The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Maintenance for the week of April 22:
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
• [IN PROGRESS] PC/Mac: NA megaserver for maintenance – April 25, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 2:00PM EDT (18:00 UTC)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
The inevitable Necrom Zone Name Thread
APGaming
✭✭✭
Hi everyone, it's time to bring up this discussion again:
Original discussion:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626220/eso-necroms-zone-has-the-wrong-title/p1
One of Necrom's zones has the wrong title. It's lorebreaking on multiple levels, and you guessed it: it's false advertising. The "Telvanni Peninsula" is not the correct name for this zone with its current boundaries (given ZOS's release model boundaries will not change). According to the recent Loremaster's Archive on House Telvanni, "It is called 'the Telvanni Peninsula,' for the house controls the whole of the territory from its base to its tip, crowned by the island palace of Port Telvannis beyond." This contradicts what we see in game, for what we currently see on PTS is the LOWER Telvanni Peninsula. It does not include the top half referenced in the Archive.
Here’s where the false advertising comes in… they are selling us THE Telvanni Peninsula, but what we receive is not THE Telvanni Peninsula, it’s only part of it. Let's take a trip back to 2019. ZOS sold the Elsweyr Chapter, and the associated zone was originally titled "Elsweyr" on the map screen and "Northern Elsweyr" in the loading screen. After many threads of people complaining they felt cheated because they didn’t get the whole of Elsweyr (and the addition of the “Southern Elsweyr” zone), they finally fixed this issue, with both names being fixed to “Northern Elsweyr”. Now we will have a similar issue where only a portion of the peninsula is being marketed as the whole thing… that brings me to my next point, it’s not even a peninsula!
Geography wise, the zone title is also incorrect. The zone is on a peninsula, sure. But the zone itself is NOT a peninsula. A peninsula is surrounded by water on three sides, by definition. This zone, with its current boundaries, is more of an isthmus if anything. Refer to the zone map.
Let’s look at some real world examples: Florida is a peninsula, and for the sake of this argument, we have two states, North and South Florida. North Florida is not a peninsula, because its border ends its land ownership before it gets surrounded by water on three sides. South Florida is a peninsula, because it is surrounded by water on three sides. An isthmus is something like Panama, it connects two landmasses together and is surrounded by water on two sides. I’m not suggesting we call the zone the “Telvanni Isthmus” though, that’s ridiculous, luckily there are other lore friendly options we can choose between. The “Telvanni Coast” is a frequent nickname of the region, and in lore, could be written in as a sub-region of the greater peninsula. However, the easier and more familiar (Elsweyr situation) fix, is the “Lower Telvanni Peninsula”. This leaves the possibility for ZOS to add the “Upper Telvanni Peninsula” in the future and not have a naming conflict (because if not the Telvanni Peninsula, what would you call that northern region?). This actually matters to many in the lore community as it is just geographically incorrect in its current state.
We have an opportunity to fix this NOW, during the PTS cycle. Not a year from now when we have a naming conflict with the northern half. With that, I rest my case, and ask for help from @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Michael and literally any community member that can share this and get the attention of the devs.
Thanks!
Edit: To be clear, I'm not expecting any voice acting changes. It's more from a map and game function standpoint than the NPCs acknowledging the borders. Some lorebooks as to where Indoril went and also explaining that this region is only part of the greater Telvanni Peninsula would be splendid, but nothing crazy is required to make this change happen. It's just a few text additions.
Edited by APGaming on April 18, 2023 4:30PM Original discussion:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626220/eso-necroms-zone-has-the-wrong-title/p1
One of Necrom's zones has the wrong title. It's lorebreaking on multiple levels, and you guessed it: it's false advertising. The "Telvanni Peninsula" is not the correct name for this zone with its current boundaries (given ZOS's release model boundaries will not change). According to the recent Loremaster's Archive on House Telvanni, "It is called 'the Telvanni Peninsula,' for the house controls the whole of the territory from its base to its tip, crowned by the island palace of Port Telvannis beyond." This contradicts what we see in game, for what we currently see on PTS is the LOWER Telvanni Peninsula. It does not include the top half referenced in the Archive.
