Should Desync Causing CC be Removed in PvP?

Artisian0001 · August 22

Before I even start on this post I'd like to preface that all forms of displacement CC still CC for the same amount of time, they just don't displace your character. Why? Well, it seems to be the case for a few years new, and it's becoming even more present that displacement CC is causing a major issue in the game, not from a balance perspective, but from a performance perspective.

For years, displacement CC like templar javelin has caused issues where characters get placed in positions they don't belong, or cause your character to become positionally desynced and are effectively useless until they are "returned" to orbit. When performance gets worse (which is common every night in PvP) the probability of one of these displacement CCs desyncing your character increases, for whatever reason. I was playing after the whitestrakes campaigns closed on Monday, hoping them being open still and causing a massive amount of strain on the server due to memory leak was what was causing the issue, and found myself still experiencing a decent amount of issues during primetime. To make matters worse, there were groups of 60k HP tanks running around only using templar javelin with the express intent of causing a character to become desynced. Now, I have no issue with people playing the way they want, I would prefer if ZOS just fix the problem, but the problem hasn't been fixed in years. Jav has always caused this issue, meteor knockup still gets people trapped in ceilings albeit much less often then it used to, warden gate can still be used to pull people to positions they shouldn't be, and other forms of CC can cause you to get trapped under stairs or under the map entirely. Again, I would prefer the issue be fixed, but it isn't getting fixed, and I would think it would be in everyone's best interest to just disable displacement in PvP from CC abilities because all it does is create even more issues when the server isn't functioning up to par.

LadyGP · August 22

I've been a player since beta and within the last 7 years most of my time has been in PvP. The dsync issues from movement altering skills has ALWAYS been a problem in Cyro.

It's always been odd to me that they kept adding more and more movement altering skills to the game as dsync was a problem they openly talked about on streams (back when Rich would stream) and they said they were looking into it but it's a nightmare to solve. Instead of solving... they kind of doubled down on adding more of those skills.

Right now when you go into PvP you're constantly getting hit by meteors, runes, spears, charms, (the skill that picks you up and moves you in the air until you break it.. forget what it's called).. the sheer number of movement altering skills is mind blowing.

IMO this adds a very bad experience and poor pvp "style" to the game. With PvP being as messy as it is... IMO... they should look at removing a lot of the movement altering aspects from skills.

I can see the reason behind it, I'm assuming, was to make it so they could split up members in ball groups and have them slowly get picked off.. but ball groups cordination (and communication) are usually top tier so this is more of an annoyance than anything (and often gets turned around against the people the skill was hoping to help) [vd, plague, rush, etc I'm looking at you].

Anyways.. just my two cents if any dev ever reads this post.

MincMincMinc · August 22

The real answer is that they should just recode these mechanics from scratch and make them work. Not just copy, paste, and patch up code from 2010 development days. Generally the skills are fine on the landscape plane(the smooth hilly surface that makes up the ground) however they break on certain assets like keep walls and staircases.

There are probably limitations game engine wise. However there are probably work arounds like a knockup could just make your character "jump backwards" with a different animation while doing a normal stun. Vs some poorly coded scripted path that tries to place you X distance behind you on the same plane.

The worrying thing we see in the current combat direction is how many playstyles are being made boring and converging into a singular playstyle. At some point if all CC are the same combat will feel stale. If all class lines have the same generic ult gen they will be no different. If all spammables play the same why not just choose the one best? You can keep going on and on. Subclassing only accelerated this and pushed everyone to play nearly identically no matter the "build". Its pretty comical when people complain about vengeance template pvp......yet live is mostly all just a zos template build with different animations.

LadyGP · August 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The real answer is that they should just recode these mechanics from scratch and make them work. Not just copy and paste code from 2010 development days. Generally the skills are fine on the landscape plane(the smooth hilly surface that makes up the ground) however they break on certain assets like keep walls and staircases.

There are probably limitations game engine wise. However there are probably work arounds like a knockup could just make your character "jump backwards" with a different animation while doing a normal stun. Vs some poorly coded scripted path that tries to place you X distance behind you on the same plane.

