PvDoor speedrunning has no counterplay and is killing Cyrodiil

Dr_Con

I read your post and all I have to say is Dressing Room + Sentry set.

I've run into these fabled Aldmeri Dominion rats crouching and hiding outside of Harluns outpost quite often after a failed Sejanu's Outpost push and yes they do wait for their form of engaging gameplay, but you can see everyone who is crouching IN RENDER DISTANCE for 10 seconds with this set. Have fun.

Cuddlypuff

It does seem that the overwhelming majority here support the speed PvDoor playstyle. I have some questions out of genuine curiosity, please don't take offence:
1. Do you enjoy defending keeps and hopefully collecting a big D-tick?
2. Do you enjoy pushing into and eventually taking a defended keep?
3. Do you push out from walls when defending a keep to slow down the lighting?
4. Do you push into a keep breaches to clear the path for the rest of the team?
5. Does it frustrate you when your faction does not know how to push out of a keep defence or push into a keep siege?
6. How do you feel when you stand on a wall / roof and watch members of your faction push out and wipe 12+ opponents at once? Would you use that opportunity to push out and stop the resses?
7. How do you feel when you sit outside a keep FD and watch your faction's 23k HP bombblade ride a mount in and bomb 12+ defenders over a meatbag. Would you use that opportunity to push in while the door is no longer under heavy siege?
8. Do you know the typical AP from defending is at least double of the AP from PvDoor?
9. Do you often go hours in Cyrodiil without attacking or even seeing a single enemy? Is this a good thing or a bad thing from your perspective?
10. Do you lament the typically low skill level of your PvDoor teammates when they wipe to 1-2 players? Do you think that PvDooring has stunted your development and potential as a PVPer?

TL;DR: Has the PvDoor meta caused a regression in the knowledge and ability of the average Cyrodiil population to defend / siege contested keeps, thus creating a self-fulfilling loop of PvDoor trading?

Reverb

This very moment, as you read this, AD is somewhere PVDooring a keep.

Dagoth_Rac

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

er...don't you use scouts inside keeps?

First of all, nobody scouts when they can fight. Secondly, these groups will crouch for up to 20 minutes if they have been failing often to wait for a distraction that can open a 80 second window. They could ride the entire length of the map just to hit a keep that nobody could possibly expect. Common example: PvDoor group rides north of carm and your faction scouts for 1-2 minutes before forgetting about them - 20 minutes later the group hits Dragonclaw.

Didgerion wrote: »

Once one group cannot be stopped there is nothing to stop them from flipping all them map, keep by keep.

I'm afraid the fast travel won't help.

No good ball group is going to flip every keep. They will just farm 1 keep forever. The groups I am talking about almost exclusively consist of below average players that will be wiped by any defensive presence. Anyone that knows my bomb duo will know that if we can bomb multiple times starting early in the siege, it's enough for any PvDoor group to call their raid and disband.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you or your faction aren't paying attention or watching the keeps that are likely to be hit by raids, then you're always going to be on the back foot when it comes to defense.

Not true. Good bombers and people that like to defend tend to have far better map sense than PvDoor crowns, so it's not a matter of them being incompetent or inattentive.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The majority of players are only on for an hour or so and not on every day. If defense is too strong and taking objectives too hard, those players will just see a static map where it is difficult to make an impact and they will shrug and leave.

This is a poor take because any new players seeing such behavior/outcomes are never going to learn how to take a contested keep, or even defend a keep effectively. Therefore they will continue down the PvDoor path and this is literally what you are seeing in Cyrodiil today. Please don't assume that PvDoor is the preferred playstyle for new PVPers and that they will find it more fun when it is simply a projection of your own playstyle.

I was not talking about PvDoor. I am not even talking about new players. I was talking about regular PvP attempts by non-optimized players and groups to take objectives. If you make taking keeps really hard for organized PvDoor groups, it will be borderline impossible for an average group to take a keep in PvP. I mean, if we make it where it takes a long time for 20 organized siege and no opposition to flip a keep, how long will it take less optimal groups with PvP opposition?

