Twin Blade and Blunt (Sword passive) - Calculating errounously?

Goresnort

Hoy!

The calculations for added sword damage seem bugged on the 2.1.3 PTS build.

On the live client , if I dual wield two maces, and then swap to one sword and one mace, ability tool tip damage increases by 2.9% for a specific test ability (Hidden Blade).

This seems to behave as expected, since the passive dmg component for equipping a sword states "EACH sword equipped increases the damage of your weapon attacks by 2.5%"

On the PTS client however,if I dual wield two maces, and then swap to one sword and one mace, ability tool tip damage increases by 0.86%.
(A difference of 2%+ compared to live)

Further on the PTS, if I dual wield two maces, and then swap to two swords, ability tool tip damage increases by 1,49%.

Interestingly, the PTS client now displays a change in the weapon damage stat on your char sheet for having the sword component of the passive active, while Live does not.

Doing the same comparison for the weapon damage stat on pts, I got the following results.

If I dual wield two maces, and then swap to one sword and one mace, the weapon damage value increases by 1.56%.

If I dual wield two maces, and then swap to two swords, the weapon damage value increases by 2.61%.

I almost looks like the formula is calculating differently now, where the passive now (PTS) calculates directly of your weapon damage value, and not the adjusted ability dmg.

Furthermore it seems one sword is applying about only half the listed bonus, while two swords give approx the 2.5%. Whereas it should be 2x 2.5%.

Bottom line is that the sword component of the Twin Blade and Blunt passive seems to calculate errounously on the PTS, and the value of the sword component seems to have decreased from 2.5% to either approx 1.5% (weapon dmage) or 0,86% (tooltip damage).

All testing done with a copied live character using the same gear. The swords and the maces where of the same traits, set, level and quality. (VR 14 legendary sharpend mace vs VR 14 legendary sharpend sword).

Kindly give the calculations a peek and see if anything untowards is going on

Alcast

They changed the passive from 5% more damage to 5% more WEAPON damage. that is why it is worse i guess.

Before Overall dmg by 5%
Now 5% more Weapon dmg

Goresnort

Alcast wrote: »

They changed the passive from 5% more damage to 5% more WEAPON damage. that is why it is worse i guess.

Before Overall dmg by 5%
Now 5% more Weapon dmg

Aye, but it seems to be giving 2.5% weapon damage for two swords equipped, and not 5%.

So half the value for what is listed for one sword in the tooltip.

Alcast

hm okay, I hope you sent a bugreport. Also, I dont know why they changed it? Quite strange.

Goresnort

Alcast wrote: »

hm okay, I hope you sent a bugreport. Also, I dont know why they changed it? Quite strange.

Aye, bugrep has been sent : )

Derra

2h swords are still giving 5% flat damage. If they nerf something they should atleast be consistent with it...

@ZOS_GinaBruno is this an intended nerf to DW and why did 2h sword not "suffer" in the same way?

asneakybanana

Alcast wrote: »

hm okay, I hope you sent a bugreport. Also, I dont know why they changed it? Quite strange.

Because overload sorcs running dw swords were getting the 5% damage bonus

bowmanz607

asneakybanana wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

hm okay, I hope you sent a bugreport. Also, I dont know why they changed it? Quite strange.

Because overload sorcs running dw swords were getting the 5% damage bonus

But wrobell said that that is intended and they like it for versatility. So why change it?

Ezareth

Can you post the direct numbers you found all your other passives etc affecting the calculation?

They changed a lot of back end formulas this patch. It is possible the buff was multiplicative prior and is now additive. Also remember that most buffs used to bypass the Cyrodiil Battle spirit buff or were additive with it and now most if not all of them are affected by it which could be why everything seems reduced by half of what you would expect.

Are you testing in Craglorn or something or Cyrodiil?

Suru

bowmanz607 wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

hm okay, I hope you sent a bugreport. Also, I dont know why they changed it? Quite strange.

Because overload sorcs running dw swords were getting the 5% damage bonus

But wrobell said that that is intended and they like it for versatility. So why change it?

They intended swords to give more "Power".

I'll have to retest but the last passive in the DW does not increase magika abilites like the 2H ability (Forceful)? where you do x% more damage equipping a greatsword. Making a sharpened master greatsword the better option for a max spell damage/magika set up.

Havent really checked the wording on PTS (since this hasnt been the thing ive been concerned about) but on live DW twin blades and blunt states "while using DW abilites" in which i had no damage increase and the two handed sword passive says "while wielding a 2H weapon do x% more dmge" in which this causes frags, curse, overload and such to increase in damage.

can't really be bothered/have the cash to respec 2/3 times again when the games core combat mechanics are being changed but if anyone wants to test it go ahead if you refute my above statement.

