PvDoor speedrunning has no counterplay and is killing Cyrodiil

Cuddlypuff · August 2022

Ever since plaguebreak bombing ended the tank meta, most groups have now adapted to speed PvDoor to prevent any chance of opponents making it to the objective in time to defend. Outposts are flipping within 30 seconds of lighting, and keeps flip within 80 seconds of lighting. From the moment you notice a keep lighting up, it is already literally impossible to port to the nearest waypoint and ride a max speed mount to the keep/outpost before it has flipped. You'd be lucky to even make it to the front door, let alone get in before it is repaired.

Organized PvDoor is now the optimal way to play for campaign score yet it's whole premise actively seeks to avoid PVP at all costs. These groups are also content to crouch for long periods waiting for a distraction before putting up 20 siege, preventing even the most fervent scouting efforts. Since there is no PVP counterplay, the only alternative is doing the same thing, thus culminating in the truly tragic phenomenon of PvDoor Trading.

Here's a simple experiment next time you go into Cyrodiil. Count how many of the total keep fights are actually defended (obviously a reasonable effort and not just 1 oiler, bomber or roof pugs that somehow managed to afk there and wake up in time). I would be shocked if less than 9 in 10 keep fights are completely undefended. Is it really intended for less than 10% of the objectives to actually be defended in a game mode focused on PVP and fighting over objectives?

This is the #1 reason why Cyrodiil is so terrible this patch. Say all you want about Oakensoul, Bowsorcs, Dcon, Plaguebreak, 1 Shot Gankers etc - at least all of those still involve PVP. I'd take all sorts of broken builds, skills and cheese over the complete avoidance of PVP.

The fix is simple. Allow porting into a keep until flags start turning. The map is too big and the PvDoor is too fast for the current keep lighting / teleport blocking mechanics. Defense is objectively more fun than sieging in Cyrodiil and every keep deserves a chance to be defended.

SaffronCitrusflower · August 2022

I vehemently disagree. Most people aren't AP farming bombers. Most people have more fun playing in larger organized groups and achieving map objectives and points for their faction.

Firstmep · August 2022

Hate to break it to you but night/early morning PvDoor capping has been the way alliances win campaigns for the past 6-7 years.

Raammzzaa · August 2022

I can't say that I have really noticed a difference, and I think that has always been the way that organized groups take a keep - i.e. don't take resources first so as to not alert the other factions you're there, hit the doors fast and hard, and flip the flags. The biggest difference that I've observed over the years is the decline in the number of organized groups, and even pugs groups that would have been more likely to defend in the past.

Also, I can't say the I've necessarily seen an end of the tank meta for that matter either. Tanks just started double barring mist form and mist forming away at the first sign of pressure.

Casdha · August 2022

You should go over to the pts forum and read the post about the Mara's Balm set

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/613221/not-only-nocturnal-anyone-looked-at-mara-s-balm/p1

VaranisArano · August 2022

Organized raids have always used PvDoor tactics. It's one of the benefits of being organized.

If I'm on the defending side, I simply watch the map, guess which target they are going to, sit by the front gate, and start calling it out in zone chat as soon as I see the raid roll up. Then i get on siege myself and delay them as much as possible for the reinforcementsto ride in. My guild used to sometimes send players to ride the walls if there were multiple keeps we thought would get hit.

If you or your faction aren't paying attention or watching the keeps that are likely to be hit by raids, then you're always going to be on the back foot when it comes to defense.

Cuddlypuff · August 2022

Raammzzaa wrote: »

The biggest difference that I've observed over the years is the decline in the number of organized groups, and even pugs groups that would have been more likely to defend in the past.

The point that I am making is that it is simply physically impossible to make it to the objective before it flips. It's no surprise that many don't even bother anymore.

SizanLopkniht wrote: »

I vehemently disagree. Most people aren't AP farming bombers. Most people have more fun playing in larger organized groups and achieving map objectives and points for their faction.

Why should that fun come at the expense of people who want to defend map objectives and points for their faction too? The OP is a common sentiment and is not just a projection of my own playstyle. My AP is hardly affected because I'm still farming combat ticks by wiping these groups after the keep flips. The problem is these kills are technically meaningless besides the AP gain, as the keep is already flipped and unlit.

