Been trying out WoW for a few days

Nyseto

Still trying to get over the cartoonish graphics, but I just hate how the classes in ESO bleed into each other so much. To some that’s a good thing because they can be a sword-wielding sorc if they want to, but I guess to me the classes share way too many abilities, it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well. Anyone else relate here?

Darkstorne

I think you either do classes properly, or go classless (like classic TES games). The "bit of both" approach ESO goes for isn't something I'm particularly fond of.

emilyhyoyeon

I definitely have seen people talk about feeling similarly to you here. For me personally, I came to ESO from the other TES games so the things like sword-wielding sorcs don't bother me. I wouldn't be against making the classes themselves have more unique styles, but I wouldn't want to restrict things like weapon choice or attribute spec between them, for example.

I haven't played any other MMOs other than runescape which has no class system at all, but I have heard classes are typically really big aspects of MMOs in general so I can see people being unimpressed with ESO's.

TwiceBornStar

Classes really don't bleed into each other *that* much unless you're heavily relying on Weapon Skill Lines, Guild and/or World Skill Lines. Also, it's a matter of personal preference wether your build has to be the exact same build as everyone else's or not. I choose the latter, because it's much more fun discovering and playing your own builds. My Nightblade feels unique enough to me, and I'm quite sure nobody plays it the same way, and it's also extremely effective in PvE, so I can't really relate. Just yesterday for example, I semi-tanked a world boss in The Deadlands with my Nightblade, relying solely on self-heals, a bit of damage mitigation from Dark Cloak, while using Twisting Path and Roll-Dodge to stay out of harm's way. (It's a DPS in light armor!) I got help from two other players, and we killed it three times over. (I'm collecting a few sets!)

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Dr_Con

Sharing too many skills does make balancing the non-class abilities a bit troublesome, as you may tweak numbers for a sword or bow skill to be more favorable to a certain class's kit.

Never was it said that you can't have a sorc who does pushups and wields a hammer on the weekends though, where you would have poor little buff bois with no home in other games you have beefy stronk thor men in ESO.

I would like more build diversity and maybe even a new category of class abilities. I dislike seeing how many healer skill bars are 75% identical with the 25% remaining slots being for class abilities. And I still wonder why there isn't a free pet slot for pet classes.

On that same token, it's also a bit cringe seeing as how DKs get an uber tanking ult and class passives/abilities that support tanking while the rest have to put up with mediocre support ults. This can be rectified with a whole new set of class abilities for each class, but I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too.

TwiceBornStar wrote: »

if you were having so much more fun playing WoW, then why are you here complaining about this game, exactly?

TES franchise has a special place in the hearts of many- people also have their own view on the way things should be in an ideal world when they lack the history on how ESO got to this point. I'd personally hate to see this game get tossed aside like SWTOR did lore-wise and become a grindy endeavor, i'd like to see it evolve and have a robust competitive community that has an e-sport audience for PVP- but with constant radical changes this isn't possible.

TaSheen

I'm good with the class system here. I do my own builds, and generally rely mostly on class abilities. I don't chase meta, I'm happy as long as I can keep my characters alive and kill mobs fairly easily (well, quest bosses not so much....)

SeaGtGruff

I think the Class abilities are fairly distinctive.

Yes, you can (as I normally do) primarily slot non-Class abilities such as those from the various Weapon skill lines, or from the various Guild skill lines, etc., in which case your characters can feel and play largely the same as each other regardless of their Classes.

But you can also slot only Class abilities, in which case your characters will feel and play differently than each other based on their specific Classes.

When I see other players using Class-specific abilities, I don't have any trouble recognizing which Classes their characters are, which wouldn't be possible if all Classes were non-distinctive.

That said, the Classes in ESO are definitely different than those in the other Elder Scrolls games. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of personal opinion and taste, but it's interesting how the limitations imposed by the different Classes-- such as the types of Armor and Weapons a character can equip, and whether or not they can learn to cast spells-- was most pronounced in the earliest Elder Scrolls games, but then were largely discontinued in the later games.

