ZOS, why you destroyed Molten Whip for MagDK?

MikeSkyrim333 · August 2022

After Update 35 Molten Whip cost is 1148 stamina and 987 mana. I play as magicka dd and put everything into mana points, so I have 31100 mana and 12800 stamina (high elf)

I often play veteran dungeons where you need to follow the mechanics and roll dodge a lot. 1 roll costs 3000 stamina, so after roll dodge I have 9800 stamina. This is enough only for 10 hits of Molten Whip O_o

ZOS also increased time of dots and there's nothing left for me but to use my spammable more often until the moment I have 0 stamina. There is not even an opportunity to roll dodge after this, but at the same time I have 20,000 mana which I don’t need at the moment since all the dots are already hung up and I'm waiting for them to finish. I am forced to use my ulti at an inopportune moment to proc Battle Roar passive in order to have my stamina back

I just don't understand the point of this change. With this update ZOS not only destroyed the Molten Whip, but also punished MagDK for using stamina morphs, because then there will not be enough stamina for anything at all. And this what you call hybridization? To force all MagDK use only magicka skills?

I've been maining MagDK for 7 years, but after this update, it's almost dead for me, as the desire to play this game

Dragonlord573 · August 2022

Guess ZOS guessed their love from Deadlands was misplaced

Soarora · August 2022

I think wearing medium armor lessens the problem as it reduces the stamina cost. Unfortunately also means you might HAVE to wear medium armor. Haven’t tried in-content post update though yet, only parsing.

dmnqwk · August 2022

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

After Update 35 Molten Whip cost is 1148 stamina and 987 mana. I play as magicka dd and put everything into mana points, so I have 31100 mana and 12800 stamina (high elf)

I often play veteran dungeons where you need to follow the mechanics and roll dodge a lot. 1 roll costs 3000 stamina, so after roll dodge I have 9800 stamina. This is enough only for 10 hits of Molten Whip O_o

ZOS also increased time of dots and there's nothing left for me but to use my spammable more often until the moment I have 0 stamina. There is not even an opportunity to roll dodge after this, but at the same time I have 20,000 mana which I don’t need at the moment since all the dots are already hung up and I'm waiting for them to finish. I am forced to use my ulti at an inopportune moment to proc Battle Roar passive in order to have my stamina back

I just don't understand the point of this change. With this update ZOS not only destroyed the Molten Whip, but also punished MagDK for using stamina morphs, because then there will not be enough stamina for anything at all. And this what you call hybridization? To force all MagDK use only magicka skills?

I've been maining MagDK for 7 years, but after this update, it's almost dead for me, as the desire to play this game

Have you tried using different food? Crunchy Spider Skewer is Max Magicka plus Stamina Recovery?
As someone with a Magplar that regularly uses Stampede and Rally with 12k stamina while dual wielding I have issues when I run out of Magicka more than I do when I run out of Stamina.

As a veteran dungeon runner you have to adapt to changes - and since the food buff exists for you to (also ensure you're using a poison damage dot to proc stamina recovery that way) then it's just frustrating having to change, but nowhere near impossible.

mzprx · August 2022

dmnqwk wrote: »

...As someone with a Magplar that regularly uses Stampede and Rally with 12k stamina while dual wielding I have issues when I run out of Magicka more than I do when I run out of Stamina...

thing is, Stampede and Rally aren't your main spammable abilities, are they? but the Whip is ours. and since our DoTs are mostly of the "sticky" variety they tick every 2 seconds for a looong time. so we have to use a lot, and i mean A LOT of Whips, since there isn't much more to do otherwise, recasting our DoTs while they're still ticking serves no purpose. so we whip stuff. until we run our of Stamina. so now we, Magicka DKs have to use Stamina recovery food and medium armour to be able to sustain our main source of damage. splendid. play how you want my bottom..

I_killed_Vivec · August 2022

I imagine they would expect you to use the other morph...

It's a massive update, we all have to re-evaluate our options.

mzprx · August 2022

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I imagine they would expect you to use the other morph...

It's a massive update, we all have to re-evaluate our options.

you mean the one that doesn't give you 300 weapon/spell damage? the one that no one uses? ever? nah, i'll pass..

