Some observations on the sorcerer: the potential game-changer that is unwanted in Sanctum raids

Joy_Division

I think sorcerers have been in a bad place for the past 4 or 5 months and have become a niche class that 1.6 will not address. Sorcs shine in specific situations but are generally poor performers vis-a-vis the other classes.

Unfortunately, because the game has so many different aspects, our perceptions are not the same and ZoS has received what can only be described a schizophrenic feedback and I believe that is why ZoS is unaware just how much of a niche class sorcs have become in the eyes of specific, albeit important, segments of the ESO community.

There is no tl;dr version. Mostly because the tl;dr versions have failed to communicate specifically and lucidly to ZoS their message for months. This is not meant to be a statement of Truth, rather a collection of observations that hope to illuminate why a number of sorcerer players are frustrated and feel their class is in a bad place. I have played a Templar, DK, and a Sorcerer in every arena the game has to offer and have done them with PuGs and the best known guilds alike.

I PvP and PvE. In Cyrodiil, my sorcerer is a legitimate contributor to any group I am in because Negate is (was) the most powerful skill in the game and the Endless Fury proc is extremely efficient at eliminating low health targets. I am annoyed that my only self heal (crit surge) is all but worthless and I have to slot a restoration staff, but I can accept this because I have the power of a god and can determine the fate of battles at a single button. If asked for my opinion of the class excluding Negate, I would say it is at best functional: it is decent at not dying and the burst combo of curse-crystal frag-endless fury is pretty good, but that is about as far as I'd go.

In PvE I am (now) *very* self conscious at the class's low sustained (magicka) DPS relative to the other DPS archetypes, specifically stamina nightblades and magicka DKs, which I believe is the fundamental problem that plagues this class. When I raided in August, my sorc DPS was actually not much different than my DK. But the game has changed. Stamina builds were buffed, new gear was introduced, and theorycrafters began to unlock the potential that DKs had through Flames of Oblivion. I'm still using the same boring Crushing Shock rotation. A stamina build can snipe the last boss in CoA from relative safety and completely blow away my DPS to the extent I am ashamed to post it (so I don't). My DK, using Flames of Oblivion for the first time and butchering the rotation, was able to get 1.2k vs. the Serpent in Sanctum Ophidia (now I usually get 1.4k-1.5k). I am sometimes invited to raid with a GM whose goal is to get the world's best time in Sanctum and I'm pretty sure he has spent every night for the past 3 months in that Trial. I *never* see any sorcerers in his competitive raid groups. Never. This is not hyperbole, but indicative of the reality that sorcerers are bad at sustained (magicka) DPS and offer no utility to a group when their Negate is not needed.

But again, this is about perception. How many subscribers to this game are the serious sort of hardcore raider as my GM? 5%? 10% at most? So for more than 90% of the customers of the game, the sorcerer "works" even if it is not as good as the other classes. I know the game's content can be completed just fine with a sorcerer. I was in a group that completed Veteran DSA with NO deaths and had a time that was in the top ten on the North American server. So it is very possible that ZoS either gets conflicting feedback about sorcerers because 90% of the customers write in /feedback that the sorcerer is fun to play and completes content just fine - and this does not even include the /feedback ZoS gets from PvPers who value the class very highly. People like me who communicate our dissatisfaction about the class may very well be in the minority.

And that schizophrenic feedback continues in 1.6. Many people who have dueled on the PTS have indicated that sorcerers are very formidable opponents in PvP even without considering Negate's impact. This is probably true: because as poor as the class performs in a Live 1.5 SO raid, as I indicated before, the class has decent survivability skills and a dangerous burst damage combination, both of these aspects of the class have been improved and shine in small scale PvP. Also those people who enjoy "pets" have undoubtedly been getting better results from their build and communicating that. And then there are the people like me who want to be invited to a competitive Sanctum raid who still have not found a solution to the class's fundamental problem: sustained magicka DPS that is not reliant on pets or ultimates.

In short, I can see why ZoS is unaware of the specific problem sorcs have and to be honest we have nobody to blame but ourselves. Every thread and rage post made saying that ZoS "hates" sorcs because of the crushing shock nerf contributes to the confusion and the problem. And no offense to my fellow frustrated sorcerers, are you DAFT? Even if "your" crushing shock skill is *buffed* the problem will still remain because DKs, Templars, and NBs also use "your" skill. Thus sorcerer DPS will still be relatively poor and you still won't get invited to end game raids.

In the past few weeks, some Devs have hopped into feedback sessions sponsored by two guilds I am in and I came away with the impression that they honestly were not aware that the sorcerer was a relatively poor performer in end-game raids. In each session I was in, I felt the frustrations were communicated to the developers, but when asked to specifically lay out the problems and why the proposed changes in 1.6 would not allay these concerns, we were not up to the task. It was mostly vague disappointment that would neither outweigh the positive feedback they have received nor alter the reality that many sorc skills have in fact been buffed. So, I will attempt to do just that.

I will say I "dabble" in theorycrafting as opposed to actually seriously doing it so I'm not going to pretend to be as knowledgeable about certain aspects of the game as others. I will also say I am probably a B+ player in PvP and PvE; I am very much aware that although I am decent and versatile player, those who specialize in specific content are probably going to amend / supplement what I have to offer and I would encourage them to do so. In short, although I am not the best judge in specific matters, I can offer fairly decent observations from both a PvP and PvE aspect as I have relatively decent success in both aspects of the game.

One of the comments that struck me the most during one of these guild meeting was the developers' response to the complaint that the sorcerer had no DoTs: velocious curse is the class's DoT, it just happens that rather than the damage ticking, it explodes all at once. There are a number of problems with this logic. Every DoT tick is advantageous to the player, for 10 months classes with normal DoTs were gaining ultimate, generating procs, etc., whereas the sorc was not. Plus, by putting all our eggs in the proverbial single basket, we ran the risk of getting no damage whatsoever if the target died or had the effect cleansed. And this does not even consider the unnecessary restriction of having one curse; my DK is not restricted to one unstable flame. With all the disadvantages associated with the sorc's "DoT," that better hit like a truck when it does trigger. It did not and still does not (although they have increased the damage).

• My DK on the PTS spends 938 magicka to do 1806 damage immediately and 548 damage every second for 10.5 seconds.
• My Sorc on the PTS spend 1952 magicka to do 4507 damage in 3.5 seconds.
• From a strictly DPS standpoint, the sorc is marginally better after 3.5 seconds but gets no procs, can have the damage nullified, and spent twice as much magicka to achieve that...meanwhile the DK will get more 7 seconds more "free" procs.