The worrying thing we see in the current combat direction is how many playstyles are being made boring and converging into a singular playstyle. At some point if all CC are the same combat will feel stale. If all class lines have the same generic ult gen they will be no different. If all spammables play the same why not just choose the one best? You can keep going on and on. Subclassing only accelerated this and pushed everyone to play nearly identically no matter the "build". Its pretty comical when people complain about vengeance template pvp......yet live is mostly all just a zos template build with different animations.

I get the point you're trying to make (the second section) but I'd argue the reason why that is happening is because of the lack of balance attempts ZoS has done to PvP. PvP right now is in a state of "if you don't do this, this, or this, you're dead instantly".

Giving everyone 70k health and making the TTK forever long isn't the answer to poor balancing attempts (or lack of attempts at all tbh).

MincMincMinc · August 22

LadyGP wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The real answer is that they should just recode these mechanics from scratch and make them work. Not just copy and paste code from 2010 development days. Generally the skills are fine on the landscape plane(the smooth hilly surface that makes up the ground) however they break on certain assets like keep walls and staircases.

There are probably limitations game engine wise. However there are probably work arounds like a knockup could just make your character "jump backwards" with a different animation while doing a normal stun. Vs some poorly coded scripted path that tries to place you X distance behind you on the same plane.

The worrying thing we see in the current combat direction is how many playstyles are being made boring and converging into a singular playstyle. At some point if all CC are the same combat will feel stale. If all class lines have the same generic ult gen they will be no different. If all spammables play the same why not just choose the one best? You can keep going on and on. Subclassing only accelerated this and pushed everyone to play nearly identically no matter the "build". Its pretty comical when people complain about vengeance template pvp......yet live is mostly all just a zos template build with different animations.

I get the point you're trying to make (the second section) but I'd argue the reason why that is happening is because of the lack of balance attempts ZoS has done to PvP. PvP right now is in a state of "if you don't do this, this, or this, you're dead instantly".

Giving everyone 70k health and making the TTK forever long isn't the answer to poor balancing attempts (or lack of attempts at all tbh).

Do you mean the 3rd paragraph? I assume so since there isn't much to talk about in terms of zos should just recode CC's from the ground up.

The lack of different playstyles has some better examples like recently zos started to gut the ult gen of classes. Like NB catalyst was always a large boost based on potions. Instead they tried to make just a generic over time.......What is the point of the passives if everyone has them. Like if everyone is eso gets a passive that does a proc all the time, why not just remove it entirely and save the server the tick?

They did a similar thing to the sustain models of the base classes after warden came out. Netch had given a guaranteed restore per second over a time period. Soon after Sorc darkdeal just became a bland restore x per second. Templar is restore x per second. Dk is restore x per second. nb is restore x per second. I believe the reasoning was more for pve newer/mid tier players having trouble sustaining with the various methods compared to a basic over time constant sustain model.

Before you had Sorcs running more max stat builds with low regen. They'd use the flat exchange instead of a generic constant stream of resources. So shield sorcs and streak spam sorcs would gas out if they were bad, then youd catch them while casting.
DKs youd play around their ult return and debuffs
Nbs old siphon was hit chance based, so youd try to run out any dots or spread out from your teammates
Templars you'd try to string out to force them to waste resources on bulding their house

Teeba_Shei · August 22

I made a post about this exact thing in the bug report forum. You can actually get permanently CCed if you get hit with a knockback during lag. Only way to fix it is to wait like 1 minute and eventually you get control of your character again or just die. I play in a small scale group and it happened 15 times to different members of my group the other night during prime time. Seems like its the new best counter to ball groups. It doesn't consistently happen, but if you get hit with enough knockbacks it will eventually occur.