Firstmep wrote: »

Hate to break it to you but night/early morning PvDoor capping has been the way alliances win campaigns for the past 6-7 years.

This is still my favorite time to play, along with the low pop bonus that often accompanies it. They get their piddly O-ticks and campaign score, I get my 300K AP/h - its a win-win. The fact remains that PvDoor times have come down drastically across the board this patch, as groups recognize the need to wrap up the siege before bombers arrive. Best case scenario - bombers keep the doors open and defenders flood in to flip keep back. Worst case scenario - bombers will keep the objective lit, preventing a fast ress or port.

Four_Fingers · August 2022

It is all in learning to read the map and anticipate where they will hit next and be there.
After a playing a while you start to learn certain enemy crown tactics and counter.

geonsocal · August 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Here's a simple experiment next time you go into Cyrodiil. Count how many of the total keep fights are actually defended (obviously a reasonable effort and not just 1 oiler, bomber or roof pugs that somehow managed to afk there and wake up in time).

i love this part of the post...many times i'm that one oiler...usually not too hard to figure out which keep/outpost/objective will be attacked next...

i totally agree with this part of your post:
Allow porting into a keep until flags start turning. The map is too big and the PvDoor is too fast for the current keep lighting / teleport blocking mechanics. Defense is objectively more fun than sieging in Cyrodiil and every keep deserves a chance to be defended.

Four_Fingers · August 2022

Just revert the buffs to rams, increase front door health so the front door meta goes away.
And maybe we will see 50/50 postern sieges like the old days which took longer.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2022

Firstmep wrote: »

Hate to break it to you but night/early morning PvDoor capping has been the way alliances win campaigns for the past 6-7 years.

Yeah, this is simply not a new phenomenon. If you 20/20 a keep that is undefended, you are going to take it quickly, which has been true forever. Only way you stop that would be to lower siege limit or increase wall health, both of which would simply frustrate less organized groups.

End of the day, its a static map with more keeps than can possibly be defended at one time. That is the point, its designed so that keeps are constantly flipping. Always makes me chuckle when Zone Chat Generals rage about taking one keep and losing another. Its the whole flipping (pun intended) point, lol.

geonsocal wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Here's a simple experiment next time you go into Cyrodiil. Count how many of the total keep fights are actually defended (obviously a reasonable effort and not just 1 oiler, bomber or roof pugs that somehow managed to afk there and wake up in time).

i love this part of the post...many times i'm that one oiler...usually not too hard to figure out which keep/outpost/objective will be attacked next...

i totally agree with this part of your post:
Allow porting into a keep until flags start turning. The map is too big and the PvDoor is too fast for the current keep lighting / teleport blocking mechanics. Defense is objectively more fun than sieging in Cyrodiil and every keep deserves a chance to be defended.

I think that would be over the top. I think a better solution might be sort of a stoplight approach. Maybe keeps actually flag at say 75% and turn Red (no more porting) 25%. It would not be okay for you to have a group about to stand on the flags and a zerg ball ports into the keep.

Raammzzaa · August 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Raammzzaa wrote: »

The biggest difference that I've observed over the years is the decline in the number of organized groups, and even pugs groups that would have been more likely to defend in the past.

The point that I am making is that it is simply physically impossible to make it to the objective before it flips. It's no surprise that many don't even bother anymore.

Gotcha, and the point that I'm making is that it is no different than it ever was... the best way to take a keep was always the way that you described it, and none of us can get there any faster than we could before. Our group does try to defend though - got to love those sweet d-ticks, but in the end often there is only so much one group is going to do.

I suspect that the decline in organized groups simply parallels the decline in player population in Cyrodiil in general. Remember how many different campaigns the game had when it was new? Tough filling one campaign these days outside of primetime anyhow.

Kisakee · August 2022

What the heck is PvDoor?

OBJnoob · August 2022

The only thing better than a D Tick is a Re Tick. Let the pvdoorers pvdoor. Let the tower farmers farm towers. Its a huge map with lots of things to do... Can we please stop making suggestions based on our own preferences? You want what you want because you want it. Noted.

Dagoth_Rac · August 2022

Kisakee wrote: »

What the heck is PvDoor?

Player versus Door. A joke about groups that like to do lightning fast hits on keeps that are undefended. So ultimately the only battle is knocking down the door and standing on the flags. They never actually fight versus other players.