But 2 swords do more dmge because of two weapons "Power" being overall greater than the "power" of one staff. When you look at a gold sword and a gold staff they will have the same value of X, but with staves you can only wield one while with swords can wield 2x "X" power.

bowmanz607

Suru wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

hm okay, I hope you sent a bugreport. Also, I dont know why they changed it? Quite strange.

Because overload sorcs running dw swords were getting the 5% damage bonus

But wrobell said that that is intended and they like it for versatility. So why change it?

They intended swords to give more "Power".

I'll have to retest but the last passive in the DW does not increase magika abilites like the 2H ability (Forceful)? where you do x% more damage equipping a greatsword. Making a sharpened master greatsword the better option for a max spell damage/magika set up.

Havent really checked the wording on PTS (since this hasnt been the thing ive been concerned about) but on live DW twin blades and blunt states "while using DW abilites" in which i had no damage increase and the two handed sword passive says "while wielding a 2H weapon do x% more dmge" in which this causes frags, curse, overload and such to increase in damage.

can't really be bothered/have the cash to respec 2/3 times again when the games core combat mechanics are being changed but if anyone wants to test it go ahead if you refute my above statement.

But 2 swords do more dmge because of two weapons "Power" being overall greater than the "power" of one staff. When you look at a gold sword and a gold staff they will have the same value of X, but with staves you can only wield one while with swords can wield 2x "X" power.

I am not home right now so can't check but I am pretty sure it states "while duel weilding" not using abilities but simply having 2 weapons. Regardless, I know for an absolute fact dw swords gives magicka users more damage. It is what many magicka users use to max dps. The key is making them 2 pc torugs pact on them giving you more spell damage. So between dw bonus and the 2 pc bonus you get better than 2h. This is currently how it is on live. Check out sypher videos to confirm this. I am not home or else I would post some myself. Also, like 3 eso lives ago wrobell confirmed this, siad it was intended, and that they liked it. However, I have not tested on pts to see 8f they have changed it. So no clue on that.

Asayre

I tested this in the previous patch 2.1.2 but the 5% is being applied only to the spell power that comes from your weapon. Say you have two legendary swords/maces without the passive your spell damage is 1602 (1335=*1.2, 1335 being the stated weapon damage for the sword). With 2 points in the passive the spell damage remains the same for the maces but with the swords this is increased by 5% to 1682 (=1335*1.2*1.05). It does not increase your total spell damage. You were probably considering your total spell damage instead of just that coming from the weapons.

Goresnort

Asayre wrote: »

I tested this in the previous patch 2.1.2 but the 5% is being applied only to the spell power that comes from your weapon. Say you have two legendary swords/maces without the passive your spell damage is 1602 (1335=*1.2, 1335 being the stated weapon damage for the sword). With 2 points in the passive the spell damage remains the same for the maces but with the swords this is increased by 5% to 1682 (=1335*1.2*1.05). It does not increase your total spell damage. You were probably considering your total spell damage instead of just that coming from the weapons.

Thanks for the Insight! Nice to know

Unfortunatly, that does still not answer the original question

I tested your numbers, and they are correct. But they still only answer how it is currently calculated on the PTS.

We dont know if the devs intended it this way, or if having it only increase the base stat from the weapon is an error that occured while they worked on the back end calculations for the current pts build.

Lets look at some final calculated tooltip values.

Live Client Whirwind Mace/Sword -> Sword/Sword -> tooltip dmg increased 2.9%
Live Client HiddenB Mace/Sword -> Sword/Sword -> tooltip dmg increased 2.9%
Live Client SAttack Mace/Sword -> Sword/Sword -> tooltip dmg increased 2.9%

PTS Client Whirwind Mace/Sword -> Sword/Sword -> tooltip dmg increased 0.84%
PTS Client HiddenB Mace/Sword -> Sword/Sword -> tooltip dmg increased 0.86%
PTS Client SAttack Mace/Sword -> Sword/Sword -> tooltip dmg increased 0.87%

It is fully possible that the current pts values (and method of calculation) is intentional, and the passive effect beeing lowered from Live Client to PTS Client thus also beeing intentional.
Or it could be that the passive only adjusting Your base weapon dmg is a coding mistake.

Seemingly, for a wep dmg stam build, the dual wield sword passive on the pts client, has had its potency reduced to 1/3 of it current live client value.

