whopping ~1500 magicka, but loose a bit on the spell penetration from nirn to sharpened.Edited by Leandor on September 14, 2015 12:06PM0 -
Asayre✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Noerknhar, that is if you have 2000 spell damage from other sources not including your weapon! This means your final spell power will be in the realms of 3500.Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation0 -
Noerknhar✭✭✭
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the calculation does not consider spell penetration at all. Therefore, the calculation does not change and it doesn't matter what type of trait or glyph you use, as long as they don't give you or make you lose spellpower or magicka.Another wonderful post, thank you. How would the calculation change if you use two willpower/sharpened over two torug/nirnhoned? Instead of the 129 spell damage, you get a whopping ~1500 magicka, but loose a bit on the spell penetration from nirn to sharpened.0 -
TheDarkShadow✭✭✭✭✭
✭How much different this could make? Is it significant? I mean... more damage is nice to have, but "You're like me, eh? Don't fancy those clunky two-handed weapons."
Edited by TheDarkShadow on September 14, 2015 12:16PM1 -
Asayre✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Noerknhar is right. I was simply comparing a 2H sword with dual wielding swords where dual wielding gives you an extra set bonus. In my example, the extra set bonus is assumed to be 129 Spell Damage that comes from Torugs.The trait and glyph on the weapon was not taken into account.
@Leandor, I am unclear of your question. Are you asking for a comparison between dual wielding sharpened willpower swords as opposed to a generic 2H sword thus the extra set bonus is then 1400 magicka (v16, purple willpower)? If that is the question, what jewellery are you planning to use?Edited by Asayre on September 14, 2015 12:22PMReference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation0 -
Noerknhar✭✭✭@Noerknhar, that is if you have 2000 spell damage from other sources not including your weapon! This means your final spell power will be in the realms of 3500.
Uh, many thanks for the clarification. I will have to double check that with my current set-up.
Do you have any "real life" spell damage values at hand where it starts to be beneficial?0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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Good call, I should have specified better. This is actually a very specific question, valid for my planned Templar setup. To minimize the gear grind, I intend to build her around 5pcs healer, 5pcs kagrenac, and either 1HS on both bars or 1HS (healing bar) + DW (damage bar). Since I will use the healer jewellery, the question for me is whether it is better to use torug 2pcs or willpower 2pcs for the DW damage bar.@Leandor, I am unclear of your question. Are you asking for a comparison between dual wielding sharpened willpower swords as opposed to a generic 2H sword thus the extra set bonus is then 1400 magicka (v16, purple willpower)? If that is the question, what jewellery are you planning to use?
I understand that the calculation is not that straight-forward because of better trait usage (my initial plan was an infused shield with a prismatic rune and a nirnhoned mace for visual reasons), but I changed my mind to go more damage with DW on the attack bar.
Now, with said setup, I do think that I can go beyond the break-even point from your above evaluation stats wise, but seeing that I give up the ~1500 magicka on golden DW swords, it may raise the bar higher than what I can reach with using the willpower set over a 2H sword.Edited by Leandor on September 14, 2015 12:41PM1 -
Asayre✭✭✭✭✭
✭@TheDarkShadow, compute
2H tooltip/DW tooltip = (1.05*(Magicka+10.5*(SD_other+SD_2H*Boost)) / ((Magicka+10.5*(SD_other+(SD_DW*1.2*1.05+129)*Boost))))
@Noerknhar, that's a rather tough question... I guess after the IC update most people will be using at least 1 piece Molag Kena (129 SD) and 3 pieces of the willpower set (186 SD). Not sure how many champion points you have so I have no clue on whether or not you'll need cost reduction on your jewellery. Let's say you do and just guessing that you have roughly another 129 spell damage from some other set. So I'll estimate a SD of around 440 at a minimum which would mean you would need around 36,000 Magicka.Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation0 -
Asayre✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Leandor, that is quite a challenging question since it depends on many variables. I'm just sort of guessing here but dual wielding sharpened willpower swords is mostly likely the best approach. This is because with about 60 CP in the Mage constellations and ~20% increase to your max magicka (6% undaunted, 10% Breton, 7% Inner light) that 1500 magicka will actually be ~2k magicka which is roughly 190 Spell Damage. Following my calculation, you will need
0.05*Magicka + 0.525*Spell damage > 2804
From memory Kagrenac's and Healer will give you around ~340 SD which means you need something around 52k Magicka which is pretty much unachievable without a HUGE amount of CP. The loss of 4% of penetration is harder to calculate since it depends on the target's armour. I can't really add much about that without doing a few charts and in the end the answer would be rather contrived. Finally, if you ever wanted to slot breath of life on your damage bar, dual wielding is better since the Heavy Weapons passive doesn't apply to healing but Twin Blade and Blunt does.Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation0 -
ThatNeonZebraAgain✭✭✭✭✭What effect does Sharpened trait have for Magicka builds? Sharpened doesn't affect spell/magic/elemental penetration or damage, does it? This is the third time I've seen sharpened weapon traits come up for Magicka builds and I don't understand why...Edited by ThatNeonZebraAgain on September 14, 2015 1:10PMGore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
Wayra High Elf Sorceress
Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden0 -
Leon119✭✭✭✭Slightly unrelated question but the dual wield expert passive that increases offhand weapons weapon dmg value has no benefit on your spell damage ?0 -
r.jan_emailb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Slightly unrelated question but the dual wield expert passive that increases offhand weapons weapon dmg value has no benefit on your spell damage ?
