Some damage shields buff/nerf?

fyrnas

Hey, i hope i dont miss any discussion somewhere and sorry for my english..as first.

I think everybody know how OP damage shields are already on Live server and i think there is some discussions about nerf needed cuz special sorcs are so immortal with it. Now on PTS where come 50% dmg reduction in pvp (it is working for heals and dmg shields also) i come with some questions and points about this.
My shields on live server with my sorc -
34 644 mana and 36 points in bastion are 15 465 - out of pvp
13 721 - in pvp =18,3% less effective
now shields on PTS server where i make sorc with -
34 501 mana and 36 points in bastion are 18 481 - out of pvp
11534 - in pvp =37,6% less effective
all of us can see between live server and PTS are shields in PVP zone just 16% less effective for some reason and we get fact about 50% less dmg in pvp on PTS its like shields are buffed by 34% against live server WHERE are dmg shields already OP (if not OP...very strong for sure)
Tested on Hardened ward skill.

So pls make some reaction for this discussion pls. Have a nice day

Xsorus

Yeah, which is why sorcs are just as poweful if not more poweful on pts vs live, mean while dodge rollers and blockers get screwed

Yuke

well this ist nothing more than a bad joke.

dsalter

they just need to turn the magicka scale down slightly for the hardened ward, healing ward also needs a slight nerf in my opinion

Septimus_Magna

Why dont you test crystal frags damage against a wolf in Cyrodiil on live and pts?
With the same spell damage and max magicka ofc, only attribute points into magicka and the same weapon equiped for example.

If you compare the numbers you should see that shields have been nerfed more than damage has.

Also, bolt escape has been nerfed pretty hard, especially ball of lightning. Sorc should have a lot harder time surviving because their escape now costs a ton of magicka to use in rapid succession. Everyone with a gap closer can keep charging into blinking sorcs.

Xsorus

It doesn't matter if you can't survive the sorc because they've nerfed block, dodge, and nirnhoned while they keep better defense compared to pre patch

fyrnas

Wolfs have nothing to do with that cuz this dmg reduction is in real 50% less dmg taken in pvp..not dmg done...so idk how i can test it without next player who have character with same resists on live and PTS. :-/

Dracane

Bolt Escape received a heavy nerf and yes, shields are definately weaker than on the live server compared to damage.
Considering the fact, that Bolt Escape is crap now, I say leave us our damage shields at least.

fyrnas

Dracane wrote: »

Bolt Escape received a heavy nerf and yes, shields are definately weaker than on the live server compared to damage.
Considering the fact, that Bolt Escape is crap now, I say leave us our damage shields at least.

Thats maybe truth, but i rly dont care about ppl wich miss BE spam..and im talking about shields wich are stronger on PTS then live server and already on live server it need nerf.

kkampaseb17_ESO

If your numbers are correct....this is just a bad joke.

Derra

Hardened ward is now stronger on pts bc of:

Conjured Ward: This ability and its morphs will now properly increase in effectiveness as it ranks up.

With a 2% per level increase to the shield (atleast thats what skills do when leveling up afaik) hardened ward at lvl 4 is 14% stronger than before. Also the hardened ward % increase of the shield is working kind of wonky in combination with the cyrodiil decrease.

Erondil

Could you test with Healing Ward and Harness Magicka too please? Also anyone knows if the battle spirit debuff applies 2 times for the heal of Healing Ward (the shield nerf+heal nerf)?

fyrnas

Derra wrote: »

Hardened ward is now stronger on pts bc of:

Conjured Ward: This ability and its morphs will now properly increase in effectiveness as it ranks up.

With a 2% per level increase to the shield (atleast thats what skills do when leveling up afaik) hardened ward at lvl 4 is 14% stronger than before. Also the hardened ward % increase of the shield is working kind of wonky in combination with the cyrodiil decrease.

Good point, i miss that, thx. But if i use my numbers wich i make before: 15 465 and 18 481 - you see difference is something around 19,5% more not 14%(this can be affected by something else). But anyway if this will be 14% still shields are not affected by -50% in pvp correctly and still..if it will be affected by -50% correctly it need nerf already on live server so..i dont see any reason why it should be by percentage stronger on pts then on live is now (skill itself).

