I do not enjoy the new molten whip.

Dr_Con

Been playing magDK for a few days now and felt the old molten whip fit in perfectly with the rotation, you sacrifice some sustain for DPS. Then the patch hit. Now I sacrifice the DPS for the sustain... ZOS, just go all in with the ability. Turn it into a poison ability and make it stam, don't split the cost. I feel like a clown trying to heavy attack people in battlegrounds with a mag build to get stam back. It feels like this change is supposed to satisfy some cookie cutter build and it does not feel right. I switched to the other morph and while I do benefit from the sustain, the molten morph feels ruined.

mmtaniac

This cost is probably for pvp again to force magdk to use some stamina , this way they can be stunned if they don't have that stamina to break free, off course good mdk can work around that cost but this can slow them a little or force to use sustain sets.

Dr_Con

mmtaniac wrote: »

This cost is probably for pvp again to force magdk to use some stamina , this way they can be stunned if they don't have that stamina to break free, off course good mdk can work around that cost but this can slow them a little or force to use sustain sets.

We already have to use noxious breath, a stam ability, to have a source of Major Breach, and I can't tell you how many times this misses due to roll dodge. I sometimes apply the "undodgable fossilize" first just so I can ensure that this dot gets added since stam is needed for survivability and is essential for the breach, more than a measly 6% added flame damage from the mag morph would ever be. This is going to force players to start using the destro staff breach, or caltrops just to make this ability a tiny bit more viable... and the more we use of any weapon or assault tree, the more we chip away at class identity. Using the molten whip with my old rotation leaves me more winded than a 600 lb person who forgot their mobility scooter and has to go to walmart.

I sometimes take long breaks from the game and come back with things not being much different so far as core abilities go, but this is something people will notice as this is a spammable class ability like templars having jabs/sweep, sorcs having crystal weapon/crystal fragment, etc. and none of them have been "optimized" or whatever they want to call it in this manner, they are either all magicka, or all stamina. Splitting the cost is not innovative or interesting, it's counter intuitive to the game's design.

I'm literally going through every skill right now and I fail to find one that is split down the middle with magicka and stamina costs except molten whip.

Once again, I ask that ZOS either make it a full stam ability, or revert the costs. In PVE it won't matter much due to the undaunted synergy passive and symphony of blades, but solo/BG PVP is kinda screwed by this change.I believe it's unprecedented to make a spammable class ability morph a literal hybrid cost. ZOS, I believe in you, you can do better than this.

mmtaniac

As stamplar main i would like to see split cost to purge but zos would probably give some magicka morphs stronger than give us this. Dk compared to templar can at least restore all resources with passives. Templar are forced to sets or food to restore secondary resources.

I_killed_Vivec

I don't understand why they didn't make it full stam, but that was something that had been asked for for a long time and they had consistently refused. The previous change was supposed to make it more attractive to stam users, but in fact it made no difference because it still cost magica. Now it is of some interest, I have been experimenting with it on my stam DK and it crits up to 22k on a build that I haven't yet optimized for it.

However, I just wish they had stuck to the original DK identity of fire. And simply duplicate morphs to give stam variants:)

Xarc

The new cost mixed stam/magicka is for hybrid builds

Ingel_Riday

Yeah, I don't like it either.

Quite frankly, it's worthless to me now. As a magicka dragonknight, all my abilities use magicka. Also, unless Zenimax has really changed things without me knowing, I'm pretty sure they scale off magicka too damage-wise.

As such... I have 24k health, 38.7k magicka, and 15.9k stamina (give or take). An ability that uses 1k magicka and 1k stamina each cast is going to run me ragged and use up stamina I need for dodging, blocking, and breaking free. I can't afford it, and I can't justify lowering magicka to boost up stamina because:

A. Only one ability even uses stamina as a resource.
B. Again, my abilities scale with magicka. I'd be messing myself up reducing the stat.