Keeps need to flip. Maybe not in 80 seconds, but in a reasonable amount of time. Most casual players want fights. But they also want to win or lose and move on. Not stalemates because keeps are too hard to take and defending is too easy.

deleted221205-002626

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Ever since plaguebreak bombing ended the tank meta, most groups have now adapted to speed PvDoor to prevent any chance of opponents making it to the objective in time to defend. Outposts are flipping within 30 seconds of lighting, and keeps flip within 80 seconds of lighting. From the moment you notice a keep lighting up, it is already literally impossible to port to the nearest waypoint and ride a max speed mount to the keep/outpost before it has flipped. You'd be lucky to even make it to the front door, let alone get in before it is repaired.

Organized PvDoor is now the optimal way to play for campaign score yet it's whole premise actively seeks to avoid PVP at all costs. These groups are also content to crouch for long periods waiting for a distraction before putting up 20 siege, preventing even the most fervent scouting efforts. Since there is no PVP counterplay, the only alternative is doing the same thing, thus culminating in the truly tragic phenomenon of PvDoor Trading.

Here's a simple experiment next time you go into Cyrodiil. Count how many of the total keep fights are actually defended (obviously a reasonable effort and not just 1 oiler, bomber or roof pugs that somehow managed to afk there and wake up in time). I would be shocked if less than 9 in 10 keep fights are completely undefended. Is it really intended for less than 10% of the objectives to actually be defended in a game mode focused on PVP and fighting over objectives?

This is the #1 reason why Cyrodiil is so terrible this patch. Say all you want about Oakensoul, Bowsorcs, Dcon, Plaguebreak, 1 Shot Gankers etc - at least all of those still involve PVP. I'd take all sorts of broken builds, skills and cheese over the complete avoidance of PVP.

The fix is simple. Allow porting into a keep until flags start turning. The map is too big and the PvDoor is too fast for the current keep lighting / teleport blocking mechanics. Defense is objectively more fun than sieging in Cyrodiil and every keep deserves a chance to be defended.

That was a thing since day1.. What we have now is pure zerg and noone watching all the keeps like we used to so theres no advanced notice. Need to watch them

olsborg

I cant agree more, I see more and more of these larger groups just interested in taking objectives (keeps etc) and avoiding pvp altogether unless it means just 12v1ing someone for the hell of it.
Also ballgroups.. especially in ravenwatch are ruining pvp due to lagg and no real counterplay to kill them because they all have 6 - 12 heals over time continously ticking wherever they go.

NordSwordnBoard

You can wipe 5 people on a ram that have no siege shield with 1 oil and 1 Lancer by yourself. More organized groups won't die, but are forced off the ram.
It seems like organization is the problem. You see one keep with two full attacking groups running only 8 siege. Elsweyr, 5 attakers set up a ram, 4 ballistas around it, and 4 more in a diamond for another attacker. This variance makes balance a nightmare.
If I'm not mistaken, the devs want fights to end decisively and not result in faction stacks at one keep like its the last emp keep. I used to love the huge battles like that, but the lag is proportionate to the number of fighters.
Also, I want to counter a point OP made, I will chill over front door while taking a break and patrol a keep that's otherwise empty. The purpose is to call out the number and color for the alliance, as they pull up- giving enough time for your allies to get into a keep and port or stone. So many people call too late or not at all.

Amottica

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

1. Do you enjoy defending keeps and hopefully collecting a big D-tick?

It does not need to be about the D-tick. Is just like having a build where you stun a player and are able to kill them before they have any time to break free. That is not really PvP because it is fairly lame. The same applies to PvDoor and it is called that because more times than not it avoids players fighting back. Sure, it is easy and the group accomplishes something in the end but it is fairly lame on many levels. It is also the opposite of the intentions of Cyrodiil.

In reality, it is sad that accomplishing what is supposed to be a significant task, capturing an enemy keep, is easier, and requires less player skill, than pretty much all dungeon bosses and trials.