If that is intentional, then fine If it is not intentional, would be cool if the coders took a peek at the formulas used

Goresnort

Ezareth wrote: »

Can you post the direct numbers you found all your other passives etc affecting the calculation?

They changed a lot of back end formulas this patch. It is possible the buff was multiplicative prior and is now additive. Also remember that most buffs used to bypass the Cyrodiil Battle spirit buff or were additive with it and now most if not all of them are affected by it which could be why everything seems reduced by half of what you would expect.

Are you testing in Craglorn or something or Cyrodiil?

The numbers I provided are not in combat numbers, but refer to the char sheet and tooltip values for a character located outside Cyrodil.

No special buffs used. No Cyro battle spirit, no food, no toggles and no cast buffs.

Copied char With identical gear loadout on both live and pts.

Only the skill point passives from skill lines adjusting the values.

Soulac

(1335 + 1335 * 0.2) * 1.05 + 1335 * 0.6

If wielding two legendary V16 swords.
Twin B&B passive and Dw expert.

AssaultLemming

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

hm okay, I hope you sent a bugreport. Also, I dont know why they changed it? Quite strange.

Because overload sorcs running dw swords were getting the 5% damage bonus

But wrobell said that that is intended and they like it for versatility. So why change it?

They intended swords to give more "Power".

I'll have to retest but the last passive in the DW does not increase magika abilites like the 2H ability (Forceful)? where you do x% more damage equipping a greatsword. Making a sharpened master greatsword the better option for a max spell damage/magika set up.

Havent really checked the wording on PTS (since this hasnt been the thing ive been concerned about) but on live DW twin blades and blunt states "while using DW abilites" in which i had no damage increase and the two handed sword passive says "while wielding a 2H weapon do x% more dmge" in which this causes frags, curse, overload and such to increase in damage.

can't really be bothered/have the cash to respec 2/3 times again when the games core combat mechanics are being changed but if anyone wants to test it go ahead if you refute my above statement.

But 2 swords do more dmge because of two weapons "Power" being overall greater than the "power" of one staff. When you look at a gold sword and a gold staff they will have the same value of X, but with staves you can only wield one while with swords can wield 2x "X" power.

I am not home right now so can't check but I am pretty sure it states "while duel weilding" not using abilities but simply having 2 weapons. Regardless, I know for an absolute fact dw swords gives magicka users more damage. It is what many magicka users use to max dps. The key is making them 2 pc torugs pact on them giving you more spell damage. So between dw bonus and the 2 pc bonus you get better than 2h. This is currently how it is on live. Check out sypher videos to confirm this. I am not home or else I would post some myself. Also, like 3 eso lives ago wrobell confirmed this, siad it was intended, and that they liked it. However, I have not tested on pts to see 8f they have changed it. So no clue on that.

They changed that tooltip in 1.5 to read dual wield abilities, it is no longer supposed to effect magicka spells or class abilities

EgoRush

We'll just have to retest once the update goes live anyway. I know currently putting points into Twin Blade & Blunt will increase all class skills. This isn't reflected in spell damage or tooltips though, you have to go hit something to see the difference. I.e. remove Twin Blade & Blunt, use Puncturing Sweep, then invest points and repeat. You'll hit harder despite nothing in the character sheet changing. Same thing with 2H Heavy Weapons passive. Though it was a while ago that I tested both and I haven't done further testing on these passives in the PTS.

Maulkin

Soulac wrote: »

(1335 + 1335 * 0.2) * 1.05 + 1335 * 0.6

If wielding two legendary V16 swords.
Twin B&B passive and Dw expert.

The 0.2 multiplier is for the off hand weapon
The 1.05 multiplier for twin blade and blunt swords
What's the 0.6 multiplier?

Soulac

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

(1335 + 1335 * 0.2) * 1.05 + 1335 * 0.6

If wielding two legendary V16 swords.
Twin B&B passive and Dw expert.

The 0.2 multiplier is for the off hand weapon
The 1.05 multiplier for twin blade and blunt swords
What's the 0.6 multiplier?

Dual wield expert.

bowmanz607

AssaultLemming wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

hm okay, I hope you sent a bugreport. Also, I dont know why they changed it? Quite strange.

Because overload sorcs running dw swords were getting the 5% damage bonus

But wrobell said that that is intended and they like it for versatility. So why change it?

They intended swords to give more "Power".

I'll have to retest but the last passive in the DW does not increase magika abilites like the 2H ability (Forceful)? where you do x% more damage equipping a greatsword. Making a sharpened master greatsword the better option for a max spell damage/magika set up.