RinaldoGandolphi

Xsorus wrote: »

Yeah, which is why sorcs are just as poweful if not more poweful on pts vs live, mean while dodge rollers and blockers get screwed

thats simply not true. Sorc's can no longer blink anywhere near as much as we used to, we have had to change tactics a great deal.

Sorc's may have good "active defense" but we lack any class synergy...we don't have a good combo to string 2-3 class skills together to unload on someone like Nightblades for example do.

All Streak does is make your enemy immune to Rune Cage and Crystal Frags knock down in return for a 1.5 sec blockable stun and pitiful damage.

Sorc's will be the new Turret Class standing in Daedric Mines firing Overload and Crushing Shock into peoples faces behind Hardened Ward using Streak only as a way to reposition or stun a Wrecking Blow, etc.

My Sorc don't hit anywhere near as hard as he does on Live, Shields are needed or Light Armor will not be viable at all...i get like what 5-6k armor with 7 light, im naked against anyone with 1 point in piercing and laughable so against anyone with a Sharpened weapon...i also have pitiful Spell Resist and i miught as well be naked against any other caster.

Damage Shields are not free, they cost magic to cast and your not doing damage while casting them. You get more then 1 person hammering on those shields, they expire quickly and the Sorc will die quickly if he can't get away and the Bolt Nerf makes it harder to just run away from 7-8 people hammering on you.

Folks need to stop focusing on 1v1, this game wasn't designed with that in mind and every class can beat the other 1v1 if someone gears specifically for that person. 1v1 are great for trying out new ideas, testing builds, skills, etc, but its not a realistic expectation of what pvp in this game was all about, its open field warfare not arena type pvp. the IPC is urban warfare, not arena pvp...

Rook_Master

50% damage nerf and he is still getting 11.5k Hardened Ward!?

ZOSPlzNerfKthx

Derra

fyrnas wrote: »

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Derra wrote: »

Hardened ward is now stronger on pts bc of:

Conjured Ward: This ability and its morphs will now properly increase in effectiveness as it ranks up.

With a 2% per level increase to the shield (atleast thats what skills do when leveling up afaik) hardened ward at lvl 4 is 14% stronger than before. Also the hardened ward % increase of the shield is working kind of wonky in combination with the cyrodiil decrease.

Good point, i miss that, thx. But if i use my numbers wich i make before: 15 465 and 18 481 - you see difference is something around 19,5% more not 14%(this can be affected by something else). But anyway if this will be 14% still shields are not affected by -50% in pvp correctly and still..if it will be affected by -50% correctly it need nerf already on live server so..i dont see any reason why it should be by percentage stronger on pts then on live is now (skill itself).

The difference you see on your baseshield is most likely bc the 14% affect the base value of the shield which then gets multiplied by 33% (hardened ward) which gets multiplied again by bastion. Because of multiplicative values you see a greater increase on the shield.

While i don´t agree that it needs a nerf on the live server (it´s op in 1v1 there but it is balanced in grp play - the combination with healing ward or healing ward alone is whats completly out of control) - hardened ward is clearly too strong on the pts.
My gut-feeling is a decrease of the dmg reduction to 40% and a reduction of conjure ward by 15 to 20% would hit a pretty good spot for the shield.
You always have to take into account that this is not a game balanced for 1v1 and with the streak/BOL nerf hardened ward is the only active defense that´s left for the sorc class. It has to offer some protection against multiple attackers to make the sorc a vaible grp character.

Xsorus

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

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Xsorus wrote: »

Yeah, which is why sorcs are just as poweful if not more poweful on pts vs live, mean while dodge rollers and blockers get screwed

thats simply not true. Sorc's can no longer blink anywhere near as much as we used to, we have had to change tactics a great deal.

Sorc's may have good "active defense" but we lack any class synergy...we don't have a good combo to string 2-3 class skills together to unload on someone like Nightblades for example do.

All Streak does is make your enemy immune to Rune Cage and Crystal Frags knock down in return for a 1.5 sec blockable stun and pitiful damage.

Sorc's will be the new Turret Class standing in Daedric Mines firing Overload and Crushing Shock into peoples faces behind Hardened Ward using Streak only as a way to reposition or stun a Wrecking Blow, etc.

