The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
When are we getting some GMs to fight the bots?
Kythia
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Seriously? Not a single official response in days.
Yes, I read the revised Patchnotes, but it didn't help a bit. Every singleplayer dungeon in Stonefalls is infested with 10+ bots. (Except Hightide Hollow, where the boss takes several minutes to spawn.)
How long will Zenimax swim in their blissful state? Perception is everything for MMOs and right now my perception is, that there are more bots than players in this game.
If I wanted to play with bots, I would have stayed in Skyrim. The Bot-AI's are much better there.
Yes, I read the revised Patchnotes, but it didn't help a bit. Every singleplayer dungeon in Stonefalls is infested with 10+ bots. (Except Hightide Hollow, where the boss takes several minutes to spawn.)
How long will Zenimax swim in their blissful state? Perception is everything for MMOs and right now my perception is, that there are more bots than players in this game.
If I wanted to play with bots, I would have stayed in Skyrim. The Bot-AI's are much better there.
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Noth✭✭✭✭GMs won't actually do that much. THey can make bots as fast as ZOS can ban them, even with GMs.0
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crush83✭✭✭✭GMs won't actually do that much. THey can make bots as fast as ZOS can ban them, even with GMs.
The bot "manufacturers" have an exhaustable resource in that they have to pay for the accounts.
Maybe they are using stolen credit cards, or hacked accounts, or paying them as an investment in gold selling returns.
Anyway you look at it, this is an exhaustable resource. One which they will eventually exhaust if they are continuously banned.
At some point cost-benefit analysis will dictate that it is no longer profitable to spin up new accounts just to get banned before any real revenue can be made.Edited by crush83 on April 22, 2014 9:21PM1 -
Saerydoth✭✭✭✭I think the reason they are still in the public dungeons is because they haven't yet caught on to the timer. Give it a day or so. We were JUST informed of the change about 30 minutes ago. Right now, the botters probably noticed their gold/loot gains just fell through the floor and are trying to figure out what to do next. Until they do, they will probably keep them on "autopilot".1 -
crush83✭✭✭✭I think the reason they are still in the public dungeons is because they haven't yet caught on to the timer. Give it a day or so. We were JUST informed of the change about 30 minutes ago. Right now, the botters probably noticed their gold/loot gains just fell through the floor and are trying to figure out what to do next. Until they do, they will probably keep them on "autopilot".
Unless the timer isn't aggressive enough.0 -
Noth✭✭✭✭GMs won't actually do that much. THey can make bots as fast as ZOS can ban them, even with GMs.
The bot "manufacturers" have an exhaustable resource in that they have to pay for the accounts.
Maybe they are using stolen credit cards, or hacked accounts, or paying them as an investment in gold selling returns.
Anyway you look at it, this is an exhaustable resource. One which they will eventually exhaust if they are continuously banned.
At some point cost-benefit analysis will dictate that it is no longer profitable to spin up new accounts just to get banned before any real revenue can be made.
Hate to tell you this, but after years of heavy handed banning in other games, no bot "manufacturers" have ever ran out of resources. I don't think you realize how easy it is to get their hands on stolen stuff because of the stupidity of people on the internet1 -
Saerydoth✭✭✭✭I think the reason they are still in the public dungeons is because they haven't yet caught on to the timer. Give it a day or so. We were JUST informed of the change about 30 minutes ago. Right now, the botters probably noticed their gold/loot gains just fell through the floor and are trying to figure out what to do next. Until they do, they will probably keep them on "autopilot".
Unless the timer isn't aggressive enough.
If it's not aggressive enough, adjusting it is a simple matter compared to implementing it in the first place. I imagine it could be done with a hotfix.0 -
Another one of these threads? Ok.
Edited by Koltiros1005b14a_ESO on April 22, 2014 9:24PM|----Cometh' at me bro'eth.--- Aldmeri Dominion NA, Veteran,----|
| -~Bug reporter extraordinaire-~|1 -
crush83✭✭✭✭I think the reason they are still in the public dungeons is because they haven't yet caught on to the timer. Give it a day or so. We were JUST informed of the change about 30 minutes ago. Right now, the botters probably noticed their gold/loot gains just fell through the floor and are trying to figure out what to do next. Until they do, they will probably keep them on "autopilot".
Unless the timer isn't aggressive enough.
If it's not aggressive enough, adjusting it is a simple matter compared to implementing it in the first place. I imagine it could be done with a hotfix.
Agreed. It just might take a bit of tweaking to get it to the right place.
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Eris✭✭✭✭
No, it works like this.