Danikat

ESO doesn't have my favourite class system, but it's not that important to me. I've played a lot of different RPGs and I always find a way to work with the options available. Also personally I prefer open-ended ones like the older TES games where you have more flexibility to choose what your character does and how they do it than rigid class systems that insist on sticking to fantasy tropes.

But other things are more important to me, like the world and the lore and, for MMOs especially, the overall game design. I was a big fan of Warcraft 1 and 2, but didn't like the changes they made in 3 and I don't like MMOs with gear treadmills and constant pressure to chase the next upgrade, I want to be able to focus on what interests me. I also prefer games without a subscription.

BlueRaven

NB has turned from a rouge type class to a pvp centric class unfortunately, I hardly use class skill anymore on my nb main other than cloak. (This weeks “weekly” endeavor makes me cringe because it really feels nbs don’t have a good pve spamable for killing mobs.) and when I go to dungeons/trials there is zero nb abilities that I use.

That being said it is entirely possible to play the WoW type classes in eso if you choose to do so. The only thing stopping you from playing a fire or frost mage in eso is just making one. Wardens can also easily be hunters etc.

mocap

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/playing-eso-and-missing-wow/99939

pretty much same "inverted" thread on WoW forum. So yeah - it's all subjective.

YandereGirlfriend

My pet peeve with the ESO classes is that they're nonsensical from a lore perspective and do not align with the classes found in the mainstream TES games, Morrowind and Oblivion.

Like what even is a Templar? That does not exist in TES lore. We should have received a Paladin, Crusader, Monk or Pilgrim instead depending upon how they wanted to shade the class. Dragonknights also fit this description.

Overall, I agree with what some posters have mentioned about either going all-in on classes or else going classless like a regular TES game.

Four_Fingers

This is a game based on TES not a TES game per say, it was always to be different which is refreshing.
The continuous clamor to make it more TES gets old.

Necrotech_Master

the mmo i played mostly before ESO was city of heroes/villains

and while that game was divided into archetypes for the classes, most of the powersets were either the same (with some variants) across other archetypes, but it still felt like you could make a build that was unique for you

i also loved having travel powers, its made be absolutely despise the "mount" system we have in here lol

spartaxoxo

I'm glad the classes aren't as rigid as in some other games. Also don't know what you mean by they share too many abilities? Most of what makes them feel same-y is the non-class skills, while the class skills are what gives them any flavor outside of each other.

FeedbackOnly

I like classes here to play as you want motto

agelonestar

Nyseto wrote: »

Still trying to get over the cartoonish graphics, but I just hate how the classes in ESO bleed into each other so much. To some that’s a good thing because they can be a sword-wielding sorc if they want to, but I guess to me the classes share way too many abilities, it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well. Anyone else relate here?

It wasn’t always like this but the last couple of years have seen the erosion of any class identity.

At this point I’d have to say that there is no strategy for class or combat for that matter. Well, unless the strategy is “make it all a grey sludge”.

Shame.

I_killed_Vivec

"it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well."

And are the class skills of the other classes only useful in PvP, or have you, in you comment about a lack of distinction, just highlighted a distinction? Albeit one that you don't believe suits you.

I think a bigger issue is the lack of class identity for some classes - particularly stam variants because so many class skills are magica, hence the use of weapon skills that any class can use.

But even worse is when they take a class defining skill (DK wings), nerf it to death, and give something even better to a new class (warden's crystallized shield and morohs)

Lumenn

agelonestar wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Still trying to get over the cartoonish graphics, but I just hate how the classes in ESO bleed into each other so much. To some that’s a good thing because they can be a sword-wielding sorc if they want to, but I guess to me the classes share way too many abilities, it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well. Anyone else relate here?

It wasn’t always like this but the last couple of years have seen the erosion of any class identity.

At this point I’d have to say that there is no strategy for class or combat for that matter. Well, unless the strategy is “make it all a grey sludge”.

Shame.