My Sorc don't hit anywhere near as hard as he does on Live, Shields are needed or Light Armor will not be viable at all...i get like what 5-6k armor with 7 light, im naked against anyone with 1 point in piercing and laughable so against anyone with a Sharpened weapon...i also have pitiful Spell Resist and i miught as well be naked against any other caster.

Damage Shields are not free, they cost magic to cast and your not doing damage while casting them. You get more then 1 person hammering on those shields, they expire quickly and the Sorc will die quickly if he can't get away and the Bolt Nerf makes it harder to just run away from 7-8 people hammering on you.

Folks need to stop focusing on 1v1, this game wasn't designed with that in mind and every class can beat the other 1v1 if someone gears specifically for that person. 1v1 are great for trying out new ideas, testing builds, skills, etc, but its not a realistic expectation of what pvp in this game was all about, its open field warfare not arena type pvp. the IPC is urban warfare, not arena pvp...

I'm sorry, did you just say you don't have a good combo to string 2 or 3 class skills together? What do you think Curse + Crystal Frags (Instant cast proc) + any other attack in the game is? In fact you have one of the best Burst combos in the game. Your turret mode is nothing new, since you can do that right now, and its just as powerful on PTS as live...

Saying you shields are needed or light armor won't be viable is also laughable, since you can ignore virtually all Heavy Armor physical resist right now...and Heavy Armor users don't generally have 11k shields to back themselves up with..

Also are you really crying about it being harder to run away with 7-8 people hammering on you when 2 classes in this game have virtually zero way to escape that situation at present.

Saying damage shields aren't free is also laughable, with the fact that Magicka Regen hasn't been nerfed like Blocking and Stamina Regen has you can pretty much Spam Damage Shields forever, and its not like they are castable or channeled spells either, they're instant cast so you saying you can't do damage at the same time is silly.

Now lets move onto the silliest statement, The fact that you think this game shouldn't be focused on 1v1 and the game shouldn't be balanced around that.

Every PvP game to be viable needs balanced 1v1, If one class pulling ahead of the rest it will have effect on every portion of the PvP game. This has been true in every single PvP game to date.

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

Every PvP game to be viable needs balanced 1v1, If one class pulling ahead of the rest it will have effect on every portion of the PvP game. This has been true in every single PvP game to date.

Oh this is sooo wrong. DAoC had functioning 1v1 for a few select classes but the very essence of the game was about functioning grps and class synergies...

You can´t balance for 1v1 without unbalancing grp play and vice versa.

Erondil

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Sorc's may have good "active defense" but we lack any class synergy...we don't have a good combo to string 2-3 class skills together to unload on someone like Nightblades for example do.

Curse>Mages fury>(Meteor if needed>)Streak/rune prison in 1.7>CF is a very strong sorc's synergy in my eyes. Sorc can time his attacks to have a huge instant burst and you can add some skills from other trees to make it even more efficient (magicka detonation, entropy for MotG, dawnbreaker,meteor). Nightblade got a very strong spammable skill thats for sure, but I fail to see such synergy between his offensive skills.


Back to the subject, what about healing ward and harness magicka?

fyrnas

to RinaldoGandolphi and Derra:
nobody is talking about duels as first and as second 19,5% or 14% (as i say before) isnt important...important are this 50% wich are not working on hardened ward.
How effective is this skill itself or useles..whatever you want isnt point of this topic..anyway..i rly dont agree with you two guys..for this shields are (on live and pts too) still mutch better defensive way then others. Im playing sorc same like all others classes except boring DKs and i can say: pvp as sorc is just ***** easy..after some time in pvp with my sorc i know all noobs can play sorc and feel like gods....and everything is just from shields...not from BE wich i think is in imperial city still same effective like before cuz there is small places and building everywhere...so 2 jumps is enough for everything.

Dracane

Erondil wrote: »

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RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Sorc's may have good "active defense" but we lack any class synergy...we don't have a good combo to string 2-3 class skills together to unload on someone like Nightblades for example do.