I am fine with DKs having clear cut superior DoTs. That is their thing. But this is just bad. DoTs are supposed to be cheap to cast and contribute to sustained DPS. Curse is not cheap and the DPS it delivers is too low to compete with everyone's favorite spam spell: crushing shock. Curse fall between two stools: it is masquerading as a DoT but has the cost and damage as a single target spell and winds up failing at both. It is useful, as opposed to "good," vs DKs and their reflect spam, but that is its only redeeming feature.

Suggestion: if it going to be our DoT, make the cost commensurate with other DoTs and give sorcs token damage ticks so as the spirit of the spell remains. If it is going to be a "burst spell," I'd still say give token damage ticks and make the explosion pay so it's damage is worthy of the high cost of the spell and that the chasm that exists between the sustained DPS of it and the Crushing Shock spam is lessened.

From my experience, the sorcerer has a lot of inefficient skills that are undesirable in light of alternatives from other lines. Daedric mines are supposed to serve as area denial. Fair enough. But they fail at this purpose and IMHO are strictly worse than volcanic rune. I have dropped mines in Cyrodiil and have often seen players intentionally GO THROUGH THEM. On DSA, you know how the mage boss drops mines...I ignore them too! I stay right in her face and simply continuing DPS. This spell is *very* expensive, the deterrent is nonexistent because the damage is too low and the immobilization too weak/short, and the sorc is sometimes required to expose herself to the enemy to place these where the need to go. Volcanic rune is a much more versatile spell.

What frustrates sorcerers is that rather than tweak these bad spells is ZoS makes them worse. I read in the patch notes that if a boss triggered one of these mines it would gain immunity to the others. Wut? Is there some fear that a sorcerer who wasted one of her precious slots with this awkward spell *might* actually get efficient damage-to-magicka ratio *if* she somehow happened to place them where a boss moved...or worked in tandem with the tank so the boss ran over the mines? What is wrong with this? And why are we throwing immersion out the window for this highly dubious decision?

Two other spells that are poor performers are encase and dark exchange. I will grant that encase covers a larger area than dark talons, but it was much more expensive and does no damage whatsoever. Just have the DK talon stuff...especially since people fear what the DK will do next (standard, whip, DK stuff, etc.). I remember watching a developer preview video where they were fighting a Dolmen. At some point, the spell Dark Exchange was acknowledged as potentially decisive because it gave the sorcerers an excellent means of resource recovery. I am going to assume that was the spell's intention. The problem is that the sorcs with the best DPS don't use Dark Exchange, they instead use spell symmetry from the Mage's Guild. This problem is two-fold; not only does the spell fail at its intent but also what has meant to be an exclusive advantage for a sorcerer is available to EVERYONE. In general I am not a fan of how easily anyone can with the press of a button circumvent the idea of spell costs and remove light / heavy attacks from the game, but that is a discussion for another time. If everyone can trivialize resource recovery, then at least sorcs should do it better if they are going to have a skill in their class line taking up space to do just this.

With so many inefficient skills clogging up our class line, sorcerers are forced to go elsewhere, which is no doubt why many sorcerers believe crushing shock is "theirs." This leads into what is perhaps the most controversial aspect of the class: pets. IMHO, it was a mistake to make them toggles. Or at least make ALL the pets toggles. It has already been pointed out that a "pet" build will only have a few free slots and that once again means Crushing Shock (take note: reoccurring theme, not matter what sorcs use this darn spell!), so I won't rehash it. On a developer guild talk, it was said that a "pet" build option taking up slots was desirable because some people might prefer not having 10 choices what to do given a certain situation. Although I personally would never see that as preferable, I will agree there are people out there that would enjoy such a set-up and so I'm cool with that as an option.

What I am not really cool with is that is the *only* option. I would have really like to see a fire-and-forget disposable summon ala Skyrim. In that game you could summon something relatively cheap, put it anywhere and just have it do its own thing without babysitting it or it taking up two slots on your bar or other slots to augment it. I *love* the concept of summoners but have not tried it in this game because IMHO the opportunity cost was too high and I was not enamored with summoning just lesser daedra (and a little miffed there was no necromancy option, although I do contend how the main story might make that avenue problematic). So now at least from what I hear the "pet" build can pull respectable DPS and while I am happy for those people who enjoy the ESO method of doing pets, it leaves me and others like me in an uncomfortable position: we feel tugged playing in a way that we personally do not enjoy, which goes against the whole mantra of play how you want to play. Give me summons that are interesting and based on a timer rather than a toggle and I'll try this route, but I have no desire to devote so many resources to a clannfear.

Joy_Division

****Continued****

Does 1.6 changes the landscape as far as sorcerers are concerned? I acknowledge that some problems have been addressed. The "instant" cast for Crystal shards is actually now instant. Encase's cost now is somewhat reasonable. The Storm Atronach ultimate seems to be useful. That being said, I still think the base problems of sustained magicka DPS and relatively poor performing spells exist. Mines are still bad and actually worse. Sorcs will still use spell symmetry rather than Dark Exchange. Sorcs can still only cast one curse and the non-pet version does not meaningfully contribute to DPS as other DoTs do. And then there is Critical Surge. What a mess there. From a magicka perspective, this spell now seems strictly worse than the Mage's Guild Entropy which is much cheaper to cast, gives the same essential buff, is an actual DoT sorcs lack, and does provide health benefits. So yet another sorc tool not quite as sharp as something available to all the other classes. I personally would have redesigned the skill so it gives sorcs a unique damage / health bonus that other classes CANNOT get...my instinct would have been to boost light / heavy attacks (probably make heavy attacks create an explosion since they are a huge DPS loss and it fits the mythical theme of a sorcerer channeling magic she cannot control), but instead ZoS went with something generic. As much as things change, they tend to still be the same.