This. Classes used to have a bit more...flavor..... than they currently do. Either through pvp nerfs(many put the blame here due to the "king of the hill" nerf threads) pve nerfs(x class isn't needed or brings anything to groups) the "VISION" in Zos's plan, or some combo of them, class identity has been washed out somewhat, resulting in what we currently have.

FluffyBird

There always will be a game that does this or that better than ESO, in someone's personal opinion. That is not what ESO's problem is.
As for the ESO classes, I still find that they are sufficiently different, at least for casual playing.

dmnqwk

The class identity is primarily a fault in skill design and ESOs decision to offer you 10 skills but have no diversity in how they function.

I've said it a few times but skills fall into a few categories:
1. Spammable - A lower damage ability with no cooldown that is either free or costs few resources and gets its name from how you tend to spam it as a filler move.
2. Execute - Similar to Spammable but only comes into play when the enemy is below X health.
3. Proc - This ability requires a specific event to occur before you can use it (or in some cases would use it). ESO does NOT use this whatsoever.
4. Cooldown - This ability hits hard but has a cooldown attached to it. When ESO began it didn't use these directly, but indirectly created a faux cooldown by having light attack charges on moves.
5. DoT - Damage over time ability. In ESO there are Ground based ones and Sticky ones (applied directly to a target).
6. Channel - An ability which does damage while you continuously use it.
7. Burst Effects - These are short-term power moves which create a change in circumstances and require management to get the best out of it. The closest ESO has to this would be Incapacitating Strike and timing it to be used when you're on 3 stacks (since you fourth stack before using it then 5th stack immediately after).

Examples of diverse dps classes (not found in ESO) would be:

1. The DoT specialist.
These usually apply multiple Damage over Time effects, then channel a single ability which does X damage but is often buffed by how many DoTs you have on the target. (Affliction Warlock in WoW is a prime example)
2. The Proc master.
You don't have a rotation, you play whack-a-mole depending on which ability lights up based on priority. A few short cooldowns on differing timers and maybe a DoT ticking with a chance to proc one or two abilities means. (Enhancement Shaman in WoW worked like this)
3. The Resource Juggler.
If you had infinite resource, you could do a bazillion damage... but you don't. So you juggle abilities and ensure you don't overspend on your heavy hitting abilities by using lesser costing fillers to balance things out. (Concealment Operative in Swtor follows this routine)
4. The Burst
You have several burst effects and a powerful opening rotation that means over a short fight you are deadly. You have a couple of powerful moves on top of some short term buffs that you can stack all at once to open a fight and rain hell down on your foes... for 30 seconds or so! (Pyrotech Powertech in Swtor does this).

There are some others people can think of, but ultimately what sets these various builds apart is they share a good use of numbers 3,4 and 7. Procs, Cooldowns and Burst effects all combine to create the variety in builds that other games manage to create. ESO lacks these options, which means the diversity in builds is pretty liimited and isn't something that will change.

Since Heavy Attack builds were buffed so much, there are 2 distinct options now, which is twice what there was before, but in PvE terms there's never going to be diversity between classes simply because you're operating with very limited variety in moves that simply do not allow for the diverse playstyles you find in other games.

Nyseto

Lumenn wrote: »

agelonestar wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Still trying to get over the cartoonish graphics, but I just hate how the classes in ESO bleed into each other so much. To some that’s a good thing because they can be a sword-wielding sorc if they want to, but I guess to me the classes share way too many abilities, it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well. Anyone else relate here?

It wasn’t always like this but the last couple of years have seen the erosion of any class identity.

At this point I’d have to say that there is no strategy for class or combat for that matter. Well, unless the strategy is “make it all a grey sludge”.

Shame.

This. Classes used to have a bit more...flavor..... than they currently do. Either through pvp nerfs(many put the blame here due to the "king of the hill" nerf threads) pve nerfs(x class isn't needed or brings anything to groups) the "VISION" in Zos's plan, or some combo of them, class identity has been washed out somewhat, resulting in what we currently have.