Curse>Mages fury>(Meteor if needed>)Streak/rune prison in 1.7>CF is a very strong sorc's synergy in my eyes. Sorc can time his attacks to have a huge instant burst and you can add some skills from other trees to make it even more efficient (magicka detonation, entropy for MotG, dawnbreaker,meteor). Nightblade got a very strong spammable skill thats for sure, but I fail to see such synergy between his offensive skills.


Back to the subject, what about healing ward and harness magicka?

And here we see, that you haven't even tested this combo.
First: Nobody dies because of this in 1.7
And 2nd: If you would have tested it, you would be aware, that rune caged enemies are not ccable.

That means, if I rune cage someone and use crystal shard, he will just be free and get cc immunity. So yea, the cast time might be gone. But I would rather have the old rune cage back, because I can apply a REAL CC to rune caged enemies in 1.6. I don't consider rune cage and petrify real ccs, as they can break.
IF rune cage would be ccable, I agree, that this combo would be quite interesting.

RinaldoGandolphi

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm sorry, did you just say you don't have a good combo to string 2 or 3 class skills together? What do you think Curse + Crystal Frags (Instant cast proc) + any other attack in the game is? In fact you have one of the best Burst combos in the game. Your turret mode is nothing new, since you can do that right now, and its just as powerful on PTS as live...

I wouldn't even call Curse + Frags a combo...its delayed damage that completely different and weaker then what is on live now....Inevitable Detonation + Curse + Frags + Mage's Wrath was a decent 4 burst but it required standing behind a Ball of Lighting to do as Crushing Shock users being so prevalent would make it impossible to cast otherwise. You could get all 4 of these to go off at once, but without a Ball to cast behind you will never get it off on PTS against anyone who uses Crushing Shock(most other casters) calling Frags + Curse a combo is laughable really, because its not.


A real Sorc combo was:Curse + Streak +Frags + Mage's Wrath

That combo used to be good because Streak was a Disorient not a Stun which meant your Streak didn't make your enemy immune to Frags knockdown or Rune Cage, so you could Curse him, Streak him, hit him with a Frag and then finish him off
Mage's Wrath while he was on his back. Now your Frag will not knock him down and most players will simply dodge your Mage's Wrath, so the Sorc's best combo is gone...Yet Sorc's continue to find new ways to get things done and folks complain about it.

Xsorus wrote: »

Saying you shields are needed or light armor won't be viable is also laughable, since you can ignore virtually all Heavy Armor physical resist right now...and Heavy Armor users don't generally have 11k shields to back themselves up with..

On the PTS the Apprenctice Stone no longer gives Spell Penetration so Magic builds in general took a nerf and this is a diorect loss of DPS. the Apprentice Stone would have to give 450 Spell Damage(roughly) to be the equivalent of the current live Apprentice Stone, and it does not, so Sorc's or any other Magic Class are not ignoring as much of your Spell resist as they are on live.

Xsorus wrote: »

Saying damage shields aren't free is also laughable, with the fact that Magicka Regen hasn't been nerfed like Blocking and Stamina Regen has you can pretty much Spam Damage Shields forever, and its not like they are castable or channeled spells either, they're instant cast so you saying you can't do damage at the same time is silly.

Damage Shields are not free, any class, not just Sorcs are converting their Magic Resources into extending their available max health. That's in essence what Damage Shields in this game are, they are an extension of max health that cost magic to use. You can still be knocked down, stunned, disoreinted, feared, and rooted while a shield is up. They also have no armor value so the damage done to them is more then a crit against someone's health pool in terms of damage as your hitting something with zero physical or spell resist. You always hit the sheild for tooltip damage.

Xsorus wrote: »

Now lets move onto the silliest statement, The fact that you think this game shouldn't be focused on 1v1 and the game shouldn't be balanced around that.

Every PvP game to be viable needs balanced 1v1, If one class pulling ahead of the rest it will have effect on every portion of the PvP game. This has been true in every single PvP game to date.

Its not silly, its fact. This entire game is designed around group PVP. 99% of all fights are not 1v1. This is not an arena. This game should definitively NOT be balanced around 1v1. Part of what makes this game as fun as it is and more then 1 build being viable per class is because 1v1 is not the focus and the game is not centered around arena style fighting.