VaranisArano

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

It does seem that the overwhelming majority here support the speed PvDoor playstyle. I have some questions out of genuine curiosity, please don't take offence:
1. Do you enjoy defending keeps and hopefully collecting a big D-tick?
2. Do you enjoy pushing into and eventually taking a defended keep?
3. Do you push out from walls when defending a keep to slow down the lighting?
4. Do you push into a keep breaches to clear the path for the rest of the team?
5. Does it frustrate you when your faction does not know how to push out of a keep defence or push into a keep siege?
6. How do you feel when you stand on a wall / roof and watch members of your faction push out and wipe 12+ opponents at once? Would you use that opportunity to push out and stop the resses?
7. How do you feel when you sit outside a keep FD and watch your faction's 23k HP bombblade ride a mount in and bomb 12+ defenders over a meatbag. Would you use that opportunity to push in while the door is no longer under heavy siege?
8. Do you know the typical AP from defending is at least double of the AP from PvDoor?
9. Do you often go hours in Cyrodiil without attacking or even seeing a single enemy? Is this a good thing or a bad thing from your perspective?
10. Do you lament the typically low skill level of your PvDoor teammates when they wipe to 1-2 players? Do you think that PvDooring has stunted your development and potential as a PVPer?

TL;DR: Has the PvDoor meta caused a regression in the knowledge and ability of the average Cyrodiil population to defend / siege contested keeps, thus creating a self-fulfilling loop of PvDoor trading?

PvDoor is a tactic That's seen frequent use since at least 2016 when I started really PVPing on a weekly basis.

So, no, it hasn't caused a regression in player ability or willingness to defend keeps. If your campaign is seeing a bunch of keep-trading, then that's something that the players on your campaign have decided to do.

Your questions reveal a couple points I'd like to address in general rather than responding to each one.

1. PvDoor only works when the opponents are stretched too thin, not scouting, or not expecting it. You can counter it by scouting at-risk keeps and anticipating where the enemy is likely to strike. PUGs are not very good at this, so if you want players who can respond in time for fast defenses or who are willing to wait around to ambush an enemy guild, you probably want a guild of your own. (And yes, correctly predicting the enemy guild and ambushing them as they rush in to an "empty" keep is hella fun.)

2. All of that behavior you described like hanging back in a siege, not pushing into breaches, etc. is all very typical of PUGs and has been since at least 2016. Unless you are a very charismatic Zone General, herding PUGs is like herding cats. If you want players to play how you want when you want, you need a guild.

3. Here's a brief illustration of what it was like to play in my guild:

We hit a heavily defended ring keep during an Emp push or dethrone: "OMG, you guilds make the game so laggy! Go somewhere else."

We hit a lightly defended back keep in order to draw reinforcements away from the ring so the rest of our faction can capture an objective: "OMG, all you guilds do is PvDoor!"

We defend a heavily contested keep for a long time: "OMG, now you're just farming enemy PUGs and that's just unfun for everyone and you're ruining the game!"

I mean, no offense, but we did it all. The same guild doing PvDoor at Dragonclaw was there defending Blue Road Keep tooth and nail twenty minutes later. Nothing made zone chat or the forum complainers happy, so we did what made us happy, which was helping our faction.

When you play in a guild, everyone and their mother wants to tell you you're doing it wrong. So you shrug and fight where you want to or where it best suits your faction. Sometimes that means getting fast O-ticks. Sometimes that means getting drawn out D-ticks.

Oh, and it also means that players who aren't min-maxed for playing in a guild laugh and call you low skill when you die in your min-maxed build once you aren't with your guildmates. I mean, I was a guild healer. I'm not built to survive a 1v1 duel, because if I was, I'd be that much less effective at being a guild healer. Sorry, not sorry, I'd rather be an effective healer while playing with my guild.


Frankly, the answer to your questions that you aren't looking for: the real counterplay to sitting there griping that your faction isn't very good at defending keeps or anticipating PvDoor tactics is to get yourself a good guild or make one. If you want guaranteed backup and players who like defending as much as you do, you really need a guild of your own.

xDeusEJRx

I have no problem with pvdoor'ing if there's an even(or relatively decent) spread of faction population in the server.