It is easier to criticize than be correct, and I have done a lot of the former without offering suggestions on how to fix the problems I have laid out. I do think balancing the sorc is the hardest of the 4 classes because it is a niche performer; if we simply boost their performance in generic settings, we risk unleashing a juggernaut in scenarios where the sorc is already strong candidate: specifically, boosting non-pet DPS will unintentionally raise pet DPS and there are already palpable frustrations about shielded sorcs in PvP (although I feel the PvP concern is as yet unproven and a consequence of small scale engagements that have dominated the PTS, a setting where defensive shields are paramount and I'd argue broken in 1.5). And nobody yet knows exactly where magicka based not Pet DPS is in 1.6 yet, although I think we can agree that it is somewhere behind the other DPS archtypes ESO offers. That being said, there are some steps I think most of the ESO community can agree are reasonable and easy to implement that would help alleviate the frustrations of sorc players:

All of the inefficient skills that plague, pollute, enfeeble, enervate, dilute and despoil that class need to no longer infect the class and ruin the class's diversity. As it is, each class has only 15 skills that distinguish them from the others so every stinker is a large opportunity cost. Specifically:

• Daedric Mines: This spell costs way too much, is not a sufficient deterrent, is only useful in specific situations, and there is no reason, balance or verisimilitude, for opponents to gain immunity after triggering one. Something else to consider as this spell is easily avoided, any complaints by players as to this spell's power would ring *really* hollow. If I am going to waste - and I use that word intentionally - a slot on this spell, it had better make a legitimate contribution in the rare case it might get used such as a castle breech.
• Dark Conversion: Spell Symmetry is more appealing because a DPS can get their magicka faster and can easily circumvent the healing penalty. It is also more versatile because I get to choose how many resources to get back, it makes the next spell cheaper to cast, and has very good passives associated with the Mage's Guild. The magicka return for Dark Conversion simply needs to be faster than Spell Symmetry to even begin to make it a legitimate alternative. And as mentioned before, if sorcs are going to have one of their precious 15 skills associated with resource recovery, it needs to be unequivocally better than the other classes.
• Velocious Curse: I won't comment on the Pet version, but the non-pet version needs to stop masquerading as a direct damage spell or at least do damage efficiently. Since ZoS envisions this as the sorcerer's DoT spell, I would lower the cost of the spell to bring it in line with the excellent damage to magicka ratios of the other DoTs in the game. And I would add a token tick. Alternatively we can keep the high cost for a commensurate increase in its damage.
• Bound Armor: this spell is so unappealing I never even bothered to unlock it. A toggle, redundant with Lightning Form, and pales in comparison to the DK armor skill makes Bound Armor so bad sorcerers would be better off without it - whatever ZoS came up to replace it couldn't possibly be worse. Suggestion: Drop this skill and replace it with a greater daedra summon that is based on a timer rather than a toggle.
• Lightning Flood: this is the sorcerer's only class based AoE and I do like the design of the skill. I think it is good Vs. stationary targets and if players activate the synergy. Again a niche performer. I would probably add an aftereffect to opponents that leave the area and slightly increase its damage so as to not make its effectiveness reliant on the synergy. EDIT: I do believe the extended duration of this spell in 1.63 was a good enough alteration so that it is no longer bad / inefficient.
• Surge: See above. I think this skill should offer the Sorcerer a unique bonus not accessible by another class (like the original version!). So ditch the Entropy duplicate. Conjured weapons is a Elder Scrolls theme and having the spell augment the caster's weapon so its light / heavy attacks are augmented (and return health or at least the chance). And I still think a heavy attack exploding in a power surge would be really cool...

The other (non-pet) sorc skills in my eyes are fine in 1.6 (although I still think that an opponent with a gap-closer trumping bolt escape defeats the purpose of the spell). These tweaks would really help make the sorcerers a more flexible and less of a niche class. Also it would be nice for once to think, "I'd really like to slot Daedric Mines but I've got so many interesting options, I'm not sure what to do."

As for DPS, a more efficient Dark Exchange, a non-redundant Surge, and a legitimate Velocious Curse would at least help the fundamental problem sorcs have had for a while now: they just want a leaderboard conscious guildmaster to open her doors for a non-pet Sorc DPS. I know 1.6 has not even been released yet so we still don't know all the implications and theorycrafters have just begun to scratch the surface.

That being said, I am wary of what lays in store. I haven't had time to really delve into the PTS, but what I have seen portends that the 1.5 problem of non-pet magicka based DPS still exists. I put together these three examples as a rudimentary baselines. And that's all they are: it's just three archetypical types of DPS in the most basic gear (seducer's) meant to illustrate given similar "casual" environment, the magicka-based sorc is still lacking. Each of these three characters have the same basic layout:

• 40 attribute points in relevant stat (magicka / stamina)
• The same 90 relevant champion points (I chose 90 to get the 12% critical chance...I'd imagine many VR14s first 20 CPs are going to be devoted to attainting that Champion perk).
• A basic rotation without using potions, ultimates, stealth, heavy attack openers, or anything else that might inflate a baseline sustained DPS
• These are NOT meant to be min /maxed or theory crafted in any way, but what I'd imagine most of us will do: an initial attempt to replicate our 1.5 builds

.

My Dragonknight uses the standard dots of Engulfing Flames and Burning Embers, the ever present Crushing Shock, of course Entropy, the Destructive Reach spell for the DoT, and the "mage light" class feature that is now Flames of Oblivion. I will say I *highly* dislike the ball animation for Flames of Oblivion and find the morph "Sea of Flames" absolutely pointless but that is another discussion for another time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA0bhYIpimI

DKs are now mortals when it comes to DPS because their 1.6K mechanism of destruction has been redesigned. Well it was fun while it lasted. I can get consistent results at about 6.3K. (By way of comparison I got about 9-10K in AA with ultimates, pots, and debuffs).

Here is my Sorceror. I used Critical Surge rather than entropy because I found it difficult on my DK to switch weapons and weave in a light attack before my opening spell that would resulted in a significant DPS loss since these mammoths die so quickly. I use Velocious Curse because a single cast will yield more damage that Crushing Shock (although I have my doubts how sustainable it is in a regular rotation due to its high cost), Destructive Touch because I have a Gold Master weapon that increases its damage and for its actual DoT, Crystal Fragments whenever it proced, "our" Crushing Shock skill, and Endless Fury to execute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi_Cnb4bvH8

Not encouraging! Somewhere in the mid 5ks. I'll accept being lower than DKs because of their DoTs but there is ZERO way that I should be able to equip a two-handed sword and throw on any old medium armor on a *magic* based build (i.e. no attribute points in stamina, all CP points invested in magicka based stuff) and just waltz in there doing comparable DPS - especially since I forgot to even slot Flawless Dawnbreaker or use the Rally skill on that second mammoth...

So I wondered what my sorcerer could pull with that two-hander if I actually built my character for it. I took the "stamina" versions of the "magic" Champion Points and put 40 attribute into stamina. I have never done Stamina DPS so don't know if I should weave heavy or light attacks. I used light because it was easier and went with a rotation of Brawler (for DoT) - spam Wrecking Blow until execute - Executioner. I am also using just 7 pieces or random medium armor so no sets bonuses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVF89ASIzk8

I heard whispers about changing to stamina builds and I'm guessing this is why - and the 8K value does not even consider the additional armor AND spell resistance medium armor provides.