Here’s where the false advertising comes in… they are selling us THE Telvanni Peninsula, but what we receive is not THE Telvanni Peninsula, it’s only part of it. Let's take a trip back to 2019. ZOS sold the Elsweyr Chapter, and the associated zone was originally titled "Elsweyr" on the map screen and "Northern Elsweyr" in the loading screen. After many threads of people complaining they felt cheated because they didn’t get the whole of Elsweyr (and the addition of the “Southern Elsweyr” zone), they finally fixed this issue, with both names being fixed to “Northern Elsweyr”. Now we will have a similar issue where only a portion of the peninsula is being marketed as the whole thing… that brings me to my next point, it’s not even a peninsula!
Geography wise, the zone title is also incorrect. The zone is on a peninsula, sure. But the zone itself is NOT a peninsula. A peninsula is surrounded by water on three sides, by definition. This zone, with its current boundaries, is more of an isthmus if anything. Refer to the zone map.
Let’s look at some real world examples: Florida is a peninsula, and for the sake of this argument, we have two states, North and South Florida. North Florida is not a peninsula, because its border ends its land ownership before it gets surrounded by water on three sides. South Florida is a peninsula, because it is surrounded by water on three sides. An isthmus is something like Panama, it connects two landmasses together and is surrounded by water on two sides. I’m not suggesting we call the zone the “Telvanni Isthmus” though, that’s ridiculous, luckily there are other lore friendly options we can choose between. The “Telvanni Coast” is a frequent nickname of the region, and in lore, could be written in as a sub-region of the greater peninsula. However, the easier and more familiar (Elsweyr situation) fix, is the “Lower Telvanni Peninsula”. This leaves the possibility for ZOS to add the “Upper Telvanni Peninsula” in the future and not have a naming conflict (because if not the Telvanni Peninsula, what would you call that northern region?). This actually matters to many in the lore community as it is just geographically incorrect in its current state.
We have an opportunity to fix this NOW, during the PTS cycle. Not a year from now when we have a naming conflict with the northern half. With that, I rest my case, and ask for help from @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Michael and literally any community member that can share this and get the attention of the devs.
Thanks!
Edit: To be clear, I'm not expecting any voice acting changes. It's more from a map and game function standpoint than the NPCs acknowledging the borders. Some lorebooks as to where Indoril went and also explaining that this region is only part of the greater Telvanni Peninsula would be splendid, but nothing crazy is required to make this change happen. It's just a few text additions.
12
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NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭According to the recent Loremaster's Archive on House Telvanni, "It is called 'the Telvanni Peninsula,' for the house controls the whole of the territory from its base to its tip, crowned by the island palace of Port Telvannis beyond."
I'm curious where ZOS think House Indoril are.[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!11 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭Hi everyone, it's time to bring up this discussion again:
Original discussion:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626220/eso-necroms-zone-has-the-wrong-title/p1
One of Necrom's zones has the wrong title. It's lorebreaking on multiple levels, and you guessed it: it's false advertising. The "Telvanni Peninsula" is not the correct name for this zone with its current boundaries (given ZOS's release model this will not change). According to the recent Loremaster's Archive on House Telvanni, "It is called 'the Telvanni Peninsula,' for the house controls the whole of the territory from its base to its tip, crowned by the island palace of Port Telvannis beyond." This contradicts what we see in game, for what we currently see on PTS is the LOWER Telvanni Peninsula. It does not include the top half referenced in the Archive.
Here’s where the false advertising comes in… they are selling us THE Telvanni Peninsula, but what we receive is not THE Telvanni Peninsula, it’s only part of it. Let's take a trip back to 2019. ZOS sold the Elsweyr Chapter, and the associated zone was originally titled "Elsweyr" on the map screen and "Northern Elsweyr" in the loading screen. After many threads of people complaining they felt cheated because they didn’t get the whole of Elsweyr (and the addition of the “Southern Elsweyr” zone), they finally fixed this issue, with both names being fixed to “Northern Elsweyr”. Now we will have a similar issue where only a portion of the peninsula is being marketed as the whole thing… that brings me to my next point, it’s not even a peninsula!
Geography wise, the zone title is also incorrect. The zone is on a peninsula, sure. But the zone itself is NOT a peninsula. A peninsula is surrounded by water on three sides, by definition. This zone, with its current boundaries, is more of an isthmus if anything. Refer to the zone map.
