alakeyfox wrote: »

Hello,

I would like any ZOS employee to publicly confirm to us here that the following actions do not violate the ZOS code of conduct of ESO:

1. Join a random dungeon group
2. Proceed through 90% of the dungeon until the final boss
3. Attempt to kick 1 random
4. After failing to do so, bully them into leaving the group
5. Kick the other person out for refusing the kick the other person for no reason

I filed an in-game report, which was declined 10min later after a "thorough" investigation. Then I filed another report via the website, which was closed after 3 minutes, another "thorough" investigation I presume.

Not posting any screenshots, videos or names here yet. For ZOS employees the ticket number is 250822-001611. There's a video and screenshots attached of the 2 griefers admitting to griefing us after the failed kick attempt, subsequently kicking me out last for refusing the vote to kick.

If the above does not qualify as the violation of Code of Conduct, then I guess we are free to grief every group dungeon?

I had something like this happen last week, a New player made a mistake in a dungeon, and the tank was spamming the kick the whole rest of the dungeon, and when we simply didn't agree to kick the new player, the tank simply stood still, didn't fight or do anything for the rest of the dungeon.

Yeah, I've also had occasional issues with players kicking players without necessarily having great reasons.

Had one run where I got vote kicked after voting down a kick of someone else.

Personally, I'd suggest having occasional audits on the players that are in the top few % of vote kicking.

alakeyfox wrote: »

I filed an in-game report, which was declined 10min later after a "thorough" investigation. Then I filed another report via the website, which was closed after 3 minutes, another "thorough" investigation I presume.

You've misunderstood how the support ticket function works.

Whenever you raise a ticket you'll receive an automated response very quickly. This hasn't 'closed' the ticket but if you don't reply to it the ticket will be considered closed (they might investigate but it's very unlikely).

If you want your ticket to actually be looked at you need to go to the website and reply - you can attach any videos or screenshots at that point too.

Its still unlikely they do anything but still maybe more helpful than the auto response

alakeyfox wrote: »

Hello,

I would like any ZOS employee to publicly confirm to us here that the following actions do not violate the ZOS code of conduct of ESO:

1. Join a random dungeon group
2. Proceed through 90% of the dungeon until the final boss
3. Attempt to kick 1 random
4. After failing to do so, bully them into leaving the group
5. Kick the other person out for refusing the kick the other person for no reason

I filed an in-game report, which was declined 10min later after a "thorough" investigation. Then I filed another report via the website, which was closed after 3 minutes, another "thorough" investigation I presume.

Not posting any screenshots, videos or names here yet. For ZOS employees the ticket number is 250822-001611. There's a video and screenshots attached of the 2 griefers admitting to griefing us after the failed kick attempt, subsequently kicking me out last for refusing the vote to kick.

If the above does not qualify as the violation of Code of Conduct, then I guess we are free to grief every group dungeon?

Why do I get the feeling that we're missing some needed context here.

For reference, this is the answer i got from support for asking something similar. But in my case i asked for a list of actions (considered offensive behaviour in Cyrodiil), not a certain one:

Greetings,

We will not provide you an exhaustive list of every possible violation in every possible context. If you have questions or concerns regarding a behavior in the game, we encourage you to avoid any offensive behavior and review the Terms of Service and Code of Conduct.

Terms of Service  - https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/terms-of-service

Code of Conduct - https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

Regards,
The Elder Scrolls Online Team

It sounds to me like we're missing some details here however, having ran as Tank in 4-man groups, including some Trials, for many years, I can say that no one is ever really guaranteed anything. That's why when you run, maybe especially as a random, don't mess up, don't make mistakes and never attract too much attention to yourself or something like this could happen. I would be interested in hearing from the other players as well.

If finishing the run means losing a player who's not fulfilling their role then for the good of the group, you probably should have kicked them. Again, I'm not certain exactly what happened on your run but what the majority wants matters because it does. If I sat back and argued with everyone and fought ever kick no one would have got thru at all. Even if it's the last boss, as others have said on here, many times in the past, no one is entitled to someone else's time or resources unless they're willing to give it. That applies even in circumstances that you or I don't like.

That said, I hate kicking people. Believe or not, I hate being ugly to people. However sometimes people need to be kicked. And there's always that one person trying to prove a point who won't do it and now not only will the person we're trying to kick lose out, but the group will most likely disband. It's sad that things work this way but at least they work for some if not for all. If you feel so strongly that people shouldn't be kicked then it's your responsibility to take extra time and vett, the other players to ensure everyone agrees with you.

I always hate it when the vote to kick comes up. If someone won’t leave the start area after a few minutes, then it’s fine. If we are progressing through the dungeon and I don’t see anything really wrong then I won’t. I did get booted from a dungeon once because I wouldn’t kick someone, but I had been in that dungeon for well over an hour and we were at the last boss and I just wanted to get done with it. The stinger was that I was the last one from the original group because people kept leaving and we didn’t get the hard mode so I got booted before completion. That was a long time ago.