Cuddlypuff · August 2022

OBJnoob wrote: »

The only thing better than a D Tick is a Re Tick.

What? A D-Tick can go up to several hundred thousand AP. A Re-Tick is 6K. This line is only valid for RSS where it is easier to politely let a solo finish before taking over and flipping it back, rather than waste both of your time stalemating on top of the flag.

Didgerion · August 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Ever since plaguebreak bombing ended the tank meta, most groups have now adapted to speed PvDoor to prevent any chance of opponents making it to the objective in time to defend. Outposts are flipping within 30 seconds of lighting, and keeps flip within 80 seconds of lighting. From the moment you notice a keep lighting up, it is already literally impossible to port to the nearest waypoint and ride a max speed mount to the keep/outpost before it has flipped. You'd be lucky to even make it to the front door, let alone get in before it is repaired.

Organized PvDoor is now the optimal way to play for campaign score yet it's whole premise actively seeks to avoid PVP at all costs. These groups are also content to crouch for long periods waiting for a distraction before putting up 20 siege, preventing even the most fervent scouting efforts. Since there is no PVP counterplay, the only alternative is doing the same thing, thus culminating in the truly tragic phenomenon of PvDoor Trading.

Here's a simple experiment next time you go into Cyrodiil. Count how many of the total keep fights are actually defended (obviously a reasonable effort and not just 1 oiler, bomber or roof pugs that somehow managed to afk there and wake up in time). I would be shocked if less than 9 in 10 keep fights are completely undefended. Is it really intended for less than 10% of the objectives to actually be defended in a game mode focused on PVP and fighting over objectives?

This is the #1 reason why Cyrodiil is so terrible this patch. Say all you want about Oakensoul, Bowsorcs, Dcon, Plaguebreak, 1 Shot Gankers etc - at least all of those still involve PVP. I'd take all sorts of broken builds, skills and cheese over the complete avoidance of PVP.

The fix is simple. Allow porting into a keep until flags start turning. The map is too big and the PvDoor is too fast for the current keep lighting / teleport blocking mechanics. Defense is objectively more fun than sieging in Cyrodiil and every keep deserves a chance to be defended.

Yes Cyrodiil needs adjustments. When was the last time it was adjusted does anyone remember?

I play no CP campaign and we have less toxic groups down there also less players, but the problem is the same. Once one group cannot be stopped there is nothing to stop them from flipping all them map, keep by keep.

I'm afraid the fast travel suggestion won't help.
We need more creative solutions something like these
1. Gate keeps can be converted into towns for example. That will allow small groups of players to disrupt/restore fast travel paths. Also it will make Gating less painful. And it will force big groups to split when they go for the scrolls.
2. Siege is useless against big ball groups. Make siege matter, also get rid of the siege bubble. Force ball groups find another ways into the keep. Right now it is the front door 90% of the time.
3. The time it takes to take a keep needs to be reworked imo. If 20 players can take a keep in 80 seconds same should be possible for 5 players. The only advantage of 20 players should be the ability to split and take the keep from 4 different sides.

ZOS really needs to start working on encouraging players to split big groups and not form them.

Xarc · August 2022

Many people only get Alliance Points by taking empty keeps, empty outposts & ressources, repairing walls, and do everything to leave fight.

But this ruins the game for some people who want to do PVP really,
for exemple :

you see your faction has 2 bars of population and a ennemy faction is sieging one of your keeps. You call help on chat, but nobody comes, people prefering doing PVD at another empty keep...

OK if you're doing well you can get a big deftic but most of the time, you dont get anything, only frustation.

I personnally miss the times when a keep was 150 AP.

deleted221106-002999 · August 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

...Since there is no PVP counterplay....

er...don't you use scouts inside keeps?

Provided the defenders respond to zone/group posted warning in time they can port before the keep is flagged as ua.

ToRelax · August 2022

I don't know whether Plaguebreak has anything to do with people learning to take a keep efficiently 8 years after launch, but if so - good for them?

Jaraal · August 2022

I’d rather see more outposts, personally. Outposts are the key to speed porting defenders to a keep. Plus, when you see a lot of enemy siege on an outpost near a keep, you know to mass your forces to defend before transit gets cut.

