If PvP buffs are removed should the leaderboards be reset for trials?

EgoRush

There's talk of ZOS finally removing PvP buffs from PvE to effectively level the playing field and remove the concept of "buff campaigns". This poll asks whether people feel the leaderboards should be reset in such an eventuality.

See forum for more details:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/180480/pvp-update-june-2015

Fecius

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

Well, I guess it would be fair. (We've never had full buff for Pact in our Raid time and all the record were done with those buffs, I'm pretty sure. At the same time, leaderboard never was a main goal for us) That's why i press "Yes".

But from the other side? Does it matter? It's an old PvE content. Every day SO, AA, HRC value falls down. Now Trials are like: who can zerg em faster or who can ignore more mecanics with help of dps? It's not interesting any more. Content was desined for 35 CP. Now even I have 330+ and I know people with much more more CP. And those who just started and are really interested in this 3 Trials will never get in leaderbord in nearest future. So what's the point to reset it?

F7sus4

No, don't reset the leaderboards.

Basing on the logic of yours, we should have leaderboards reset with 2.0.11 as well, because of food-buffs improvement for total of +1,5k in basic stat(s), which means more magicka/stamina = more damage = better time = better result.



Please keep in mind that there were numerous exploits removed from Trials post-1.6 (Mantikora trap, Ra-kotu spawn retrigger etc.) which could lead to leaderboards reset argument, but they didn't. They also didn't prevent people from getting better results with or without those bugs.

In the end, PvP bonus removal will affect more the Trials meta-game than fair-play. In practice, it will cause different Ultimate selection and rotation during the raids to maintain similar buffs.

Also, keep in mind, that average CP amount per is group is still growing and there is no such thing as stable Trials-meta anymore. As of 17th June, we estimate 320-400 CP per player to be optimal, which will obviously change over months, so will the CP focus and distribution (of which Arcane Well passive gain is one of bigger milestones, for example). We could argue then that the group didn't have the same chances with/without certain CP passive "because it could, but it didn't, so it's not fair" and so on... This is simply pointless.

What I agree with, however, is that the food buff improvement might have been implemented simultaneously with PvP bonuses removal - just to avoid such discussions.

EgoRush

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

Good point about these trials being old. But, unfortunately, they are all we have to get an idea of PvE talent so I'd prefer an even playing field on what we have rather than waiting for new content Also, the more CP people get the easier it will be to surpass the top scores without buffs, so in time the leaderboards would be reshaped irrespective of a reset.

In the future when new trials are introduced guilds will still be doing AA/HRC/SO/vDSA to maintain top scores I'm sure. So an even playing field with no steroid-loaded teams would be rather pleasant.

EgoRush

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

F7sus4 wrote: »

Basing on the logic of yours, we should have leaderboards reset with 2.0.11 as well, because of food-buffs improvement for total of +1,5k in basic stat(s), which means more magicka/stamina = more damage = better time = better result.



Please keep in mind that there were numerous exploits removed from Trials post-1.6 (Mantikora trap, Ra-kotu spawn retrigger etc.) which could lead to leaderboards reset argument, but they didn't. They also didn't prevent people from getting better results with or without those bugs.

In the end, PvP bonus removal will affect more the Trials meta-game than fair-play. In practice, it will cause different Ultimate selection and rotation during the raids to maintain similar buffs.

Also, keep in mind, that average CP amount per is group is still growing and there is no such thing as stable Trials-meta anymore. As of 17th June, we estimate 320-400 CP per player to be optimal, which will obviously change over months, so will the CP focus and distribution (of which Arcane Well passive gain is one of bigger milestones, for example). We could argue then that the group didn't have the same chances with/without certain CP passive "because it could, but it didn't, so it's not fair" and so on... This is simply pointless.

What I agree with, however, is that the food buff improvement might have been implemented simultaneously with PvP bonuses removal - just to avoid such discussions.