EDIT: To be clear I'm only talking about knockbacks. Pulls don't seem to cause the same problem.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682198/getting-permanently-cced-due-to-knockbacks#latest

Artisian0001 · August 22

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

I made a post about this exact thing in the bug report forum. You can actually get permanently CCed if you get hit with a knockback during lag. Only way to fix it is to wait like 1 minute and eventually you get control of your character again or just die. I play in a small scale group and it happened 15 times to different members of my group the other night during prime time. Seems like its the new best counter to ball groups. It doesn't consistently happen, but if you get hit with enough knockbacks it will eventually occur.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682198/getting-permanently-cced-due-to-knockbacks#latest

Yeah, I hope it gets fixed but at least disabled at some point until something is done about it because it makes gameplay, not even less enjoyable, but just non existent when you are there suspended in air for periods of up to 30 seconds at a time.

Teeba_Shei · August 22

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

I made a post about this exact thing in the bug report forum. You can actually get permanently CCed if you get hit with a knockback during lag. Only way to fix it is to wait like 1 minute and eventually you get control of your character again or just die. I play in a small scale group and it happened 15 times to different members of my group the other night during prime time. Seems like its the new best counter to ball groups. It doesn't consistently happen, but if you get hit with enough knockbacks it will eventually occur.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682198/getting-permanently-cced-due-to-knockbacks#latest

Yeah, I hope it gets fixed but at least disabled at some point until something is done about it because it makes gameplay, not even less enjoyable, but just non existent when you are there suspended in air for periods of up to 30 seconds at a time.

Unfortunately the devs don't really pay attention to pvp issues. Its been 12 years since the game came out and you can still place a mage guild rune in the doorway of a tower to knock people into the ceiling where they become stuck until they queue out. Almost all of the weird CC abilities like knockback, frozen gate, and knockup are primarily used to troll rather than to gain any tactical advantage.

ZOS_Icy · August 22

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Artisian0001 · August 22

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

I made a post about this exact thing in the bug report forum. You can actually get permanently CCed if you get hit with a knockback during lag. Only way to fix it is to wait like 1 minute and eventually you get control of your character again or just die. I play in a small scale group and it happened 15 times to different members of my group the other night during prime time. Seems like its the new best counter to ball groups. It doesn't consistently happen, but if you get hit with enough knockbacks it will eventually occur.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682198/getting-permanently-cced-due-to-knockbacks#latest

Yeah, I hope it gets fixed but at least disabled at some point until something is done about it because it makes gameplay, not even less enjoyable, but just non existent when you are there suspended in air for periods of up to 30 seconds at a time.

Unfortunately the devs don't really pay attention to pvp issues. Its been 12 years since the game came out and you can still place a mage guild rune in the doorway of a tower to knock people into the ceiling where they become stuck until they queue out. Almost all of the weird CC abilities like knockback, frozen gate, and knockup are primarily used to troll rather than to gain any tactical advantage.

I know it's a shame, if they just turned it off PvP would be so much more enjoyable and it doesn't require much work to just turn it into a regular stun.

YandereGirlfriend · August 22

All existing displacements should be turned into normal Stuns and Fears.

It definitely has caught-on that spamming displacements is a sure-fire way to de-sync your opponents and folk are abusing it like back in the old Snipe days when gankers knew that Snipe would de-sync their targets, making for easy and uncontested kills.

xylena_lazarow · August 22

Displacement is often worse than a stun, and is nearly always a punch-down by a large group against a solo, since only the larger force can spare players to do something as otherwise useless as spamming chain pulls.

Teeba_Shei · August 22

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

All existing displacements should be turned into normal Stuns and Fears.

It definitely has caught-on that spamming displacements is a sure-fire way to de-sync your opponents and folk are abusing it like back in the old Snipe days when gankers knew that Snipe would de-sync their targets, making for easy and uncontested kills.

3000% agree with this. They could leave the knockbacks in pve if they want to.

I've seen a few groups doing nothing but spamming javelin during primetime with the intention of desyncing people.