I know the methodology is not perfect and people will invariably point out flaws, things I could have done better, or find some reason to rationalize why these tests are invalid. Go ahead and do so. It doesn't matter. Perception is reality and for a reasonably sized portion of the community, specifically many of those who play DPS sorcerers who would like to use these characters in an SO raid, we have felt *very* self conscious of our DPS in comparisons to mostly stamina NBs and magicka DKs. Your critiques of my methodology will not somehow change the fact that at least a third of the sorcerer's class skills I identified above pale in comparison to similar skills in other lines, are redundant, too inefficient, or just plain bad. If you are going to tell me if I find X armor set, use the Overload ultimate, and stack spellpower like crazy and I'll DPS just fine, I will counter with: why do I have to use X armor when stamina can slap on anything, why am I forced to use a specific ultimate, and why does stacking spellpower help me and not the DK? Why is sorcerer sustained magicka non-pet DPS such a secret?

And you have it backwards. Because 1.5 Sorc DPS was a problem, the ideal approach for 1.6 PTS would have been to make it crystal clear as day and unequivocal that this problem has been addressed or at least acknowledged. The very sort of basic rudimentary test I did is PRECISELY the sort of test that ought to have illustrated this. How many frustrated sorcerer players do you think are going to have the patience to uncover the apparent secret that is sustained magicka DPS or will gracefully accept playing a way they would rather not by donning a two-handed sword or slotting pets? People should be excited for and anticipating the release of 1.6. Many aren't.

The (belabored) point: this analysis has tried to highlight two prevalent themes of magicka based sorcerers that may have been obscured by emotive and often contradictory feedback, but are there: many of their class skills are poor performers that fail to efficiently do the task they are designed for and competitive PvE raiders now ask sorcerer players to log onto their non sorcerer "alts." I will grant these problems may not have been apparent to even the developers for understandable reasons and that it is *possible* to complete all the content in the game with sorcerers. Nevertheless, they do exist.

Whether or not the secret of sustained magicka-based Sorc DPS has been solved one cannot say for sure. However, as of 1.62 the sorcerer class is still plagued by what I believe are objectively undesirable and inefficient spells. With the exception of critical surge (which I believed needs to be redesigned), I can see no reason why these cannot be tweaked to be competitive for a PTS 1.63 patch. And I still think the redundant Bound Armor spell needs to go for the option of a summon not tied to a toggle. Just taking this step alone will make the sorcerer are more versatile and desirable performer and go some way to alleviating that pesky DPS issue.

I understand there is a danger in turning the sorcerer into a potential juggernaut because magicka based DPS can be supplemented to a degree by pets and they can be a strong class in their niche, as many PvP PTS duelers believe. But I think I can speak for many of those sorcerers who feel frustrated that we would like to see conspicuous and unequivocal signals that the situation is improving whereas right now we see omens of portent, which make many us irrational and overly protective of what we do have - witness all the (misguided) cries about the Crushing Shock nerf. We just want to log into the PTS, bring our main on a Sanctum raid, not feel compelled to play a specific way, and not cringe when others post their DPS. That's really all.

Snit

Good post.

Much of it can be (over)simplified to, "Our class abilities don't do enough sustained damage, especially if we don't want to run a bunch of pets." There are at least two changes coming, to Lightning Splash and Expert Mage, that will impact this directly.

We don't know how much of an impact, but there will be one.

Morvul

very good post OP.
@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ , please make sure the Class/Combat Dev-Team sees this.

especially the first post really lays out the current problems sorcerers have with sustained dps, as well as potential pitfalls which could occur when buffing the wrong things...

ThatHappyCat

I think Dark Exchange should be turned into a "buff" instead of a channel: cost a lot of stamina instantly (can't be a stamina drain since you cannot stop it) to restore health and magicka over time. The restore should be slower and last longer for balance. This way it wouldn't impact DPS more than Spell Symmetry and might even give Sorcerers a legitimate self-heal.

I would make Daedric Mines a gtAoE instead of a pbAoE. It doesn't need 28m range, maybe just 15m would be enough. The Tomb morph can remain as it is (maybe be a bit more instant). Minefield would increase the area covered without affecting mine density.

The new Bound Armour isn't redundant with Lightning Form and actually increases your maximum resources, so that might be worth using.

I dislike how players and developers alike seem to see Surge as the Sorc's class heal. That, IMO, is stupid. I'd rather see Dark Exchange turned into a legitimate heal and Surge be given a special effect that isn't as boring. Improving basic attacks would be nice and synergises well with Overload.

angelyn

Extremely good post. This is exactly how I feel. I've tried to provide feedback but it is so frustrating that when you do everyone immediately jumps on you and cries "QQ sorc" or calls you an a*S.

Some players like myself are not experts, but even I can clearly see and feel the problem and I wonder how I will ever do trials like this, because let me tell you I'm struggling in the normal content, never mind the extra hard trials stuff. How will I even have the opportunity to get better if sorcs are at the bottom of every group role pile?

One of the main themes is that sorc skills are so lacking that we rely heavily on skills available to everyone. My 1.5 build only ever used 2-3 of my own class skills. How sad is that? What I found most telling about the latest ESO live, was that the combat team...damn I'm so frustrated by this but, I dont want to type it out again so here is a copy/paste...All I can say is no wonder they don't get why sorcerers are complaining:

angelyn wrote: »

Also one slightly negative final point. I know it is a large corporation and there are multiple teams. However, the lead combat guy(who is designing our pets and pet related skills)had to speak to the team creating bosses, since he did't realise that it is still a problem with bosses targeting pets and certain heals being taken up by pets.

It just seems a little sad, that the guy designing all of our combat skills has not taken all of the factors in combat into consideration, and shockingly even the most basic factor such as how the boss/healings would interact with sorc pets. His advice was to use certain heals to help players and other heals for pets. How many raid leaders will take along a pet sorc if their healer has now 1 more thing to concentrate on and that is the heals-workaround for the pet sorc? They will just drop the sorc since it will make the healer's life a nightmare.

This only leads me to think that the Combat team who design all of our skills, may work in isolation to the other teams (Boss team/End game PVE Team?), testing on single target dummies for PVE and testing within PVP which I mentioned in another thread:

angelyn wrote: »

I have a sneaking suspicion that devs test any balance changes only in PVP or on a single PVE target. Hence why they said in ESO live that pet build was giving massive DPS but "not king of DPS", and why no one considered how sorc dps is supposed to AOE trash mobs with no armour,no AOE skill as no space on bar due to toggles, and no block casting as our stamina drains to 0 in like a few seconds when blocking.