This would encourage and enable more reactive play. There’s an attitude now that if a group lights a remote keep without actually touching the resources, to just let it go, because it’s most likely a waste of riding time to respond. More outposts would solve that problem, as well as giving PUGs more stuff to do.

MasterSpatula · August 2022

PVP isn't just fights. Trying to outsmart your opponents is PVP, too. Figuring out which keeps you're most likely to capture is PVP. Anticipating which keeps your opponent will go after and being there waiting for them is PVP.

TechMaybeHic · August 2022

No. When faction stacks are the main thing going on, a PvDoor requiring them to take as much time getting to that with an over-commitment is necessary. If players can just port in, they would be right back to stacking a new keep to take. Sure, a zerg can PvDoor capture a keep really fast, but they are stuck with the brunt of their force held up there as well.

If anything; is prefer requiring a resource capture a long with flags or something so capturing requires a more spread out approach.

M0ntie · August 2022

“Many people only get Alliance Points by taking empty keeps, empty outposts & ressources, repairing walls, and do everything to leave fight.
But this ruins the game for some people..”

What happened to play as you like? Why shouldn’t people play like this if they choose?

Also it seems right to me that an organised group should be able to take an undefended keep fast. As has been said, a very small number of defenders can delay attackers on a keep with oil and baristas and call for help in zone. If I’m playing by myself (and groups almost never answer lfg calls) I usually go to what I think will be the next keep attacked and prepare to defend and call out in zone.

Dagoth_Rac · August 2022

The problem with preventing big organized groups from taking keeps quickly is that most of the solutions make it almost impossible for smaller and casual groups to take a keep. If you make it a struggle for the best groups, you make it miserable for the rest. And the ability of casual players to enter Cyrodiil and feel like they are impacting the map and affecting campaign is important.

The majority of players are only on for an hour or so and not on every day. If defense is too strong and taking objectives too hard, those players will just see a static map where it is difficult to make an impact and they will shrug and leave. I know there is a belief that that is shallow and lazy and they need to embrace a 30-day view, not an hour view. But you need the map to be fun and active in short bursts because that is how most play is done.

It is a bit more complicated solution, but I would have diminishing returns on siege. So instead of 20 siege taking down a door 5x as fast as 4 siege, maybe it takes it down only 2x as fast. That would have less impact on smaller and casual groups, still give big groups an advantage, but also give defenders a little more time to respond.

Amottica · August 2022

I agree that the door comes down too quickly with a ram. I can see using siege to simultaneously bring down the inner and outer wall to shorten the time between bursting the keep and going inside, as that requires some planning. A ram does not require anything but a few people.

The fact the ram is heavily the go-to choice for sieging a keep demonstrates that it is far too powerful. Essentially there should be some balance that is a solid and logical justification for change.

ZOS_Hadeostry · August 2022

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

Tberg725 · August 2022

1) The keep should flip faster when you have a large organized group that’s literally the point of people working together

2) When I’m in Cyrodiil I am always checking my map to see what’s flipping and what the other factions are doing to plan my move our groups have not had an issue defending keeps.. there has been times when I look at the map late and see a keep already flagged when that happens I throw it in zone that said keep is flagged and ask a group to go there and let them know our group is not far behind people tend to goto the keeps when they know reinforcements are on the way

3) being able to port to the keep while the keep is flagged is just ridiculous and probably one of the worst ideas I’ve ever herd of… a key strategy in pvp while taking a keep is to make sure a portion of the group does not leave siege while the other portion fights players and keeps them busy once that keep flags tho the Zerg on the other side is not so brave to come out I really don’t think you thought that one threw keeps would hardly EVER flip if the whole Zerg could just pop up at a keep while it’s flagged

Now onto this quote
“Organized PvDoor is now the optimal way to play for campaign score yet it's whole premise actively seeks to avoid PVP at all costs. These groups are also content to crouch for long periods waiting for a distraction before putting up 20 siege, preventing even the most fervent scouting efforts. Since there is no PVP counterplay, the only alternative is doing the same thing, thus culminating in the truly tragic phenomenon of PvDoor Trading”

There absolutely is counter play to this when your in a group of 12 and this seems to happen to 1 keep and the other faction seems to be making moves send 2 players to different keeps and rotate them players out every so often so they don’t get bored then they can send the signal that the other faction is rolling up

