Been trying out WoW for a few days

MudcrabAttack · November 2022

ZOS should update the system to allow weapon enchantments to proc from class skills. In the current state everyone always has to use a weapon AOE DOT skill to proc a back bar enchantment or suffer a big loss in damage

fizzylu · November 2022

ESO has the worst class system out of all the MMOs I've played, I'd say. I do think WoW's are better and yeah, the game definitely has it's own set of issues.... I mean, every MMO does.... but I've always struggled to stick to one character in WoW just because I love so many of their classes. I have even been playing again recently to experience the dracthyr evoker (new race/class) which has just been tons of fun. So I'd say if we're judging the games off of classes alone, WoW wins. Especially with their new talent system that does allow for more class building choices. The games that I think do classes best though are FFXIV and GW2.
FFXIV has some of the most interesting and fun classes I've ever seen. Ninja is terrific, dragoon feels epic, red mage and black mage as well.... the astrologian and gunbreaker are both pretty amazingly unique too. Honestly, most of their jobs (aka classes) shine. I also just really enjoy the quests tied to them and how what you're playing as can sometimes influence a cutscene or dialogue option in the main questline.
GW2 is also great. Every class feels unique and then can be even more so thanks to weapon options, a talent like system, and what they call elite specializations. I'm a big fan of the elementalist and the revenant is a knew favorite of mine.
And in the sense of the "play how you want" concept for class/character building, games like Albion Online and New World do it better than ESO. Now, not to sound too negative; don't get me wrong haha ESO used to have one of my favorite combat systems even despite the weak class design.... although thanks to things like proc set meta's, the slaughtering of the vampire skill line, hybridization, U35, and performance that seems to consistently get worse.... I can't really say that anymore and other class systems just look even better than they already did.

fizzylu · November 2022

Nyseto wrote: »

Ah so you’re saying that the classes are highly unequal…yeah that’s a deal breaker for me because then people are forced into a specific class. Why is WoW so toxic? I hear that a lot

And classes in WoW are not that unequal haha you can easily get into endgame content no matter what you are. The only gap you'll find that is that big is when it comes to gearing and your ilvl. WoW is also not that toxic, I mostly play solo and with social guilds. We easily can do endgame content and have a good time. I can also find groups of nice people for mythic+ dungeons solo through the group finder no problem, never had any issues with rude players or being unable to complete a dungeon because someone wasn't the "right class". Community definitely differs between servers though too.

Holycannoli · November 2022

Yeah classes never really worked here.

Nothing beats the old classic MMORPG class distinction. Think Everquest: Not a lot of classes but each one was unique.

On the flipside and totally different system that I actually love is Path of Exile. There are classes but the tree and gem system it uses allow for a lot of customization. It can be mind boggling how customizable it is.

Since ESO is an Elder Scrolls game most people expect it to work like an Elder Scrolls game. I know my first ever character in beta was a two-handed sorcerer, to mimic my Skyrim two-handed summoner with his two zombie summons and large dragonbone maul. It didn't work at all here (this was back in beta). Over time unique class identity has been sort of squashed. It still exists but I don't like how each class can fill each role.

That's what class identity is all about: which role the class fills. If each class in ESO can DPS, tank and heal then why bother with classes? I felt the same when I played Rift because it did the same thing with classes. That works great for single player games but for MMORPGs class roles and class distinction define the experience. You're not going to be a cleric in Everquest if you want to DPS or charm mobs, or a wizard if you want to heal.

Pixiepumpkin · November 2022

blizzard does class identity very well in wow, even more than that but spec identity.

A fire mage feels and plays completely different from an arcane or frost mage.
Same goes for Beastmaster hunter vs a marksman or survival hunter.
Same goes for a discipline priest vs a holy priest vs a shadow priest
Same goes for an affliction warlock vs a demonology warlock vs a destruction warlock
same goes for druids
same goes for warriors
same goes for demon hunters
same goes for paladins
same goes for monks
same goes for shaman
same goes for rogues
same goes for death knights
same goes for Evoker

and then the races being way different (not just all humans with a different head) makes the differences even greater

i like eso but this is one of the things i dont like about the game, it seems like most of the classes play the same, at least in order to not be kicked from a vet you need to do a certain amount of damage so this means your build ends up being cookie cutter like the rest of the builds

the fact that the same gear and design works for just about any class in eso is proof.

5 piece depths, 5 piece something else popular, 2 piece zaan. Wall of elements infused with spell power. spammable, dps traps, etc etc

the same build is used on all the clases making them feel the same. Only when the class loadout will bring the highest damage will any form of "class identity" be restored.

wow does not have this issue by design and its in part what makes it appeal to a lot of people.

