Developer Deep Dive—ESO's Class Identity Refresh

ZOS_Kevin · December 2

This is the official discussion thread for, "Developer Deep Dive—ESO's Class Identity Refresh"

"Read a deep dive letter from ZeniMax Online Studio’s Combat Team as they share their core philosophies, goals, and planning surrounding the future of ESO’s classes."

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2

Fairly sure this is the wrong link btw @ZOS_Kevin should go here: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/69039

Darkheart · December 2

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/69039

ZOS_Kevin · December 2

Fixed! Thank you, @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO and @Darkheart

L_Nici · December 2

Are you insane doing that step by step? You do realize that means the first class getting its unique buffs, will outclass everyone else by far right? Especially in PvP we can look forward to DoT DKs crushing everything they want. For it to be any form of balanced, they all need to be changed at once.
Also getting flashbacks to Elsweyrs DoT Meta...bad times.

I do like the idea though, especially reading the power fantasies of the classes makes me optimistic, I finally want to be the fastest on the battlefield with a Stamsorc (You won't forget Stamina versions exist again, will you?) again like in the good old days since the best way to avoid damage is not getting hit.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2

Initial thoughts:
1) Kind of surprised Necro is being left for almost last after it was left '1/2 reworked' a few years ago.
2) Seems like this is going to be the 'Vengeancification' of class abilities to make them simpler - hope it works out.
3) No word on how class specific things like IA sets and Class script will work - I hope these wont be forgotten during the reworks. p.s. Fix Warden Charm
4) Hybridization left unfinished (potions: not giving both crits/dmg/armor etc) - Will this be a rollback of hybridization to make the class fantasy of Mag/Stam class builds again?
5) If you buff specific class lines (like you mention with Earthen heart) what stops players just subclassing that new 'broken' line. Surely they should be buffed across all class lines to make your power of these unique buffs scale based on how 'pure' class you are?
6) I really recommend you engage with the community and submit proposals of what you intend to do on every class so players can point out issues before time is spent on changes which need to be instantly scrapped after exposing it to the wider playerbase.

Radiate77 · December 2

This can’t be one at a time.

I don’t want to see everyone on one class per patch again…

thejadefalcon · December 2

As it stands, subclassing is objectively stronger than “pure” classing by a large margin for several reasons. This is mostly caused by the vast differences in individual skill line designs. ESO was not built from launch with subclassing in mind, and the system highlighted issues with the current class skill line design that were not previously a factor but are untenable going forward.

Seriously? You just discovered this?

Why do you bother asking for feedback when you so clearly ignore everything that doesn't support what you already decided to do? Because people were telling you this from the moment you announced this. We didn't need "in-game data", we could see it literally just on paper. The PTS only confirmed it and yet it still went through exactly as people told you it would, in that solo class builds would suffer because you'll nerf them to account for the subclassing nobody asked for. We wanted a class change token, not this.

It's not even good at what it does. What's the difference between Sorcerer 2/Necromancer 1 and Necromancer 1/Sorcerer 2? Absolutely nothing, but guess which doesn't work?

This means refreshing and modernizing abilities, so they look and feel ... like the Arcanist.

Oh good, now every class can be a blinding nightmare I try to avoid.

Strengthen the unique identities of each class

Next patch note, based on every other time you've tried this: "Dragonknight sustain reduced to 0, because they're meant to struggle with their identity."

SnakeDodger · December 2

Can we figure out a way to not have our weapons disappear during skill casts? I don't know if this project includes sfx or just stats but it would be actually great to have this

SilverIce58 · December 2

To add on to all of this, I hope to see more involvement of the classes in the world at large. It feels like we pick classes and aside from the subclassing quest giver, they're hardly referenced (Necros and Arcanists but not the older classes), so itd be nice to see training academies of some sort in the world, with npcs of that class out there in the world.

Also I feel like Necromancer should be looked at before Nightblade. Not that Nightblades don't deserve a class update, but Necromancers need the change more in my opinion.

LunaFlora · December 2

nice post!
awesome to see that you all want to improve classes.

though hopefully skill lines will be reorganized in a way that allows my Subclassed builds to use the same skills they currently use.