Necrotech_Master · August 2022

the way i try to do my mag dk rotation is use flames of oblivion as a spammable until i get 3 stacks of seething, then i use the buffed dmg whip, so im only casting whip every 4th gcd

spamming flames of oblivion isnt costly stat wise and not much different than unbuffed whip (and flames of oblivion adds a seething stack for the whip)

i also have eruption in the build, which i have the cost reduction to make it free cast, and everytime i use that its +990 stam

i usually start off with eruption + wall of elements from the back bar, then on front bar hit the fire breath, burning embers and flames of oblivon and then whip (the first rotation of fire breath + burning ember + flames of oblivion is enough to give 3 stacks of seething for the whip)

then i would go on a rotation of flames x3 + whip until the dots need to be refreshed

i think having the mixed cost will help my builds sustain out a bit more because i currently dont use my stam for anything (outside of dodge/ccbreak/block)

dmnqwk · August 2022

mzprx wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

...As someone with a Magplar that regularly uses Stampede and Rally with 12k stamina while dual wielding I have issues when I run out of Magicka more than I do when I run out of Stamina...

thing is, Stampede and Rally aren't your main spammable abilities, are they? but the Whip is ours. and since our DoTs are mostly of the "sticky" variety they tick every 2 seconds for a looong time. so we have to use a lot, and i mean A LOT of Whips, since there isn't much more to do otherwise, recasting our DoTs while they're still ticking serves no purpose. so we whip stuff. until we run our of Stamina. so now we, Magicka DKs have to use Stamina recovery food and medium armour to be able to sustain our main source of damage. splendid. play how you want my bottom..

I mean, now you're just wanting to complain about it because it's not what you, personally, desire.

Play what you want cannot be thrown about like free speech is - play how you want cannot mean 'I want all my abilities to only cost how much I want them to cost so I can choose exactly what to do and have no challenges but get enough challenge I am perfectly happy with how everything works out'. It simply cannot because people are different and what caters to one individual may not cater to another.

Creating a spammable that costs a split amount of resources might seem bad, but just make sure you're getting the 1000 resource back every 3 seconds from poison/fire to help compensate, and ensure you realise that since U34 there is no longer just magicka or just stamina, but the option to split.
And if you really don't like the changes find a constructive way to explain it, rather than simply haranging any suggestion at how you can cope.

Do less damage and use another spammable
Change class
Stop playing entirely
Become a tank or healer

Telling you how to play isn't what I am doing, just giving you options because you seemed to hate the simple one of 'use a different food buff'.

FluffWit · August 2022

Until there's a proper stam whip I simply won't be able to use it in my rotation. As a stam dk I already use all my magic, mostly on buff skills.

This is a compromise that's unlikely to satisfy anyone.

Just give us stam whip!!!

Troodon80 · August 2022

I use Jagga-Drenched Mud Ball food and haven't had any issues on my DK since the patch hit. I did make adjustments to my DK build during PTS, though. Here's a quick PUG vHRC run I did earlier, my CPM on Whip and my resources. There was some dodging and sprinting involved as the tank died and I naturally got boss aggro, so it's far from being an ideal parse. Could swap out Maelstrom Greatsword for Bow, or just go with something else entirely (tried Blackrose dual wield and Vateshran dual wield, among others). Maelstrom staff is currently not working, so I haven't bothered making any comparisons.

Never at any point dropped to a point where I was worried about my stamina.

Some extra details:

Here's my magicka sustain just for reference:

Build details for reference:

LesserCircle · August 2022

Only using my dk for tanking and solo content with 2H skills now, this change is so bad for the class.

mzprx · August 2022

dmnqwk wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

...As someone with a Magplar that regularly uses Stampede and Rally with 12k stamina while dual wielding I have issues when I run out of Magicka more than I do when I run out of Stamina...

thing is, Stampede and Rally aren't your main spammable abilities, are they? but the Whip is ours. and since our DoTs are mostly of the "sticky" variety they tick every 2 seconds for a looong time. so we have to use a lot, and i mean A LOT of Whips, since there isn't much more to do otherwise, recasting our DoTs while they're still ticking serves no purpose. so we whip stuff. until we run our of Stamina. so now we, Magicka DKs have to use Stamina recovery food and medium armour to be able to sustain our main source of damage. splendid. play how you want my bottom..

I mean, now you're just wanting to complain about it because it's not what you, personally, desire.

Play what you want cannot be thrown about like free speech is - play how you want cannot mean 'I want all my abilities to only cost how much I want them to cost so I can choose exactly what to do and have no challenges but get enough challenge I am perfectly happy with how everything works out'. It simply cannot because people are different and what caters to one individual may not cater to another.

