How many is enough?

RivenEsq

I am referring to this thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

Almost 2300 people have voted regarding whether or not there should be an AoE cap. More than 90 percent of those players have voted against it. 2070 people.

This thread has over 12k views and 500 replies in less than 24 hours.

How many votes, posts, and players crying out against these changes is enough to warrant a genuine response from the development team?

I know of at least a dozen guilds that will pack their bags and leave if these changes go through and those are far from the only ones. Can we please get some attention to this issue? When so many of a community that has decades of experience in MMOs tells you not to change something, how can you look us in the face and say that we're wrong? Balance and change individual skills all you want, but PLEASE, I beg of you, do not continue with these sweeping changes.

p.hurst1b16_ESO

Correct, the devs need to be very careful. The PvP contingent is always a minority in game but have a very loud voice on the official forums. This is always the case.

More wreckage of PvE happens due to younger pvp whingers getting their way than anything else.

That poll drew out a lot of non posters and shows what the majority thinks.

The current aoe is forcing the zergs to think more tactically and that is a good thing. The QQ brigade just rail at anything they die to and cannot be bothered to adapt to.

Fixing aoe to 6 targets is a very very rash move after all those months of beta.

Leave it. It is ok as it is. It is actually perfect right now.

Zarec

The change needs more testing and I honestly think they need to separate balance changes in pvp and pve. One balance change for one should not effect the other unless intentional.

I agree with the limitation in pve but pvp there isn't enough data to refer to currently.

Also I always like how people threaten to leave and a lot of them don't. It's like threatening suicide, if you're gonna do it most people won't talk about it. The ones that talk about it just want attention and to feel special.

Gunsang

They're not giving enough credit to players to think. We had an AoE group chasing us down a lot in pvp yesterday--and the more it happened, the more the players started to think, and even get tougher.

Low and behold we were wiping them faster then Windex on windows, and almost every person fighting back was a potential AoE army smasher. They were literally becoming immune to the whole effect, standing their ground, and even moments of standing IN their AoE and pushing them back with barely any losses.

They have definitely not seen how players can break builds as opposed to creating them.

Deepfry

RivenVII wrote: »

Almost 2300 people have voted regarding whether or not there should be an AoE cap. More than 90 percent of those players have voted against it. 2070 people.

This thread has over 12k views and 500 replies in less than 24 hours.

How many votes, posts, and players crying out against these changes is enough to warrant a genuine response from the development team?

I'm sure your issue is a genuine one. I am only replying to offer my view on "MMO forum statistics".

First of all, it is generally accepted that the majority of players who visit forums tend to do so a) to find out how to do something in-game or b) to complain about something. It has therefore been suggested (in dozens of forums for dozens of MMOs) that those who do not visit forums are generally happy with the game.

I have no idea how many ESO subscribers there are. Let's take a very very conservative guess and say 100,000. So one statistical interpretation might be that 2070 players out of 100,000 have voted against the AOE cap. So about 2%. So the answer to your first question, "how many people is enough to warrant a genuine response from devs" might well be " a helluva lot more than 2%".

Or, we could take your statistics in a different way. In less than 24 hours there have been 12K views and 500 replies. So only 4.1% of those who read the thread were bothered enough to write a comment. Once again, the answer to your question might be "a helluva lot more than 4%".

One could even go so far as to say that there are 500 replies out of the entire player base ... if we go back to my conservative estimate of only 100K players, these 500 replies represent far less than 1% of players.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm sure your concern is a valid one. I myself have voiced concerns in other MMOs. I simply want to point out that forums are not generally representative of the entire player base. By definition they only represent the players who are bothered by an issue.

Best of luck though !

Spriggen

See what happens. I think Zen really *** this up not putting aoe caps to start with.

Nacario

I think there should be an aoe cap. Certain classes have it to easy to just run around and spam their aoes with little effort and tactical thought, while they have better survivability. Classes like nightblade gets the short end of the stick.

Lox

@Deepfry‌, I couldn't agree more and thanks for saving me the time of posting a very similar response myself

BenjaminKacher_ESO

Oh wow, 2300 of the 1m+ that have bought the game so far voted on something? that's cool...

stop crying that you cant farm your zombies as fast and get back to farming zombies.

BenjaminKacher_ESO

Better yet, take all those guilds you claim will quit (idk how a guild quits... but whatever) and go back to WOW where there's no AOE cap... OH WAIT THERE IS!?! what is this madness, it seems all MMO's have AOE caps these days for no good reason. They must all be doing something wrong.