Holmarion19 · December 2

Another post which augurs well for future communication with the Community: Thank You!

CoolBlast3 · December 2

This is great!

Doing it one at a time is smarter as well, even if it might lead to inconsistency in style/effectiveness/etc, it'll allow ZOS to see how one singular updated class affects the environment, and properly compensate/fix/etc when they'll need to. Instead of unleashing hell all at once.

Necro however is surprising to see that you all consider nearly on par with Arcanist. Animation wise perhaps, but gameplay wise it's really clunky and not in a good place.

lostineternity · December 2

"ESO was not built from launch with subclassing in mind"

When I said the exact same thing during the u46 PTS, I got so much hate from the white knights.
I'm genuinely surprised that it didn’t take ZOS five years to understand this very, very complex thing.

tomofhyrule · December 2

I need to see more about this before I make a decision.

I am very happy to (finally) see an admission of

As it stands, subclassing is objectively stronger than “pure” classing by a large margin for several reasons. This is mostly caused by the vast differences in individual skill line designs. ESO was not built from launch with subclassing in mind, and the system highlighted issues with the current class skill line design that were not previously a factor but are untenable going forward.

which is something that everyone has been saying since Subclassing leaked, and was fervently denied.

If this is going to balance things so OP lines (Assassination) are reined in while players are truly allowed to play as they want without a power differential greater than like 5% between meta and everything else, then I’m on board.

I do have two concerns though:
- This is making it sound like a long process, and the Combat Team does have a tendency to leave things in a half-finished state
- This sounds like “new Classes” is utterly off the table until this is done, which is quite disappointing for those of us who want to also play with something new

I’m intrigued, but I’m saving my optimism until we start seeing the U49 patch notes.

pelle412 · December 2

We used to have class identity. That is now gone. I welcome any effort to bring it back.

Skorro · December 2

Love the communication! Have a few concerns, but I'm sure many smarter than me will bring them up in detail and constructively

I would like to please ask that with the templar rework, you guys look at the jabs animation and style #neverForget
Also this is a great opportunity for sorc pet visual changes? 🙃

React · December 2

Well, I guess it'll be interesting watching this play out.

There are some contradicting implications here. It sounds like you'll be trying to take the original four classes in the "holy trinity" skill line design that thew new classes have, where there is one damage skill line, one healing skill line, one tank/utility skill line. In theory this is good for the subclassing environment, where some of these lines are a bit lacking.

But then further into the post in the dragonknight design section, you're talking about making some balance changes to bring back the class identity of dragonknight - sort of like how it was before the studio took the spreadsheet balancing approach that has been ruining the game for years now.

A return to the roots would be welcomed by many, especially if it brings back the depth of combat the studio has seemed hell bent on demolishing over the past five years. I just sincerely hope that there is a real vision this time, and that we're not just tossing changes at the wall to see what sticks.

And please, for the love of the game, listen to your player feedback during this process and make changes in a timely manner. Ignoring your playerbase and waiting entire patch cycles to make small balance adjustments are arguably the most alienating practices this studio has.

spartaxoxo · December 2

It's going to take almost 2 years to figure out balance?????? Or will patches be more frequently under the new cadence?????? Are you going to release them when they're ready instead of 1 real patch per quarter???

I don't think the stated vision of Dragonknights really fits with how I've seen the players enjoy Dragonknight. Like I'm pretty sure that a lot of pick Dragonknights because they view them as sturdy and I don't particularly imagine them as a class that has to balance resources a lot. But, maybe I'm wrong as it's not my most played class (I don't play it a lot). But, when I see it recommended to others, I've heard a lot of it being a good class for sustain instead.

Mathius_Mordred · December 2

Well if you hadn't introduced subclassing in the first place, something I don't believe anyone asked for in great numbers) you wouldn't have to do all this now.

A simple solution would be to boost DPS/Healing/Tanking of all Pure classes (ie classes that use only their original skill lines) by 10-15%. Simply add a new passive that can only be active if all original skill lines are present:

Pure Passive

Adds 15% to all damage
Adds 15% to all healing
Adds 15% to all resists and boosts health by 10%

Job done.

wolfie1.0. · December 2

Balancing them one at a time is insane. And going to create more work for ESO:

Here's why:

The first reworked class will be up against un reworked classes with a bias towards it either positive or negative.