Very good points. I disagree about the exploits being cause for leaderboard reset - scores have already improved since the fixes so none of the top scores are due to known exploits. As for the food buff, that will affect everyone and is stable, so the same teams can simply go in and redo their top score. PvP buffs are unstable, some of us do trials consistently without buffs, yet with buffs each DD in our team would be hitting 2-3K more DPS - that is a MUCH larger difference than 1.5K extra stat boost...and is something that comes and goes based on how your PvP faction is doing - ridiculous.

So I disagree that the food buff and exploits warrant as much reason to reset as removing PvP buffs. The latter buffs outweigh the former considerably.

With regards to CP, it's true that these will have an effect eventually, but let's take arena as an example: top team I hear has >360 CP each and have unlocked next tier of passives. Our team is marginally behind on a run where we lost buffs towards the end when 3 people on the team had ~250-270 CP without the next tier of passives. A difference of 1000 CP will make a large difference, but a hundred or so really isn't game-breaking. I'm happily sitting on 255 CP and can get >12K in arena.

F7sus4

No, don't reset the leaderboards.

I understand you're saying this from top leaderboards player perspective thus based on a proper insight into pro-team Trials raid mechanics?

EgoRush wrote: »

Very good points. I disagree about the exploits being cause for leaderboard reset - scores have already improved since the fixes so none of the top scores are due to known exploits.

This argument is invalid. The same will happen with CP-per-group increase which will eventually cover the PvP random bonuses gain/loss. Additionally, the lack of PvP bonuses will affect Trials-meta (or skill selection, if you'd prefer) more rather than the average point results (for example - you may like to focus maintaining Aggresive Horn more during longer fights).

EgoRush wrote: »

PvP buffs are unstable, some of us do trials consistently without buffs, yet with buffs each DD in our team would be hitting 2-3K more DPS - that is a MUCH larger difference than 1.5K extra stat boost

This is the exact possible difference with the extra stats, actually. Knowing that, food-buffs should actually make you want reset the leaderboards as much as PvP bonuses do.

EgoRush wrote: »

With regards to CP (...) A difference of 1000 CP will make a large difference, but a hundred or so really isn't game-breaking.

Unfortunately, quite the opposite. The most important CPs are only first hundreds - here's why:
"With either 360 CP or 3600 CP you still would have no more than +25% to your DPS abilities, healing done etc. Collecting additional bonuses that obviously are not related to your role/build, will not benefit you in OP way."

EgoRush

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

F7sus4 wrote: »

I understand you're saying this from top leaderboards player perspective thus based on a proper insight into pro-team Trials raid mechanics?

EgoRush wrote: »

Very good points. I disagree about the exploits being cause for leaderboard reset - scores have already improved since the fixes so none of the top scores are due to known exploits.

This argument is invalid. The same will happen with CP-per-group increase which will eventually cover the PvP random bonuses gain/loss. Additionally, the lack of PvP bonuses will affect Trials-meta (or skill selection, if you'd prefer) more rather than the stability of possible point results (for example - you may like to focus maintaining Aggresive Horn more during longer fights).

EgoRush wrote: »

PvP buffs are unstable, some of us do trials consistently without buffs, yet with buffs each DD in our team would be hitting 2-3K more DPS - that is a MUCH larger difference than 1.5K extra stat boost

This is the exact possible difference with the extra stats, actually. Knowing that, food-buffs should actually make you want reset the leaderboards as much as PvP bonuses do.

EgoRush wrote: »

With regards to CP (...) A difference of 1000 CP will make a large difference, but a hundred or so really isn't game-breaking.

Unfortunately, quite the opposite. The most important CPs are only first hundreds and let me copy/paste myself to explain why:
"With either 360 CP or 3600 CP you still would have no more than +25% to your DPS abilities, healing done etc. Collecting additional bonuses that obviously are not related to your role/build, will not benefit you in OP way."