Zarec

Deepfry wrote: »

RivenVII wrote: »

Almost 2300 people have voted regarding whether or not there should be an AoE cap. More than 90 percent of those players have voted against it. 2070 people.

This thread has over 12k views and 500 replies in less than 24 hours.

How many votes, posts, and players crying out against these changes is enough to warrant a genuine response from the development team?

I'm sure your issue is a genuine one. I am only replying to offer my view on "MMO forum statistics".

First of all, it is generally accepted that the majority of players who visit forums tend to do so a) to find out how to do something in-game or b) to complain about something. It has therefore been suggested (in dozens of forums for dozens of MMOs) that those who do not visit forums are generally happy with the game.

I have no idea how many ESO subscribers there are. Let's take a very very conservative guess and say 100,000. So one statistical interpretation might be that 2070 players out of 100,000 have voted against the AOE cap. So about 2%. So the answer to your first question, "how many people is enough to warrant a genuine response from devs" might well be " a helluva lot more than 2%".

Or, we could take your statistics in a different way. In less than 24 hours there have been 12K views and 500 replies. So only 4.1% of those who read the thread were bothered enough to write a comment. Once again, the answer to your question might be "a helluva lot more than 4%".

One could even go so far as to say that there are 500 replies out of the entire player base ... if we go back to my conservative estimate of only 100K players, these 500 replies represent far less than 1% of players.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm sure your concern is a valid one. I myself have voiced concerns in other MMOs. I simply want to point out that forums are not generally representative of the entire player base. By definition they only represent the players who are bothered by an issue.

Best of luck though !

I'm bookmarking this

Naguur86

Wasn't there an AOE-Cap all the time? As I understood it, the PTS-changes only balance the existing caps out a little. Am I wrong?

Varivox9

Deepfry wrote: »

RivenVII wrote: »

Almost 2300 people have voted regarding whether or not there should be an AoE cap. More than 90 percent of those players have voted against it. 2070 people.

This thread has over 12k views and 500 replies in less than 24 hours.

How many votes, posts, and players crying out against these changes is enough to warrant a genuine response from the development team?

I'm sure your issue is a genuine one. I am only replying to offer my view on "MMO forum statistics".

First of all, it is generally accepted that the majority of players who visit forums tend to do so a) to find out how to do something in-game or b) to complain about something. It has therefore been suggested (in dozens of forums for dozens of MMOs) that those who do not visit forums are generally happy with the game.

I have no idea how many ESO subscribers there are. Let's take a very very conservative guess and say 100,000. So one statistical interpretation might be that 2070 players out of 100,000 have voted against the AOE cap. So about 2%. So the answer to your first question, "how many people is enough to warrant a genuine response from devs" might well be " a helluva lot more than 2%".

Or, we could take your statistics in a different way. In less than 24 hours there have been 12K views and 500 replies. So only 4.1% of those who read the thread were bothered enough to write a comment. Once again, the answer to your question might be "a helluva lot more than 4%".

One could even go so far as to say that there are 500 replies out of the entire player base ... if we go back to my conservative estimate of only 100K players, these 500 replies represent far less than 1% of players.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm sure your concern is a valid one. I myself have voiced concerns in other MMOs. I simply want to point out that forums are not generally representative of the entire player base. By definition they only represent the players who are bothered by an issue.

Best of luck though !

That's all true, but there are very few polls I've seen on any other forum with a similar issue that has reached a 90% majority. The PvP crowd is typically very vocal and I know chatter among my 5 guilds has been a resounding "no" to this as well. It may be a small sample, but at 90% against, that small sample, with "only" 2000 votes, is pretty significant. I do research in psychology, and the studies I run normally only include 100-200 subjects. 2000 would be amazing, but we use a small sample to draw conclusions about the entire human population. It is different, yes, but if we assume that "the majority of players who visit forums tend to do so a) to find out how to do something in-game or b) to complain about something." then we can also assume that those people who complain about OP AoE would also vote (therefore satisfying your "b"). Those people would vote "for" the AoE cap, of which only 10% of our sample want it (many of the comments supporting that 10% also mention that they just want specific skills nerfed and not all aoe skills). We don't need to have 100% of the players to vote in order to draw a conclusion, we just need a large enough sample of our population to do so, and 2000+ (for something not even in game yet I might add) is a fairly large sample size from which to draw our conclusion. What is that conclusion? An AoE cap is a bad idea.