But the problem with PVDooring is that in most situations, the winning faction, also has the most population and Pvdoor's the other alliances out of the campaign. They keep them gated when they have no one online, keep every resource their color and the moment 1 person flags anything they faction stack zerg them repeatedly until they leave.

The amount of times I've seen Ad, DC and EP control everything and not allow any other faction to even push a single resource is astounding and reason why I keep a character for every faction when this happens.

PVDooring empty servers or servers your faction already controls everything to is the PVDoor that is bad in my opinion.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

This would be a welcome change less horse sim is usually good. Cyro is already too big for these pop caps. Honestly shrink map by 1/2 at this point could even help with some defenses in theory.

Just as an example if the ride from Glade to Ray was 20 seconds shorter you’d be catching a group before inner breach instead of after on flags.

But let’s not forget performance either. I’m nearly positive everyone in this thread has ported into a keep that wasn’t flagged only render into an inner at 60 percent. Maybe with a PvD keep attack this wouldn’t be a problem but I could still see it causing even more performance issues.

Iriidius

If you are speedcapping because your enemy also doesnt fight fair and will zerg you down otherwise it is ok. But PvDoorer want to have every keep, outpost, ressoursse and scroll and that other alliances have nothing without beating them in a fight.

Even if there is enaugh time to arrive and defend the keep or if the attack on the keep was predictable often no defenders show up.

Often PvDoorer, especially nightcappers will speedcap to prevent defenders from arriving in time when I am the only one defending. After speedcapping a keep they will often wait before attacking the next one, hoping i go offline/to bed/get bored and do something else.

Some morning at 10am during midyear mayham after AD had morningcapped the whole map EP was pop locked and took the whole map while other alliances where at 1 bar and low population bonus. Then dc rose to 2bars and startet sieging back its keep with 40 men zerg and no Ep showed up to defend except me and maybe 2 others. DC took keep after keep with 2 bars and low pop bonus and althought Pakt still was pop locked nobody came to defend. A few Pakt members tried to take back blue keeps, loosing hammer to dc, while the majority of Pakt did nothing. Finally dc rose to pop locked, dethroned EP Emperor and most Pakt players left without even having tried to defend. Some players stayed and tried to take back the blue keeps when dc stopped to PvDoor us and was busy with AD.

OBJnoob

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

The only thing better than a D Tick is a Re Tick.

What? A D-Tick can go up to several hundred thousand AP. A Re-Tick is 6K. This line is only valid for RSS where it is easier to politely let a solo finish before taking over and flipping it back, rather than waste both of your time stalemating on top of the flag.

Super late responding to this so… sorry, not trying to derail the current discussion, but do want to say something…

See I just think it’s kinda funny that that is how you view things. Don’t get me wrong, I know that’s how most people view things too, but does it fit the current discussion and is it consistent with the larger stance you’re trying to have?

You want pvdooring to stop so there can be more “real pvp.” So it seems like you’d prefer to just fight deathmatch style as much as possible and I feel like you aren’t the type of person to go capture a drakelowe or a brindle for the 8% AP or whatever. Probably not too obsessed with scrolls or emp either, right, unless it happens organically along the way of fighting.

So if those assumptions are mostly true I just don’t know why it matters to you so much how much AP you get after a battle. Isn’t it enough to have been in a battle? The battle is clearly more important to you than the objective…

So with that in mind, it’s really just a little rhyme I say to my pvp groups sometimes when someone says “ aw crap, they’re on flags already.” “That’s okay, the only thing better than a D Tick is a Re Tick.” Just something meant to be slightly clever and mostly funny. In the spirit of— who cares we’re gonna take it back anyway.

So I’m kinda surprised you don’t agree with that state of mind. I mean if you just want AP then I suggest you start pvdooring. And don’t forget to bring your wood repair kits.

Cuddlypuff

VaranisArano wrote: »

Frankly, the answer to your questions that you aren't looking for: the real counterplay to sitting there griping that your faction isn't very good at defending keeps or anticipating PvDoor tactics is to get yourself a good guild or make one. If you want guaranteed backup and players who like defending as much as you do, you really need a guild of your own.

With all due respect, nobody needs a guild to wipe pugs off a door when one bomber is all it takes.