It does, read the second paragraph in the OP.Lairgren | DC Dragonknight - August Palatine
playing for eXile
I'm done, CU somewhere else.0 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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Thanks alot, mate, much appreciated.@Leandor, that is quite a challenging question since it depends on many variables. I'm just sort of guessing here but dual wielding sharpened willpower swords is mostly likely the best approach. This is because with about 60 CP in the Mage constellations and ~20% increase to your max magicka (6% undaunted, 10% Breton, 7% Inner light) that 1500 magicka will actually be ~2k magicka which is roughly 190 Spell Damage. Following my calculation, you will need
0.05*Magicka + 0.525*Spell damage > 2804
From memory Kagrenac's and Healer will give you around ~340 SD which means you need something around 52k Magicka which is pretty much unachievable without a HUGE amount of CP. The loss of 4% of penetration is harder to calculate since it depends on the target's armour. I can't really add much about that without doing a few charts and in the end the answer would be rather contrived. Finally, if you ever wanted to slot breath of life on your damage bar, dual wielding is better since the Heavy Weapons passive doesn't apply to healing but Twin Blade and Blunt does.
By the way, it gets even more complicated, that templar is an imperial, does not do PvE (hence no undaunted passive) and uses radiant over inner light. The build is made for IC group healing primarily and a lot of emphasis is given on survival over damage. From what I can see, I will end up at less than 40k magicka, even with the best possible enchants, simply due to the lack of percentage bonuses. When it comes to fruition, I guess I will be at ~360 CP, maybe a bit more, so no huge amounts as well.
I intend to use repentance on my damage bar, together with vampire (bat swarm slotted) that's 20% magicka regeneration, with two regeneration set bonuses and 40 points in arcanist, I should be good for magicka regen. Since the V14 enchants for damage etc. are rather lacklustre, I'll stick with cost reduction, along with 40 points in magician. Another 40 points are scheduled for tumbling, again for survivability increase. To get the sustainability up, I will dump all additional points into magician.
Imperial allows me to go full magicka, maybe at the cost of having to use purple food over blue mag/stam, and with the health set bonus I should be at around 25k health with the purple food, together with 15k stamina. That base covered, and calculating with the willpower magicka bonus, maybe slotting structured entropy, I should be able to reach at least 35k magicka, but not much higher.