Artisian0001 · August 22

I almost forgot about the newest displacement. The scribing skill with the cast time that can send multiple people flying, I remember how bad it was prior to being changed and I remember seeing some youtube videos on it when it was on PTS and it was absurd how far you could use it from and how many issues it caused. Displacement CC has never been healthy for the game. I get wanting to add new and unique options for CC, I would love that, by why are we introducing things and keeping things in the game, that the game cannot handle?

AngryPenguin · August 22

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

YandereGirlfriend · August 22

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

No, friend. There's no difference between an ability or a set that uses displacement. If one goes then the other must as well.

There is nothing inherently noble about Javelin spam or Chain spam.

LadyGP · August 22

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

All existing displacements should be turned into normal Stuns and Fears.

It definitely has caught-on that spamming displacements is a sure-fire way to de-sync your opponents and folk are abusing it like back in the old Snipe days when gankers knew that Snipe would de-sync their targets, making for easy and uncontested kills.

This. So much this.

AngryPenguin · August 22

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

No, friend. There's no difference between an ability or a set that uses displacement. If one goes then the other must as well.

There is nothing inherently noble about Javelin spam or Chain spam.

I mostly agree, but I don't get offended when someone uses a skill on my toon. I do get offended and outraged from free mindless janking me all around the map without any cost or skill involved.

There is a significant difference between a free pull set and skills that pull. (skill, specifically is the difference)

Artisian0001 · August 22

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

"free pull" dk chains is more of a "free pull" than any other pull set. pull sets require 5 pieces and has to be aimed, don't know why you are acting like it doesn't as one of your points. Looking at a player and pressing the button instantly hits someone if they are in range of you, pull sets don't lock on to people. If you want to say one is a lock on it's much more a skill than a set, I don't even know what that argument is. Regardless of you gripe, as long with everyone else's about rush because they are afraid of clicking their right mouse button for 1 second, all types of displacment should be removed. If you want to remove one then sure, remove the free insta lock CC, like chains and jav

AngryPenguin · August 22

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

"free pull" dk chains is more of a "free pull" than any other pull set. pull sets require 5 pieces and has to be aimed, don't know why you are acting like it doesn't as one of your points. Looking at a player and pressing the button instantly hits someone if they are in range of you, pull sets don't lock on to people. If you want to say one is a lock on it's much more a skill than a set, I don't even know what that argument is. Regardless of you gripe, as long with everyone else's about rush because they are afraid of clicking their right mouse button for 1 second, all types of displacment should be removed. If you want to remove one then sure, remove the free insta lock CC, like chains and jav

As explained above, chains takes up a skill slot, must be aimed, and it cost resources.

None of this is the case with free pull sets.

YandereGirlfriend · August 22

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

"free pull" dk chains is more of a "free pull" than any other pull set. pull sets require 5 pieces and has to be aimed, don't know why you are acting like it doesn't as one of your points. Looking at a player and pressing the button instantly hits someone if they are in range of you, pull sets don't lock on to people. If you want to say one is a lock on it's much more a skill than a set, I don't even know what that argument is. Regardless of you gripe, as long with everyone else's about rush because they are afraid of clicking their right mouse button for 1 second, all types of displacment should be removed. If you want to remove one then sure, remove the free insta lock CC, like chains and jav

As explained above, chains takes up a skill slot, must be aimed, and it cost resources.

None of this is the case with free pull sets.

I mean, you have to aim Rush of Agony as well (with the gap-close). And you only get 2x 5-piece slots so it's arguably an even bigger opportunity cost than slotting one skill out of five available.

Neither is particularly challenging or galaxy brain, though.

Which is also a PSA to remember back to the Vengeance tests when the meta was to simply outnumber the other side and then spam DK Chains on solos to pull them into instant, unavoidable death. Much skill, such wow.

Artisian0001 · August 22

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

"free pull" dk chains is more of a "free pull" than any other pull set. pull sets require 5 pieces and has to be aimed, don't know why you are acting like it doesn't as one of your points. Looking at a player and pressing the button instantly hits someone if they are in range of you, pull sets don't lock on to people. If you want to say one is a lock on it's much more a skill than a set, I don't even know what that argument is. Regardless of you gripe, as long with everyone else's about rush because they are afraid of clicking their right mouse button for 1 second, all types of displacment should be removed. If you want to remove one then sure, remove the free insta lock CC, like chains and jav

As explained above, chains takes up a skill slot, must be aimed, and it cost resources.