If spaced out over quarterly patches or longer this initiative could take years and the full results wont be known for quite some time.

Given how such long term endeavors have previously rolled out this initiative may never truly complete. There are examples of this being the case. Hybridization is still not fully done and based on responses from zos about the topic it seems to habe been abandoned or deemed complete even though its not.

My preference is that you work on this initiative internally, and showcase the changes on the PTS. Then actually listen to players about the changes. And then decide if it rolls out or if its too soon.

The first class rebalanced is either going to be the weakest in the changes or the strongest, and its going to get the most changes as you will have to adjust it as you go.

Syldras · December 2

Great there's communication. Still reading, but I've already come across two points I'd like to comment on:

"We want each class to feel cohesive and true to its power fantasy with abilities, animations, and audio effects that reinforce its core identity. This means refreshing and modernizing abilities, so they look and feel as impactful as those of more recently introduced classes like the Arcanist."

I hope this doesn't mean more explosions and flashy effects?!

"Arcanists wield a form of runic magic so complex it requires a pact with Hermaeus Mora."

This clearly contradicts established lore. We have two more detailed sources that state that a pact is clearly not needed:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Loremaster's_Archive_-_The_Arcanists
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:What's_an_Arcanist?

PeacefulAnarchy · December 2

Will you redesign content so that these different playsyles have meaning outside pvp?
"For example, Nightblades rely on cunning and shadow to stay elusive in battle, striking while the moment is right,"
Which PvE boss can I have this power fantasy on? So many things don't work on bosses, including stealth and CC, not to mention the less obvious things like how some playstyles synergize with the way content is designed and others just make things harder with no benefit. I wouldn't mind if there was more variety where some playstyles are better in some places than others, but currently big cleave is king and the faster you do damage the more mechanics you can skip and fights get not just easier but exponentially easier. so 10% less than optimal damage can make a fight 25% longer and 25% less can make a fihht twice as long and half the damage can make a fight 4 or 5 times longer (obviously the scaling is different in different fights, but it is a general trend in trial and dungeon and even WB design).
This means some play styles are better than others even if they parse the same or are numerically balanced.

Renato90085 · December 2

So,if you can every patch(3month) rewark a class ,you need 21 month done all...
it mean we fast can see sorc,the weakest base class in subclass got change is 9 month later?
and unbalanced arcanist beam meta survive more 21+ month got change?

I appreciate this
but this is actually most feedback from U46 PTS..
also what will happen to class set and scribe page if you want rework all class line?

jm42 · December 2

L_Nici wrote: »

Are you insane doing that step by step? You do realize that means the first class getting its unique buffs, will outclass everyone else by far right? Especially in PvP we can look forward to DoT DKs crushing everything they want. For it to be any form of balanced, they all need to be changed at once.
Also getting flashbacks to Elsweyrs DoT Meta...bad times.

I do like the idea though, especially reading the power fantasies of the classes makes me optimistic, I finally want to be the fastest on the battlefield with a Stamsorc again like in the good old days since the best way to avoid damage is not getting hit.

kinda yes, but we have already seen what happens when they update too much at once - game will be borked for months

Faulgor · December 2

Awesome! Communication has certainly stepped up a tier recently, and it's very much appreciated.

Class identity always felt like a weak spot for ESO. After the shaky launch, players drove the change to have every class be viable for every role, which inevitably led to substantial homogenization. I'm thrilled we are finally seeing a commitment to make every class offer a unique playstyle.

While I'm not 100% sold on the current power fantasy descriptions (e.g., IMO, TES Sorcerer should have remained heavily armored Conjurors), I'm very much looking forward to this development!

Aliyavana · December 2

SilverIce58 wrote: »

To add on to all of this, I hope to see more involvement of the classes in the world at large. It feels like we pick classes and aside from the subclassing quest giver, they're hardly referenced (Necros and Arcanists but not the older classes), so itd be nice to see training academies of some sort in the world, with npcs of that class out there in the world.