Let’s look at some real world examples: Florida is a peninsula, and for the sake of this argument, we have two states, North and South Florida. North Florida is not a peninsula, because its border ends its land ownership before it gets surrounded by water on three sides. South Florida is a peninsula, because it is surrounded by water on three sides. An isthmus is something like Panama, it connects two landmasses together and is surrounded by water on two sides. I’m not suggesting we call the zone the “Telvanni Isthmus” though, that’s ridiculous, luckily there are other lore friendly options we can choose between. The “Telvanni Coast” is a frequent nickname of the region, and in lore, could be written in as a sub-region of the greater peninsula. However, the easier and more familiar (Elsweyr situation) fix, is the “Lower Telvanni Peninsula”. This leaves the possibility for ZOS to add the “Upper Telvanni Peninsula” in the future and not have a naming conflict (because if not the Telvanni Peninsula, what would you call that northern region?). This actually matters to many in the lore community as it is just geographically incorrect in its current state.
We have an opportunity to fix this NOW, during the PTS cycle. Not a year from now when we have a naming conflict with the northern half. With that, I rest my case, and ask for help from @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Michael and literally any community member that can share this and get the attention of the devs.
Thanks!
You aren’t wrong necrom is not in the telvanni peninsula no idea why they keep using this term when it does not reside there.5 -
Vylaera✭✭✭✭✭
✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »According to the recent Loremaster's Archive on House Telvanni, "It is called 'the Telvanni Peninsula,' for the house controls the whole of the territory from its base to its tip, crowned by the island palace of Port Telvannis beyond."
I'm curious where ZOS think House Indoril are.
That ship has sailed, unfortunately, but it's still a problem.
Edited by Vylaera on April 17, 2023 8:18PMVy • lae • ra6 -
Thal_J✭✭✭✭i'll be honest when i saw the marketing for this year's overland zone my heart just sunk. the telvanni peninsula in lore is supposed to be from the bottom of the inlet where necrom is, to the top, where port telvannis is. not where zos have put it.
i'm struggling to keep this short. so in essence:
- they retconned where the peninsula is (it it NOT the full eastern arm)
- they took "telvanni peninsula" too literally (made it all literally just telvanni, forgot about indoril entirely)
- named the not-a-peninsula zone the telvanni peninsula... which is just.. no
this misunderstanding by zos has effectively completely erased indoril content. that region they're calling the telvanni peninsula? it's actually the Indoril district. the TP is ABOVE that area. and they've retconned it all to be telvanni after taking a literal approach the the name.
i just feel so demotiviated with this year. i wish i could enjoy it but with all the "remember morrowind?" and then mess up morrowind in a way that any real fan would instantly point out.. its just falls so flat.Edited by Thal_J on April 17, 2023 8:20PM14 -
TheNuminous1✭✭✭✭✭
✭I personally find this very important. ESO is currently the only one expanding and carrying the lore of this Universe. They need to be more accurate with naming and lore15 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭TheNuminous1 wrote: »I personally find this very important. ESO is currently the only one expanding and carrying the lore of this Universe. They need to be more accurate with naming and lore
This is the reason why fans say eso is “fan fiction” and is “not canon” and refuse to accept it as such.
To me it’s whatever Bethesda / zenimax say is canon is canon even their mistakes sadly. It’s a shame zos seem to play fast and loose with what BGS crested.
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Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with the comments in this thread.
I hear the argument that "things change, and maps can be wrong".
But if there's no story or exploration infrastructure to support that, it feels like a handwave. People don't like handwaves- they're here for the rich lore, world building, and experience of immersion.
Its like saying "stories happen". What things changed? These are big, geopolitical events (surely full of epic drama) that are apparently defining Tamriel in the 2nd era. You just have to define it. Were these Indoril lands? What happened? Who was involved? Can we get a sense of this change in the landscape?
I love the old vignette encounters in Morrowind chapter- where one random house-mer would encounter another. If they happened to be of a different house, they would fight to the death. This gave me a sense of the brutal rivalry behind the houses that supported and gave weight to the tension perhaps otherwise not immediately apparent. And there are many examples of places you can explore in the world to show structures being repurposed, ruins of older cultures being built upon by newer. In these ways, we can viscerally experience "things change, different people have different ideas about territory".