Bot company uses stolen credit card to create account. Bot / Gold Sell / Etc for a short period before being banned. Go back to create new account.
On the other side, person with stolen credit card sees charges on the card and says, hey that wasn't me and cancels the transaction. It doesn't matter to the gold farmer/botter because they only used that account for like 20-30 minutes anyways and likely the person won't see the charge until they get their statement which could be days or weeks.Side effects of reading messages on forums can cause nausea, head aches, spontaneous fits of rage, urination due to intense laughter, and sometimes the death of your monitor or other object in throwing range. If you find that you are reading forums more than 24 hours a day, please consult your nearest temporal physicist.1 -
crush83✭✭✭✭GMs won't actually do that much. THey can make bots as fast as ZOS can ban them, even with GMs.
The bot "manufacturers" have an exhaustable resource in that they have to pay for the accounts.
Maybe they are using stolen credit cards, or hacked accounts, or paying them as an investment in gold selling returns.
Anyway you look at it, this is an exhaustable resource. One which they will eventually exhaust if they are continuously banned.
At some point cost-benefit analysis will dictate that it is no longer profitable to spin up new accounts just to get banned before any real revenue can be made.
Hate to tell you this, but after years of heavy handed banning in other games, no bot "manufacturers" have ever ran out of resources. I don't think you realize how easy it is to get their hands on stolen stuff because of the stupidity of people on the internet
You really think that botters will expose their stolen credit cards if they are making no profit from the transaction. If the bots are being banned before they can return on the investment.
$60 for an account. 50K is going for like $10. So, $60 / $10 = 6 * 50K = 300K gold each bot would need to make in order to return on their investment.
If they are making substantially less than this, the cost-benefit of exposing that stolen credit card becomes too costly.
The point is there are much, much more profitable ventures out there for using a stolen credit card than making what, maybe 20K per credit card before being banned?Edited by crush83 on April 22, 2014 9:31PM0 -
Noth✭✭✭✭GMs won't actually do that much. THey can make bots as fast as ZOS can ban them, even with GMs.
The bot "manufacturers" have an exhaustable resource in that they have to pay for the accounts.
Maybe they are using stolen credit cards, or hacked accounts, or paying them as an investment in gold selling returns.
Anyway you look at it, this is an exhaustable resource. One which they will eventually exhaust if they are continuously banned.
At some point cost-benefit analysis will dictate that it is no longer profitable to spin up new accounts just to get banned before any real revenue can be made.
Hate to tell you this, but after years of heavy handed banning in other games, no bot "manufacturers" have ever ran out of resources. I don't think you realize how easy it is to get their hands on stolen stuff because of the stupidity of people on the internet
You really think that botters will expose their stolen credit cards if they are making no profit from the transaction. If the bots are being banned before they can return on the investment.
$60 for an account. 50K is going for like $10. So, $60 / $10 = 6 * 50K = 300K gold each bot would need to make in order to return on their investment.
If they are making substantially less than this, the cost-benefit of exposing that stolen credit card becomes too costly.
Again, no game is this successful against bots. If they were you wouldn't see so many gold selling sites. Seriously, go look around the net pretty much every game has gold for sale from bots. Again though, cost does not matter because the cards are stolen and accounts are stolen. It doesn't cost much to steal these things. They get many many accounts out of each credit card that is stolen at 0 cost to them.
Why does this forum have such an unrealistic view how to stop bots and how easy it is, when no game has stopped bots.Edited by Noth on April 22, 2014 9:35PM0 -
crush83✭✭✭✭Why does this forum have such an unrealistic view how to stop bots and how easy it is, when no game has stopped bots.
Many games don't have bots, but have manual gold farmers in a sweat shop farming gold by hand. In other games, bots are restricted heavily by server side validation to basically operate like any regular player would operate anyways.
So yes, you're right. Bots won't be completely eradicated.
However, they can be severely gimped. Right now, ZOS is basically handing bots the keys to the castle. The very fact that bots can teleport is clear indication that ZOS is missing even the most basic server side validation.
You are also extremely over-exaggerating the rate at which credit cards are being compromised.
If you have a stolen credit card, and you have the choice to buy- Product A for $500
- Product B for $60
Which are you buying?Edited by crush83 on April 22, 2014 9:43PM0 -
Noth✭✭✭✭Why does this forum have such an unrealistic view how to stop bots and how easy it is, when no game has stopped bots.
Many games don't have bots, but have manual gold farmers in a sweat shop farming gold by hand. In other games, bots are restricted heavily by client side validation to basically operate like any regular player would operate anyways.