This would also explain why Paul Sage/Chris Strasz said in the recent Q&A that basically some people will always complain, when the subject of sorcerers was raised.Perhaps he's only thinking of how amazing sorcs are in PVP. Also I've yet to hear a dev say that sorc is their favourite class,when I've heard numerous times how much dk is fav class. (I'm not shouting for nerf of other classes). Maybe they just need to roll a sorcerer and see if they can dps an ENTIRE dungeon/trial successfully, with our only viable build-the toggle mancer,that relies on a set that only goes up to VR12,has sturdy on each piece and has just taken a nerf (Necropotence).

Again perhaps a more cohesive approach is needed between the combat team and the other teams since that would certainly help the situation.Or hell- why not go really crazy and get the Boss Team and the Combat Team to run dungeons together to test out any changes :P

So thank you for taking the time to provide rational, logical feedback that the devs can take into consideration. I may have tried, but I doubt I will have been as successful as this post. Perhaps you have helped us finally vocalise the problem and perhaps the devs are willing to listen.:)

o_0

Best post I've read in weeks.

Dracane

Very good points, very good post.
I think it's not enough, to only argue about the cost of abilities like daedric mines or daedric curse. They never bothered me . I'd prefer an ability with higher damage , over an ability with low cost but unreasonable damage.

So they better buff the damage of mines, curse and so on, instead of reducing the cost. This will not help DPS, only help managing ressources and a good player knows, how to manage them (daedric curse is actually very low in cost in my opinion)

But very good post anyway.

ToRelax

Good post.

Yes, many Sorcerer skills are just worse than skills available to everyone.

And the most important is our instant damage ability, wich is worse than Crushing Shock. Wait, we don't even have one :disagree: . Well, with a Curse and maybe a DoT sometimes we can not even make use of Crystal Shards.

So please, ZOS, maybe replace one of our more useless abilities with an instant damage ability? That alone would help the Sorcerer a lot already.

I am not sure what gives stamina builds so much higher dps than magicka builds in 1.6 though (if that will be true after some weeks at all). Not only regarding 2 hand, that just seems necessary for Rally. Dualwield does high damage, too, Bow in 1.6 i don't know about.

Nihil

It was a really nice read and well thought out. One thing I would like to point out for velicious curse. I can see how this skill could be considered our dot. The damage of it is compariable to the range dot that i compared it too (desteuction touch). The best dot for the dk i saw did rely on a long time (and melle range as that seems to be important now). Our highest damaging dot per cast is actually thundering presence but require melle range and to stay in melee range so not all that viable. Entropy is actually less damage per cast then single target equivalent (CS), but is nice for the buff (for one of my tests i gave up surge and entropy and just used a potion to make up for it).

I agree with the daedric mines review, the damage they increased it too is amazing. But to make it useful due to the immunity timer will be hard. 2 hits put it above single target and dot damage 3 hits put it above dot damage (from my tests). The immunity could make it a conplete waist if the boss triggers all of them too soon.

Kragorn

Watching Eric Wrobel yesterday it's clear his only interest is PVP, time and again he'd illustrate a point with reference to PVP, barely once did he touch upno PVE and then lamely ignored the negative effects of the change we was talking about at the time.

I'm not a 'sorc' really but from what I know and posts like the OP here and elsewhere it's patently obvious he's pretty clueless about Sorcs in PVE and worse, much of PVE in general.

Morvul

another interesting observation:
Sorcerers are always portrait as "the class with the best magicka management".

In reality though, the only serious class-specific magicka-sustain tools are 10% higher magicka regen (where nightblades get 30% for stamina...) and dark exchange - which no sorcerer is using (4 second channel is bad in PvE and PvP).

On the other hand, every sorcerer skill cost on average 40-50% more, then comparable skills from other classes.

So, in actuall fact, sorcerers are the worst class for magicka sustain, when they try to mainly use their own skills. (they are slightly better when using non-class magicka skills)

food for thought, no?

ToRelax

Morvul wrote: »

another interesting observation:
Sorcerers are always portrait as "the class with the best magicka management".

In reality though, the only serious class-specific magicka-sustain tools are 10% higher magicka regen (where nightblades get 30% for stamina...) and dark exchange - which no sorcerer is using (4 second channel is bad in PvE and PvP).

On the other hand, every sorcerer skill cost on average 40-50% more, then comparable skills from other classes.

So, in actuall fact, sorcerers are the worst class for magicka sustain, when they try to mainly use their own skills. (they are slightly better when using non-class magicka skills)

food for thought, no?

No. It's about the same with the DKs (who complain about having the most expensive skills as well), about the other classes i don't know.

Gyudan

Great posts OP.

3 necessary changes:

Make curse a real dot
Longer duration, lower damage, ticks every 0.5 or 1 seconds. People still complain about sorcerers being too bursty in PVP, which was mentioned in yesterday's ESO Live as a major issue for the class. This would reduce burst and increase sustained damage. Everyone wins.

Make surge unique
This skill is class-defining and it shouldn't be overpowered by Entropy and Momentum. Either buff surge (extended duration, additional boost for 5% damage dealt, ...) or nerf the others (shorter duration, higher cost). Entropy shouldn't even get that Major Sorcery buff in the first place, as it was already a decent choice for many players before 1,6 with the 8% health increase from the Structured Entropy morph.

Buff Bound armor (and make it less ugly)
For casters it's currently much less viable than Mage's Light as a toggle, since Mage's Light benefits from the Mage's Guild passive adding 2% max magicka and 2% magicka regen. For a defensive role, the armor and spell resistance increase is very low and I don't see any reason to use it in addition to lightning form.
This skill also looks as beautiful as Paul Sage's shirts. Please do something, since it's not even possible to hide it with a costume.

Morvul

ToRelax wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

another interesting observation:
Sorcerers are always portrait as "the class with the best magicka management".

In reality though, the only serious class-specific magicka-sustain tools are 10% higher magicka regen (where nightblades get 30% for stamina...) and dark exchange - which no sorcerer is using (4 second channel is bad in PvE and PvP).

On the other hand, every sorcerer skill cost on average 40-50% more, then comparable skills from other classes.

So, in actuall fact, sorcerers are the worst class for magicka sustain, when they try to mainly use their own skills. (they are slightly better when using non-class magicka skills)

food for thought, no?

No. It's about the same with the DKs (who complain about having the most expensive skills as well), about the other classes i don't know.

hm, true, DK skills are rather expensive too.
still: (1.5 numbers, sorry)
spiked armor: 336 magicka, lightning form: 420 magicka
dark talons 420, encase 560 (will be lower in 1.6)
lightning splash: 364, fire breath 280
Surge: 560, Molten weapons 280
deadric curse: 308, searing strike: 140
Crystal shard: 420, lava whip 280 (stonefist 420 though)

Now, I know none of these skills are 1:1 compareable in what they do - but they are close.
But there IS a trend here

my 40-50% estimate stated earlier does not stand up to scrutiny, but sorc skills clearly are expensive, even when compared to the expensive DK skills

Voltos

I couldn't have said it better, well done! /bow

rfennell_ESO

Morvul wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

another interesting observation:
Sorcerers are always portrait as "the class with the best magicka management".