Zarec

Deepfry wrote: »

RivenVII wrote: »

Almost 2300 people have voted regarding whether or not there should be an AoE cap. More than 90 percent of those players have voted against it. 2070 people.

This thread has over 12k views and 500 replies in less than 24 hours.

How many votes, posts, and players crying out against these changes is enough to warrant a genuine response from the development team?

I'm sure your issue is a genuine one. I am only replying to offer my view on "MMO forum statistics".

First of all, it is generally accepted that the majority of players who visit forums tend to do so a) to find out how to do something in-game or b) to complain about something. It has therefore been suggested (in dozens of forums for dozens of MMOs) that those who do not visit forums are generally happy with the game.

I have no idea how many ESO subscribers there are. Let's take a very very conservative guess and say 100,000. So one statistical interpretation might be that 2070 players out of 100,000 have voted against the AOE cap. So about 2%. So the answer to your first question, "how many people is enough to warrant a genuine response from devs" might well be " a helluva lot more than 2%".

Or, we could take your statistics in a different way. In less than 24 hours there have been 12K views and 500 replies. So only 4.1% of those who read the thread were bothered enough to write a comment. Once again, the answer to your question might be "a helluva lot more than 4%".

One could even go so far as to say that there are 500 replies out of the entire player base ... if we go back to my conservative estimate of only 100K players, these 500 replies represent far less than 1% of players.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm sure your concern is a valid one. I myself have voiced concerns in other MMOs. I simply want to point out that forums are not generally representative of the entire player base. By definition they only represent the players who are bothered by an issue.

Best of luck though !

You forgot to take into account the multiple posts from the same player so that 500 may be posts but it in all likelihood is not the correct number of players that have posted.

Zarec

Naguur86 wrote: »

Wasn't there an AOE-Cap all the time? As I understood it, the PTS-changes only balance the existing caps out a little. Am I wrong?

Some things were capped due to targeting or positioning constraints if I'm understanding correctly but there were no true caps. A lot of skills have more of a RNG base to it (Templar heals and Resro staff are good examples)

tengri

RivenVII wrote: »

Almost 2300 people have voted regarding whether or not there should be an AoE cap. More than 90 percent of those players have voted against it. 2070 people.

In an MMO of this scale this is nothing. Really. Nothing.

Yes, yes, most who have voted are against it. Of course they are.
If you approve or dont care ppl usually dont bother to vote; which leads us back to those 90 percent being insignificant in this huge player base.

We get it - PvP AoE spamers experts are fearing to loose their awesomeness and well deserved superiority. And we do not care. Boo hoo.

legacy-of-meub17_ESO

I believe they should leave it as it is... Instead of changing major game mechanics to satisfy the whiny kids they should let people grow up and think about how to make counter strategies.
Or what, Is Zenimax going to nerf everything in this game because kids don't know how to think?
Nerf everything until there is no challenge left on the game?

Varivox9

RivenVII wrote: »

We get it - PvP AoE spamers experts are fearing to loose their awesomeness and well deserved superiority.

Apparently you don't get it....we PvP AoE spammers aren't fearing the loss of our awesomeness, we are fearing the bastardization of PvP. We really just don't want PvP in ESO to become the same thing as GW2 PvP (but with a sub fee).

Zarec

Varivox9 wrote: »

Deepfry wrote: »

RivenVII wrote: »

Almost 2300 people have voted regarding whether or not there should be an AoE cap. More than 90 percent of those players have voted against it. 2070 people.

This thread has over 12k views and 500 replies in less than 24 hours.

How many votes, posts, and players crying out against these changes is enough to warrant a genuine response from the development team?

I'm sure your issue is a genuine one. I am only replying to offer my view on "MMO forum statistics".

First of all, it is generally accepted that the majority of players who visit forums tend to do so a) to find out how to do something in-game or b) to complain about something. It has therefore been suggested (in dozens of forums for dozens of MMOs) that those who do not visit forums are generally happy with the game.

I have no idea how many ESO subscribers there are. Let's take a very very conservative guess and say 100,000. So one statistical interpretation might be that 2070 players out of 100,000 have voted against the AOE cap. So about 2%. So the answer to your first question, "how many people is enough to warrant a genuine response from devs" might well be " a helluva lot more than 2%".