None of this is the case with free pull sets.

You aren't making any logical sense. One skill slot is worth a lot less than 5 set pieces. I would give up a skill slot for a 5 piece any day, so would everyone else. Both rush and Dark con have to be aimed. Dark con you quite literally have to aim where to put it, and rush takes you to where you go and leaves something on the floor at that location. Can you explain to me how rush, which can use DK chains to travel to the direction, isn't aimed, but dk chains the same skill that rush uses is? Stop trying to hijack posts to make them about your gripe with rush and arguing in bad faith to try to get a point across. All arguments like these do is show how weak your point is when you make things up. At least give logical reasons if you want something changed or all you do is get written off by any game dev. All displacement should be removed, if you want to remove only some sources, the sources that sacrifice way less to be used should be the ones gone away with first, like DK chains, like jav, not an entire 5 piece set that requires you to aim it or drops an AoE on that group that you can EASILY block.

AngryPenguin · August 22

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

"free pull" dk chains is more of a "free pull" than any other pull set. pull sets require 5 pieces and has to be aimed, don't know why you are acting like it doesn't as one of your points. Looking at a player and pressing the button instantly hits someone if they are in range of you, pull sets don't lock on to people. If you want to say one is a lock on it's much more a skill than a set, I don't even know what that argument is. Regardless of you gripe, as long with everyone else's about rush because they are afraid of clicking their right mouse button for 1 second, all types of displacment should be removed. If you want to remove one then sure, remove the free insta lock CC, like chains and jav

As explained above, chains takes up a skill slot, must be aimed, and it cost resources.

None of this is the case with free pull sets.

You aren't making any logical sense. One skill slot is worth a lot less than 5 set pieces. I would give up a skill slot for a 5 piece any day, so would everyone else. Both rush and Dark con have to be aimed. Dark con you quite literally have to aim where to put it, and rush takes you to where you go and leaves something on the floor at that location. Can you explain to me how rush, which can use DK chains to travel to the direction, isn't aimed, but dk chains the same skill that rush uses is? Stop trying to hijack posts to make them about your gripe with rush and arguing in bad faith to try to get a point across. All arguments like these do is show how weak your point is when you make things up. At least give logical reasons if you want something changed or all you do is get written off by any game dev. All displacement should be removed, if you want to remove only some sources, the sources that sacrifice way less to be used should be the ones gone away with first, like DK chains, like jav, not an entire 5 piece set that requires you to aim it or drops an AoE on that group that you can EASILY block.

Not when almost every other 5pc set gives better bonuses. The pull is the ONLY reason people wear RoA.

Maybe time for you to take some of your own advice.

People who use RoA will always find reasons why it's not so bad or somehow comparable to other skills and sets in the game when it just isn't.

Artisian0001 · August 22

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

"free pull" dk chains is more of a "free pull" than any other pull set. pull sets require 5 pieces and has to be aimed, don't know why you are acting like it doesn't as one of your points. Looking at a player and pressing the button instantly hits someone if they are in range of you, pull sets don't lock on to people. If you want to say one is a lock on it's much more a skill than a set, I don't even know what that argument is. Regardless of you gripe, as long with everyone else's about rush because they are afraid of clicking their right mouse button for 1 second, all types of displacment should be removed. If you want to remove one then sure, remove the free insta lock CC, like chains and jav

As explained above, chains takes up a skill slot, must be aimed, and it cost resources.

None of this is the case with free pull sets.

