Wait a Secunda... what's with this moon logic?

Gidorick

So, the Elder Scrolls Online Engine is a proprietary engine that was built specifically for ESO. This makes me wonder WHY in mundus doesn't Secunda have a reflection in the water? Masser with the reflection is beautiful... it would be much more beautiful if Secunda had one too.


While we're on the subject, Masser's reflection in the water, despite there being no visible moons, is also puzzling.



Hopefully these small oversights will be able to be addressed some day.

Neizir

Also one thing I noticed in the first screenshot, their phases also seem to be different. The explanation probably is that Masser is blocking out some of Magnus' light, but still odd nonetheless.

Roechacca

Stendarr's Beard that's weird !

Digiman

It's obviously a graphical oversight synonymous with game design. Maybe they will fix in the future, but the wait will probably be long or never.

Gidorick

I'm going to submit this as a bug in /feedback

Snit

I think it's awesome that you're paying enough attention to the gameworld to notice this You're probably enjoying the game more than those locked into the DPS meter.

Tamanous

I can see ZoS now:

Developer lead: "Some lore junky on the forum is saying our moon reflections on water still show when clouded over".

Programmer: ... stops looking for game breaking bugs ... "Umm, Does this stop their progression?"

Developer lead: "Nope. Other than stopping to post on the forums about it."

Programmer: "$*@# son of a ... Can you just write it into lore or something?"

Developer lead: "Ok moon light is now magical and shines on water no matter what." ... runs off to write something about Maormer causing this it for some malevolent purpose.

Programmer: Sighs ... goes back to fixing real bugs.

tinythinker

Did someone say Secunda?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzpF09YyZe8

Gidorick

Snit wrote: »

I think it's awesome that you're paying enough attention to the gameworld to notice this You're probably enjoying the game more than those locked into the DPS meter.

Oh I'm enjoying it immensely! I've actually spent some time trying to find the different constellations of Nirn in the night sky. No luck so far.

But then again we all have our own definitions of "fun"

Gidorick

JD2013 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Many people here can at least say they are listened to period. I feel ignored entirely by Zenimax when it comes to bug reporting... And so far there is no evidence to prove otherwise. I report a good amount of bugs too

There's one bug I report regularly... Secunda doesn't have a reflection in the water. That REALLY bugs me. hehe.

I need to check that out and that'll bug me.

You needn't go in game to check this weird phenomenon out @JD2013 ! I have documented it here, in this thread!

Elebeth

This one says, you shaveskins have eaten some bad moon sugar! Too much nonsense coming out of your mouths.

Even the Ja'Khajiits know all about Jone and Jode! The guardians of dead Lorkhaj. The Lunar Lattice. The Ja'Kha'jay! What is this "Magus light" this one hears you talk about? This "reflection" you see on the water has nothing to do with all that nonsense!

That is the gift of Azurah! Lunar Compass! The Bright Stairs! For it is known that if the moons ever fail, this ones people must climb the skys and set things right. Azurah was clever and knew that many things can be lost in Namiiras darkness so she bestow upon us the way to see the path to Jone and Jode, bright and clear, no matter the situation!

eNumbra

Because the engine considers to the two moons as one global light.

TheShadowScout

Its obvious if you think about it.
...
Secunda is a... (wait for it) VAMPIRE MOON!

Gidorick

eNumbra wrote: »

Because the engine considers to the two moons as one global light.

Ah... THAT is where my issue lies @eNumbra . According to ZOS this engine was CREATED for ESO. Why wouldn't they design the night sky in consideration of the two light sources? One of two things occurred. Either:

• Absolutely no one noticed
• They noticed and decided it wasn't important

BOTH are equally disappointing.

Gidorick

Elebeth wrote: »

This one says, you shaveskins have eaten some bad moon sugar! Too much nonsense coming out of your mouths.

Even the Ja'Khajiits know all about Jone and Jode! The guardians of dead Lorkhaj. The Lunar Lattice. The Ja'Kha'jay! What is this "Magus light" this one hears you talk about? This "reflection" you see on the water has nothing to do with all that nonsense!

That is the gift of Azurah! Lunar Compass! The Bright Stairs! For it is known that if the moons ever fail, this ones people must climb the skys and set things right. Azurah was clever and knew that many things can be lost in Namiiras darkness so she bestow upon us the way to see the path to Jone and Jode, bright and clear, no matter the situation!

Ya know @Elebeth, if that were in a book or something somewhere, it would totally satisfy me.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Its obvious if you think about it.
...
Secunda is a... (wait for it) VAMPIRE MOON!