I'm going to have to switch to Flame Lash or use a generic Destruction Staff spammable now. I've been using Molten Whip for 5 years. Ever since I came back for the Morrowind expansion. Now it's done.

*sigh* Are hybrid builds even viable at this point, anyway? I still get the impression that the game wants you to choose and that hybrids are more a niche market kind of thing.

I guess it doesn't matter. I'll be frank: I do enjoy this game and the difficulty scaling could use a tweak. Most game content is built to be doable by a level-scaled level 1 character in gray rags, so doing it as a CP 1325 demigod in gold gear usually feels painfully easy. BUT... I haven't enjoyed or looked forward to a patch since the year 2018. Every patch nerfs sustain, or nerfs direct damage, or nerfs this, or nerfs that. Every title update fills me with a hint of nerd dread, because I don't know which one of my abilities will suddenly be rendered useless or how heavy the nerfhammer is going to hit me. In this case, I think you killed 30% of my total DPS AND you took away my main spammable.

What the heck am I supposed to look forward to? I have no idea what the long-term end goal of all these endless changes is and it starts to feel like you're just kicking us at intervals (which I know you're not. I just don't know what you're going for. I have no idea). My spammable, gone. Great.

Edit addition: also, please... if anyone wants to correct me or point me at a published long-term plan I've missed, feel free. :-P We're almost 8 years into this game now and substantial changes to core gameplay systems are still occurring at six to twelve month intervals. You start kind of hoping that things will coalesce and find a baseline normal that just gently fluctuates here or there every patch and not... well, this.

StarOfElyon

Xarc wrote: »

The new cost mixed stam/magicka is for hybrid builds

I've been playing a hybrid DK for years now and I never asked for this change.

Jarl_Ironheart

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I don't understand why they didn't make it full stam, but that was something that had been asked for for a long time and they had consistently refused. The previous change was supposed to make it more attractive to stam users, but in fact it made no difference because it still cost magica. Now it is of some interest, I have been experimenting with it on my stam DK and it crits up to 22k on a build that I haven't yet optimized for it.

However, I just wish they had stuck to the original DK identity of fire. And simply duplicate morphs to give stam variants:)

Yeah I'm not sure why they are so adamantly against stam whip. It would be awesome to have that. Would make my Stam DK more fun to play to have a better spammable rhat noxious breathe

ccfeeling

Stam dk worths a stam whip, pls do something Dev

Luke_Flamesword

I like hybrid morhp, because it's fits perfectly into my build but I understand that some people may not like it.

Maybe it's time to introduce 3rd morph for skills - hybrid morphs?

Quethrosar

pvp whining again.
try being a magica that can only dodge 2 times before out of stamina.

kojou

I’m not a fan of the split resource thing either.

As a Breton DK this is basically a nerf. The cost reduction from my characters racial passive only applies to half the cost.

I switched to the other morph but I’m not happy about it.

deejayvee

The new whip is not great for my Mag DK, especially as I also had to find a new skill to replace on of my DoTs with and the best option was another Stam skill. It's going to take some time to find the balance as I have to up my Stam now.

However, I am really liking the new whip for my Stam DK. Gives me a good spammable to use as Dizzying swing isn't great for me in PVP. And the cost ends up feeling really cheap. The only thing that worries me will be if I end up using all my mag because I don't have a way to restore it quickly.

Hotdog_23

ZOS just need to swallow they’re pride and make on morph cost mag and another cost stamina. Play console so not actually tried it my self but I know I am not looking forward to it.

Stay safe

Jazraena

Agreed. Or alter Stone Fist into something useful. Whatever they do, at the end it'd be nice if we finally had both a Stam and Mag class spammable that's actually useful.

OBJnoob

I'm on Xbox so I havent had a chance to use it yet but I'm kinda excited about it. I think its good that it doesn't work quite as well for magdk because magdk was way too strong. And I think stamdk can use the little extra love. I'm actually impressed they found something so small to change... Something that effects what needed to be done and nothing else.