You aren't making any logical sense. One skill slot is worth a lot less than 5 set pieces. I would give up a skill slot for a 5 piece any day, so would everyone else. Both rush and Dark con have to be aimed. Dark con you quite literally have to aim where to put it, and rush takes you to where you go and leaves something on the floor at that location. Can you explain to me how rush, which can use DK chains to travel to the direction, isn't aimed, but dk chains the same skill that rush uses is? Stop trying to hijack posts to make them about your gripe with rush and arguing in bad faith to try to get a point across. All arguments like these do is show how weak your point is when you make things up. At least give logical reasons if you want something changed or all you do is get written off by any game dev. All displacement should be removed, if you want to remove only some sources, the sources that sacrifice way less to be used should be the ones gone away with first, like DK chains, like jav, not an entire 5 piece set that requires you to aim it or drops an AoE on that group that you can EASILY block.

Not when almost every other 5pc set gives better bonuses. The pull is the ONLY reason people wear RoA.

Yes the pull is the only reason why people run RoA. People only run transmutation because of the critical resist it gives. People only run Vicious Death to get an explosion when people die, people only run unrelenting grip to pull someone in. Just stating what something does isn't an argument. I agree, 5 piece sets give better bonuses, just like with literally every other 5 piece set, you run them the vast majority of the time for the 5th piece. You are making an argument for keeping rush when you say other 5 pieces are better. You are saying it is run solely for the pull and that takes up 5 slots of gear, dk chains takes up 1 skill slot.

I don't even run RoA, you just can't engage with a conversation. Your argument was to keep displacement but remove rush, I'm telling you why if anything should be removed (all should) the ones with less sacrificed should be first.

AngryPenguin · August 22

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

"free pull" dk chains is more of a "free pull" than any other pull set. pull sets require 5 pieces and has to be aimed, don't know why you are acting like it doesn't as one of your points. Looking at a player and pressing the button instantly hits someone if they are in range of you, pull sets don't lock on to people. If you want to say one is a lock on it's much more a skill than a set, I don't even know what that argument is. Regardless of you gripe, as long with everyone else's about rush because they are afraid of clicking their right mouse button for 1 second, all types of displacment should be removed. If you want to remove one then sure, remove the free insta lock CC, like chains and jav

As explained above, chains takes up a skill slot, must be aimed, and it cost resources.

None of this is the case with free pull sets.

You aren't making any logical sense. One skill slot is worth a lot less than 5 set pieces. I would give up a skill slot for a 5 piece any day, so would everyone else. Both rush and Dark con have to be aimed. Dark con you quite literally have to aim where to put it, and rush takes you to where you go and leaves something on the floor at that location. Can you explain to me how rush, which can use DK chains to travel to the direction, isn't aimed, but dk chains the same skill that rush uses is? Stop trying to hijack posts to make them about your gripe with rush and arguing in bad faith to try to get a point across. All arguments like these do is show how weak your point is when you make things up. At least give logical reasons if you want something changed or all you do is get written off by any game dev. All displacement should be removed, if you want to remove only some sources, the sources that sacrifice way less to be used should be the ones gone away with first, like DK chains, like jav, not an entire 5 piece set that requires you to aim it or drops an AoE on that group that you can EASILY block.

Not when almost every other 5pc set gives better bonuses. The pull is the ONLY reason people wear RoA.

Yes the pull is the only reason why people run RoA. People only run transmutation because of the critical resist it gives. People only run Vicious Death to get an explosion when people die, people only run unrelenting grip to pull someone in. Just stating what something does isn't an argument. I agree, 5 piece sets give better bonuses, just like with literally every other 5 piece set, you run them the vast majority of the time for the 5th piece. You are making an argument for keeping rush when you say other 5 pieces are better. You are saying it is run solely for the pull and that takes up 5 slots of gear, dk chains takes up 1 skill slot.

I don't even run RoA, you just can't engage with a conversation. Your argument was to keep displacement but remove rush, I'm telling you why if anything should be removed (all should) the ones with less sacrificed should be first.

We've had chains and other displacement abilities in Cyrodiil since day 1. There was never a problem with toxic janking around in PvP until Dark Convergence and RoA. Chains has never been a problem because it's single target as opposed to a massive AOE that pulls multiple people at the same time...usually into a VD bomb.