I think that "unreliable narrator" and "1000 years in the past" are double-edged swords. You can obviously get a lot of narrative freedom, but they are story devices intended to add depth to the world primarily, and overuse, without any substance to explore behind the unreliability - risks cheapening it and can lead to a cynicism.
As for the name "Telvanni Peninsula", it makes sense that any one paying attention is going to have some questions about how its named. Its like saying calling a chapter "Western Skyrim", then having only the very western sliver of Skyrim there, and 90% of the zone being in High Rock. Of course that's gonna cause some raised eyebrows.
This is just my thoughts on the matter- why it matters to people (beyond what's actually been addressed). Its criticism, but I still love ESO and can clearly see the passion for the lore there.
7 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »According to the recent Loremaster's Archive on House Telvanni, "It is called 'the Telvanni Peninsula,' for the house controls the whole of the territory from its base to its tip, crowned by the island palace of Port Telvannis beyond."
I'm curious where ZOS think House Indoril are.
I think the obvious reason is that they wanted to reuse the Telvanni assets, given that the main focus of the chapter is Apocrypha. Extending Telvanni holding down to Necrom seemed fitting in that sense, though it raises the question why set the chapter around Necrom at all then.
But I had the same thought about Elsweyr - why set the chapter around Rimmen when you don't want to make it an Akaviri city and instead turn it into a Khajiit kingdom, the capital of Anequina no less?
I'll just have to handwave it away as one of those curiosities of history, like Falkreath being a part of Cyrodiil several times. Maybe the actual content will give some answers, though I'm not hopeful.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.3 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seeing the zone map for the first time, the coast seems incredibly jagged. And why is there no road going north to the rest of the peninsula?CP1,900+ Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!4 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭Does anybody happen to know the differences between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th eras?
Alot can happen in that amount of time.3 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.
Thank you for your understanding.
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NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »Does anybody happen to know the differences between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th eras?
Alot can happen in that amount of time.
Not this much. Even less so with long living races like dunmer.[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!3 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm curious why ZOS has retconned the Indoril people out of TES like this. Do you think it's deliberate, for some reason we're not yet privy to, or by accident?RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.3 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm curious why ZOS has retconned the Indoril people out of TES like this. Do you think it's deliberate, for some reason we're not yet privy to, or by accident?
I think its just that ZOS comes up with an idea- Telvanni; Necrom; Apocrypha- and roll with it. Telvanni are cool, they're in this broad area, Necrom seems badass, lock it in. Unless its a terribly egregious lore-clash that can't be "massaged", I think at that point, its going to go ahead.
Sometimes I think that it becomes apparent that some lore aspect doesn't fit well, or something has been neglected once the ball is already rolling, but ZOS would probably feel that given borders change, and the political situations shift, they're free to not worry about that too much. I think that's fair.
I also think, from our perspective, it can feel like they've just railroaded over some significant lore thing- something our stories incorporate, we've been excited to see forever,- House Indoril are fascinating, and they represent a story yet to be told. And this is the land in which we would imagine them to be. A lot of people who care about that would find that unsatisfying. People want to feel like ZOS is cognisant and all over the details. And sometimes it feels like they aren't, on some things we think are important. Which leads to a lack of trust and a cynicism. I get it- I feel the same way about the Direnni, or their apparent displacement by the ubiquitous Aylieds.
I personally feel like ZOS should have the right to take for granted changes in borders, etc. I don't think they could have made this game without setting it 1000 years in the past, in order to give them SOME degree of freedom and space to create something. OTOH, I want to see those things done thoughtfully. It may not be the time to tell the story of House Indoril with a full suite of new architecture and sweeping questlines, but for me, personally, I really want to know what "borders change" actually looks like in the context of the Indoril heartlands.
Full disclosure; I haven't been on the PTS- I don't know if the things I wish for actually have been addressed in any sort of way. I also think that ZOS have done an amazing job with Necrom city, from what I've seen- the attention to detail is fantastic, so its clear the heart is there, so its best to keep it positive.