I don't know much about pve but for PvP... I mean even a magic build should have some workable stamina. And maybe stop spamming a skill that is only strong with full stacks anyway. Plus maybe use the combustion passive to restore stam not just magic. Crown double dot poison on your 2h that you occasionally heavy attack with. Good to go.

Let's not be afraid to be creative.

Jazraena

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm on Xbox so I havent had a chance to use it yet but I'm kinda excited about it. I think its good that it doesn't work quite as well for magdk because magdk was way too strong. And I think stamdk can use the little extra love. I'm actually impressed they found something so small to change... Something that effects what needed to be done and nothing else.

I don't know much about pve but for PvP... I mean even a magic build should have some workable stamina. And maybe stop spamming a skill that is only strong with full stacks anyway. Plus maybe use the combustion passive to restore stam not just magic. Crown double dot poison on your 2h that you occasionally heavy attack with. Good to go.

Let's not be afraid to be creative.

Neither my MagDK nor my StamDK can sustain it. I could probably shuffle food and some other things about to make it work, but it's annoying and it doesnt actually help anyone.

A split cost whip is a solution in search of a problem.

Vevvev

Xarc wrote: »

The new cost mixed stam/magicka is for hybrid builds

A hybrid build's strength is to be able to flip which resource pool you use. Molten Whip forces you to use them both, and becomes worthless if one is drained.

It doesn't satisfy hybrid builds who'd rather have 2 Spammables or a good balance between mag and stam abilities, especially when you still need stamina for blocking, dodging, running, etc.

AinSoph

This new whip also pigeonholes you into using max mag/stam recovery food or vice versa.

OBJnoob

Jazraena wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm on Xbox so I havent had a chance to use it yet but I'm kinda excited about it. I think its good that it doesn't work quite as well for magdk because magdk was way too strong. And I think stamdk can use the little extra love. I'm actually impressed they found something so small to change... Something that effects what needed to be done and nothing else.

I don't know much about pve but for PvP... I mean even a magic build should have some workable stamina. And maybe stop spamming a skill that is only strong with full stacks anyway. Plus maybe use the combustion passive to restore stam not just magic. Crown double dot poison on your 2h that you occasionally heavy attack with. Good to go.

Let's not be afraid to be creative.

Neither my MagDK nor my StamDK can sustain it. I could probably shuffle food and some other things about to make it work, but it's annoying and it doesnt actually help anyone.

A split cost whip is a solution in search of a problem.

I agree it doesn't help anyone. Its a nerf, not a buff. And again, from a PvP perspective, its a fairly gentle but well deserved nerf. In my opinion.

My dk is a heavy stam leaning nord, and long before hybridization I was using volatile armor, igneous shield, and probably something else like wings or whatever... And I've always found the magic easy to come by without really building in to it because of resource return on ultimates and tripots. And now he uses burning embers and coag as well so... Sorry, really don't see what y'all are complaining about.

Everything about competitive PvP dks that made them OP was centered around magic ardent flame morphs and magic whip. And corrosive and oakensoul recently yes, but even still ardent flame.

Its a good change for a problem that was actually kinda obvious. And to be honest, y'all are gonna want to be using vigor in u35 too (already shoulda been,) so you'd better find a way to make it work.

Jazraena

OBJnoob wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm on Xbox so I havent had a chance to use it yet but I'm kinda excited about it. I think its good that it doesn't work quite as well for magdk because magdk was way too strong. And I think stamdk can use the little extra love. I'm actually impressed they found something so small to change... Something that effects what needed to be done and nothing else.

I don't know much about pve but for PvP... I mean even a magic build should have some workable stamina. And maybe stop spamming a skill that is only strong with full stacks anyway. Plus maybe use the combustion passive to restore stam not just magic. Crown double dot poison on your 2h that you occasionally heavy attack with. Good to go.

Let's not be afraid to be creative.

Neither my MagDK nor my StamDK can sustain it. I could probably shuffle food and some other things about to make it work, but it's annoying and it doesnt actually help anyone.

