ESO Endgame. ZoS help us want it.

Fissh

Since 1.6, I have noticed a significant drop in Trial interest. Though I love the new difficulty because of mechanics in fights meaning more, I find little more reason to do the Trials. First and foremost...Champion Points (CP). CP is character progression. For a VR14 (or anyone for that matter), Trials are the absolute worst place to achieve CP. This is endgame material right? Then it should be the optimal way to progress. PERIOD. Putting 12 people together for endgame content should be the most rewarding (PvE side of things that is). I am not even sure how this fact could possibly be overlooked in house. Currently, the best way to "progress" is to either farm DSA for CP or roll an alt for CP, really? AA, HelRa, and SO should be the bread winners. They are what endgamers assume to be....well....endgame. Progression should constitute CP gain, and loot, particularly for an already VR14, hands down, no questions asked, PERIOD. And typically in MMOs, endgame is the stuff that takes the large groups, i.e. Trials, Raids.

Hopefully, in terms of CP (XP), ZoS has made the correct change:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/159107/changes-to-xp-gains-for-trials#latest

But that leaves one more very important problem...LOOT!
Currently, particularly for DPS, the working strategy is to stack either weapon or spell POWER. So lets ask ourselves where the best LOOT for such stacking is available:
Spell pwr: Martial Knowledge - Cryodiil delves or rare chance in SO treasure chest.
Cryodiil Light Jewelry - Cryodiil PvP vendor
Torugs Pact - Craftable
Adroitness - Vet Dung
Weapon pwr: Two-Fanged Snake Jewelry - AA, Helra (probably the ONLY loot in Trials that people want....ONLY)
Ravagers set - Cryodiil PvP vendor (besides the jewelry, however, it is heavy)
Morag Tong set - PvP vendor
Hawk's Eye (for bow users) - PvP vendor
Druegh Slayer - Yeah, random drop in Trials. (However, it is heavy)
Hundings Rage - Craftable
PRIMARY PVE LOOT IS IN PVP?????????????????????????????????

Maybe I did not get them all, and I know there are a couple medium armor sets with wpn power, but they have horrible traits. Ultimately, you should get my point. Where is the endgame loot? CERTAINLY NOT IN ENDGAME MATERIAL. How many PvE'ers want to farm PvP for their loot? The system is completely screwed, imo.
Having craftable gear to fill in slots is good, this part is correct. Though I would love a 2pc wpn power craftable set to work with, but I digress. But what about the rest? The Trial gear is horrible for DPS'ers, period. Why is the Trial gear not on par with endgame mechanics? This is a huge miss for ZoS.

To me, the "carrot-on-the-stick" does not exist in ESO. This "carrot" is why most of us progression endgamers play. My 12 man group in a Trial should be earning CP at an optimal rate. They should also be fighting as a team to down these bosses for the loot. Neither of which are the case. The absolute only reason to go into Trials currently is for a score. Even the weekly loot is just legendary vr14 versions of the loot we dont want. I hate to do weeklys for eternity just to finally get the only loot worth having for Trials.....two fanged jewelry for my melee toon.

Solutions:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/159107/changes-to-xp-gains-for-trials#latest
hope this covers the optimal xp gain ENDGAMERS DESERVE!!!

Come up with a new loot table for the Trials, with weapon/spell power loot. PvE'ers should PVE FOR PVE LOOT!! Trials should offer top tier loot. Fixing this will make a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

THATS IT!!

The "carrot-on-the-stick" should be in endgame for endgamers, this is not a hard concept to wrap your mind around. If you (ZOS) dont grab onto to this logic soon and keep in the forefront of your material...then endgamers will leave to a game with actual endgame. This is critical to the survival of PVE gamers on ESO. If that proverbial carrot does not exist, what do you think will happen? The logic is grounded, obvious, and right in your face. Please fix it so ESO has logical endgame. PLEASE! I highly recommend you get on this quickly as damage control. Keep what loyal endgamers you have. Or suffer a game lost to console/PC casuals.

Mr.Turtlesworth

ESO needs some form of small scale PvP, like 3v3 arenas or even 10v10 bgs. They also need the option to DUEL. GOD WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND? If they want pvpers to stay subbed to this game, they need to add at least 2 of these 3 things.

Fissh

Mr.Turtlesworth wrote: »

ESO needs some form of small scale PvP, like 3v3 arenas or even 10v10 bgs. They also need the option to DUEL. GOD WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND? If they want pvpers to stay subbed to this game, they need to add at least 2 of these 3 things.

Though I appreciate this opinion as well, I would like this thread to be focused on PvE endgame (Trials). I suggest writing up a PvP version of this kind of post so you can foster PVPers support.

painsworth01

Absolutely concur. I have two vet 14's that no longer raid. What's the point? I hardly play with them at all. No quest content left except Craiglorn which yields very little reward even IF you can keep a group together to run the stuff...hate the phasing out thing.