So yes, you're right. Bots won't be completely eradicated.
However, they can be severely gimped. Right now, ZOS is basically handing bots the keys to the castle. The very fact that bots can teleport is clear indication that ZOS is missing even the most basic server side validation.
No, all games have bots. Often those sweatshop gold farmers are manning many many bots and are simply there if the bot gets stuck or to respond in an attempt to prevent banning. Further there are even bots that can play better than some players.
This game will get better with handling of bots as all games did. Every game I've ever played at launch (every major MMO for the last decade) had some pretty bad bot issues even way after launch. This game isn't even a month old and people are condemning it without giving it a chance to actually work towards a fix that all MMOs have to do.
Also it's not client side validation that stops bots. That stops things like teleporting and speed hacks. It is an entirely different system that looks for bots, and each one is different.
In a bot farm, I'd purchase 10 60 dollar purchases to get 10 accounts for pretty much nothing. Also you really underestimate how easy it can be to get credit card numbers. Heck for the last 2 years you could easily get such things without leaving a trace by a simple bug in sshEdited by Noth on April 22, 2014 9:47PM0 -
crush83✭✭✭✭[Also it's not client side validation that stops bots. That stops things like teleporting and speed hacks. It is an entirely different system that looks for bots, and each one is different.
In a bot farm, I'd purchase 10 60 dollar purchases to get 10 accounts for pretty much nothing. Also you really underestimate how easy it can be to get credit card numbers. Heck for the last 2 years you could easily get such things without leaving a trace by a simple bug in ssh
No, client side validation stops absolutely nothing. Server side validation stops teleporting and speed hacks. Botting gets much less productive when teleporting is stopped. Unfortunately, teleporting exists right now because ZOS seemingly isn't checking server side like they should be.
Detecting bots is done by analyzing a history of patterns. The history of actions required for analysis is offloaded to a secondary analytical server which processes this information without straining the game server.
Most stolen credit cards are not used in the gold farming domain. There are much bigger fish out there for credit card fraud.
Are there millions of stolen credit cards in cyberspace? Absolutely. Are they all tapped by gold farmers? Absolutely not.0 -
Noth✭✭✭✭[Also it's not client side validation that stops bots. That stops things like teleporting and speed hacks. It is an entirely different system that looks for bots, and each one is different.
In a bot farm, I'd purchase 10 60 dollar purchases to get 10 accounts for pretty much nothing. Also you really underestimate how easy it can be to get credit card numbers. Heck for the last 2 years you could easily get such things without leaving a trace by a simple bug in ssh
No, client side validation stops absolutely nothing. Server side validation stops teleporting and speed hacks. Botting gets much less productive when teleporting is stopped. Unfortunately, teleporting exists right now because ZOS seemingly isn't checking server side like they should be.
Detecting bots is done by analyzing a history of patterns. The history of actions required for analysis is offloaded to a secondary analytical server which processes this information without straining the game server.
Most stolen credit cards are not used in the gold farming domain. There are much bigger fish out there for credit card fraud.
Are there millions of stolen credit cards in cyberspace? Absolutely. Are they all tapped by gold farmers? Absolutely not.
I meant servside.
I never said all credit card were used for gold farmers. I'm simply saying that it is easier to get and you can get a lot out of them.
Again, nothing you can do will actually stop bots and this game is no different than others when they came out. GMs do little in stopping bots, the analyzing of history patterns that stops most of them, however designing that algorithm takes time in a new game. Damning the game before it is a month old for a problem that often takes longer than a month for all MMO to remotely solve is idiotic and unrealistic.0 -
crush83✭✭✭✭I never said all credit card were used for gold farmers. I'm simply saying that it is easier to get and you can get a lot out of them.
Again, nothing you can do will actually stop bots and this game is no different than others when they came out. GMs do little in stopping bots, the analyzing of history patterns that stops most of them, however designing that algorithm takes time in a new game. Damning the game before it is a month old for a problem that often takes longer than a month for all MMO to remotely solve is idiotic and unrealistic.
What you seem to not get is cost-benefit analysis. This is simple economics. If a more profitable opportunity exists for using those credit cards, the cards will be used for that opportunity.
That means that all ZoS has to do is make it so that there is a negative cost-benefit analysis in buying accounts with those credit cards. That means adjusting mechanics to limit gold intake by bots. Things like diminishing returns on boss loot, or banning the bots before they can make a reasonable return on investment.