Well. Except for Aylied High Rock. ZOS, if you ever want to go back and update assets, please feel free to retcon the hell out of "Cyrodiil, but in the north-west" High Rock and give us some Direnni heritage. Mostly dreaming. But seriously.
Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on April 19, 2023 2:00PM1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »Does anybody happen to know the differences between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th eras?
Alot can happen in that amount of time.
I think a lot of people assume that nothing much changes, and I have seen references to long lived mer races being the reason. Tamriel has always seemed to me to be a deceptively stagnant place, but it is not. It is apparent that there are political changes, and even changes in opinions about things, that are reflected in names and boundaries, whether on a map or not.0 -
sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭We are in the middle of the second era, before every other game ever. Its possible telvanni has a strong hold on the area now. Lore =/= LawAt least 3 of each class. PVPing Since IC.1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We are in the middle of the second era, before every other game ever. Its possible telvanni has a strong hold on the area now. Lore =/= Law
Indoril was the dominant house in the First Era and the first 900 years of the Second Era. They still control the southern half of Morrowind, including Necrom.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We are in the middle of the second era, before every other game ever. Its possible telvanni has a strong hold on the area now. Lore =/= Law
Indoril was the dominant house in the First Era and the first 900 years of the Second Era. They still control the southern half of Morrowind, including Necrom.
Source?0 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We are in the middle of the second era, before every other game ever. Its possible telvanni has a strong hold on the area now. Lore =/= Law
Indoril was the dominant house in the First Era and the first 900 years of the Second Era. They still control the southern half of Morrowind, including Necrom.
Source?
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:House_IndorilRIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We are in the middle of the second era, before every other game ever. Its possible telvanni has a strong hold on the area now. Lore =/= Law
Indoril was the dominant house in the First Era and the first 900 years of the Second Era. They still control the southern half of Morrowind, including Necrom.
Source?
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:House_Indoril
Thanks. Obviously, not dominant enough in the middle 2nd Era in the Telvanni Peninsula region to the east of Bal Foyen and Deshaan.Edited by Elsonso on April 19, 2023 11:02PM0 -
kaushad✭✭✭✭Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »I personally feel like ZOS should have the right to take for granted changes in borders, etc. I don't think they could have made this game without setting it 1000 years in the past, in order to give them SOME degree of freedom and space to create something. OTOH, I want to see those things done thoughtfully. It may not be the time to tell the story of House Indoril with a full suite of new architecture and sweeping questlines, but for me, personally, I really want to know what "borders change" actually looks like in the context of the Indoril heartlands.
What time would be right to tell that story? In the 4th Era, they merged entirely with a new, daedric cult. We're not going to see the House Indoril that was described in TESIII and PGE1 in any game set after TESV, because it doesn't exist then. How many more games are we going to get set before the Red Year?1 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »I personally feel like ZOS should have the right to take for granted changes in borders, etc. I don't think they could have made this game without setting it 1000 years in the past, in order to give them SOME degree of freedom and space to create something. OTOH, I want to see those things done thoughtfully. It may not be the time to tell the story of House Indoril with a full suite of new architecture and sweeping questlines, but for me, personally, I really want to know what "borders change" actually looks like in the context of the Indoril heartlands.
What time would be right to tell that story? In the 4th Era, they merged entirely with a new, daedric cult. We're not going to see the House Indoril that was described in TESIII and PGE1 in any game set after TESV, because it doesn't exist then. How many more games are we going to get set before the Red Year?
Yeah, its a good point, and that's something I really think that ZOS should think about when changing things up.
I'm not arguing with you- I feel the same way about giving away half of High Rock to the Orcs such that it results in a situation where the Breton story then needs to be told on a random island completely divorced from the land that defines them. As you know (from your previous posts), we're still hoping that ZOS will see the potential in places like Jehanna, Cloud Springs and Dunlain as opportunities to reprise a little more of High Rock (beyond the Iliac) for the Bretons- its clear that despite last year's deep dive, there is important story that their fans dearly want them to tell. Eventually. Whether ZOS considers Jehanna a place they could explore is still debatable (and very much debated)- they may think that its covered (with the retconned docks) but the possibility of the city has a bit of a cult following in the lore community and I still hope that ZOS is listening to that.