Makes no sense for PVE players to be forced to PVP to acquire gear for the best dps builds. I've even quit referring to Deltia's Gaming because now the builds seem to be based on PVP gear.

DDuke

Why run 6 month old raid, that doesn't even provide good gear? XP will help a little, but why shouldn't I just spend that time PvP'ing or doing other stuff (if that's more rewarding gear and/or XP wise)?

The fact that hardest to get gear in this game (Vicious Ophidian, Eternal Yokeda & Infallible Aether) don't even have unique looks (they share those with common green world drops, that are even statistically better in most cases), is telling.

Good end game itemization & rewards is what this game is lacking, and XP (what a boring reward) alone isn't going to cut it.

"Seasonal gear", mentioned last summer @ QuakeCon, coming when?
"More traditional raids", mentioned last autumn, coming when?


These are questions that still lack answers.

Fissh

DDuke wrote: »

"Seasonal gear", mentioned last summer @ QuakeCon, coming when?
"More traditional raids", mentioned last autumn, coming when?


These are questions that still lack answers.

EXACTLY!!! These are issues that have EXTREME IMPACT ON LONG TERM CUSTOMERS!!!
"Money is in the comeback".....age old saying in business. Lets make endgame worthy of 'comeback' or we are all just playing to roll alts or PvP...silly.

timidobserver

They have already said they are fixing the CP XP for trials. It is stickied on the front page, but yes the loot definitely needs to be better. It is definitely strange that endgame gear doesn't come from the endgame.

Prizax

I guess ZoS didn't see it coming...people using PvP gear for better dps, but yeah they need to add a better gear from trials or 8-9 traits.

Fissh

timidobserver wrote: »

They have already said they are fixing the CP XP for trials. It is stickied on the front page, but yes the loot definitely needs to be better. It is definitely strange that endgame gear doesn't come from the endgame.

Yep. If you read my entire post you will see I provided a link to the CP/XP incoming change.

timidobserver

Fissh wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

They have already said they are fixing the CP XP for trials. It is stickied on the front page, but yes the loot definitely needs to be better. It is definitely strange that endgame gear doesn't come from the endgame.

Yep. If you read my entire post you will see I provided a link to the CP/XP incoming change.

Yup I saw that, I was going mostly off of the first paragraph where it goes on about how bad the XP is in trials.

But yeh, the gear situation is pretty bad. For example, compare the Ravager set and the Burning Spellweave set. One from a PVE endgame dungeon and one from a PvP vendor. They both do basically the same thing in terms of mechanics, aside from one being spell and one physical, but for whatever reason, the PvP variation has to be so much better. Ravager provides more stats and has a smaller cooldown.

Fissh

timidobserver wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

They have already said they are fixing the CP XP for trials. It is stickied on the front page, but yes the loot definitely needs to be better. It is definitely strange that endgame gear doesn't come from the endgame.

Yep. If you read my entire post you will see I provided a link to the CP/XP incoming change.

Yup I saw that, I was going mostly off of the first paragraph where it goes on about how bad the XP is in trials.

But yeh, the gear situation is pretty bad. For example, compare the Ravager set and the Burning Spellweave set. One from a PVE endgame dungeon and one from a PvP vendor. They both do basically the same thing in terms of mechanics, aside from one being spell and one physical, but for whatever reason, the PvP variation has to be so much better.

or the Sunderflame set, which does nothing to bosses making the set almost pointless. They really need to put more thought into where the "good" stuff is available/drops and what makes it good.

Tabre

Fissh, I wish you weren't so right about this. I could not agree more. Endgame needs attention. Devs, please pay attention. We need more incentive to do endgame content!

ninpo.ericub17_ESO

Fissh is right on with this comment. Its sad when raid loot isn't helpful for raiding as it is in other MMO's. I love ESO but it lacks in this way. Please correct the loot tables. Have loot progress with the level of raid and actually help players work on the next raid they go into.

Fissh

So lets bring this back up and get some attention on it already. The XP patch was better, but still not on par. However, it was taken away because of exploit, so here we sit in Endgame limbo.

Trial XP possible fixes:

• Flat rate the XP. 2/4 Man groups earn the same XP as a 12 Man group. Now the scaling of XP for group size does not get exploited.
• Lockout the second door (time starting door) to only let in 12 people.
• My Favorite: Remove XP completely from Trials. Instead, reward a Champion Point upon a Trial completion (quest turn in). Each Trial can award a CP once per day. A 12 man group thereby can earn 3 CPs (AA, HelRa, SO) once per day. Holy crap....does that promote 12 man grouping or what????