I have also been hearing people say that nowadays the majority of builds are more of a hybrid to some extent due to certain changes that have taken place.

Nyseto

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

"it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well."

And are the class skills of the other classes only useful in PvP, or have you, in you comment about a lack of distinction, just highlighted a distinction? Albeit one that you don't believe suits you.

I think a bigger issue is the lack of class identity for some classes - particularly stam variants because so many class skills are magica, hence the use of weapon skills that any class can use.

But even worse is when they take a class defining skill (DK wings), nerf it to death, and give something even better to a new class (warden's crystallized shield and morohs)

Hmmmm, perhaps. I guess the fact that cloak is really only useful in pvp, just takes away from that stealthy roleplay in pve where a great deal of my time is spent.

Malprave

The classes “bleeding into each other” is obviously intentional. Play the game how you want to was a core philosophy of ESO from the very beginning. I for one enjoy playing a sword wielding spell caster. Fantasy literature is full of them and I appreciate that the game makes it possible.

Nyseto

mocap wrote: »

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/playing-eso-and-missing-wow/99939

pretty much same "inverted" thread on WoW forum. So yeah - it's all subjective.

Oh wow, that’s an interesting post. I guess even though it is inverted and subjective, there is some consistency among observation. I’ve personally never played WoW and even though I love ESO, I just wanted to be able to compare it to something and what better game to compare it to than WoW? It’s been around for ages and I’ve never played. I assume many here however, have played WoW more so than WoW players having played ESO.

darvaria

I've played both ESO and WOW. Reached end game and have done pve and pvp in both. Just came back from WOTLK Classic. What I think:

1. The player base in WOW is 25x more toxic than the player base of ESO. There is no comparison.

2. I love Wow's BG's. IMO, they are far better than that 4x4x4 format of ESO's BG's. Only a limited number of ESO players participate in BG's. You play 5 games and you will see half of the same players. You really don't need a lot of BG's. Most ppl in WOW prefer AB or WSG. You don't need 7 or 8 different ones.

3. WOW is so full of ppl making RL money in the game, late night BG's are unplayable. You will literally see a "control" player leading 3 or 4 bots. These are professional leveling and honor farming players/companies. The format of BG's is great and during prime time a lot of fun. But it seemed more and more bots were coming to the BG's when I left wotlk classic two weeks ago.

4. Yes, classes are different. But there are almost unbeatable arena comps of certain classes. The classes are no where near being "equal". I think the unequal ability in both pve and pvp outweigh any advantage of differences.

5. I'm bored in ESO atm but I was really more appreciative of the player base after playing wotlk classic (I also played vanilla classic). Only so much of those hard core toxic players I can stand. The WORST trolling in cyro zone is 1/100 less toxic than a typical wow BG. Wow zone chat is also usually toxic and treats new players like trash. I spent a lot of time sending tells to ppl that asked questions in zone. I will say that I usually see a nice response in eso zone chat towards new players. And in RDF (wotlk classic has no RDF). Like yesterday I ran a RD and there was a 2400 plus CP player in the group, that had 2 300-500 cps. Like the nicest person you could dream of in a mmo. It was Blood Root Forge. He politely asked about experience and offered advice for the fights. (at the end he said he meant to que vet but stayed in normal for group.) I've found the higher CP more expereinced players are for the most part extremely nice in ESO. You find someone that is 2400 arena in wow ... well I've never found one that is even tolerable much less nice. The whole player environment just evaluates most ppl by gear score. Most of the players in wow REFUSE to play with players that have lower gear scores. Where, I see in ESO, most higher CP players don't make that an issue. I'm sitting at 1997 CP atm but I've always been treated well by higher CP players. And I do the same, if the players have less CP.

6. Please give a 12 x 12 or 15 x 15 a try? PLEASE ZOS.

7. And too many drastic changes with each patch. Stop introducing new and more OP gear with every patch. I'm not really sure what's wrong with the game right now, but there have been too many changes in the past two years.