Balancing this game around 1v1 will do nothing except make each class only have 1 set of gear and 1 build that will be viable to use, and the greater majority of this community doesn't want that. This would pigeonhole class into gear and roles many don't want, the fact this game is balanced around group and open world warfare kind of fighting makes multiple builds and multiple roles viable, much more then what would be viable if the game was balanced against 1v1. It is this flexibility that allows multiple roles or choices for each class.

Best example i can give you is Pixystick and Ezareth. Both Sorcs, two completly different styles of play.

PixySticks was a high damage, high magic, low regen, hit like a truck build.

Ezareth was a high regen, average stats, high mobility, rope a dope wear you down and Overload you down kiting Sorc.

Two completely different playstyles, the two couldn't be any farther apart in their build objectives, but both worked because the game isn;'t balanced against 1v1, make this game balanced 1v1 like you want, and one of those builds isn't viable anymore, and i won't tell you which one it is.

Derra

fyrnas wrote: »

to RinaldoGandolphi and Derra:
nobody is talking about duels as first and as second 19,5% or 14% (as i say before) isnt important...important are this 50% wich are not working on hardened ward.
How effective is this skill itself or useles..whatever you want isnt point of this topic..anyway..i rly dont agree with you two guys..for this shields are (on live and pts too) still mutch better defensive way then others. Im playing sorc same like all others classes except boring DKs and i can say: pvp as sorc is just ***** easy..after some time in pvp with my sorc i know all noobs can play sorc and feel like gods....and everything is just from shields...not from BE wich i think is in imperial city still same effective like before cuz there is small places and building everywhere...so 2 jumps is enough for everything.

Did you read what i wrote? I totally agree that shields are too strong on pts mate...

While on live - when we´re playing in our 4man grp we can kill any sorc that we fight if they don´t focus on staying at maxrange all of the time. Shields don´t help them when entering close combat. What usually lasts the longest are blocking DKs not sorcerers.
Edit to make it clearer: If you were to balance shields to be counterable in 1v1 encounters by average players - sorcs would be free kills in grp combat. Currently the killing order is Templars> badroller> badshieldstacker> goodshieldstacker> goodroller> DKtank in small grp combat with target coordination.

Also the 50% are not working bc they are a multiplicative value that gets modified by the 33% increase multiplication from hardened ward.

RinaldoGandolphi

I said on another thread and i'll say it here:

Take away the ability to have more then 1 shield up at any given time, and buff the current shields(Ward, Sun Shield, DK Shield, Harness, Bone Shield) by 15% and your done...you cast 1 shield and if you cast another shield your current one is canceled and replaced with the other.

This does away with stacking Healing Ward under another shield and gets rid of the large burst heal that is at the root of these posts without gutting shields completely with another misguided nerf.

fyrnas

Derra wrote: »

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fyrnas wrote: »

to RinaldoGandolphi and Derra:
nobody is talking about duels as first and as second 19,5% or 14% (as i say before) isnt important...important are this 50% wich are not working on hardened ward.
How effective is this skill itself or useles..whatever you want isnt point of this topic..anyway..i rly dont agree with you two guys..for this shields are (on live and pts too) still mutch better defensive way then others. Im playing sorc same like all others classes except boring DKs and i can say: pvp as sorc is just ***** easy..after some time in pvp with my sorc i know all noobs can play sorc and feel like gods....and everything is just from shields...not from BE wich i think is in imperial city still same effective like before cuz there is small places and building everywhere...so 2 jumps is enough for everything.

Did you read what i wrote? I totally agree that shields are too strong on pts mate...

While on live - when we´re playing in our 4man grp we can kill any sorc that we fight if they don´t focus on staying at maxrange all of the time. Shields don´t help them when entering close combat. What usually lasts the longest are blocking DKs not sorcerers.

Also the 50% are not working bc they are a multiplicative value that gets modified by the 33% increase multiplication from hardened ward.

I read that and i unerestand..im just saying isnt important if its 14 or 19..blah blah..etc...what i ment i dont agree was like you say before "shields dont need nerf cuz its only way how to defend him self" or something like that. and about DKs...its again offtopic but what i can saw in pvp now in pts was same like you blocking Dks and what i get from this?...fights are longer cuz this dmg reduction but Ultimate gain is still same fast..so DKs have more time to make some ultimate and get sources back from it..ofc isnt only reason but this can be one of it.