Amottica · November 2022

Nyseto wrote: »

Still trying to get over the cartoonish graphics, but I just hate how the classes in ESO bleed into each other so much. To some that’s a good thing because they can be a sword-wielding sorc if they want to, but I guess to me the classes share way too many abilities, it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well. Anyone else relate here?

That "bleeding into each other" is called choice vs the fixed and forced builds games like WoW have.

Besides the graphics in WoW, I cannot go back to the slow and archaic style of combat they have there.

Necrotech_Master · November 2022

Holycannoli wrote: »

Yeah classes never really worked here.

Nothing beats the old classic MMORPG class distinction. Think Everquest: Not a lot of classes but each one was unique.

On the flipside and totally different system that I actually love is Path of Exile. There are classes but the tree and gem system it uses allow for a lot of customization. It can be mind boggling how customizable it is.

Since ESO is an Elder Scrolls game most people expect it to work like an Elder Scrolls game. I know my first ever character in beta was a two-handed sorcerer, to mimic my Skyrim two-handed summoner with his two zombie summons and large dragonbone maul. It didn't work at all here (this was back in beta). Over time unique class identity has been sort of squashed. It still exists but I don't like how each class can fill each role.

That's what class identity is all about: which role the class fills. If each class in ESO can DPS, tank and heal then why bother with classes? I felt the same when I played Rift because it did the same thing with classes. That works great for single player games but for MMORPGs class roles and class distinction define the experience. You're not going to be a cleric in Everquest if you want to DPS or charm mobs, or a wizard if you want to heal.

the only reason i disliked path of exile and their tree system was EVERY FREAKING TIME they did any sort of rebalancing of that tree, you had to basically fully respec your entire character, which sometimes felt like 1+ times a month (the other part i absolutely despised was xp loss on death, the grind and that made it virtually impossible to progress past level 90 in any reasonable amount of time)

Nyseto · December 2022

Amottica wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Still trying to get over the cartoonish graphics, but I just hate how the classes in ESO bleed into each other so much. To some that’s a good thing because they can be a sword-wielding sorc if they want to, but I guess to me the classes share way too many abilities, it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well. Anyone else relate here?

That "bleeding into each other" is called choice vs the fixed and forced builds games like WoW have.

Besides the graphics in WoW, I cannot go back to the slow and archaic style of combat they have there.

The combat is really slow, and tab targeting is old.

Nyseto · December 2022

Alright ladies and gentlemen, ESO it is. What I am excited for though is Ashes of Creation…supposed to be ESO on steroids, graphics-wise. The classes are bonkers

LordRukia · December 2022

My rogue definitely feels like a rogue, granted that is after the talent revamp.

I don't know what my NB feels like, its really boring to play these days.

tgrippa · December 2022

Having an awesome time in Dragonflight, love the combat and polish, and the insane amount of players there. You can see the developers care.

Couple points in this thread that I think should be clarified:

Toxicity in WoW is generally among the players who are not too good at the game, and you see it most in pug groups, so try and find yourself a guild fast. Good players generally play in their own groups or closely check players before inviting them to pug groups, so it’s usually just a good experience. You do not see much toxicity in higher level content but you will be expected to perform properly. This behaviour can also be reported now as Blizzard have brought in a new “Social Contract” which players have to abide by, and they do actively deal with this as you get responses fairly often after reporting.

Combat at the higher end is fast paced and there is a high level of quick reaction play required, a good example is doing an M+ key above 20, where things that previously tickled you for 10% health are now chunking 90% of your health, and a small miscalculation can ruin the timer on the key meaning small mistakes matter and everyone has to be performing properly. The high keys are a good step up in difficulty from the average vet hardmode dungeon in ESO.

N.B. I stopped playing ESO after Castle Thorn and BDV so I cannot compare to any ESO content after.

ssewallb14_ESO · December 2022

Matter of taste I guess. The classes "bleeding into each other" was a selling point for me. My first MMO was (early) Guild Wars 2, and I had this feeling of being shoehorned into a role and playstyle that felt awful. It made me feel like MMOs just weren't for me at that point. I got into ESO because it was an exception, at least at the time, and I love that that aspect has only been expanded on as time goes on.

Jaraal · December 2022

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Matter of taste I guess. The classes "bleeding into each other" was a selling point for me. My first MMO was (early) Guild Wars 2, and I had this feeling of being shoehorned into a role and playstyle that felt awful. It made me feel like MMOs just weren't for me at that point. I got into ESO because it was an exception, at least at the time, and I love that that aspect has only been expanded on as time goes on.

The flip side of that is that it kills replay value and motivation to try new classes when everybody can do everything with one toon.

With ESO’s “standardization” and “hybridization” goals, eventually everyone will be playing the same character, only with different particle effects.