Creating a spammable that costs a split amount of resources might seem bad, but just make sure you're getting the 1000 resource back every 3 seconds from poison/fire to help compensate, and ensure you realise that since U34 there is no longer just magicka or just stamina, but the option to split.
And if you really don't like the changes find a constructive way to explain it, rather than simply haranging any suggestion at how you can cope.

Do less damage and use another spammable
Change class
Stop playing entirely
Become a tank or healer

Telling you how to play isn't what I am doing, just giving you options because you seemed to hate the simple one of 'use a different food buff'.

while i agree that my post could have been perceived this way "just complaining" is not what i intended to do. let me elaborate..

i have made peace with the hybrid gameplay. i didn't really mind it that much to begin with. play how you want. great. but the thing is you can't..

i would like to use a staff as a Magicka character. but why would i? 2H or DW will outdamage staff any day of the week. i understand that there will always be "meta", but to completely disregard one weapon type (if you don't want to lose a ton of damage) is not how i imagine "playing how you want". so that's one thing out of the window..

i would like to use light armour. several reasons for that. i would also like to be able to use the Whip, the MagDKs defining ability. a class identity skill (or ability, if you will). now, if you don't specifically build your character for Stamina sustain (food, medium armour, etc.) you can run out of Stamina. i know, as i have. again, yes, there are builds that allow you to use other abilities as semi-spammable, or you can use different food, i know all of that. but if i want to use light armour, a staff and Magicka food i will not be able to use my class identity skill as my spammable. so the game forces me to use build that i don't want to use if i want to do meaningful damage. i can adapt. and i already have. i stopped playing PvE. works for me. but i am not the only one who will tell you that making the stronger morph of Whip hybrid is just half-arsed attempt to "give Stamina DKs their Whip as well". as they try to present it..

i apologise if i seem to be just ranting while i understand i can be perceived as such. i blame this last update. it looks like they wanted to bring some balance adjustments but nobody actually thought about what they were doing, they just slapped something together and called it an update..

Turtle_Bot · August 2022

I played a fair amount of magdk in pvp before it got all the buffs in U33 and one of the ways I found to help with stamina sustain and keep up with all the blocking, sprinting and dodge rolling required in a pvp environment was to run 1 poison damage glyph on one of my weapons (I was dual wield front bar as it provided a lot more raw stats) and the poison proc helped proc combustion to restore stamina frequently.

Another option could be to run the poison morph of flame claws, which should also deal more damage as it has a scaling dot the longer it is on a target iirc and with how cheap it is and how long it lasts is essentially free to keep up. Or run both poison claw and poison glyph as they will both consistently proc the combustion passive and provide a lot of sustain, especially combined with flames of oblivion and/or cinder storm (is this the name of the damage morph of ash cloud?) which is a nice ground based aoe dot with front loaded burst that gives stamina back on cast and deals flame damage to help sustain magicka through the combustion passive.

Narvuntien · August 2022

Wait, I always get confused by the morph names. I definitely read the patch notes I thought it was the other morph. Arrrrgh!

I have played the same character the same way for years, I want to play my melee pyromancer I don't want to swap to a different spamable. I can't swap to medium armour my build is and always has been Silks of the Sun and BSW. This is the only character I can get enough dps to do vet trails on

. Everything is flame including enchantments its how all my build works.

I use Witchmothers brew as my food/drink as struggling with sustain was norma MagDK life.

*sigh* I guess I have to check on live now.

Edit: I checked it's fine, I just need to replace barbed trap with channelled acceleration

M0ntie · August 2022

I’ve had to change to the skills Troodon80 shows. Had to take off carve and put Orb in. Orb returns resources including stamina now.
DW front bar and maelstrom 2H back bar.
U can also run the crunchy spider snacks that give stam recovery and mag.
Only stam skills are stampede and poison claw. And whip.
For sets I’m running pBM and Zens.

Agree this is a stupid change tho. Why not just make the other morph of whips be the stam whips people have asked for for ages.

Jazraena · August 2022

I've managed to make a mag whip work on a StamDK before, but frankly, I shouldn't have to. We have to jump through hoops just to get a useful class spammable working, and now they even changed the hoops, making us change setup again for no reason.

We have two morphs, and one of them is useless. Turn one into a useful Mag Whip and the other one into a useful Stam Whip and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

Dr_Con · August 2022

we went into detail on this in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615697/i-do-not-enjoy-the-new-molten-whip#latest

FreeMaN_A · August 2022

This is one of the most horrible in this patch for me. I had to change to other morph...