In reality though, the only serious class-specific magicka-sustain tools are 10% higher magicka regen (where nightblades get 30% for stamina...) and dark exchange - which no sorcerer is using (4 second channel is bad in PvE and PvP).

On the other hand, every sorcerer skill cost on average 40-50% more, then comparable skills from other classes.

So, in actuall fact, sorcerers are the worst class for magicka sustain, when they try to mainly use their own skills. (they are slightly better when using non-class magicka skills)

food for thought, no?

No. It's about the same with the DKs (who complain about having the most expensive skills as well), about the other classes i don't know.

hm, true, DK skills are rather expensive too.
still: (1.5 numbers, sorry)
spiked armor: 336 magicka, lightning form: 420 magicka
dark talons 420, encase 560 (will be lower in 1.6)
lightning splash: 364, fire breath 280
Surge: 560, Molten weapons 280
deadric curse: 308, searing strike: 140
Crystal shard: 420, lava whip 280 (stonefist 420 though)

Now, I know none of these skills are 1:1 compareable in what they do - but they are close.
But there IS a trend here

my 40-50% estimate stated earlier does not stand up to scrutiny, but sorc skills clearly are expensive, even when compared to the expensive DK skills

Fact is that dks have better magicka sustain due to their passive that gives them 35% health/magicka/stamina on ultimate use.

Some Sorc abilities cost WAY too much magicka. Especially considering how useless they mostly are.

Joy_Division

Morvul wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

another interesting observation:
Sorcerers are always portrait as "the class with the best magicka management".

In reality though, the only serious class-specific magicka-sustain tools are 10% higher magicka regen (where nightblades get 30% for stamina...) and dark exchange - which no sorcerer is using (4 second channel is bad in PvE and PvP).

On the other hand, every sorcerer skill cost on average 40-50% more, then comparable skills from other classes.

So, in actuall fact, sorcerers are the worst class for magicka sustain, when they try to mainly use their own skills. (they are slightly better when using non-class magicka skills)

food for thought, no?

No. It's about the same with the DKs (who complain about having the most expensive skills as well), about the other classes i don't know.

hm, true, DK skills are rather expensive too.
still: (1.5 numbers, sorry)
spiked armor: 336 magicka, lightning form: 420 magicka
dark talons 420, encase 560 (will be lower in 1.6)
lightning splash: 364, fire breath 280
Surge: 560, Molten weapons 280
deadric curse: 308, searing strike: 140
Crystal shard: 420, lava whip 280 (stonefist 420 though)

Now, I know none of these skills are 1:1 compareable in what they do - but they are close.
But there IS a trend here

my 40-50% estimate stated earlier does not stand up to scrutiny, but sorc skills clearly are expensive, even when compared to the expensive DK skills

Having played both of these classes a long time and with various gear sets, I would agree that a sorc casting 100 spells will need more magicka than a DK casting 100 spells - at least from a DPS perspective (DK "tank" spells are costly). I think you see that your original estimate was too high, but, yeah, a DK DPS will cast lots of (cheap) Engulfing Flames, Burning Talons, and Molten weapons, whereas a Sorc DPS does not have the sort of cheap class DPS skills to supplement their damage, only the expensive Surge.

It all comes to inefficiency though, as I pointed out in the original post. I would not care so much if expensive spells like daedric mines, lightning form, and velcosious curse had a comparable effect on the battlefield as their high cost suggests.

rfennell_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

In the past few weeks, some Devs have hopped into feedback sessions sponsored by two guilds I am in and I came away with the impression that they honestly were not aware that the sorcerer was a relatively poor performer in end-game raids. In each session I was in, I felt the frustrations were communicated to the developers, but when asked to specifically lay out the problems and why the proposed changes in 1.6 would not allay these concerns, we were not up to the task. It was mostly vague disappointment that would neither outweigh the positive feedback they have received nor alter the reality that many sorc skills have in fact been buffed. So, I will attempt to do just that.

Great post btw.

Regarding this bit though... All these dks are mostly interested in dks doing everything better and continuing to have raids of 2 temps, 2 nbs and 8 dks.

The fact that ZOS is listening to raiders (which is laughable to begin with) instead of relying on internal metrics and testing is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

It's like the crying over trial gear from the "hardcore" raiders... They have multiples of every set sitting in banks. Of course they want the gear they didn't really work too hard to get (past leveling a dk) to be the best.

Digiman

Eric Wrobel needs to see Joy_Division post because it sums up the problems with sorcerers. Though I would argue that the reason for problems with sorcerers wasn't miscommunication but utter incompetence and lack of definitive direction in the class.

Like stated all classes at their base fill a niche role, DK for tanking, NB for sustained stamina DPS, sorcerer magical ranged DPs, and templer for tanking, healing, DPS. Both DK, Nightblade, templer could interchange roles without much effort, but the role of ranged caster became a wild card in PvE and PvP.

A ranged magical DPS who could stun you from range, lock you down, sick pets and summon wards while bolting yards away became a problem when the developers lacked any real direction or focus in the class.

Look at BE, their first big change was to betray the very philosophy of no CD's use any time in the game to reign in a ability that was really never added to ES series. Then without a doubt came the damage they inflicted in reigning in magical DPS, by the time they were done we had only one OP ability that people brought us along for.

Even now the PTS bespeaks of the current attention direction for sorcerers that I really think Wrobel will one day be forced to dedicate a patch to solving its reconciling it problems with his current implementations for "fixing" the class.

Nerfing the healing CD element of Surge is evidence of that enough, the utter lack of attention they gave to light armor users when they hammered out their mitigation was another. Look at the cascaded mess it made because cloth wearers wouldn't survive 2 hits with a weapon they were forced with using spammable shield stacking to reveal a huge oversight that was only available to one class?

In one master stroke it revealed the egregious damage and neglect the developers had ushered into on a single class only to reveal an new grasping problem that sorcerers were now dependent on shields to survive and now the developers moved their pieces a check position unable to get of the problems they had condensed in such a limited time frame.

Light armor needs to give spell power, like medium armor does for physical damage. Sorcerers need a dependent healing method from the damage they deal in combat, if not with surge then our passives. Finally light armor needs 1/3 damage mitigation not 1/4, I can see as cloth we shouldn't be able to sustain physical hits like a metal plate tank, but we shouldn't be piece of paper unless our spells are amplified to the point in light cloth that we would shread any armor wielder if we aren't focused and killed quickly.