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just as an example if the ride from Glade to Ray was 20 seconds shorter you’d be catching a group before inner breach instead of after on flags.

This is exactly the problem. It used to be just one or two groups that exclusively max sieged empty doors. Now it is practically every single group in the server. The frustration is not even in failing to wipe them. It's being denied the chance to even try.

Iriidius wrote: »

Often PvDoorer, especially nightcappers will speedcap to prevent defenders from arriving in time when I am the only one defending. After speedcapping a keep they will often wait before attacking the next one, hoping i go offline/to bed/get bored and do something else.

The nightcapping mentality is usually quite fragile and can't deal with the stress of multiple bombs per door take. I'm pretty sure I've caused some to log off prematurely / move onto gating the other faction before even getting to trikeeps or scrolls.

OBJnoob wrote: »

So if those assumptions are mostly true I just don’t know why it matters to you so much how much AP you get after a battle. Isn’t it enough to have been in a battle? The battle is clearly more important to you than the objective…

The point here is that many defenders would prefer that "the battle" occur inside the keep before flags are 100% turned, as opposed to hitting a closed outer front door.

OBJnoob

Yes I'm sure defenders would like a(nother) advantage. Not sure that's a good enough reason to make changes.

deleted221205-002626

Amottica wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

1. Do you enjoy defending keeps and hopefully collecting a big D-tick?

In reality, it is sad that accomplishing what is supposed to be a significant task, capturing an enemy keep, is easier, and requires less player skill, than pretty much all dungeon bosses and trials.

It shouldnt but with 90% of people afk at the transitus.... they cant even hear the siege on the FD usually from there and have no clue whats even going on until it flags and is usually too late. If people actively watched more there would be some defense and stalling allowing your teammates to arrive

OBJnoob

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

er...don't you use scouts inside keeps?

First of all, nobody scouts when they can fight. Secondly, these groups will crouch for up to 20 minutes if they have been failing often to wait for a distraction that can open a 80 second window. They could ride the entire length of the map just to hit a keep that nobody could possibly expect. Common example: PvDoor group rides north of carm and your faction scouts for 1-2 minutes before forgetting about them - 20 minutes later the group hits Dragonclaw.

Didgerion wrote: »

Once one group cannot be stopped there is nothing to stop them from flipping all them map, keep by keep.

I'm afraid the fast travel won't help.

No good ball group is going to flip every keep. They will just farm 1 keep forever. The groups I am talking about almost exclusively consist of below average players that will be wiped by any defensive presence. Anyone that knows my bomb duo will know that if we can bomb multiple times starting early in the siege, it's enough for any PvDoor group to call their raid and disband.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you or your faction aren't paying attention or watching the keeps that are likely to be hit by raids, then you're always going to be on the back foot when it comes to defense.

Not true. Good bombers and people that like to defend tend to have far better map sense than PvDoor crowns, so it's not a matter of them being incompetent or inattentive.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The majority of players are only on for an hour or so and not on every day. If defense is too strong and taking objectives too hard, those players will just see a static map where it is difficult to make an impact and they will shrug and leave.

This is a poor take because any new players seeing such behavior/outcomes are never going to learn how to take a contested keep, or even defend a keep effectively. Therefore they will continue down the PvDoor path and this is literally what you are seeing in Cyrodiil today. Please don't assume that PvDoor is the preferred playstyle for new PVPers and that they will find it more fun when it is simply a projection of your own playstyle.

So okay, ignoring my own little side rant about re ticks (TM btw,) I was reading through the thread trying to educate myself on others’ opinions and stuff, and I found THIS. If you’re reading this, please drop down all the quotes and quotes to see the whole thing because I’d really like this exchange to speak for itself.

About what we all just read: I gotta say one thing, if I’m giving my HONEST opinion. It sounds very much like you’re a fairly talented bomber, part of a bomber team, and by your own words farm below average players incessantly. And you take exception to them trying to avoid you and want to force them into you more often.

No.