Iriidius · August 2022

I also swapped to flame lash. 60% extra dmg on 3 stacks doesnt seem much more dmg than flamelash, especially when i only cast dots every 24 seconds. Flamelash giving 20% extra dmg and a burst heal against off balance targets gives more survivability. Split stamina/magicka isnt a big problem for my dual wield/SnB Mag dk, my stam sustain was better than my mag sustain. But dmg is lower now and it is harder to kill people, no matter if i keep molten whip or change to flamelash.

Vevvev · August 2022

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I imagine they would expect you to use the other morph...

It's a massive update, we all have to re-evaluate our options.

That morph has it's uses, but for damage it's inferior and requires off balance to get it's full effect.

With all the changes to off balance, the odds of opponents getting out of immobilization, and the fact some opponents literally cannot be crowd controlled.... As much as I love Flame Lash it's the inferior morph in this day and age.

ZOS_Hadeostry · August 2022

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

SPR_of_HA_community · August 2022

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

After Update 35 Molten Whip cost is 1148 stamina and 987 mana. I play as magicka dd and put everything into mana points, so I have 31100 mana and 12800 stamina (high elf)

I often play veteran dungeons where you need to follow the mechanics and roll dodge a lot. 1 roll costs 3000 stamina, so after roll dodge I have 9800 stamina. This is enough only for 10 hits of Molten Whip O_o

ZOS also increased time of dots and there's nothing left for me but to use my spammable more often until the moment I have 0 stamina. There is not even an opportunity to roll dodge after this, but at the same time I have 20,000 mana which I don’t need at the moment since all the dots are already hung up and I'm waiting for them to finish. I am forced to use my ulti at an inopportune moment to proc Battle Roar passive in order to have my stamina back

I just don't understand the point of this change. With this update ZOS not only destroyed the Molten Whip, but also punished MagDK for using stamina morphs, because then there will not be enough stamina for anything at all. And this what you call hybridization? To force all MagDK use only magicka skills?

I've been maining MagDK for 7 years, but after this update, it's almost dead for me, as the desire to play this game

Some players want poison whip. I think ZOS try to both of mana and stamina players be happy, but effect was opposite.

With current game hybridization - some players need mana skills and some need stamina skills.

Some players do not want their skills be remade.

We really need some thing like spellcraft now.

To atleast change skill damage type and its cost: Stamina/mana/both.

It can save a lot of good skills and avoid a lot of problems in future.

I_killed_Vivec · August 2022

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

MikeSkyrim333 wrote: »

After Update 35 Molten Whip cost is 1148 stamina and 987 mana. I play as magicka dd and put everything into mana points, so I have 31100 mana and 12800 stamina (high elf)

I often play veteran dungeons where you need to follow the mechanics and roll dodge a lot. 1 roll costs 3000 stamina, so after roll dodge I have 9800 stamina. This is enough only for 10 hits of Molten Whip O_o

ZOS also increased time of dots and there's nothing left for me but to use my spammable more often until the moment I have 0 stamina. There is not even an opportunity to roll dodge after this, but at the same time I have 20,000 mana which I don’t need at the moment since all the dots are already hung up and I'm waiting for them to finish. I am forced to use my ulti at an inopportune moment to proc Battle Roar passive in order to have my stamina back

I just don't understand the point of this change. With this update ZOS not only destroyed the Molten Whip, but also punished MagDK for using stamina morphs, because then there will not be enough stamina for anything at all. And this what you call hybridization? To force all MagDK use only magicka skills?

I've been maining MagDK for 7 years, but after this update, it's almost dead for me, as the desire to play this game

Some players want poison whip. I think ZOS try to both of mana and stamina players be happy, but effect was opposite.

With current game hybridization - some players need mana skills and some need stamina skills.

Some players do not want their skills be remade.

We really need some thing like spellcraft now.

To atleast change skill damage type and its cost: Stamina/mana/both.

It can save a lot of good skills and avoid a lot of problems in future.

Now there's an idea, have spell crafting not to develop your own spells but to tailor a morph of an already present ability.

For instance (because we are talking about it), Molten would be as it is now, a mix of stam and magica. But with a particular spell crafting token unlocked you could have a slider to mix it as you wanted - all stam or all magica!

Each skill could have a bunch of associated tokens, maybe cost/power reduction, or getting rid of a stupid AoE before the next cast being ranged...

To be honest it wouldn't be much different from gear enhancements, but for skills