Respectfully,
Darv

Nyseto

darvaria wrote: »

I've played both ESO and WOW. Reached end game and have done pve and pvp in both. Just came back from WOTLK Classic. What I think:

1. The player base in WOW is 25x more toxic than the player base of ESO. There is no comparison.

2. I love Wow's BG's. IMO, they are far better than that 4x4x4 format of ESO's BG's. Only a limited number of ESO players participate in BG's. You play 5 games and you will see half of the same players. You really don't need a lot of BG's. Most ppl in WOW prefer AB or WSG. You don't need 7 or 8 different ones.

3. WOW is so full of ppl making RL money in the game, late night BG's are unplayable. You will literally see a "control" player leading 3 or 4 bots. These are professional leveling and honor farming players/companies. The format of BG's is great and during prime time a lot of fun. But it seemed more and more bots were coming to the BG's when I left wotlk classic two weeks ago.

4. Yes, classes are different. But there are almost unbeatable arena comps of certain classes. The classes are no where near being "equal". I think the unequal ability in both pve and pvp outweigh any advantage of differences.

5. I'm bored in ESO atm but I was really more appreciative of the player base after playing wotlk classic (I also played vanilla classic). Only so much of those hard core toxic players I can stand. The WORST trolling in cyro zone is 1/100 less toxic than a typical wow BG. Wow zone chat is also usually toxic and treats new players like trash. I spent a lot of time sending tells to ppl that asked questions in zone. I will say that I usually see a nice response in eso zone chat towards new players. And in RDF (wotlk classic has no RDF). Like yesterday I ran a RD and there was a 2400 plus CP player in the group, that had 2 300-500 cps. Like the nicest person you could dream of in a mmo. It was Blood Root Forge. He politely asked about experience and offered advice for the fights. (at the end he said he meant to que vet but stayed in normal for group.) I've found the higher CP more expereinced players are for the most part extremely nice in ESO. You find someone that is 2400 arena in wow ... well I've never found one that is even tolerable much less nice. The whole player environment just evaluates most ppl by gear score. Most of the players in wow REFUSE to play with players that have lower gear scores. Where, I see in ESO, most higher CP players don't make that an issue. I'm sitting at 1997 CP atm but I've always been treated well by higher CP players. And I do the same, if the players have less CP.

6. Please give a 12 x 12 or 15 x 15 a try? PLEASE ZOS.

7. And too many drastic changes with each patch. Stop introducing new and more OP gear with every patch. I'm not really sure what's wrong with the game right now, but there have been too many changes in the past two years.

Respectfully,
Darv

Ah so you’re saying that the classes are highly unequal…yeah that’s a deal breaker for me because then people are forced into a specific class. Why is WoW so toxic? I hear that a lot

Danikat

Nyseto wrote: »

Why is WoW so toxic? I hear that a lot

I only actually played it briefly, on a free trial, so there's a lot I don't know, but I think at least part of it is the game design. Even PvE in that game is competitive to some extent because unless you're in a party together only 1 person will get XP from each enemy, no matter how many people attack it.

When I played it the only thing anyone would say to me in the starter maps is "pls leave" and when I got to a town I was told I shouldn't speak to anyone out in the map because that means I'm in their grind spot and if any of the enemies which spawn there attack me first I'm 'stealing' XP from that person. Oh and I shouldn't speak in towns either because if I don't have anything to sell I'm just 'clogging up chat' and low level players will never have anything worth selling (even in low level maps) so I shouldn't speak at all. I was later told that if I got to about level 40 solo and in silence I could start looking for a guild and then I'd be allowed to talk to them.

I think there's similar problems with item drops as well, I'm not sure of the specifics because I only played solo in WoW, but I've seen a lot of former WoW players letting new ESO players know they're allowed to take anything they can loot from an enemy and not to worry about leaving stuff for other people, and I've heard that WoW guilds and progression groups will set up elaborate systems to determine who is allowed to take which items.