Or, we could take your statistics in a different way. In less than 24 hours there have been 12K views and 500 replies. So only 4.1% of those who read the thread were bothered enough to write a comment. Once again, the answer to your question might be "a helluva lot more than 4%".

One could even go so far as to say that there are 500 replies out of the entire player base ... if we go back to my conservative estimate of only 100K players, these 500 replies represent far less than 1% of players.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm sure your concern is a valid one. I myself have voiced concerns in other MMOs. I simply want to point out that forums are not generally representative of the entire player base. By definition they only represent the players who are bothered by an issue.

Best of luck though !

That's all true, but there are very few polls I've seen on any other forum with a similar issue that has reached a 90% majority. The PvP crowd is typically very vocal and I know chatter among my 5 guilds has been a resounding "no" to this as well. It may be a small sample, but at 90% against, that small sample, with "only" 2000 votes, is pretty significant. I do research in psychology, and the studies I run normally only include 100-200 subjects. 2000 would be amazing, but we use a small sample to draw conclusions about the entire human population. It is different, yes, but if we assume that "the majority of players who visit forums tend to do so a) to find out how to do something in-game or b) to complain about something." then we can also assume that those people who complain about OP AoE would also vote (therefore satisfying your "b"). Those people would vote "for" the AoE cap, of which only 10% of our sample want it (many of the comments supporting that 10% also mention that they just want specific skills nerfed and not all aoe skills). We don't need to have 100% of the players to vote in order to draw a conclusion, we just need a large enough sample of our population to do so, and 2000+ (for something not even in game yet I might add) is a fairly large sample size from which to draw our conclusion. What is that conclusion? An AoE cap is a bad idea.

First off never assume...no scientist social or otherwise ever assumes.

Second I would question your methods from that statement alone of the portion bolded.

BenjaminKacher_ESO

legacy-of-meub17_ESO wrote: »

I believe they should leave it as it is... Instead of changing major game mechanics to satisfy the whiny kids they should let people grow up and think about how to make counter strategies.
Or what, Is Zenimax going to nerf everything in this game because kids don't know how to think?
Nerf everything until there is no challenge left on the game?

Pretty sure the purpose of nurfing player abilities is to make them think...

(Them being the ones who use the abilities)

tengri

Varivox9 wrote: »

Apparently you don't get it....we PvP AoE spammers aren't fearing the loss of our awesomeness, we are fearing the bastardization of PvP. We really just don't want PvP in ESO to become the same thing as GW2 PvP (but with a sub fee).

Ok, just for you I now voted, too.
And I still do not care. There you go, happy now?
Or, wait a moment - I think I messed this one up... I voted in favor of the change.
Was that wrong? Silly me!

Thete

Anyone who played WAR will understand the importance of having an AoE cap for the purposes of large scale pvp. There was a nasty situation that occurred in that game where the Bright Wizards would just line up at the head of an army and be able to steamroll through anything. They had an ability that was very powerful in that there was no cap and it meant there was nothing you could do against it.

Zarec

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

First off never assume...no scientist social or otherwise ever assumes.

@Zarec
Show me facts or that's an assumption.

Scientists by nature work with the scientific method to prove their work and all published work must be replicatable and receive the same results for it to be considered (crap forget the term,dang lack of sleep).

If it cannot be proven, you are just assuming it is true aka blind faith, which faith and science have never played well together (I blame their parents, they didn't let them play in the sandbox together)

BenjaminKacher_ESO

Zarec wrote: »

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

First off never assume...no scientist social or otherwise ever assumes.

@Zarec
Show me facts or that's an assumption.

Scientists by nature work with the scientific method to prove their work and all published work must be replicatable and receive the same results for it to be considered (crap forget the term,dang lack of sleep).

If it cannot be proven, you are just assuming it is true aka blind faith, which faith and science have never played well together (I blame their parents, they didn't let them play in the sandbox together)

Seems like more assumption about Science to me...

Varivox9

Thete wrote: »

Anyone who played WAR will understand the importance of having an AoE cap for the purposes of large scale pvp. There was a nasty situation that occurred in that game where the Bright Wizards would just line up at the head of an army and be able to steamroll through anything. They had an ability that was very powerful in that there was no cap and it meant there was nothing you could do against it.