I really hope they are reading these posts about sorcerers, because now they can't afford to mess this up an break a class into a niche with the release of the console versions, especially when they stated they have no intention of making any major changes for over 6 months while they let things settle.

I would forgive much of the problems with sorcerers but this is a reap what you sow scenario. Coupled with a disastrous launch much of the focus of ESO series has been to catch up to the problems they utterly ignored in beta that have grown out of control on top of the imbalances they have caused in the game. The reason why they knew they wouldn't sell single copy and postponed the launch for console version last year after we told them no one would buy it on PC in its current condition.

I really hope they are listening and finally decide on a proper direction for each of the class skills and the champion system at least helps with covering the current problems of the class.

I don't want them to release 1.6 and take a year long hiatus where we are still worse off then we were before the patch.

rfennell_ESO

Digiman wrote: »

I don't want them to release 1.6 and take a year long hiatus where we are still worse off then we were before the patch.

Directionally the only thing to do is roll a dk and join "the master class"

BEST tank, BEST pvp, BEST pve, somehow all the BEST players all picked dk!

Dracane

Why can't just all the classes deal the same DPS ? Why are DKs and NBs always allowed to be the masters ? Templars received a huuuge buff to damage, while Sorcerer received nothing at all.

And light armor is really bad now. I don't argue about the defense.
But light armor must buff spell damage and/or max Magicka, to justify the squishiness. Just remove the spell resistance passive, it does not help us anymore. Heavy has more anyway and medium has the same amount as light armor I believe.

Avatar1109

That is the longest post I have ever almost read. It's that kind of jargon that makes me fearful of getting into the VR levels(I am lvl 37 or 38 khajiit based on my real cat) Is it even possible to beat this game without paying as much attention to detail as somebody like you?

Snit

Avatar1109 wrote: »

Is it even possible to beat this game without paying as much attention to detail as somebody like you?

Once 1.6 has settled into live, there will be threads guiding you to the best DPS builds for PvE. It's virtually certain that at least one of them, the Togglemancer, will have an extremely straightforward playstyle (three of your five skill slots will be devoted to toggles, leaving two active skills per bar).

So, you don't need to get into the mechanics too deeply yourself to be competent at endgame -- you just need to find guidance from those interested in that sort of depth.

If you haven't found the theorycrafting forums over at Tamriel Foundry yet, you may want to do so. It's an excellent resource for endgame PvE builds.

glak

On a developer guild talk, it was said that a "pet" build option taking up slots was desirable because some people might prefer not having 10 choices what to do given a certain situation

I'm not letting ZOS devs get away with rewriting history. Pet toggles never were desireable for players, only the devs.

The purpose of making pets be a toggle was because in beta, players were keeping their pets and/or passive ability/ult buffs on their second ability bar as a buff bar. ZOS thinks this is unfair so they made these abilities into toggles. Some of us still do this with active buffs, h/dots, and second ult.

Nihil

Thinking on this at work, I think their are two parts more to the problem. 1) Sorc players don't know what we want. We as the forum community won't be able to agree on how to fix the class without breaking it. We see players who want more survivabilty but don't want to give up mobility. We want more damage and more self heals. We want to do descent damage with out summons, but some players choose the class for summons and want them to be competative. The forums want it all but to not give up anything in return. Problem 2) The sorcerer class is honestly on the edge of being strong in every area (but being a healer) that if we push to far we will tip into being overpowered.

For me to explain this I am going to evaluate a couple skills we have. First controversy, Surge. Surge has turned into basically a throw away skill for most players, partly due to entropy, Entropy cost less, does damage, heals and adds magicka / magicka regen. While Surge last about 40 % longer but cost over 3 times as much mana, does no damage and in most cases the weapon power increase wont be important (possible use for caltraps when bosses wont move for 30 seconds and survive long enough maybe?). What Surge does is give us a higher potential heal, even with the cool down. When testing out numbers My surge paired with liquid lightning and thundering presence (choosen for low damage dots that could eat up our heals) produced a 170 - 300 hps, while entropy provided a 150 ish on the same character. Now this was with surge only procing off dots (or intial hit of liquid lightning), the potential is that it can do more healing for the time depending on how the crits over lap (also done with only a template character). This leads us to having a problem where If we buff surge, this skill might become to strong again.

With 1.6 we saw an increase to daedric mines damage, a substantial one, but to counter it they also made boss' monster immune to it's damage after popping one of them for 1 second. Now lets look at damage on my template character, the mines base damage is 3.9k (per mine), while my CS is 3.3k. This means the base damage before crit / damage reduction is close to 20k for all 5 mines (tank would have to maneuver), or close to 12k instantly (if the boss is large enough to hit all three with, 8k if you can only hit with 2). While I don't think they should give complete immunity to following hits (due to extraordinary cost), The damage of a full Daedric mines would blow every other class out of the water, even with the 3 secondish cool down. I personally would think reducing damage for following mines to 10/15 % damage (within a second / 2 seconds) would keep this viable without pushing it to far over board. A good team might still be able to push the boss over the mines slower increasing the damage per cast drastically... But then they deserve that for being so well coordinated.

Velicious Curse, Damage is about similar to a DoT (little less then some class' DoT but also take less time to capatilize on damage so not as likely to cut short) all pushed into a burst. This burst is appreciated by pvp players, but questioned by pve players... Hard to balance this without making one side to angry. Cost is a little high, but it does have an aoe factor to it too ( I would personally give up the aoe, for a little more damage / lower cost but not sure if others/ZOS agree).

Bound armor, Sorcs are the only one that can use the minor buffs without casting a skill frequently (Dk need to cast stone fist / reflective scales to get the minor buff, or have someone use blessing of protection to get these buffs). I think this might be more beneficial to tanks then dps tho, as the dps gained from it will be less then that gained by inner light, and mainly giving a Damage reduction of 1.5-2 % for dps.

We just have a lot of things that if we push to far we will become overpowered, and thus we are a hard one to balance. With the coming changes there is some legitimate fear that light armor sorcs might be a thing of the past. But we still don't know the full implications of the changes. With being able to heal off of shields, we gain more survivability. If players start working in thundering presence while in the bubble shield ( or stand in the middle of lightning flood) we have the potential to lower the damage that melee opponents deal to our shields by 15 % (concussion effect).

I hope that they do balance these new changes appropriately that will allow us to be competitive and not weaken us to much, but I can see why they also would have a hard time with our class.

ToRelax

@Nihil the things about Entropy/Surge healing and minor buffs provided by Bound Armor make me wonder wether you are aware of just how small those numbers really are?