For example, at some point, using those cards to buy accounts isn't as profitable as, say, selling the credit cards to someone else who'd use them for something else that is more profitable.
Yes, I've agreed with you (to a degree). Stopping bots completely is pretty much impossible from a technical standpoint. That's why your game mechanics have to render botting/gold selling not worth the cost.
The other thing is this:
Yes, this is Zenimax's first MMO, but the developers they've hired are almost certainly not new to the industry. There is no reason they couldn't have seen this coming. There is no reason that they neglected industry knowledge learned through these experiences at other MMOs.
If they indeed did not take advantage of the voluminous knowledge that has been obtained over the 20 years of MMORPG development, then they are fools.Edited by crush83 on April 22, 2014 10:03PM0 -
Noth✭✭✭✭I never said all credit card were used for gold farmers. I'm simply saying that it is easier to get and you can get a lot out of them.
Again, nothing you can do will actually stop bots and this game is no different than others when they came out. GMs do little in stopping bots, the analyzing of history patterns that stops most of them, however designing that algorithm takes time in a new game. Damning the game before it is a month old for a problem that often takes longer than a month for all MMO to remotely solve is idiotic and unrealistic.
What you seem to not get is cost-benefit analysis. This is simple economics. If a more profitable opportunity exists for using those credit cards, the cards will be used for that opportunity.
That means that all ZoS has to do is make it so that there is a negative cost-benefit analysis in buying accounts with those credit cards. That means adjusting mechanics to limit gold intake by bots. Things like diminishing returns on boss loot, or banning the bots before they can make a reasonable return on investment.
For example, at some point, using those cards to buy accounts isn't as profitable as, say, selling the credit cards to someone else who'd use them for something else that is more profitable.
Yes, I've agreed with you (to a degree). Stopping bots completely is pretty much impossible from a technical standpoint. That's why your game mechanics have to render botting/gold selling not worth the cost.
The other thing is this:
Yes, this is Zenimax's first MMO, but the developers they've hired are almost certainly not new to the industry. There is no reason they couldn't have seen this coming. There is no reason that they neglected industry knowledge learned through these experiences at other MMOs.
If they indeed did not take advantage of the voluminous knowledge that has been obtained over the 20 years of MMORPG development, then they are fools.
They'd have to ban so fast to make it not profitable. Again all games have bots, and in all games those bots are profitable. What you are wanting them to do is pretty much impossible. Even games where gold is pretty much worthless (most mmos these days), bot farming is still profitable to gold farmers.
Again though, my main point is that it takes time to put measures in place to stop bots. Every game despite previous knowledge by devs has taken a month or more to remotely stem bots (some only stemmed them because of player drop off)
Demanding it now and expecting it now is idiotic when it takes time to do such things.
Also in software, we've 'known' how to fix issues with speed of development of code and infrastructure, but it is unrealistic in the real world.
Edited by Noth on April 22, 2014 10:09PM0 -
NaishoSoul Shriven
Yes, now there are TRAINS of bots in the dungeons that goes in circles wiping everything, not just boss. Just seen this picture in Ondil today.I think the reason they are still in the public dungeons is because they haven't yet caught on to the timer. Give it a day or so.
We were JUST informed of the change about 30 minutes ago. Right now, the botters probably noticed their gold/loot gains just fell through the floor and are trying to figure out what to do next. Until they do, they will probably keep them on "autopilot".
They are like "we could care less that it's not legal in this game - not giving a crap"
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Noth✭✭✭✭
Yes, now there are TRAINS of bots in the dungeons that goes in circles wiping everything, not just boss. Just seen this picture in Ondil today.I think the reason they are still in the public dungeons is because they haven't yet caught on to the timer. Give it a day or so.
We were JUST informed of the change about 30 minutes ago. Right now, the botters probably noticed their gold/loot gains just fell through the floor and are trying to figure out what to do next. Until they do, they will probably keep them on "autopilot".
They are like "we could care less that it's not legal in this game - not giving a crap"
So just like any gold/bot farmer in any game ever?
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crush83✭✭✭✭They'd have to ban so fast to make it not profitable. Again all games have bots, and in all games those bots are profitable. What you are wanting them to do is pretty much impossible. Even games where gold is pretty much worthless (most mmos these days), bot farming is still profitable to gold farmers.
Don't forget that new bots have to level their character up before it can begin farming, so it's not an immediate process. They don't simply create a new account and get right back to farming. If a GM were to, say, ban them before they reached level 20, they'd be making substantially less gold than if they get banned at level 40.Again though, my main point is that it takes time to put measures in place to stop bots. Every game despite previous knowledge by devs has taken a month or more to remotely stem bots (some only stemmed them because of player drop off)
Demanding it now and expecting it now is idiotic.