It sucks but what can you do.

There is a ton of griefing that goes on in the game. Pugs work best for very experienced players who are going to just brush it off and instantly move on.
The less experienced the player the more vital it is that they do these activities with a guild.

This is my personal policy:

If someone in a random dungeon group is egregiously misbehaving, completely inactive, rushing far ahead of everyone else, etc., I will initiate a Vote To Kick once and only once.

If the group fails to kick, I will leave the instance without leaving the group, and I consider this "an act of civil disobedience" displaying my feeling about the failure to kick an obviously badly misbehaving individual ... and I will misbehave and wait until I am kicked. Sometimes I am, sometimes I am not.

I never report any of this misbehavior because I don't think it rises to the level of requiring a report to be filed.

Am I right in thinking that the game didn't launch with the ability to kick players, that came in later? If so, how do those who have played under both systems and run PUGs regularly feel they compare? Was the introduction of kicking players a good thing, or has it created more problems than it has solved?

Tandor wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that the game didn't launch with the ability to kick players, that came in later? If so, how do those who have played under both systems and run PUGs regularly feel they compare? Was the introduction of kicking players a good thing, or has it created more problems than it has solved?

The game had no automated group matchmaking for quite awhile.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MGRza wrote: »

alakeyfox wrote: »

Hello,

I would like any ZOS employee to publicly confirm to us here that the following actions do not violate the ZOS code of conduct of ESO:

1. Join a random dungeon group
2. Proceed through 90% of the dungeon until the final boss
3. Attempt to kick 1 random
4. After failing to do so, bully them into leaving the group
5. Kick the other person out for refusing the kick the other person for no reason

I filed an in-game report, which was declined 10min later after a "thorough" investigation. Then I filed another report via the website, which was closed after 3 minutes, another "thorough" investigation I presume.

Not posting any screenshots, videos or names here yet. For ZOS employees the ticket number is 250822-001611. There's a video and screenshots attached of the 2 griefers admitting to griefing us after the failed kick attempt, subsequently kicking me out last for refusing the vote to kick.

If the above does not qualify as the violation of Code of Conduct, then I guess we are free to grief every group dungeon?

I had something like this happen last week, a New player made a mistake in a dungeon, and the tank was spamming the kick the whole rest of the dungeon, and when we simply didn't agree to kick the new player, the tank simply stood still, didn't fight or do anything for the rest of the dungeon.

Shoulda vote kicked the tank when they became petulant and refused to play.

Agree, and this tend to work, I did that on an speedrunner and an random normal who was a dlc, I and another needed quest, last was just lost.
I did an vote kick on speedrunner, it passed fast, we did not got another but it was no issue finishing it.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that the game didn't launch with the ability to kick players, that came in later? If so, how do those who have played under both systems and run PUGs regularly feel they compare? Was the introduction of kicking players a good thing, or has it created more problems than it has solved?

The game had no automated group matchmaking for quite awhile.

Agreed, but when it was introduced I don't recall that kicking was a part of it, did that not come later?

katanagirl1 wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

A couple days ago one of the pledges was City of Ash II. The dungeon used to be pretty challenging, but now days with modern builds even pugs should be able to get through a vet CoAII run without too many issues.

So there I was on my fully subclassed dps warden/necro/acanist that has 36.5k health. Yes, it's a PvP build, but with a few tweaks is plenty strong dps in PvE especially for a dungeon that, while long, isn't very hard anymore. Some pug comes into the group, complains about my "40k health on a dps" and immediately leaves the group. So the healer, tank and me finished the dungeon with just the three of us, hard mode and all....with me being the only dps on a PvP build. The player left the group before even seeing what my dps actually was. ...and what it was was plenty enough for vCoAII HM with me being the only dps in the group.

Long story short, people like to claim PvP players are the most toxic group in game. But my experience has been by far, hands down, no contest, the newer dungeon runners who think they've got everything all figured out when in fact they can't even create their own build that is better than most you find online that prove to be the most toxic.

Newbs are not toxic, cocky perhaps, ignorant to the reality perhaps, but not toxic. I believe toxic is when a player thinks themselves better than others and are using boisterous claims to boost their own persona while belittling others. Being rude or demeaning has never resolved a conflict but some fall into that mode every disagreement. I can see why the group finder is ineffective. There is much 'my way or the highway' attitude moving; then the shade falls upon those who choose the highway.
I think those that dropped out of group before the fight began because they didn't like your build are no different than those who kick players because they don't like their build. Perhaps those that dropped out before the fight are more mature in their behavior.
I also believe that group dungeons should be ended. Remove the group-checks, and open them to the public. Just make them level two Public dungeons.