Molydeus · December 2022

A big reason I left WoW was that the instant an expansion came out, all previous content became pointless and outdated. With the way gear progression works in WoW, even the greatest legendary gear from the previous expansion's endgame is less powerful than the generic greens you get while questing through the early levels of a new expansion. The orange weapon you grinded for a year to get is old news. It's such a waste and you have to completely regear, relevel, and max everything all over again once a new expansion is released.

ESO is great because gear stays relevant outside of getting nerfed (which happens all the time in WoW too), and you don't need to toss it in the trash when a DLC or new Chapter comes out.

Holycannoli · December 2022

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the only reason i disliked path of exile and their tree system was EVERY FREAKING TIME they did any sort of rebalancing of that tree, you had to basically fully respec your entire character, which sometimes felt like 1+ times a month (the other part i absolutely despised was xp loss on death, the grind and that made it virtually impossible to progress past level 90 in any reasonable amount of time)

Oh yes SO annoying. But the customization it affords is amazing.

fizzylu · December 2022

Molydeus wrote: »

A big reason I left WoW was that the instant an expansion came out, all previous content became pointless and outdated. With the way gear progression works in WoW, even the greatest legendary gear from the previous expansion's endgame is less powerful than the generic greens you get while questing through the early levels of a new expansion. The orange weapon you grinded for a year to get is old news. It's such a waste and you have to completely regear, relevel, and max everything all over again once a new expansion is released.

ESO is great because gear stays relevant outside of getting nerfed (which happens all the time in WoW too), and you don't need to toss it in the trash when a DLC or new Chapter comes out.

Hm, I totally disagree with this haha gear in WoW is only a game of numbers and legendaries (when an expansion even has them) make minimal difference. In ESO, the gear you use can go as far as completely changing your playstyle and effectiveness. I mean, when sets I use get nerfed in ESO or a very op broken one gets released.... I never go back to the old set and usually have to use the new one just to stand a chance (oakensoul ring in small scale pvp is a great example of this). I've never been irritated by my gear being swapped out in WoW because you're not actually losing anything by that gear being replaced by one with bigger numbers. The only things that may apply to this were Legion artifact weapons and the heart of Azeroth in BFA, but those were "borrowed power" items and expansion exclusives. In the case of normal gear pieces though; you can get them so naturally just by doing endgame content like pvp, raids, and mythic+ dungeons. In ESO, I have to go out of my way to get sets and upgrade every piece of them.... and all that work I put into it just gets made pointless by a huge nerf, sometimes even a whole set rework (never been the same since they changed one of my favorite sets with the release of Greymoor), or a new shiny mythic or set.... and when this happens I don't just lose the time I put into them; I lose the time, the effort, the gold, the transmute crystals, the upgrade mats.... I lose it all haha and what do I lose when I get a new helmet in WoW? Nothing, I actually earn a hundred gold or so from now being able to vendor it haha
I will say, I do at least agree that actual content like zones or features like garrisons and class halls being kind of left to gather dust does extremely suck. I'm waiting for the day Blizzard finally just makes everything scale to your level and no longer abandons old content.... but I'd say gearing is way worse in ESO haha especially when they keep changing the way the core combat functions work and the "meta" playstyle on top of it.

TaSheen · December 2022

Molydeus wrote: »

A big reason I left WoW was that the instant an expansion came out, all previous content became pointless and outdated. With the way gear progression works in WoW, even the greatest legendary gear from the previous expansion's endgame is less powerful than the generic greens you get while questing through the early levels of a new expansion. The orange weapon you grinded for a year to get is old news. It's such a waste and you have to completely regear, relevel, and max everything all over again once a new expansion is released.

ESO is great because gear stays relevant outside of getting nerfed (which happens all the time in WoW too), and you don't need to toss it in the trash when a DLC or new Chapter comes out.

Yes. While not the main reason I quit WoW, it was a big push in its own way. I hate gear and level chases.... Love that it's not such a big thing in ESO.

Malthorne · December 2022

Dragonflight is actually quite amazing so far..I’m shocked because the previous xpac, Shadowlands, was terrible up until the Zerith Mortis patch…however WoW’s leadership has appeared to take the criticism from their fan base to heart. Many player friendly changes have taken place with more promised in the future. They have said that they are working on a 10 year plan to create a cohesive narrative as well.

ZOS’s leadership could learn a lot from Blizzards recent attempts to communicate with its community as well as how they are using player feedback to vastly improve the quality of their game.

Amottica · December 2022

Nyseto wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Still trying to get over the cartoonish graphics, but I just hate how the classes in ESO bleed into each other so much. To some that’s a good thing because they can be a sword-wielding sorc if they want to, but I guess to me the classes share way too many abilities, it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well. Anyone else relate here?