Derra

fyrnas wrote: »

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Derra wrote: »

fyrnas wrote: »

to RinaldoGandolphi and Derra:
nobody is talking about duels as first and as second 19,5% or 14% (as i say before) isnt important...important are this 50% wich are not working on hardened ward.
How effective is this skill itself or useles..whatever you want isnt point of this topic..anyway..i rly dont agree with you two guys..for this shields are (on live and pts too) still mutch better defensive way then others. Im playing sorc same like all others classes except boring DKs and i can say: pvp as sorc is just ***** easy..after some time in pvp with my sorc i know all noobs can play sorc and feel like gods....and everything is just from shields...not from BE wich i think is in imperial city still same effective like before cuz there is small places and building everywhere...so 2 jumps is enough for everything.

Did you read what i wrote? I totally agree that shields are too strong on pts mate...

While on live - when we´re playing in our 4man grp we can kill any sorc that we fight if they don´t focus on staying at maxrange all of the time. Shields don´t help them when entering close combat. What usually lasts the longest are blocking DKs not sorcerers.

Also the 50% are not working bc they are a multiplicative value that gets modified by the 33% increase multiplication from hardened ward.

I read that and i unerestand..im just saying isnt important if its 14 or 19..blah blah..etc...what i ment i dont agree was like you say before "shields dont need nerf cuz its only way how to defend him self" or something like that. and about DKs...its again offtopic but what i can saw in pvp now in pts was same like you blocking Dks and what i get from this?...fights are longer cuz this dmg reduction but Ultimate gain is still same fast..so DKs have more time to make some ultimate and get sources back from it..ofc isnt only reason but this can be one of it.

Oh yeah. I don´t think they need nerfing on live.

I do think shields are entirely too strong on the pts - even though they are the only active defense left (which is true atleast for magica sorcerers).

Erondil

Dracane wrote: »

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Erondil wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Sorc's may have good "active defense" but we lack any class synergy...we don't have a good combo to string 2-3 class skills together to unload on someone like Nightblades for example do.

Curse>Mages fury>(Meteor if needed>)Streak/rune prison in 1.7>CF is a very strong sorc's synergy in my eyes. Sorc can time his attacks to have a huge instant burst and you can add some skills from other trees to make it even more efficient (magicka detonation, entropy for MotG, dawnbreaker,meteor). Nightblade got a very strong spammable skill thats for sure, but I fail to see such synergy between his offensive skills.


Back to the subject, what about healing ward and harness magicka?

And here we see, that you haven't even tested this combo.
First: Nobody dies because of this in 1.7
And 2nd: If you would have tested it, you would be aware, that rune caged enemies are not ccable.

That means, if I rune cage someone and use crystal shard, he will just be free and get cc immunity. So yea, the cast time might be gone. But I would rather have the old rune cage back, because I can apply a REAL CC to rune caged enemies in 1.6. I don't consider rune cage and petrify real ccs, as they can break.
IF rune cage would be ccable, I agree, that this combo would be quite interesting.

I've never pretended I tested it in 1.7, I'm quite far away from my computer for few weeks anyway so how could I test. But this combo in 1.6 works really well (I use it on my sorc) while @RinaldoGandolphi was saying that the only sorc synergy was syreak+cf, destroyed in 1.6. (This statement is totally wrong imo, sorc has, in 1.6, the best synergy between his offensive skills but lack of a spammable abilitie while NB has a very good spammable abilitie but not as good burst synergy as sorc).
Also sure the sorc combo doesnt burst someone from 100% to 0% hp instant in 1.7, but other classes combo neither except maybe snipe>ambush>deathstroke from stealth with a full glasscanon build.

Xsorus

Derra wrote: »

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Xsorus wrote: »

Every PvP game to be viable needs balanced 1v1, If one class pulling ahead of the rest it will have effect on every portion of the PvP game. This has been true in every single PvP game to date.

Oh this is sooo wrong. DAoC had functioning 1v1 for a few select classes but the very essence of the game was about functioning grps and class synergies...

You can´t balance for 1v1 without unbalancing grp play and vice versa.