Trial Gear possible fixes:

• All dps jewelry 2 set bonuses should have weapon or spell damage (which ever is relevant). Period.
• Aether and Ophidian should have more weapon or spell damage on it as well. Comparable, if not even better than, things like Ravager, Morug Tong, and Martial Knowledge.
• The five set bonuses on Aether and Ophidian are crap. Endgame gear those sets already. A armor/spell resist debuff that does not work on many bosses?? Speed after a roll dodge or kill??? Both garbage in terms of endgame rewards.
• Of course these changes should apply to Vicious and Energized but with a little extra.

Lets get some attention here. Post post post. Click Click Click. Make these devs see this. Endgame is dying. Lets not let it.

jluceyub17_ESO

3 piece vicious ophidian is still a great choice for stam dps. Also, I don't consider the heavy pieces of Ravager and Dreugh King-Slayer to be a negative, the undaunted passives and re-vamped armor system makes 2 heavy pieces a decent trade-off from a full medium set.

My guild still runs Trials regularly each week, Sanctum and the Hardmodes for AA/HRC is still a fun challenge thats rewarding to complete and improve on, not to mention the Sanctum gear for Tanking and Stam DPS are farm-worthy.

Fissh

jluceyub17_ESO wrote: »

3 piece vicious ophidian is still a great choice for stam dps. Also, I don't consider the heavy pieces of Ravager and Dreugh King-Slayer to be a negative, the undaunted passives and re-vamped armor system makes 2 heavy pieces a decent trade-off from a full medium set.

My guild still runs Trials regularly each week, Sanctum and the Hardmodes for AA/HRC is still a fun challenge thats rewarding to complete and improve on, not to mention the Sanctum gear for Tanking and Stam DPS are farm-worthy.

3 piece Vicious is completely negated with the stamina reduction passive in CP. I foster much much better results on my stam builds with simply stacking wpn power and using CP in heavy attack stam return or in stam cost reduction. Dreugh Slayer is one of the only worthy random drops in Trials. Ravager is PvP, as stated above. I, too, run HMs and Trials still, but rewarding? Not even mate. Tank gear is worthy for ONE FIGHT, and that is Serpent, and only because the mechanic of picking up purple shields is so damn RNG. Otherwise, the tank gear is crap.
Ultimately, I hope to see better reason to do endgame besides just "fun". The "carrot on the stick" must also be in the mix.
I appreciate your opinion, but lets be real....Trials are only rewarding for completion status and that is all.

Audigy

To focus rewards purely on Trials is the worst thing ZOS could do. Its bad enough that all new content since release was only for Trial players and nothing for solo players or those who like to RP.

The reason why ESO is in such a bad state in the eyes of many is the lack of content besides Trials and if you would now also reward Trials with the best CP, then this game will face a very hard time in the upcoming months.

I don't understand why some players see Trials / Raiding as the only good and rewarding thing in MMOs. My only explanation is inexperience in the genre or being spoiled by WOW. MMO´s are not only about instanced dungeons, they have a lot more to offer.

Fact is, a good MMO offers various things that its players can do. The amount of people doing raids is so small that focusing on them is the biggest mistake a company can do. It would exclude a huge amount of players and the result we see every day when we log on to this forum. Unhappy players who don't understand that DB or TG, Barber shops, housing are still not implemented, while so many dungeons are.

I think its a pity that the current XP system is so uneven. Large group content or grinding gives huge amounts of rewards, while questing through the story line doesn't. In a perfect world, the player should be able to do what he or she wants to and still be rewarded evenly to everyone else.

Fissh

Audigy wrote: »

To focus rewards purely on Trials is the worst thing ZOS could do. Its bad enough that all new content since release was only for Trial players and nothing for solo players or those who like to RP.

The reason why ESO is in such a bad state in the eyes of many is the lack of content besides Trials and if you would now also reward Trials with the best CP, then this game will face a very hard time in the upcoming months.

I don't understand why some players see Trials / Raiding as the only good and rewarding thing in MMOs. My only explanation is inexperience in the genre or being spoiled by WOW. MMO´s are not only about instanced dungeons, they have a lot more to offer.

Fact is, a good MMO offers various things that its players can do. The amount of people doing raids is so small that focusing on them is the biggest mistake a company can do. It would exclude a huge amount of players and the result we see every day when we log on to this forum. Unhappy players who don't understand that DB or TG, Barber shops, housing are still not implemented, while so many dungeons are.

I think its a pity that the current XP system is so uneven. Large group content or grinding gives huge amounts of rewards, while questing through the story line doesn't. In a perfect world, the player should be able to do what he or she wants to and still be rewarded evenly to everyone else.