I can agree to all of this. I think that a good bit of knowledge carries over from other experiences building MMOs. I've been on the server architecture and implementation side of a couple now myself. You still have to tailor that knowledge to fit the current implementation. I especially agree that demanding it now is ridiculous, though, I do think there should be some GM enforcement in-game. It won't get rid of them all, but it will get rid of enough to make the game playable for now.
Anyways, it's way past 5, time for me to get out of the office and enjoy the afternoon. I wish the same to you. Good talk.Edited by crush83 on April 22, 2014 10:13PM0 -
Locke_ESO✭✭✭I cant even get a GM to fix my main VR6 character after 4 days of it being unplayable due to it being stuck with a permanent damage over time effect from a bugged quest ("Walk in the Clouds") so good luck getting them to do anything.Edited by Locke_ESO on April 22, 2014 10:14PM1 -
crush83✭✭✭✭
Yes, now there are TRAINS of bots in the dungeons that goes in circles wiping everything, not just boss. Just seen this picture in Ondil today.I think the reason they are still in the public dungeons is because they haven't yet caught on to the timer. Give it a day or so.
We were JUST informed of the change about 30 minutes ago. Right now, the botters probably noticed their gold/loot gains just fell through the floor and are trying to figure out what to do next. Until they do, they will probably keep them on "autopilot".
They are like "we could care less that it's not legal in this game - not giving a crap"
How is that different than something any player could do though? I mean, boss farming is something any player can do as well, but bosses are simply too effective at it to the point that other people weren't getting a chance to participate. If bots are clearly dungeon trash quick enough that players aren't able to participate in it, then there clearly isn't enough content in the dungeon to begin with.0 -
Drakonklenok✭✭✭Yeah I get the gold sellers and boss bots and grind bots in the low level zones, but there is 0 excuse for them to be in coldharbour, or even the two zones before that (maybe a miniscule amount, but they are just as bad there as they are anywhere else). An in-game GM would help to at least curtail this. Gold sellers and bots will never ever go away completely, but if you can keep them out of the higher level zones, that would at least keep people moderately happy.
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They can keep people moderately happy by daily listing 20-30 accounts was banned. Even if it'll be a fake)))0
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Kyotee0071✭✭✭Koltiros1005b14a_ESO wrote: »Another one of these threads? Ok.
Yeah because this isn't a serious Issue :
Keep watching. He shows the bots Port hacking as well
Edited by Kyotee0071 on April 22, 2014 11:17PMI didn't think my hangover was that bad this morning until I spent 10 minutes trying to log into my old Etch-A-Sketch0 -
Noth✭✭✭✭Kyotee0071 wrote: »Koltiros1005b14a_ESO wrote: »Another one of these threads? Ok.
Yeah because this isn't a serious Issue :
That quote isn't saying it isn't serious. It's more of having enough of repeated threads that won't fix the issue any faster.
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Kyotee0071✭✭✭Sometimes the Squeaky Wheel gets the grease. The more threads, the more the devs might actually notice this MAJOR issue.
Bots, exploits, cheats, and hacks should not last in a MMORPG for any length of time. I think we need more postI didn't think my hangover was that bad this morning until I spent 10 minutes trying to log into my old Etch-A-Sketch1 -
Noth✭✭✭✭Kyotee0071 wrote: »Sometimes the Squeaky Wheel gets the grease. The more threads, the more the devs might actually notice this MAJOR issue.
Bots, exploits, cheats, and hacks should not last in a MMORPG for any length of time. I think we need more post
I guarantee you they know about it and are working on it. Fixes take time. very few MMOs fixed their bot problems in under a month and many left hacks in for months and even years. Things take time. Constantly complaining and reposting something that already has a tone of thread about it does not magically speed up time or make people work faster.0 -
Drakonklenok✭✭✭Kyotee0071 wrote: »Sometimes the Squeaky Wheel gets the grease. The more threads, the more the devs might actually notice this MAJOR issue.
Bots, exploits, cheats, and hacks should not last in a MMORPG for any length of time. I think we need more post
I guarantee you they know about it and are working on it. Fixes take time. very few MMOs fixed their bot problems in under a month and many left hacks in for months and even years. Things take time. Constantly complaining and reposting something that already has a tone of thread about it does not magically speed up time or make people work faster.
Having the Devs actually communicate with us would stop a string of repeat threads...
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