That "bleeding into each other" is called choice vs the fixed and forced builds games like WoW have.

Besides the graphics in WoW, I cannot go back to the slow and archaic style of combat they have there.

The combat is really slow, and tab targeting is old.

I agree. It is because WoW is old. I tried playing it but it is one of my least favorite MMORPGs.

YandereGirlfriend · December 2022

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Matter of taste I guess. The classes "bleeding into each other" was a selling point for me. My first MMO was (early) Guild Wars 2, and I had this feeling of being shoehorned into a role and playstyle that felt awful. It made me feel like MMOs just weren't for me at that point. I got into ESO because it was an exception, at least at the time, and I love that that aspect has only been expanded on as time goes on.

"Bleeding into each other" in the sense that all classes can fulfill all roles is good. But classes should be able to fulfill those roles in ways that feel substantively different from one another.

And that is just not the case currently in ESO where classes across all roles use basically the same set of universal skills as well as a smaller subset of class skills that are all just re-skins of universal skills.

For example, is Nightblade tanking meaningfully different than Warden tanking? Not really. You're using mostly the same skills and sets for both. There was a time when Nightblade tanking was meaningfully different (e.g. the Sap Tank era) but we no longer live in such times. This exercise can be repeated for basically every role and class comparison.

zaria · December 2022

mocap wrote: »

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/playing-eso-and-missing-wow/99939

pretty much same "inverted" thread on WoW forum. So yeah - it's all subjective.

This and agree with most of his points but prefer the more realistic TES designs.
On the other hand if you had so large shoulder armor it could work as an turret for an Alfiq mage it would be fun 😺

Molydeus · December 2022

fizzylu wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

A big reason I left WoW was that the instant an expansion came out, all previous content became pointless and outdated. With the way gear progression works in WoW, even the greatest legendary gear from the previous expansion's endgame is less powerful than the generic greens you get while questing through the early levels of a new expansion. The orange weapon you grinded for a year to get is old news. It's such a waste and you have to completely regear, relevel, and max everything all over again once a new expansion is released.

ESO is great because gear stays relevant outside of getting nerfed (which happens all the time in WoW too), and you don't need to toss it in the trash when a DLC or new Chapter comes out.

Hm, I totally disagree with this haha gear in WoW is only a game of numbers and legendaries (when an expansion even has them) make minimal difference. In ESO, the gear you use can go as far as completely changing your playstyle and effectiveness. I mean, when sets I use get nerfed in ESO or a very op broken one gets released.... I never go back to the old set and usually have to use the new one just to stand a chance (oakensoul ring in small scale pvp is a great example of this). I've never been irritated by my gear being swapped out in WoW because you're not actually losing anything by that gear being replaced by one with bigger numbers. The only things that may apply to this were Legion artifact weapons and the heart of Azeroth in BFA, but those were "borrowed power" items and expansion exclusives. In the case of normal gear pieces though; you can get them so naturally just by doing endgame content like pvp, raids, and mythic+ dungeons. In ESO, I have to go out of my way to get sets and upgrade every piece of them.... and all that work I put into it just gets made pointless by a huge nerf, sometimes even a whole set rework (never been the same since they changed one of my favorite sets with the release of Greymoor), or a new shiny mythic or set.... and when this happens I don't just lose the time I put into them; I lose the time, the effort, the gold, the transmute crystals, the upgrade mats.... I lose it all haha and what do I lose when I get a new helmet in WoW? Nothing, I actually earn a hundred gold or so from now being able to vendor it haha
I will say, I do at least agree that actual content like zones or features like garrisons and class halls being kind of left to gather dust does extremely suck. I'm waiting for the day Blizzard finally just makes everything scale to your level and no longer abandons old content.... but I'd say gearing is way worse in ESO haha especially when they keep changing the way the core combat functions work and the "meta" playstyle on top of it.

You're forgetting the biggest problem with WoW's gear-chasing model: it retires all former content when a new expansion is released. Since new expansion gear is always better than old expansion gear in WoW, ALL old content becomes dead when an expansion comes out. Nobody does old content except for the occasional soul power-leveling through an area to reach endgame. WoW's entire world is dead outside of new zones because nobody goes back to do any old content due to the gear progression system. The rewards you get from running old dungeons and raids are vendor trash because it's all dramatically outclassed by the next expansion's greens. It's an awful system and ESO would do well not to ever copy it because then nobody would do base-game zones anymore or old trials and all you'd see in zone chat would be requests from people to help them powerlevel, because the only content would be at endgame.

ZOS_Icy · December 2022

Greetings,

With this thread being more meant to discuss another game's features, we're going to go ahead and close it down. For further posts, we ask that you keep things more ESO related.

Thank you for understanding.