Trying to make the case that a single target skill like chains or javelin that costs resources is equivalent to a free, mindless multi pull AOE is never going to fly.

Artisian0001 · August 22

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

"free pull" dk chains is more of a "free pull" than any other pull set. pull sets require 5 pieces and has to be aimed, don't know why you are acting like it doesn't as one of your points. Looking at a player and pressing the button instantly hits someone if they are in range of you, pull sets don't lock on to people. If you want to say one is a lock on it's much more a skill than a set, I don't even know what that argument is. Regardless of you gripe, as long with everyone else's about rush because they are afraid of clicking their right mouse button for 1 second, all types of displacment should be removed. If you want to remove one then sure, remove the free insta lock CC, like chains and jav

As explained above, chains takes up a skill slot, must be aimed, and it cost resources.

None of this is the case with free pull sets.

You aren't making any logical sense. One skill slot is worth a lot less than 5 set pieces. I would give up a skill slot for a 5 piece any day, so would everyone else. Both rush and Dark con have to be aimed. Dark con you quite literally have to aim where to put it, and rush takes you to where you go and leaves something on the floor at that location. Can you explain to me how rush, which can use DK chains to travel to the direction, isn't aimed, but dk chains the same skill that rush uses is? Stop trying to hijack posts to make them about your gripe with rush and arguing in bad faith to try to get a point across. All arguments like these do is show how weak your point is when you make things up. At least give logical reasons if you want something changed or all you do is get written off by any game dev. All displacement should be removed, if you want to remove only some sources, the sources that sacrifice way less to be used should be the ones gone away with first, like DK chains, like jav, not an entire 5 piece set that requires you to aim it or drops an AoE on that group that you can EASILY block.

Not when almost every other 5pc set gives better bonuses. The pull is the ONLY reason people wear RoA.

Yes the pull is the only reason why people run RoA. People only run transmutation because of the critical resist it gives. People only run Vicious Death to get an explosion when people die, people only run unrelenting grip to pull someone in. Just stating what something does isn't an argument. I agree, 5 piece sets give better bonuses, just like with literally every other 5 piece set, you run them the vast majority of the time for the 5th piece. You are making an argument for keeping rush when you say other 5 pieces are better. You are saying it is run solely for the pull and that takes up 5 slots of gear, dk chains takes up 1 skill slot.

I don't even run RoA, you just can't engage with a conversation. Your argument was to keep displacement but remove rush, I'm telling you why if anything should be removed (all should) the ones with less sacrificed should be first.

We've had chains and other displacement abilities in Cyrodiil since day 1. There was never a problem with toxic janking around in PvP until Dark Convergence and RoA. Chains has never been a problem because it's single target as opposed to a massive AOE that pulls multiple people at the same time...usually into a VD bomb.

Trying to make the case that a single target skill like chains or javelin that costs resources is equivalent to a free, mindless multi pull AOE is never going to fly.

Wrong. Something being in the game since day 1 doesn't mean anything for the health of the game and desyncing. RoA is only an issue to people who do not hold block when the giant delay is added and the vast majority of skilled players have no issue dealing with it. All displacement causes desync issues and that is the problem. You keep saying free but don't substantiate it at all, you just give complete non sequiturs in an attempt to score a point but you aren't saying anything. The sky is blue therefor DK chains should be removed is the equivalent to what you are saying. Again, all displacement causes issues and should be removed, revamped, fixed, or disabled against other players.

Teeba_Shei · August 22

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Any set that moves another players location on the map should be removed from the game. Free pull sets are an abomination in PvP environments and any dev worth anything knows why without having to be told.

Anything that moves another players location on the map should take up a skill slot, have to be aimed and cast, and cost resources. For example, DK chains are acceptable because it takes up a skill slot, has to be aimed, and costs resources. This is acceptable in a PvP environment. Free pull sets are just inexcusably poor design.