Cuddlypuff

OBJnoob wrote: »

About what we all just read: I gotta say one thing, if I’m giving my HONEST opinion. It sounds very much like you’re a fairly talented bomber, part of a bomber team, and by your own words farm below average players incessantly. And you take exception to them trying to avoid you and want to force them into you more often.

No such agenda here. There are plenty of things to bomb in Cyrodiil besides door pugs when you are a "talented bomber". Many people are simply not fans of letting keeps go for free with no chance to defend, especially when already at a population disadvantage.

More importantly, the main takeaway from this should be that PvDoor is not going to help anybody get into PVP. I'm not saying people PvDoor because they are "below average". They are "below average" because they only PvDoor and nothing else, therefore will never improve, and so their only answer to failure is to PvDoor even faster and crouch for even longer.

The only thing worse than PvDoor groups on other factions is those on your own faction. They paralyze the flow of the map by tying up opponents who are now too busy scouting / defending to push. PvDoor hurts everyone except for PvDoor enthusiasts themselves - please don't portray it as an innocent, victimless playstyle.

SaffronCitrusflower

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

About what we all just read: I gotta say one thing, if I’m giving my HONEST opinion. It sounds very much like you’re a fairly talented bomber, part of a bomber team, and by your own words farm below average players incessantly. And you take exception to them trying to avoid you and want to force them into you more often.

No such agenda here. There are plenty of things to bomb in Cyrodiil besides door pugs when you are a "talented bomber". Many people are simply not fans of letting keeps go for free with no chance to defend, especially when already at a population disadvantage.

More importantly, the main takeaway from this should be that PvDoor is not going to help anybody get into PVP. I'm not saying people PvDoor because they are "below average". They are "below average" because they only PvDoor and nothing else, therefore will never improve, and so their only answer to failure is to PvDoor even faster and crouch for even longer.

The only thing worse than PvDoor groups on other factions is those on your own faction. They paralyze the flow of the map by tying up opponents who are now too busy scouting / defending to push. PvDoor hurts everyone except for PvDoor enthusiasts themselves - please don't portray it as an innocent, victimless playstyle.

I think the worst thing in cyrodiil are elitists that never do anything to help their faction and instead do nothing but farm AP for themselves.

VaranisArano

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Frankly, the answer to your questions that you aren't looking for: the real counterplay to sitting there griping that your faction isn't very good at defending keeps or anticipating PvDoor tactics is to get yourself a good guild or make one. If you want guaranteed backup and players who like defending as much as you do, you really need a guild of your own.

With all due respect, nobody needs a guild to wipe pugs off a door when one bomber is all it takes.

Then why are you complaining? If one good bomber is all it takes, go do the job right yourself.

Gotta say, a lot of times when my guild would get hit by a bomber, it was after we'd PvDoored a back keep. The bomber would wait for us to finish up, and then bomb us during the repairs.

There was one DC bomber who was really good at it; guilds see a lot of bad bombers, but they were really good at sneaking in even when we were looking for them. They must've spent most of their time in Bruma because we'd hit Dragonclaw in order to draw off reinforcements from Chalman or Bleakers, and they'd be waiting for us to get distracted with repairs. Then boom.

Now imagine that as PvDoor counterplay in which you keep an eye on the map and predict which keeps the guilds are going to. Then you bomb them while they're distracted by siegeing open what they think is an empty keep. (But that would require you to pay attention to the map and predict obvious targets.)


Though it suddenly makes sense why no one is backing you up during keep defenses or pushing through the breaches. When I was PUGing, I'd throw a random bomber some heals but I wouldn't stick my neck out. If you want guaranteed backup, I suggest getting yourself a guild.

Cuddlypuff

SizanLopkniht wrote: »

I think the worst thing in cyrodiil are elitists that never do anything to help their faction and instead do nothing but farm AP for themselves.

No idea who or what you are talking about mate. You're way off-topic and this is not the right forum to project insecurities.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Then why are you complaining? If one good bomber is all it takes, go do the job right yourself.

Gotta say, a lot of times when my guild would get hit by a bomber, it was after we'd PvDoored a back keep. The bomber would wait for us to finish up, and then bomb us during the repairs.