What are you talking about, virtually every class in Daoc could solo quite well except the support classes, it was relatively balanced as well. There was basically an entire subset of the game built around solo play. Which I was very much apart of when I wasnt 8v8ing

Might i add that there were massive nerfs to a number of classes in DAOC based entirely on how well they were preforming in 1v1. The whole reason for example that Tanks in that game ended up with for example IP was so they could fight against stealthers when they came across them in a 1v1. Because the idea that just a few classes would beat every other class in PvP was insane especially in regards to solo. If that was the case very few people would play any other class in the game because you can't always be in a group.

Xsorus

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

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Xsorus wrote: »

I'm sorry, did you just say you don't have a good combo to string 2 or 3 class skills together? What do you think Curse + Crystal Frags (Instant cast proc) + any other attack in the game is? In fact you have one of the best Burst combos in the game. Your turret mode is nothing new, since you can do that right now, and its just as powerful on PTS as live...

I wouldn't even call Curse + Frags a combo...its delayed damage that completely different and weaker then what is on live now....Inevitable Detonation + Curse + Frags + Mage's Wrath was a decent 4 burst but it required standing behind a Ball of Lighting to do as Crushing Shock users being so prevalent would make it impossible to cast otherwise. You could get all 4 of these to go off at once, but without a Ball to cast behind you will never get it off on PTS against anyone who uses Crushing Shock(most other casters) calling Frags + Curse a combo is laughable really, because its not.


A real Sorc combo was:Curse + Streak +Frags + Mage's Wrath

That combo used to be good because Streak was a Disorient not a Stun which meant your Streak didn't make your enemy immune to Frags knockdown or Rune Cage, so you could Curse him, Streak him, hit him with a Frag and then finish him off
Mage's Wrath while he was on his back. Now your Frag will not knock him down and most players will simply dodge your Mage's Wrath, so the Sorc's best combo is gone...Yet Sorc's continue to find new ways to get things done and folks complain about it.

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Xsorus wrote: »

Saying you shields are needed or light armor won't be viable is also laughable, since you can ignore virtually all Heavy Armor physical resist right now...and Heavy Armor users don't generally have 11k shields to back themselves up with..

On the PTS the Apprenctice Stone no longer gives Spell Penetration so Magic builds in general took a nerf and this is a diorect loss of DPS. the Apprentice Stone would have to give 450 Spell Damage(roughly) to be the equivalent of the current live Apprentice Stone, and it does not, so Sorc's or any other Magic Class are not ignoring as much of your Spell resist as they are on live.

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Xsorus wrote: »

Saying damage shields aren't free is also laughable, with the fact that Magicka Regen hasn't been nerfed like Blocking and Stamina Regen has you can pretty much Spam Damage Shields forever, and its not like they are castable or channeled spells either, they're instant cast so you saying you can't do damage at the same time is silly.

Damage Shields are not free, any class, not just Sorcs are converting their Magic Resources into extending their available max health. That's in essence what Damage Shields in this game are, they are an extension of max health that cost magic to use. You can still be knocked down, stunned, disoreinted, feared, and rooted while a shield is up. They also have no armor value so the damage done to them is more then a crit against someone's health pool in terms of damage as your hitting something with zero physical or spell resist. You always hit the sheild for tooltip damage.

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Xsorus wrote: »

Now lets move onto the silliest statement, The fact that you think this game shouldn't be focused on 1v1 and the game shouldn't be balanced around that.

Every PvP game to be viable needs balanced 1v1, If one class pulling ahead of the rest it will have effect on every portion of the PvP game. This has been true in every single PvP game to date.

Its not silly, its fact. This entire game is designed around group PVP. 99% of all fights are not 1v1. This is not an arena. This game should definitively NOT be balanced around 1v1. Part of what makes this game as fun as it is and more then 1 build being viable per class is because 1v1 is not the focus and the game is not centered around arena style fighting.

Balancing this game around 1v1 will do nothing except make each class only have 1 set of gear and 1 build that will be viable to use, and the greater majority of this community doesn't want that. This would pigeonhole class into gear and roles many don't want, the fact this game is balanced around group and open world warfare kind of fighting makes multiple builds and multiple roles viable, much more then what would be viable if the game was balanced against 1v1. It is this flexibility that allows multiple roles or choices for each class.