New players can be toxic is they are doing such low dps that the group is carrying them (without their knowledge of course, because of their ignorance) and they refuse to learn how to do better. Since they are being carried and it seems easy they assume they are doing just fine. Then they’ll get into another group where the overall dps is not high and blame the others for not doing well. This is as bad as toxic elitist attitude because it is completely false.

A new player is not going to know their dps is low unless they are told; not everyone has a test dummy in their closet. Unfortunately 'learning how to do better' usual includes instructions toward min/max builds that most people don't want to do. Instructions to a new dungeon player should be advice regarding gaming skills, like don't stand in the red, kill the adds, or heal the tank first. If they are being told to pull these skills and wear that armor or drop some kind of pot, the instructions could be overwhelming a player that does not have the ability to follow those instructions. Maybe a training version of the dungeons that players go test solo or with a companion or friend. (I say solo or with a friend because no one wants to fail before strangers.)

Long time ago, I was running a solo-survivalist build in another game. I was often invited to run special dungeons with the guild members. My position was DPS. I did not do as much damage as the other two DPS players. BUT, my build and skills allowed me to do damage while healing our healer. He was a great healer (mostly) but he was too focused on keeping the tank alive that he forgot to cover his own tail. Without me, the healer would fall, without the healer, the tank would fall, without the tank, the DPS would not survive. As awkward as it all sounded to new commers, it was the path we took. I tell this story to point out why telling new players to change gear or skills isn't really helping them.

shadoza wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

A couple days ago one of the pledges was City of Ash II. The dungeon used to be pretty challenging, but now days with modern builds even pugs should be able to get through a vet CoAII run without too many issues.

So there I was on my fully subclassed dps warden/necro/acanist that has 36.5k health. Yes, it's a PvP build, but with a few tweaks is plenty strong dps in PvE especially for a dungeon that, while long, isn't very hard anymore. Some pug comes into the group, complains about my "40k health on a dps" and immediately leaves the group. So the healer, tank and me finished the dungeon with just the three of us, hard mode and all....with me being the only dps on a PvP build. The player left the group before even seeing what my dps actually was. ...and what it was was plenty enough for vCoAII HM with me being the only dps in the group.

Long story short, people like to claim PvP players are the most toxic group in game. But my experience has been by far, hands down, no contest, the newer dungeon runners who think they've got everything all figured out when in fact they can't even create their own build that is better than most you find online that prove to be the most toxic.

Newbs are not toxic, cocky perhaps, ignorant to the reality perhaps, but not toxic. I believe toxic is when a player thinks themselves better than others and are using boisterous claims to boost their own persona while belittling others. Being rude or demeaning has never resolved a conflict but some fall into that mode every disagreement. I can see why the group finder is ineffective. There is much 'my way or the highway' attitude moving; then the shade falls upon those who choose the highway.
I think those that dropped out of group before the fight began because they didn't like your build are no different than those who kick players because they don't like their build. Perhaps those that dropped out before the fight are more mature in their behavior.
I also believe that group dungeons should be ended. Remove the group-checks, and open them to the public. Just make them level two Public dungeons.

New players can be toxic is they are doing such low dps that the group is carrying them (without their knowledge of course, because of their ignorance) and they refuse to learn how to do better. Since they are being carried and it seems easy they assume they are doing just fine. Then they’ll get into another group where the overall dps is not high and blame the others for not doing well. This is as bad as toxic elitist attitude because it is completely false.

A new player is not going to know their dps is low unless they are told; not everyone has a test dummy in their closet. Unfortunately 'learning how to do better' usual includes instructions toward min/max builds that most people don't want to do. Instructions to a new dungeon player should be advice regarding gaming skills, like don't stand in the red, kill the adds, or heal the tank first. If they are being told to pull these skills and wear that armor or drop some kind of pot, the instructions could be overwhelming a player that does not have the ability to follow those instructions. Maybe a training version of the dungeons that players go test solo or with a companion or friend. (I say solo or with a friend because no one wants to fail before strangers.)

Long time ago, I was running a solo-survivalist build in another game. I was often invited to run special dungeons with the guild members. My position was DPS. I did not do as much damage as the other two DPS players. BUT, my build and skills allowed me to do damage while healing our healer. He was a great healer (mostly) but he was too focused on keeping the tank alive that he forgot to cover his own tail. Without me, the healer would fall, without the healer, the tank would fall, without the tank, the DPS would not survive. As awkward as it all sounded to new commers, it was the path we took. I tell this story to point out why telling new players to change gear or skills isn't really helping them.

I agree some players just are overwhelmed but it is not always the case. In a group setting everyone is expected to pull their weight. There are those who are willing to learn and there are those who flat out refuse.

I will excuse myself from more discussion at the request of the mod.

EDIT: sorry messed up quotes