Again I don't know all the specifics but my overall impression is that the game is set up so everyone, even your own party members, are competitors to some extent and that's not exactly going to encourage a friendly and cooperative atmosphere.

edward_frigidhands

Nyseto wrote: »

Still trying to get over the cartoonish graphics, but I just hate how the classes in ESO bleed into each other so much. To some that’s a good thing because they can be a sword-wielding sorc if they want to, but I guess to me the classes share way too many abilities, it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well. Anyone else relate here?

I prefer how ESO does things. I would rather play how I want than play how the devs want.

With WoW you play their mage not your mage.

In ESO you play your sorcerer and not the one ZOS has designed.

ZOS does not and cannot design and more importantly determine your play style for you, your play style is your own.

With WoW blizzard is constantly determining how you play in the chase for "class fantasy/feel".

Both products are designed for different types of players. I don't want ESO to be that game.

dmnqwk

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

Still trying to get over the cartoonish graphics, but I just hate how the classes in ESO bleed into each other so much. To some that’s a good thing because they can be a sword-wielding sorc if they want to, but I guess to me the classes share way too many abilities, it just doesn’t feel unique being a nightblade for example. Most of the nightblade skills are only useful in pvp as well. Anyone else relate here?

I prefer how ESO does things. I would rather play how I want than play how the devs want.

With WoW you play their mage not your mage.

In ESO you play your sorcerer and not the one ZOS has designed.

ZOS does not and cannot design and more importantly determine your play style for you, your play style is your own.

With WoW blizzard is constantly determining how you play in the chase for "class fantasy/feel".

Both products are designed for different types of players. I don't want ESO to be that game.

Every game allows you to play how you want, provided you accept you're going to have an uphill battle to do it.
In ESO, you don't get the freedom to play how you want - you get the freedom to mix and match the options they give you and hope it's not awful (hint: 99% of the time it really is.)
In ESO, you light attack weave or you craft a specific heavy attack frame, then you throw a bunch of dots to fill up the spaces. ESO has no play how you want versus any other MMO, that's just the likelihood you don't play with other people in content that requires you to try (ESO has a lot of content where this is true or can be overcome with negligible dps).

I spent most of my time in WoW going around as a Bear doing bear things and not having to respec because my damage went from 1 to 0.1. I can't play my way any better in ESO than I could in any other game I got to run around with a tank build having actual dps because the dps came from the class and abilities, not entirely from stats on the gear.

When ESO lets me be a tank everywhere and still have dps in a full tank focus, we can go with 'ESO lets you play the way you want'. Until that happens, it's just a different way to play. (Don't get me wrong, I have the armory assistant and so in ESO I walk around in stam dps setups with my tanks who by now all have multiple builds for various content but the game does not support tank dps, which WoW and Swtor both did and I'm told FFXIV does but haven't played myself only family members telling me).

Haenk

I have played lots of games in the last dozens of years (dating back to Moria and Hack), including WOW. I left WOW more than 15 years ago due to the stupid grinding - and I honestly couldn't stand the cartoonish graphics. Moved to Istaria and then jumped to ESO, when it started. Playing ever since, with some breaks though. Still like the graphics a lot and the quests are mostly somewhat stupid, but not that much of a grind.

cave_troll

In my opinion "play the game how you want" is a lie unless you want to always kill easy Quest Bosses and World Bosses. The moment you enter harder content you will wake up. People only playing over world stuff don't know every side of the game. I don't think people like that can judge the class system properly because it doesn't matter what you do, overworld needs no knowledge or skill. It's there for the lore and the story which is a good thing if you want to relax, enjoy lore or the beauty of the zones.

The real character progression starts in veteran content and here you barely can play how you want to unless you want to be carried.
I agree with the op. Classes are only a bit different and lack identity in some areas.
If you don't play meta builds you will slow your group down and make it harder for everyone else. I am not saying it's impossible to clear normal vet stuff but it will be a lot harder. Hardmodes are different story.

I think they should buff class skills a little more and give the classes some unique traits. Doesn't have to be combat stuff. Just sth that you're feeling that you're really playing a necromancer or a nightblade in PvE.