It's a strange build idea, I know, but it's what I like to test. If it doesn't play out, I can always go 3pcs willpower, 5pcs kagrenac and 4 pcs phoenix as an alternative. Being a templar, I just like the res time decrease too much to let that one go, upon reaching AR 24 and another 30% reduction, I'll be at a second res time - invaluable in IC group vs. group, I think.Edited by Leandor on September 14, 2015 1:19PM0 -
r.jan_emailb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Talking about a pvp setup you should keep in mind that @Asayre is doing pure number crunching here. Going for maximum damage might not be the best option for you, if a dw allows you to use another set bonus you need. This is something that is difficult to answer from doing equations alone
Lairgren | DC Dragonknight - August Palatine
playing for eXile
I'm done, CU somewhere else.2 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
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Sharpened increases both, physical and spell penetration, just not as much as nirnhoned for the spell part.ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »What effect does Sharpened trait have for Magicka builds? Sharpened doesn't affect spell/magic/elemental penetration or damage, does it? This is the third time I've seen sharpened weapon traits come up for Magicka builds and I don't understand why...1 -
Leon119✭✭✭✭Assuming that the set bonus you get from the extra weapon with DW is magicka and not spell damage how will the equation change if you take into consideration the magicka % increases from undaunted, bound armor, inner light, mages guild, breton racial and champion points. will the threshold of 2035 change ?0
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ChefZero✭✭✭✭1) Unequip your weapon and boost yourself appropriately with food and Major Sorcery buff
2) Open your character sheet and record your Magicka and Spell Damage
3) Calculate the following
0.05*Magicka + 0.525*Spell damage
4) If it is higher than 2035 go for a V16 Legendary Greatsword
If not, dual wield V16 swords
If you want an even simpler threshold, here it is
Use a 2H greatsword (and put 2 points into Heavy Weapons) if you have more than 40,000 Magicka.
Final note: This only applied to damaging abilities and does not work for healing abilities with the exception of puncturing sweep since the heal is based on damage done.
2035, this value can't be right. Tested these things last day with old gear too.
DW equipped:
Magicdamage 1850
Magicka 32,5k
2H equipped:
Magicdamage 1650
Magicka 32,5k
Tooltip Dmg on 2H was a bit higher. So the value should be lower.PC EU - DC only0 -
Asayre✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ChefZero, that 2035 threshold ONLY applies for legendary v16 weapons. I don't know the thresholds for V14 gear. You can repeat the calculations for the threshold for v14 gearReference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation0 -
d8rmir✭✭✭Wait. Using these data:
DW tooltip = a * (Magicka + 10.5 * DW spell damage)
2H tooltip = a * (Magicka + 10.5 * 2H spell damage)
I have
2H tooltip - DW tooltip = a * (Magicka + 10.5 * 2H spell damage) - a * (Magicka + 10.5 * DW spell damage) = b * (2H spell damage - DW spell damage)
where b= 10.5 a is another positive constant. So how can the final result depend on Magicka?
PS: compared with your other post, you're missing a coefficient 1.05 in 2H tooltip. The successive computation is consistent with this. Please edit!Edited by d8rmir on September 18, 2015 9:14AM0 -
Asayre✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ChefZero, The number comes from doing the calculation. This is based on testing and understanding how the passives Heavy Weapon and Twin Blade and Blunt are applied.
@d8rmir, Thank you for pointing that out! I totally forgot to add the 1.05. I've edited it in.Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation0 -
d8rmir✭✭✭And in case my greatsword is already my second Torug item, do I understand correctly that the formula becomes
2H spell damage = Other gear spell damage + (2H damage + 129) * Boost
and it's an easy win for 2H, threshold value being around 400 and 10k Magicka being enough? Then a third Torug item gives an irrelevant health bonus, right?
By the way great job, it's not the first time I read something written by you. Looking forward to your next post.0 -
Asayre✭✭✭✭✭
✭@d8rmir, yea if you already have another torug's piece then you can do what you propose or remove the 129 from the dual wield. I guess the entire purpose was to show that 2H can better than dual wielding despite the extra set bonus. The easiest set bous to consider was the 129 spell damage from torug.
Thanks for the kind comment. I don't know what else to post about really. I suppose if someone has a good question. I'll try to answer it.Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation1 -
MrTarkanian48✭✭✭✭Couple questions:
1) You said go DW for Templar healing since 2H does not effect healing. Would this apply to an Magicka Nightblade running Funnel Health, or will 2H be beneficial as it is a damage/heal?
2) I've scoured the patch notes to see if they did anything to get Destro staff closer to the Spell Damage of 2H/DW, but cannot find anything? Is destro still way behind DW/2H for Spell Damage, and if so, how much approximately? I just like the idea of the utility of running destro/restro vs (DW/2H)/Restro.Wood Elf Stam NB (PVP)
Redguard Stam Sorc (PVP)
Altmer NB (DPS)
Imperial DK (Tank)
Redguard DK (DPS)
Altmer Templar (Healer)
EP - PS41