That wouldn't @TheShadowScout

JDar

Well you have to remember the light is coming from behind the camera, not behind the moons. I guess it might be possible that if Magnus' light was coming from a certain angle behind Nirn that the reflections of both moons might converge on one point in this photo.

Somebody smarter than me should find out.

JDar

This image has the author's Deviant Art marked on it so I think that should suffice as proper credit. Thought this was semi-related to the topic cool post OP

SirAndy

eNumbra wrote: »

Because the engine considers to the two moons as one global light.

^^^

Since global lights are a somewhat limited commodity in a game engine, they simply only use one for daytime and one for nighttime.

Elebeth

@JDar

How to debate this largely depends on which (game) view of cosmology you decide to follow.

It's either:

• Everything works just like in our world and the NPCs explain natural cosmic occurrences through religion and mysticism
• Everything works just like the NPCs explain it in-game
• Everything works similar to our world but with different "laws" and the NPCs explain "natural" cosmic occurrences through religion and mysticism

The image you posted seems to depict the first option. But most of the NPCs throughout the TES series (except groups that have different religious view on the matter; eg. Khajiit) go with the idea that the Moons are literally rotting pieces of a dead god.

I'm not wondering if there should be one or two reflections (it should be two), I'm wondering if there should be reflections at all.

However, this is TES so it's likely that the answer is all those things together plus 10 or 20 things more in that mix...

Gidorick

The lore bases answers are cool but I'd love to know if a similar phenomenon occurs in skyrim. The technical answers are done also bit I've responded to why the global light source excuse doesn't really jive. ESOs engine was created explicitly for ESO... so why not code the ability to have 2 global light sources into the engine?

tplink3r1

Gidorick wrote: »

The lore bases answers are cool but I'd love to know if a similar phenomenon occurs in skyrim. The technical answers are done also bit I've responded to why the global light source excuse doesn't really jive. ESOs engine was created explicitly for ESO... so why not code the ability to have 2 global light sources into the engine?

Cause they never paid attention to it?

Glaiceana

Damn it Gidorick, now I'll never unsee this xD

Gidorick

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

The lore bases answers are cool but I'd love to know if a similar phenomenon occurs in skyrim. The technical answers are done also bit I've responded to why the global light source excuse doesn't really jive. ESOs engine was created explicitly for ESO... so why not code the ability to have 2 global light sources into the engine?

Cause they never paid attention to it?

THAT seems like a HUGE oversight to me.

Maybe I need to ask about this in the ask us anything thread.

Gidorick

I just checked Skyrim and that game doesn't seem to reflect the global light like ESO does at night and it doesn't reflect the sky box, so there is no analogous comparison with Skyrim.

Gidorick

Glaiceana wrote: »

Damn it Gidorick, now I'll never unsee this xD

sorry @Glaiceana . I actually actively avoid bodies of water at night because it irritates me. I also try not to swim because not being able to dive into the water irritates me too.

SirAndy

Gidorick wrote: »

the global light source excuse doesn't really jive

Except, i wasn't excusing anything, but rather stating facts.

Having worked as a programmer in the gaming industry for many years i can tell you that global light sources that illuminate the whole scene (as opposed to local lights who have a finite radius) are a limited resource in any game engine.

That doesn't mean you couldn't have two or more at the same time but i understand why ZOS decided to spend those resources elsewhere. The last thing you want to add to an engine that already has significant FPS problems are additional rendering passes per frame.

Gidorick

Thanks for the insight @SirAndy could the effect not be achieved with a texture or mirroring effect where there is only 1 global light source but the 2nd reflection is faked? Perhaps the second light isn't a global light source but a spotlight that is directly on the water.

SirAndy

Gidorick wrote: »

Thanks for the insight @SirAndy could the effect not be achieved with a texture or mirroring effect where there is only 1 global light source but the 2nd reflection is faked? Perhaps the second light isn't a global light source but a spotlight that is directly on the water.

The water reflection could most certainly be faked to include both moons without actually using two directional lights ...

Forestd16b14_ESO

Welp cover the couches the Khajiit players are gonna flip out when they notice this.

Gidorick

SirAndy wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Thanks for the insight @SirAndy could the effect not be achieved with a texture or mirroring effect where there is only 1 global light source but the 2nd reflection is faked? Perhaps the second light isn't a global light source but a spotlight that is directly on the water.

The water reflection could most certainly be faked to include both moons without actually using two directional lights ...

Ok.. yea. That would completely solve the "issue". And with 2 global light sources we would probably end up with a weird double shadow effect anyway.

Gidorick

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Welp cover the couches the Khajiit players are gonna flip out when they notice this.

I think they're too "busy" to notice things like this...