A split cost whip is a solution in search of a problem.

I agree it doesn't help anyone. Its a nerf, not a buff. And again, from a PvP perspective, its a fairly gentle but well deserved nerf. In my opinion.

My dk is a heavy stam leaning nord, and long before hybridization I was using volatile armor, igneous shield, and probably something else like wings or whatever... And I've always found the magic easy to come by without really building in to it because of resource return on ultimates and tripots. And now he uses burning embers and coag as well so... Sorry, really don't see what y'all are complaining about.

Everything about competitive PvP dks that made them OP was centered around magic ardent flame morphs and magic whip. And corrosive and oakensoul recently yes, but even still ardent flame.

Its a good change for a problem that was actually kinda obvious. And to be honest, y'all are gonna want to be using vigor in u35 too (already shoulda been,) so you'd better find a way to make it work.

I don't quite agree, but either way, it leaves -PvE- DKs without a useful class spammable.

OBJnoob

Well. I'm not gonna bicker about pve, something I'm willing to concede you know more about, but my understanding from these forums was that magdk was the king of pve DPS also. Or maybe that was two patches ago and this last patch they were 2nd to stamsorc which was widely acknowledged as OP. So, again, maybe a nerf was imminent.

With your dot duration extended though I can see why having a spammable would be extra important now. Have you tried using the psijic imbued weapon or vampire arterial burst?

The problem with whip is its more of a burst tool than a classic spammable. Its only supposed to do insane damage when its got stacks. Anything with secondary and tertiary effects like that, which is also apparently even good when you ignore its real strength and spam it instead, should be very expensive don't you think?

In PvP I think magdks were using flames of oblivion as their spammable and, you know, basically using whip only at max stacks. Have you tried that? Obviously less single target damage but better in trash right?

lonnml

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. I'm not gonna bicker about pve, something I'm willing to concede you know more about, but my understanding from these forums was that magdk was the king of pve DPS also. Or maybe that was two patches ago and this last patch they were 2nd to stamsorc which was widely acknowledged as OP. So, again, maybe a nerf was imminent.

With your dot duration extended though I can see why having a spammable would be extra important now. Have you tried using the psijic imbued weapon or vampire arterial burst?

The problem with whip is its more of a burst tool than a classic spammable. Its only supposed to do insane damage when its got stacks. Anything with secondary and tertiary effects like that, which is also apparently even good when you ignore its real strength and spam it instead, should be very expensive don't you think?

In PvP I think magdks were using flames of oblivion as their spammable and, you know, basically using whip only at max stacks. Have you tried that? Obviously less single target damage but better in trash right?

Last patch I was using flames of oblivion as my spammable and hitting whip at max stacks but update 35 nerfed whip’s max stack tooltip. I used to have a 16k tooltip, not it’s 11k at max stacks.

Iriidius

I swapped to flame lash. 60% extra dmg on 3 stacks doesnt seem much more dmg than flamelash, especially when i only cast dots every 24 seconds. Flamelash giving 20% extra dmg and a burst heal against off balance targets gives more survivability. Split stamina/magicka isnt a big problem for my dual wield/SnB Mag dk, my stam sustain was better than my mag sustain. But dmg is lower now and it is harder to kill people, no matter if i keep molten whip or change to flamelash.

IZZEFlameLash

It is super weird. Doing DPS in PvE, PvP with it just feels off. If you are a stam, you are burning utility pool, so I guess it doesn't matter that much but if you are a magicka, you are burning crucial survival pool while spamming the spammable. I've had plenty times running out of stam against vet level bosses on my mDK that almost got me killed. I don't think this idea works.

BahometZ

Another unsatisfactory change out of nowhere to add to the list.

Just make a stam whip. Like c'mon.

I swear to god, if they finally do that in two patches time and say something like "We listen to you guys, you wanted a stam whip, here you go..." after many years of people asking for it. Yes, we wanted a stam whip! People have been screaming for years.

And remove the cast time from poop rocks, if you want accessibility.