I appreciate your opinion. Even reward across the board will do. However, you are mistaken.
- Solo content is the absolute most rewarding for CP with exception of DSA.
- MMO are exactly that "multiplayer massive", and dungeon, Trials and the like are what embody multiplayer. Not solo content.
- Housing and such is a good topic, however, it would be better suited in a thread of it's own.
- In terms of gear, endgame and large group content should absolutely be the most rewarding. Hard(est) content should provide best loot. Logic is sound.
- "Grinding" may give a little more reward, but questing solo gives a very good amount. 20k for a hour in Trials, you get it? Nothing compared to 100sK per hour with solo questing.
- "In a perfect world, the player should be able to do what he or she wants to and still be rewarded evenly to everyone else." I completely agree. However, currently the endgame pve content is the absolute least rewarding in CP. The things need to be at least close to each other before we discuss "perfection". As it stands, there are leaps and bounds for large group CP vs solo CP.

Fissh

Tested last night in HelRa after 2.0.3 Patch.
57k XP without Enlightenment.
Garbage.
I dont even know what to say.
Endgame is pointless.
No Dev response.
Losing interest.
Everyone go PVP or level alts until game is dead I guess.....

Fissh

Want to know how I know endgame is dead? Look at the threads. "My mount skips a beat" seems to be most important. "PvP lag" (very much an issue of its own). But anyone complaining about endgame besides me? Nope. They all must have went to a MMO with actual endgame reward.

Xjcon

Fissh wrote: »

Want to know how I know endgame is dead? Look at the threads. "My mount skips a beat" seems to be most important. "PvP lag" (very much an issue of its own). But anyone complaining about endgame besides me? Nope. They all must have went to a MMO with actual endgame reward.

I know several people who did exactly this, I also know more just don't log on anymore for reasons I can only guess, all happened when 1.6 was released

monkeyzealer

i agree i think it is bs that engame loot sucks compared to pvp gear except for so. I really dont want to have to pvp to get a slim chance at getting a morag tong piece! i rather do pve like a trial/dungeon to get my gear.

Fissh

Xjcon wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Want to know how I know endgame is dead? Look at the threads. "My mount skips a beat" seems to be most important. "PvP lag" (very much an issue of its own). But anyone complaining about endgame besides me? Nope. They all must have went to a MMO with actual endgame reward.

I know several people who did exactly this, I also know more just don't log on anymore for reasons I can only guess, all happened when 1.6 was released

Such an easy fix. Sadness.

Zapzarap

One of the most important threads out there PvE "End-Content" is just for your ego to be on the leaderboard... And the get there you need to to pve and other stuff because you cant get any good loot in the trials... pre 1.6 you got some good loot, ok... now they are totally crap. Please change it. Make it even more harder... you can still "skip" the mechanics of the first 2 bosses in AA. There should be some gear progression...

pmacisback

And what I don't understand is how more PVEr's aren't more vocal about this. It is concerning to me that almost every guild I'm in is running sanctum (hardest content), and what's left after they've mastered that? All the gear most people need can be bought through a trader or farmed in a 4-man dungeon. I'm with ya, Fissh.

Valymer

Fissh wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Want to know how I know endgame is dead? Look at the threads. "My mount skips a beat" seems to be most important. "PvP lag" (very much an issue of its own). But anyone complaining about endgame besides me? Nope. They all must have went to a MMO with actual endgame reward.

I know several people who did exactly this, I also know more just don't log on anymore for reasons I can only guess, all happened when 1.6 was released

Such an easy fix. Sadness.

The answer is right in front of you my friend.

In fact, you chose it as your very username!!

The true endgame content in ESO is fishing. That Master Angler title isn't going to earn itself, you know!

Kildayen

I agree 100% with the OP. I have seen several of the end game guilds fall apart because people quit. I am now one of those people. I can only beg so much for the things talked about in this thread. I'm now tired and kinda broken hearted. I really loved this game. It just wasn't made for the end gamers I guess.

WhiskyBob

.....and NEVER make another set with 20minute effect cooldown. Yes I am talking bout Armor of Useless Yokeda

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Fissh wrote: »

Want to know how I know endgame is dead? Look at the threads. "My mount skips a beat" seems to be most important. "PvP lag" (very much an issue of its own). But anyone complaining about endgame besides me? Nope. They all must have went to a MMO with actual endgame reward.

Or maybe the lack of people complaining about the things you are interested in simply shows how much of a small minority hardcore group-or-die end-gamers are? Which of course makes it more galling that the only PVE content added since release pandered to such a small minority.

xMovingTarget

Fissh wrote: »

They all must have went to a MMO with actual endgame reward.

Nah, just gave up on it. It´s a traintrack with an unfinished canyonbridge. And we are on the train.

AssaultLemming

I haven't done trials in weeks because the reward just isn't there for the time it would take. Also I find the fact that it also just comes down to speed to be a very dull style of raiding. Wish it was more about the mechanics of the fights, and I wish that there was more emphasis on crowd control and other support functions and less on dps.