I never played it, but what you just described sounds a lot like what we have going on here. Currently, the vamp ulti is very easily abused and able to destroy an unlimited number of enemies, while players are able to keep it up for 100% of the time. It is a specific skill that is being abused but that shouldn't, imo, lead to a mass blanket nerf. It should lead to a rebalancing of that skill.

Turelus

http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857

IMO this is not fine, three people shouldn't be able to wipe an entire raid (or two) with just a couple of AoE. If you want your AoE's to hit everyone around, fine but they need to make the DPS lower so you need higher numbers to achieve this kind of killing.

BenjaminKacher_ESO

Varivox9 wrote: »

Thete wrote: »

Anyone who played WAR will understand the importance of having an AoE cap for the purposes of large scale pvp. There was a nasty situation that occurred in that game where the Bright Wizards would just line up at the head of an army and be able to steamroll through anything. They had an ability that was very powerful in that there was no cap and it meant there was nothing you could do against it.

I never played it, but what you just described sounds a lot like what we have going on here. Currently, the vamp ulti is very easily abused and able to destroy an unlimited number of enemies, while players are able to keep it up for 100% of the time. It is a specific skill that is being abused but that shouldn't, imo, lead to a mass blanket nerf. It should lead to a rebalancing of that skill.

This "blanket nurf" makes it so after that vamp ult is nurfed the next most powerful aoe doesn't need to be nurfed when that becomes the flavor of the month.

Zarec

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

First off never assume...no scientist social or otherwise ever assumes.

@Zarec
Show me facts or that's an assumption.

Scientists by nature work with the scientific method to prove their work and all published work must be replicatable and receive the same results for it to be considered (crap forget the term,dang lack of sleep).

If it cannot be proven, you are just assuming it is true aka blind faith, which faith and science have never played well together (I blame their parents, they didn't let them play in the sandbox together)

Seems like more assumption about Science to me...

Out of curiosity....did you happen to fail freshman chemistry? The scientific method was was the first chapter in my old chem class and that was 14 years ago and I still remember it. Crap...reunion this year....who wants to be help me spike the punch

Varivox9

Turelus wrote: »

http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857

IMO this is not fine, three people shouldn't be able to wipe an entire raid (or two) with just a couple of AoE. If you want your AoE's to hit everyone around, fine but they need to make the DPS lower so you need higher numbers to achieve this kind of killing.

That's the skill that everyone is complaining about. It is a single skill that is currently VERY unbalanced and VERY abused. I don't think a single skill not being balanced should lead to a massive nerf that will have drastic consequences for PvP.

I am 100% for the nerfing of that skill, but my lightning flood/twisting path are not op, so why should they suffer because a different skill is op?

Zarec

Varivox9 wrote: »

Thete wrote: »

Anyone who played WAR will understand the importance of having an AoE cap for the purposes of large scale pvp. There was a nasty situation that occurred in that game where the Bright Wizards would just line up at the head of an army and be able to steamroll through anything. They had an ability that was very powerful in that there was no cap and it meant there was nothing you could do against it.

I never played it, but what you just described sounds a lot like what we have going on here. Currently, the vamp ulti is very easily abused and able to destroy an unlimited number of enemies, while players are able to keep it up for 100% of the time. It is a specific skill that is being abused but that shouldn't, imo, lead to a mass blanket nerf. It should lead to a rebalancing of that skill.

There have been several instances that it wasn't just the vamp synch issue. DK have a issue as well.

BenjaminKacher_ESO

Zarec wrote: »

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

First off never assume...no scientist social or otherwise ever assumes.

@Zarec
Show me facts or that's an assumption.

Scientists by nature work with the scientific method to prove their work and all published work must be replicatable and receive the same results for it to be considered (crap forget the term,dang lack of sleep).

If it cannot be proven, you are just assuming it is true aka blind faith, which faith and science have never played well together (I blame their parents, they didn't let them play in the sandbox together)

Seems like more assumption about Science to me...

Out of curiosity....did you happen to fail freshman chemistry? The scientific method was was the first chapter in my old chem class and that was 14 years ago and I still remember it. Crap...reunion this year....who wants to be help me spike the punch

You obviously missed the original post hes referring too. It's the one full of numbers that confused him... (division is apparently hard)

anyway I'm poking fun at how he can say someone NEVER makes an assumption without knowing the person and the fact that he cant take raw statistics as fact and instead says It's an assumption...

Anyway this is getting boring, time to move on to another thread that actually matters.