Also I feel like Necromancer should be looked at before Nightblade. Not that Nightblades don't deserve a class update, but Necromancers need the change more in my opinion.

I’d love to have a questline dedicated to exploring each class.

spartaxoxo · December 2

Faulgor wrote: »

Awesome! Communication has certainly stepped up a tier recently, and it's very much appreciated.

Class identity always felt like a weak spot for ESO. After the shaky launch, players drove the change to have every class be viable for every role, which inevitably led to substantial homogenization. I'm thrilled we are finally seeing a commitment to make every class offer a unique playstyle.

While I'm not 100% sold on the current power fantasy descriptions (e.g., IMO, TES Sorcerer should have remained heavily armored Conjurors), I'm very much looking forward to this development!

Yeah. I'm hoping that the conjuration aspects of the sorc don't fall by the wayside.

The_Meathead · December 2

Here we go again.

Nearly everyone knew and stated very early on that Subclassing was going to trainwreck balance. Any objectivity at all allowed the foresight to see that, and here we are. I guess I applaud the effort to correct the problem you made despite the absurd amounts of warning, but frankly you guys have been biting off WAY more than you can chew lately, and I have a hard time thinking this won't end up the same.

I guess I just don't understand why you keep trying to reinvent the wheel rather than tweak existing things that are good but could be great (ie Class Balance before Subclassing, Cyrodiil before Vengeance, etc.) There's always a TON of feedback from people far smarter than I am, complete with numeric and statistical detail, on the PTS forum that seems to go entirely ignored - and then oh look, several months later those same worries are at last acknowledged like nobody could have possibly them coming, and then either nothing ever really changes or... BOOM! Ginormous OVERreaction, sledgehammer when we needed a scalpel.

Smaller, more consistent changes, finely tuning what is good about the game rather than blowing it all up and rebuilding surely seems a better path, but here we go again. It feels like it's been a LONG time since you guys made positive changes (U35, to be exact) and have been making poor decisions for quite a while. I'm hanging on because enough of the game I love remains, but at some point, it's not gonna exist anymore.

Eh, maybe this is too negative for what you're announcing here... but it just feels like another incoming round of something you'll never really finish and will likely cause more problems than it corrects.

Sarannah · December 2

Very interested to see how all that works out! Hopefully there won't be (m)any nerfs.

Some comments:
-Like others have stated, push the necromancer up to the second class being worked on. This class can use the rework! (and please remove the outlawed/crime from abilities, lore-wise they are cool but gameplay-wise it's just annoying getting bounty while questing)
-Would it be possible to make subclassing into it's own class eventually(adventurer)? And even have us start new characters as a subclass character in character creation(maybe unlocked with a level 50 requirement)?
-Abilities that fire in x seconds should be changed at the core(like the mentioned DK's inhale). Too much happens in two seconds that renders those abilities useless by default. And basically every other class's abilities, even those with lower damage, will be picked over these. Two times 700 damage in two seconds is more than one time 1000 damage in two seconds. (would rather see inhale become a channel that continuously fires flames completely around the DK, while maybe restoring a tiny bit of health based on damage done)

PS: Please allow us to close/finish the subclassing quest even if we pick non-selected classlines.

lostineternity · December 2

L_Nici wrote: »

Are you insane doing that step by step? You do realize that means the first class getting its unique buffs, will outclass everyone else by far right? Especially in PvP we can look forward to DoT DKs crushing everything they want. For it to be any form of balanced, they all need to be changed at once.
Also getting flashbacks to Elsweyrs DoT Meta...bad times.

I do like the idea though, especially reading the power fantasies of the classes makes me optimistic, I finally want to be the fastest on the battlefield with a Stamsorc again like in the good old days since the best way to avoid damage is not getting hit.

Exactly. [snip]
A multiclass combat system in a game like this is basically an ecosystem. You can't change one class and then analyze data to understand whether it works or not, because the only data that matters is when every class has been updated.

[snip]

I might be toxic but I have no sympathy for such unprofessionalism.
These issues didn't come from nowhere and no one could expect them.
Players told them exactly the same things from the day subclassing was announced.
[edited for bashing]