On House Indoril, my lore-foo is relatively weak, though, so I put this out there, entirely hoping to be shown if my thoughts are misguided: would it be fair to think that ZOS consider House Indoril covered by base game story? People seem to assume that the base-game Dunmer architecture is Indoril, which would imply a large area that must have been culturally contiguous across the Deshaan and Stonefalls (historically)*, even if it is not currently politically so. Additionally, the heads of House Indoril feature as central characters in parts of the base-game story.
Admittedly they feel like a stand-in for generic Dunmer, base-game; perhaps what's missing more was just story detail? And if so, would that be improvable? Depending on Matt Firor's letter to the community a few month's back- capitalising on the worldspace they've already done is something they want to do. Could there be scope in that?
Beyond that, would well-written, well-thought-out and intelligent lore included in the antiquities system, lorebooks, vignettes, NPC dialogue, Places of Interest work towards remedying the situation? Like, giving us various ways to vicariously *experience* "borders change". Is House Indoril waning in power during this period? Or are they actually just at a point before their greatest extent during the 3rd era. Even then, surely we should be able to see seeds of that. In Vvardenfell, where the territory seems to be hotly contested, lone Telvanni mages will attack a lone Redoran in the wilderness. Do similar things happen between Hlaalu and Indoril wanderers? I don't know, these are just cheesy examples of the sort of things I think could be employed to demonstrate the story they may not be able to tell right now in the traditional way (direct quests, location objectives, main story e.g.).Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on April 21, 2023 4:22AM0 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »Does anybody happen to know the differences between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th eras?
Alot can happen in that amount of time.
I think a lot of people assume that nothing much changes, and I have seen references to long lived mer races being the reason. Tamriel has always seemed to me to be a deceptively stagnant place, but it is not. It is apparent that there are political changes, and even changes in opinions about things, that are reflected in names and boundaries, whether on a map or not.
Change is the better basis for a story, and is more believable, but then you actually have to tell that story. Or it looks like just another handwave.
ZOS have made blatant mistakes in the past. Its understandable, but it also results in mistrust and cynicism. What I'm seeing time and again, here, and always in discussions about ZOS' handling of the lore, is "change" and "unreliable narrator" are just used to handwave something they simply forgot.
I think what people are expressing in these sorts of discussions isn't a need for nothing to ever change, but for that change to happen in an intelligible, thoughtful way. People want ZOS to be cognisant of the lore that defines the IP they're handling.
EDIT: I think that a lot of heart and effort goes into making lore work in ESO, I don't want to just bring up their mistakes.Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on April 21, 2023 4:50AM2 -
Tensar✭✭✭✭This zone is disappointing. It's very small and it dosn't make sense.
We can see BaarDau even if on the map mountains are supposed to block the view. And the zone map don't even look like the place on the Tamriel Map.4 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭So I just checked uesp now shows necrom is being in the “Telvanni peninsula” im assuming this is another full blown retconEdited by isadoraisacat on April 25, 2023 8:12PM0
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »So I just checked uesp now shows necrom is being in the “Telvanni peninsula” im assuming this is another full blown retcon
Anyone can edit UESP, just like Wikipedia.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.0 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »So I just checked uesp now shows necrom is being in the “Telvanni peninsula” im assuming this is another full blown retcon
Anyone can edit UESP, just like Wikipedia.
I’m aware. However they go through a review process just like Wikipedia. And the site is ran by elder scrolls fanatics.
Clearly someone thought change should be made that contradict what they said before bringing on the possibility of a retcon. Just curious if it will be addressed.
I can change Wikipedia today and say the president is a purple alien from China it doesn’t mean it won’t be reviewed and changed back. This is uesp everything is reviewed and approved for edit and it’s all fans Wikipedia is an all purpose site not a niche.
Soooo not really relevant.
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Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »So I just checked uesp now shows necrom is being in the “Telvanni peninsula” im assuming this is another full blown retcon
Anyone can edit UESP, just like Wikipedia.
I’m aware. However they go through a review process just like Wikipedia. And the site is ran by elder scrolls fanatics.
Clearly someone thought change should be made that contradict what they said before bringing on the possibility of a retcon. Just curious if it will be addressed.