You mentioned that by now we can estimate 320-400 CP average, however I myself am on 255, one of our DDs is on less than me, and the tank is 270 yet we can get a score in arena that's currently world #2 and >12K only marginally behind a team that are all >360 CP. This alone demonstrates that CP aren't making or breaking a team in these early days. Differences of 300+ CP between our teams certainly would as other passives are maxed out (a magicka DK can't rely on Elemental Expert alone...maxing Staff Expert will shoot their DPS up too). The more CP we get the less of a difference it will be as some of the passives will be useless to our builds, so you're right that by 3600 there will be no difference.

As for skill changes, I can't speak for other guilds but we run with the same skills irrespective of PvP bonuses. However, the tactics change as we can't necessarily nuke an enemy in the same way and must adhere to alternative mechanics. Hence, with unstable PvP buffs we can't train alternative tactics nearly as much as a faction that has stable buffs.

I don't understand your meaning with the food stats changing - everyone will have access to them and everyone will be buffed the same, so it's perfectly fair and still an even playing field. PvP buffs being unstable means some factions have them consistently and can train tactics accordingly. Other factions have them intermittently at best, so can't risk min/maxing stats due to the chance Emp will be lost and our health plummets. The instability of PvP buffs is completely different to food stats being boosted for all, I hope you see that.

EDIT: as for not getting 25% more DPS from 360 CP to 3600 CP, even a 5% increase is a lot when you factor in 12 people having that boost.

NotSo

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

Reset the leaderboards but also allow a version filter so view times from older versions of the game

EgoRush

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

NotSo wrote: »

Reset the leaderboards but also allow a version filter so view times from older versions of the game

Interesting idea. It would be fun to have even seen pre1.6 scores too by a similar filter, just for nostalgia's sake. Often there are forums detailing trial progression though, so people could keep track of scores they had before any major changes.

Fecius

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

EgoRush wrote: »

NotSo wrote: »

Reset the leaderboards but also allow a version filter so view times from older versions of the game

Interesting idea. It would be fun to have even seen pre1.6 scores too by a similar filter, just for nostalgia's sake. Often there are forums detailing trial progression though, so people could keep track of scores they had before any major changes.

They won't do this. It will show that all sistem is now timebased + mobs killing and HM bonus score without death tax. Wanna high score - do it HM and as fast as you can. It's still better then it was, but you can always hear from them smth like this " we don't want to show our score formula as it is".

EgoRush

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

Fecius wrote: »

They won't do this. It will show that all sistem is now timebased + mobs killing and HM bonus score without death tax. Wanna high score - do it HM and as fast as you can. It's still better then it was, but you can always hear from them smth like this " we don't want to show our score formula as it is".

Yeah I don't think they'll do it, but it would be fun to see old scores. As for how the scores are calculated from what I can tell deaths count for nothing, there is zero death penalty other than losing someone's DPS causing the fight to slow down marginally. Time is the biggest factor and some mobs are worth skipping if the time it takes to kill them is too high. I miss having a death penalty. The best scores in trials should be no death runs IMO.

Alcast

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

F7sus4 wrote: »

Unfortunately, quite the opposite. The most important CPs are only first hundreds - here's why:
"With either 360 CP or 3600 CP you still would have no more than +25% to your DPS abilities, healing done etc. Collecting additional bonuses that obviously are not related to your role/build, will not benefit you in OP way."

lol dude you are so wrong.

25% damage increase PLUS a 25% critical damage increase PLUS a 25% armor/spell penentration increase.


that is so freaking way more than 25%, and you need around 800+ CP to reach that.

Yonkit

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

Of course you should reset the leaderboards. PVP buffs have been an unfair advantage to all those fortunate enough to have friendly buff servers for weeks and months at a time. Now that we're close to being done with a convoluted system that rewarded high end pve'rs with bonuses due to faction imbalance, night capping, etc. we should embrace a clean start, one that leaves us with a more balanced reflection of player performance.

vortexman11

Why's this in the Alliance War section?

Yonkit

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

vortexman11 wrote: »

Why's this in the Alliance War section?

BECAUSE WE ARE AT WAR.