300 hps is like 30-40 hps on Live and the Armor gives you about 1,5% damage reduction for 2 slots (the Armor is about magicka/stamina increase and the heavy attack buff).

Snit

You can cast Bound Armor and Thundering Presence, and your (light) Armor mitigation will remain well under that of someone standing AFK in full medium.

Dracane

Bound armor gives a mitigation of 1,5% or so and thundering presence maybe 7%. I think, both are fun skills and nothing, someone would use for serious gameplay.

And as @Snit (my beloved companion) has mentioned, we must use 2 abilities to even come close to other armor types. I think, we're wasting slots.

Nihil

ToRelax wrote: »

@Nihil the things about Entropy/Surge healing and minor buffs provided by Bound Armor make me wonder wether you are aware of just how small those numbers really are?

300 hps is like 30-40 hps on Live and the Armor gives you about 1,5% damage reduction for 2 slots (the Armor is about magicka/stamina increase and the heavy attack buff).

With the comparison of Entropy and surge I was trying to show how surge is a little stronger then what players are giving it credit for. The common complaint is that our DoT's eat up the heal, so I took the worse case scenario(with a template character with only like 36 % crit rate) and checked how much health you could gain in comparison to Entropy over the life of a fight. In many cases you could very well gain heals on non DoT's and increase spike heal to upwards of 3k (if you crit CF). CS does weaken its strength a bit due to hitting three times, and as now we don't wear off three of the DK's reflect could be a place to argue that all three should heal us ( I personally think CS should only deal the damage of the staff you are wielding, it kind of get's rid of the point of different staves as it can apply all three of the elements status effects). So no I was not trying to show how awesome the DoT's heals were, but show a comparison of 2 skills that are commonly compared, and that one has potential for healing us for quite a bit for casting it once every 23 seconds.

You are right bound ageis would be pretty bad with out the added stats, BUT 1.5 - 2 % reduction in the opponents damage can be a nice bonus, when you look at it also giving sorcs ~6 % increase in hardened ward (Based on you getting 26 % increase to magicka from other sources) and aprox 2 % increase to dps without having to renew a spell every x amount of seconds. Sometimes you just need that little extra health to give you the moment to throw up another shield or heal... Now is it worth the 2 slots for you? That will depend on your build and how often you would use those 2 slots for something that would give you different situaltional advantage. But don't be so readily to dismiss damage reduction, because the longer we can survive the fight the more health that small 2 % damage reduction will return to us. (side note "and pales in comparison to the DK armor skill makes Bound Armor so bad sorcerers would be better off without it " this was what sparked that thought process about Bound aegis from the OP, which the equivalent skill for DK would be stone giant which, imo, our bound ageis makes look horrible).

Nihil

Dracane wrote: »

Bound armor gives a mitigation of 1,5% or so and thundering presence maybe 7%. I think, both are fun skills and nothing, someone would use for serious gameplay.

And as @Snit (my beloved companion) has mentioned, we must use 2 abilities to even come close to other armor types. I think, we're wasting slots.

That is actually more of an argument about armor types rather then class balance and I am sitting on the fence on that argument as I try to rationalize out the value that you gain for fighting at distance vs damage reduction. But for the sake of debate (as debating has far more potential to formulating what is actually wrong vs just agreeing) I will reference one of @Snit post from another thread. But first, In pvp I am considering most classes going at least 1 - 2 heavy including stamina users. As the 3 % increase to crit / the reduction in stamina cost can be hard to match the surviavbility of increase armor / health.

Edit: When looking at damage mitgation gained by increasing armor, you actually gain a large increase in mitigation per point of armor as you gain more armor. So the damage reduction of 1.5 / 7 ( I think 8 actually but would have to recheck math) % actually approach 3 /14 (16) % the closer you get to 50 % damage reduction. Although any other form of mitigation (major and minor protection buffs / major and minor maim/ concussion) will decrease the damage mitigation % gained by armor as they work multiplicatively.

Snit wrote: »

Suggestion: Scale Thundering Presence Armor.

Thundering Presence appears to scale in damage as it advances in rank. Instead, make it advance in Armor/ Spell resist, to better reflect what mages are actually using it for, an active defense.

It should be a good active defense. Here are some comparisons at VR14, in template gear:

Med Armor (full): Armor 11,414, Spell Resist 11,414
Light Armor (full): Armor 3,674, Spell Resist 6,138
LA with Thundering Armor (Rank IV): Armor 8,794, Spell Resist 11,258

Even with constant maintenance of a 20-second active buff, LA falls well behind medium in armor, and slightly behind in spell resist. I'm not going to test against heavy. We know how that would go.

If shields are going to be nerfed, we should have an alternative. I believe that, if we can dedicate a skill slot and constant stream of magicka and GCD's to maintaining our best armor skill, the protection granted should be comparable to that of medium armor.

It's not like Light provides any more damage than Medium.

With 1.6 our thundering presence got a huge buff in duration. This actually gives this skill a lot more thought then I would of ever given it in 1.5. With this skill dealing shock damage it actually makes this skill viable for both Light armor and heavy armor users. Shock as we know has the chance of applying the concussion status affect, reducing the damage a player deals by 15 %. This reduction in damage I find more appealing then trying to find a way to balance it by scaling it off of a stat (as this goes against the concept that ZOS had for the changing of buffs, It would be darn near impossible to have the armor bonus scale in a way that wouldn't give potential for it to make magicka based tanks to tanky with only the use of this skill, or if we are counting increasing armor purly by rank and not scaling compared to a stat, it already scales based off of lvl and VR lvl). The concussion affect can lead to a great increase to our survivability, specially for light armor. If we are able to apply this status affect to an enemy, while we have the status effect on the opponent we are basically increasing our damage shields by 17 ish %. After our shield drops if we combined this with our armor (only light although in pvp I wouldn't typically go that route now) and thundering presence we are looking at a damage mitigation of aprox 27 % (aprox 14 % from armor and 13 % from the concussion affect as they work multiplicative). So I think instead of looking at trying to increase our armor, we should look at the theme of sorcs... lightning.

Right now DK's have passives that increase the status effect of fire attacks. Putting Snares on ardent falme abilites and increasing the damage (marginally) of the burning effect. If we do something similar for sorcs and have a passive that increases the chance of applying the concussion effect, we are giving sorcs a (semi) more reliable damage mitgation mechanic (which we are lacking as suppression fields minor protection buff can be obtained using circle of protection). This buff would give new advantages to our lightning skills, as lightning flood / thundering presence / mages fury would then have an increase chance of reducing the damage that we will also be taking.

Side note: I haven't tested if concussion can be applied through block. If Concussion can't go through block I do think it should to give us that damage mitigation that we are lacking.