I can change Wikipedia today and say the president is a purple alien from China it doesn’t mean it won’t be reviewed and changed back. This is uesp everything is reviewed and approved for edit and it’s all fans Wikipedia is an all purpose site not a niche.
Soooo not really relevant.
There is also a division in the lore community where ESO lore is concerned.
Moving on...
The lore in Elder Scrolls changes because it is not guaranteed to be correct. If some in-game book says something, or some NPC says something, or something appears on a studio published map somewhere, it is canon across all the games, but not necessarily accurate to the highest standards.
Most of what we know about the Telvanni Peninsula comes from these sorts of sources, and none of the stuff is guaranteed to be accurate to the level we are seeing in the upcoming chapter. The only game that can even dictate what we should be seeing in the Necrom Chapter is TES Arena. That game was a stand alone game and not designed to be part of a series of games and the fidelity is very low compared to contemporary games. All of the other games do not concern themselves with this area of Tamriel, outside of the above mentioned sources.
While you keep referring to the idea that there is a "retcon", what I see is simply that the truth has been revealed. At least, the truth as it exists in the middle of the 2nd Era. It does not mean that other lore is wrong. If lore from one of the other games contradicts, it could simply be that the truth changes after the events of ESO and that lore reflects those changes. Even if that is not the case, Elder Scrolls lore allows for both to co-exist, as there is no one who is tasked with making sure that every document written is true and accurate and does not contradict other documents.
Edited by Elsonso on April 26, 2023 12:36PM2 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »So I just checked uesp now shows necrom is being in the “Telvanni peninsula” im assuming this is another full blown retcon
Anyone can edit UESP, just like Wikipedia.
I’m aware. However they go through a review process just like Wikipedia. And the site is ran by elder scrolls fanatics.
Clearly someone thought change should be made that contradict what they said before bringing on the possibility of a retcon. Just curious if it will be addressed.
I can change Wikipedia today and say the president is a purple alien from China it doesn’t mean it won’t be reviewed and changed back. This is uesp everything is reviewed and approved for edit and it’s all fans Wikipedia is an all purpose site not a niche.
Soooo not really relevant.
There is also a division in the lore community where ESO lore is concerned.
Moving on...
The lore in Elder Scrolls changes because it is not guaranteed to be correct. If some in-game book says something, or some NPC says something, or something appears on a studio published map somewhere, it is canon across all the games, but not necessarily accurate to the highest standards.
Most of what we know about the Telvanni Peninsula comes from these sorts of sources, and none of the stuff is guaranteed to be accurate to the level we are seeing in the upcoming chapter. The only game that can even dictate what we should be seeing in the Necrom Chapter is TES Arena. That game was a stand alone game and not designed to be part of a series of games and the fidelity is very low compared to contemporary games. All of the other games do not concern themselves with this area of Tamriel, outside of the above mentioned sources.
While you keep referring to the idea that there is a "retcon", what I see is simply that the truth has been revealed. At least, the truth as it exists in the middle of the 2nd Era. It does not mean that other lore is wrong. If lore from one of the other games contradicts, it could simply be that the truth changes after the events of ESO and that lore reflects those changes. Even if that is not the case, Elder Scrolls lore allows for both to co-exist, as there is no one who is tasked with making sure that every document written is true and accurate and does not contradict other documents.
[snip]
Everyone knows Bethesda / zos retcon based on what works for them at the time. That’s why oblivion is a wish version of lord of the rings based on a retcon… could have been more alien and unique but nah they went with boring.
The maps are inconsistent.
I love this series but the lore is not consistent. It’s something that people need to accept something’s are straight up retcons. Look at the Khajiit culture and “fur stocks” they had to do what they had to do to make more interesting race and retcon the thunder cats looking ones form tes 1 and 2 and explain it away as a fur stock.
[edited for minor trolling]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 30, 2023 4:53PM0 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Even if that is not the case, Elder Scrolls lore allows for both to co-exist, as there is no one who is tasked with making sure that every document written is true and accurate and does not contradict other documents.
But there is at least one person at Zenimax with the job title of "Loremaster," meaning someone is working a minimum of 40 hours a week making sure that the Elder Scrolls lore (should) make sense.
Edited by Jaraal on April 26, 2023 3:36PMRIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.1