RedTalon

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

Yes though won't make a huge difference

Garion

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

Regardless of anything else, the historic exploits, avoiding certain mechanics etc should have warranted a reset. Now everything has changed so drastically with 1.6 I see no good reason why they shouldn't be reset along with this change. It might also refresh the competitiveness we see at the launch of new trials. It's a good thing all round in my opinion.

ksimpscnub18_ESO

wrong thread plx?

AlexiasDaex

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

I posted my opinion on the PvP change thread here

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/180480/pvp-update-june-2015/p17

Absolutely should

Hypertionb14_ESO

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

why not reset them. apart from the weekly that already resets weekly the only benefit to the all time is e-peen grooming.

being on the all time does literally nothing for you ultimately.

rokrdt05

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

EgoRush wrote: »

There's talk of ZOS finally removing PvP buffs from PvE to effectively level the playing field and remove the concept of "buff campaigns". This poll asks whether people feel the leaderboards should be reset in such an eventuality.

See forum for more details:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/180480/pvp-update-june-2015

In all reality... any BUFFS to the game should not have an affect on leaderboards being reset because every person (depending on the buff itself) will have access to it. However, any NERF to the game that allowed competitive play, in this case, PvP buffs should have the leaderboard reset.

The notion that because of CP you will get those scores anyway is obvious. However with the system as it is now... those people with higher CP + PvP buffs have the most advantage. Removing the PvP buffs doesn't allow for any players to use the extra advantage of PvP buffs ON TOP OF CP.

(edited for clarification)

Sacadon

This is not a PvP topic. Why must you bring such crazy nonsense to the alliance section

EgoRush

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

vortexman11 wrote: »

Why's this in the Alliance War section?

Sacadon wrote: »

This is not a PvP topic. Why must you bring such crazy nonsense to the alliance section

Apologies for posting this in the PvP section, it was because I saw it as an extension to the PvP Update post so figured it would be tidy to have them with each other rather than having people read the Update post then trawl through the site for the leaderboard reset :P

By all means if a thread doesn't seem relevant to you it can be ignored...

Daveheart

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

If nothing else, a leaderboard reset would give some people incentive to get back into some trials. Maybe those who don't want a reset were carried before or have alienated themselves from those PvE guilds?

Latter

If we get the sanctum record before removal of pvp buffs - No, its a horrible idea, they shouldnt do it.
If we do not get the sanctum record before removal of pvp buffs - Yes, amazing idea.

-Babyface Bananas

JacksonCarter13

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

Yonkit wrote: »

Of course you should reset the leaderboards. PVP buffs have been an unfair advantage to all those fortunate enough to have friendly buff servers for weeks and months at a time. Now that we're close to being done with a convoluted system that rewarded high end pve'rs with bonuses due to faction imbalance, night capping, etc. we should embrace a clean start, one that leaves us with a more balanced reflection of player performance.

This 100% it just makes sense

AhPook_Is_Here

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

I think they should reset it. Having said that, does every faction still have at least one guild that does trials for competitive scores? Maybe there isn't even a need for a board anymore?

rokrdt05

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think they should reset it. Having said that, does every faction still have at least one guild that does trials for competitive scores? Maybe there isn't even a need for a board anymore?

Of course there are. Simply looking at the Leaderboards you would be able to see this, as different groups in each alliance compete.

EgoRush

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

As far as EU server goes we have at least one guild per faction that still cares for the leaderboards. I'm certain there are more. Bananas have BabyFace with credible people like Latter that only want a reset if they aren't top :P (I admire the honesty), and Beyond Infinity who currently dominate the scoreboard. The blues have Almost Heroes who are getting some fantastic scores too. And of course the reds have Hodor and Aetherius Eight among others. All the top guilds are competitive enough that they wouldn't need to rely on PvP buffs to get decent scores. But an even playing field would certainly improve moral for those that never have buffs. I'm confident US server has people in all factions gunning for top scores too.

Forestd16b14_ESO

I pick number 3. Who cares just remove PvP buffs from PvE already.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO

Yes, reset the leaderboards.

In my opinion benefit from pvp buffs was high so leaderboards should be erased.