Havent really checked the wording on PTS (since this hasnt been the thing ive been concerned about) but on live DW twin blades and blunt states "while using DW abilites" in which i had no damage increase and the two handed sword passive says "while wielding a 2H weapon do x% more dmge" in which this causes frags, curse, overload and such to increase in damage.

can't really be bothered/have the cash to respec 2/3 times again when the games core combat mechanics are being changed but if anyone wants to test it go ahead if you refute my above statement.

But 2 swords do more dmge because of two weapons "Power" being overall greater than the "power" of one staff. When you look at a gold sword and a gold staff they will have the same value of X, but with staves you can only wield one while with swords can wield 2x "X" power.

I am not home right now so can't check but I am pretty sure it states "while duel weilding" not using abilities but simply having 2 weapons. Regardless, I know for an absolute fact dw swords gives magicka users more damage. It is what many magicka users use to max dps. The key is making them 2 pc torugs pact on them giving you more spell damage. So between dw bonus and the 2 pc bonus you get better than 2h. This is currently how it is on live. Check out sypher videos to confirm this. I am not home or else I would post some myself. Also, like 3 eso lives ago wrobell confirmed this, siad it was intended, and that they liked it. However, I have not tested on pts to see 8f they have changed it. So no clue on that.

They changed that tooltip in 1.5 to read dual wield abilities, it is no longer supposed to effect magicka spells or class abilities

I promise you it does. Again this was confirmed by the devs and actively tested by the community and currently a go to setup on live. DW increases damge for magika users. 100% guarantee it.

Docmandu

Asayre wrote: »

I tested this in the previous patch 2.1.2 but the 5% is being applied only to the spell power that comes from your weapon. Say you have two legendary swords/maces without the passive your spell damage is 1602 (1335=*1.2, 1335 being the stated weapon damage for the sword). With 2 points in the passive the spell damage remains the same for the maces but with the swords this is increased by 5% to 1682 (=1335*1.2*1.05). It does not increase your total spell damage. You were probably considering your total spell damage instead of just that coming from the weapons.

Wonder if the nirnhoned / mace pen bug fix had something to do with this. They worked on the global value before, after the fix they work on the local value.

kkampaseb17_ESO

Thread necromancy cause this is actually taking place as we speak.

Sword bonus gives only weapon damage increase that gives 0.9% DPS increase per weapon. The tooltip says that it increases damage done by weapons by 2.5%....It doesn't say it increases weapon damage by 2.5% like Flawless Dawnbreaker. However, THAT IS THE CASE!.

Dagger bonus gives 2.5% DPS increase on 150% critical damage profile

Mace bonus gives around 6% DPS increase breaking all other bonuses from other weapons.

I don't care about fixing maces at this point.

Make sword give the old 2.5% total damage increase instead of 2.5% weapon damage increase that equates to 0.9% damage increase.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Thread necromancy cause this is actually taking place as we speak.

Sword bonus gives only weapon damage increase that gives 0.9% DPS increase per weapon. The tooltip says that it increases damage done by weapons by 2.5%....It doesn't say it increases weapon damage by 2.5% like Flawless Dawnbreaker. However, THAT IS THE CASE!.

Dagger bonus gives 2.5% DPS increase on 150% critical damage profile

Mace bonus gives around 6% DPS increase breaking all other bonuses from other weapons.

I don't care about fixing maces at this point.

Make sword give the old 2.5% total damage increase instead of 2.5% weapon damage increase that equates to 0.9% damage increase.

I run dual swords and this needs to be fixed...

ChefZero

Atm on Live DW passiv affect the base weapon and spell damage from your equiped weapons. The 2H passiv affect your overall damage. Thats the reason why 2H is better than DW in many cases for some magicka-builds.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Thread necromancy cause this is actually taking place as we speak.

Sword bonus gives only weapon damage increase that gives 0.9% DPS increase per weapon. The tooltip says that it increases damage done by weapons by 2.5%....It doesn't say it increases weapon damage by 2.5% like Flawless Dawnbreaker. However, THAT IS THE CASE!.

Dagger bonus gives 2.5% DPS increase on 150% critical damage profile

Mace bonus gives around 6% DPS increase breaking all other bonuses from other weapons.

I don't care about fixing maces at this point.

Make sword give the old 2.5% total damage increase instead of 2.5% weapon damage increase that equates to 0.9% damage increase.

I run dual swords and this needs to be fixed...

Bump, it still needs to be fixed..