Best example i can give you is Pixystick and Ezareth. Both Sorcs, two completly different styles of play.

PixySticks was a high damage, high magic, low regen, hit like a truck build.

Ezareth was a high regen, average stats, high mobility, rope a dope wear you down and Overload you down kiting Sorc.

Two completely different playstyles, the two couldn't be any farther apart in their build objectives, but both worked because the game isn;'t balanced against 1v1, make this game balanced 1v1 like you want, and one of those builds isn't viable anymore, and i won't tell you which one it is.

Curse, Streak, Frags, Mages is still used by a vast majority of Sorcs because it breaks block allowing that damage to hit. Nothing has changed with that combo as well. In fact you can probably look at virtually any video right now with 1.6 and see that combo being used.

No, you did not take a direct nerf because of Apprentice Stone, you got a massive buff because you got multiple new ways to get a crap ton of spell power, a long with the whole reason ya needed Apprentice STone in the first place being gutted (Nirnhoned)

With the current Magicka Recovery Rates in this game, Damage Shields are virtually free, I base this on the fact that I play a Magicka user, and out of the countless videos I've seen i've yet to see a single person run out of Magicka...esp a Sorc.

Also did you just say the damage done to them is more then a Crit? I take it you don't understand how math works right? Cause I can tell you right now that i'll hit you for about 7000 right now with Surprise Attack (or 9k with wrecking blow) non crit every time with a shield up, but If I crit you without a shield (since you can't crit shields) both of those will be for over 10k. The very fact that you can't crit a shield is a form of Mitigation that is frankly then a vast majority of Mitigation in this game because you can't avoid it with Penetration stat like the others.

No the entire game isn't designed around Group PvP, its a silly statement to think it is. AvA doesn't = Group vs Group combat and when classes are stronger in 1v1 they're generally nerfed. You also won't pigeonhole classes into 1 set of armor ect ect by balancing around 1v1 either..This is a cop out when your class is currently top dog and you want to remain top dog.

Also lets really look at your comparison of play styles..you compare two sorcs...which happen to both rely on 1 thing to be virtually better then every other class right now...Shields...Their playstyle doesn't matter...They're carried by Shield Stacking and the change to the meta from 1.5 to 1.6..in 1.7 they'll still be carried by Shield Stacking.

k2blader

Xsorus wrote: »

Also lets really look at your comparison of play styles..you compare two sorcs...which happen to both rely on 1 thing to be virtually better then every other class right now...Shields...Their playstyle doesn't matter...They're carried by Shield Stacking and the change to the meta from 1.5 to 1.6..in 1.7 they'll still be carried by Shield Stacking.

Can you recommend how sorcs should mitigate damage other than by using shields?

Or do you believe shields should be nerfed to a certain "sweet spot" which in your mind will still allow sorcs to have perfectly fine mitigation?

Or something else?

I know you hate shields-- that has always been very clear-- but what is your suggestion to replace their function?

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

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Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Every PvP game to be viable needs balanced 1v1, If one class pulling ahead of the rest it will have effect on every portion of the PvP game. This has been true in every single PvP game to date.

Oh this is sooo wrong. DAoC had functioning 1v1 for a few select classes but the very essence of the game was about functioning grps and class synergies...

You can´t balance for 1v1 without unbalancing grp play and vice versa.

What are you talking about, virtually every class in Daoc could solo quite well except the support classes, it was relatively balanced as well. There was basically an entire subset of the game built around solo play. Which I was very much apart of when I wasnt 8v8ing

Might i add that there were massive nerfs to a number of classes in DAOC based entirely on how well they were preforming in 1v1. The whole reason for example that Tanks in that game ended up with for example IP was so they could fight against stealthers when they came across them in a 1v1. Because the idea that just a few classes would beat every other class in PvP was insane especially in regards to solo. If that was the case very few people would play any other class in the game because you can't always be in a group.

Oh yeah. So most supporters were not able to solo. Most casters were not able to solo. What´s left are a few hybrids the fulltanks and stealthers. Half of the classes had no chance in hell to ever compete in solo gameplay but daoc was an amazing solo game...

The only time were you could soloplay every class in the game was about the first 6 to 9 months before the use of buffbots became the norm.