"free pull" dk chains is more of a "free pull" than any other pull set. pull sets require 5 pieces and has to be aimed, don't know why you are acting like it doesn't as one of your points. Looking at a player and pressing the button instantly hits someone if they are in range of you, pull sets don't lock on to people. If you want to say one is a lock on it's much more a skill than a set, I don't even know what that argument is. Regardless of you gripe, as long with everyone else's about rush because they are afraid of clicking their right mouse button for 1 second, all types of displacment should be removed. If you want to remove one then sure, remove the free insta lock CC, like chains and jav

As explained above, chains takes up a skill slot, must be aimed, and it cost resources.

None of this is the case with free pull sets.

You aren't making any logical sense. One skill slot is worth a lot less than 5 set pieces. I would give up a skill slot for a 5 piece any day, so would everyone else. Both rush and Dark con have to be aimed. Dark con you quite literally have to aim where to put it, and rush takes you to where you go and leaves something on the floor at that location. Can you explain to me how rush, which can use DK chains to travel to the direction, isn't aimed, but dk chains the same skill that rush uses is? Stop trying to hijack posts to make them about your gripe with rush and arguing in bad faith to try to get a point across. All arguments like these do is show how weak your point is when you make things up. At least give logical reasons if you want something changed or all you do is get written off by any game dev. All displacement should be removed, if you want to remove only some sources, the sources that sacrifice way less to be used should be the ones gone away with first, like DK chains, like jav, not an entire 5 piece set that requires you to aim it or drops an AoE on that group that you can EASILY block.

Not when almost every other 5pc set gives better bonuses. The pull is the ONLY reason people wear RoA.

Yes the pull is the only reason why people run RoA. People only run transmutation because of the critical resist it gives. People only run Vicious Death to get an explosion when people die, people only run unrelenting grip to pull someone in. Just stating what something does isn't an argument. I agree, 5 piece sets give better bonuses, just like with literally every other 5 piece set, you run them the vast majority of the time for the 5th piece. You are making an argument for keeping rush when you say other 5 pieces are better. You are saying it is run solely for the pull and that takes up 5 slots of gear, dk chains takes up 1 skill slot.

I don't even run RoA, you just can't engage with a conversation. Your argument was to keep displacement but remove rush, I'm telling you why if anything should be removed (all should) the ones with less sacrificed should be first.

We've had chains and other displacement abilities in Cyrodiil since day 1. There was never a problem with toxic janking around in PvP until Dark Convergence and RoA. Chains has never been a problem because it's single target as opposed to a massive AOE that pulls multiple people at the same time...usually into a VD bomb.

Trying to make the case that a single target skill like chains or javelin that costs resources is equivalent to a free, mindless multi pull AOE is never going to fly.

I don't think there is really a problem with those AOE pull sets. They serve a purpose in dealing with large groups, they are telegraphed, and have easy counterplay in the form of blocking. They also don't cause your character to become desynced.

Javelin type abilities have always been used for trolling since day 1 of cyrodiil. Its not as bad now to be pulled because you can actually escape, but in the old days if you were pulled towards the enemy zerg it was a guaranteed death. The same thing was true in vengeance campaign with pulls.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · August 22

No, knocking people off objects to their death is one of the fun things about PVP, it shouldn't be removed.

The desync issues should be fixed though.

Artisian0001 · August 22

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

No, knocking people off objects to their death is one of the fun things about PVP, it shouldn't be removed.

The desync issues should be fixed though.

If they fixed it I would have zero issue with it working that way, I just think fixing it would come long after disabling it.

Teeba_Shei · August 22

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

No, knocking people off objects to their death is one of the fun things about PVP, it shouldn't be removed.

The desync issues should be fixed though.

How confident are you that they could fix the issue? It only seems to happen during lag.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · August 22

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

No, knocking people off objects to their death is one of the fun things about PVP, it shouldn't be removed.

The desync issues should be fixed though.

How confident are you that they could fix the issue? It only seems to happen during lag.

Well it's been at least 7 years since the issues started happening so perhaps there's a chance

Still even with the bugs I think we should stop advocating for more skill removals from PVP and start adding back in some of the fun instead.