Also what you’re talking about is a legit strategic way to take a keep when a faction is just steam rolling there are times we are sitting at 1 bar while EP is pop locked so we take our group to a keep and stealth out start communicating to other crowns in zone they get a keep flagged and the Zerg is on the way to that location meanwhile we come out of stealth an bam 20/20 siege and get the job done so we’re making progress on the map instead of defending until we’re sitting gated because we are simply too out numbered to put up a defense and that takes organization and communication I’ve ran pug groups in pvp and you’d be surprised and how many people don’t put up siege and opt out to just sit on the Ram

At the end of the day Cyrodiil is an alliance war which means you, me or anyone else for that matter cannot win by ourselves it takes everyone

Cuddlypuff · August 2022

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

er...don't you use scouts inside keeps?

First of all, nobody scouts when they can fight. Secondly, these groups will crouch for up to 20 minutes if they have been failing often to wait for a distraction that can open a 80 second window. They could ride the entire length of the map just to hit a keep that nobody could possibly expect. Common example: PvDoor group rides north of carm and your faction scouts for 1-2 minutes before forgetting about them - 20 minutes later the group hits Dragonclaw.

Didgerion wrote: »

Once one group cannot be stopped there is nothing to stop them from flipping all them map, keep by keep.

I'm afraid the fast travel won't help.

No good ball group is going to flip every keep. They will just farm 1 keep forever. The groups I am talking about almost exclusively consist of below average players that will be wiped by any defensive presence. Anyone that knows my bomb duo will know that if we can bomb multiple times starting early in the siege, it's enough for any PvDoor group to call their raid and disband.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you or your faction aren't paying attention or watching the keeps that are likely to be hit by raids, then you're always going to be on the back foot when it comes to defense.

Not true. Good bombers and people that like to defend tend to have far better map sense than PvDoor crowns, so it's not a matter of them being incompetent or inattentive.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The majority of players are only on for an hour or so and not on every day. If defense is too strong and taking objectives too hard, those players will just see a static map where it is difficult to make an impact and they will shrug and leave.

This is a poor take because any new players seeing such behavior/outcomes are never going to learn how to take a contested keep, or even defend a keep effectively. Therefore they will continue down the PvDoor path and this is literally what you are seeing in Cyrodiil today. Please don't assume that PvDoor is the preferred playstyle for new PVPers and that they will find it more fun when it is simply a projection of your own playstyle.

geonsocal · August 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Hate to break it to you but night/early morning PvDoor capping has been the way alliances win campaigns for the past 6-7 years.

Yeah, this is simply not a new phenomenon. If you 20/20 a keep that is undefended, you are going to take it quickly, which has been true forever. Only way you stop that would be to lower siege limit or increase wall health, both of which would simply frustrate less organized groups.

End of the day, its a static map with more keeps than can possibly be defended at one time. That is the point, its designed so that keeps are constantly flipping. Always makes me chuckle when Zone Chat Generals rage about taking one keep and losing another. Its the whole flipping (pun intended) point, lol.

geonsocal wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Here's a simple experiment next time you go into Cyrodiil. Count how many of the total keep fights are actually defended (obviously a reasonable effort and not just 1 oiler, bomber or roof pugs that somehow managed to afk there and wake up in time).

i love this part of the post...many times i'm that one oiler...usually not too hard to figure out which keep/outpost/objective will be attacked next...

i totally agree with this part of your post:
Allow porting into a keep until flags start turning. The map is too big and the PvDoor is too fast for the current keep lighting / teleport blocking mechanics. Defense is objectively more fun than sieging in Cyrodiil and every keep deserves a chance to be defended.

I think that would be over the top. I think a better solution might be sort of a stoplight approach. Maybe keeps actually flag at say 75% and turn Red (no more porting) 25%. It would not be okay for you to have a group about to stand on the flags and a zerg ball ports into the keep.

that's a good adjustment @Oreyn_Bearclaw ...

it's funny, when your alliance pop starts getting real low and the keeps start falling fast - it's like trying to ride like the wind to at least slow down the process of being gated...

geonsocal · August 2022

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

The only thing better than a D Tick is a Re Tick.

it is easier to politely let a solo finish before taking over and flipping it back, rather than waste both of your time stalemating on top of the flag.

if i run in to someone between keeps, good chance i ain't messing with you - a flag fight though, oh heck no...there has to be a fight for that