There was one DC bomber who was really good at it; guilds see a lot of bad bombers, but they were really good at sneaking in even when we were looking for them. They must've spent most of their time in Bruma because we'd hit Dragonclaw in order to draw off reinforcements from Chalman or Bleakers, and they'd be waiting for us to get distracted with repairs. Then boom.

Few things here. I do the job if I can get there - don't you worry about that. Your example of the Dclaw door repair bomber is quite frankly counterproductive, and I suggest that you and your guild just use Miat's if you are on PC to avoid teamwiping to something as simple as a surprise bomb. With respect to map/score, obviously that bomber should have hit earlier to slow down the lighting or keep the doors open. With respect to AP, the math is also quite simple. The door repair bomb is probably 12x 2K AP for 24K of combat ticks. If that bomber hit the ram immediately and only managed 3-4 kills, it would be a 40-50K D-tick on top of 8K of combat ticks. This isn't even including additional AP from their 2nd/3rd/4th bombs attempts etc. No experienced bomber would prefer to bomb the final door repair over the initial outer ram.

VaranisArano

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

SizanLopkniht wrote: »

I think the worst thing in cyrodiil are elitists that never do anything to help their faction and instead do nothing but farm AP for themselves.

No idea who or what you are talking about mate. You're way off-topic and this is not the right forum to project insecurities.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Then why are you complaining? If one good bomber is all it takes, go do the job right yourself.

Gotta say, a lot of times when my guild would get hit by a bomber, it was after we'd PvDoored a back keep. The bomber would wait for us to finish up, and then bomb us during the repairs.

There was one DC bomber who was really good at it; guilds see a lot of bad bombers, but they were really good at sneaking in even when we were looking for them. They must've spent most of their time in Bruma because we'd hit Dragonclaw in order to draw off reinforcements from Chalman or Bleakers, and they'd be waiting for us to get distracted with repairs. Then boom.

Few things here. I do the job if I can get there - don't you worry about that. Your example of the Dclaw door repair bomber is quite frankly counterproductive, and I suggest that you and your guild just use Miat's if you are on PC to avoid teamwiping to something as simple as a surprise bomb. With respect to map/score, obviously that bomber should have hit earlier to slow down the lighting or keep the doors open. With respect to AP, the math is also quite simple. The door repair bomb is probably 12x 2K AP for 24K of combat ticks. If that bomber hit the ram immediately and only managed 3-4 kills, it would be a 40-50K D-tick on top of 8K of combat ticks. This isn't even including additional AP from their 2nd/3rd/4th bombs attempts etc. No experienced bomber would prefer to bomb the final door repair over the initial outer ram.

In my example, my assumption is that the bomber was usually ganking in Bruma, and then booked it up to Dragonclaw once they saw it flag in time to hit us on the door as we were finishing.

But what I don't understand is why, since you clearly understand that waiting in a keep that's likely to be PvDoored and then bombing the initial outer ram is good counterplay, you keep saying there's no counterplay. Like, if you want to hit an organized guild on the first ram, you basically have to be there when they ride up and it sounds to me like you understand how to make that tactic effective.

It's on you to get to the keep in time or already be there waiting if you want the D-tick. You shouldn't need ZOS to make it easier for you to get in position for a good bomb by changing the flag timers. It's just not that hard to guess where the zerg or the guilds are going next, set up to scout out their likely target, and be waiting at the objective or ready to port to it.

OBJnoob

I think the problem is the OP isn’t necessarily part of a bigger group or guild, at least not in constant communication, and can’t afford to set up scouts because of a lack of bodies. Which is a shame for sure but I don’t know if it’s a problem.

I’m sure the group of average-at-best players think bombing needs more counterplay (and they’re probably right,) but they’re using the only counterplay they know how— avoiding the bomber— and I fully support their right to do so and do not think it’s a flaw in their pvp style at all.

OP you might not think you have any ill intentions but your suggestions are hugely unfair and single-sided nevertheless. Frankly yours just isn’t an admirable enough play style for you to be complaining. They probably don’t want to pvdoor they just prefer pvp to pve and, from their perspective, keep getting cheesed to death.

red_emu

I always said this: BUFF the guards! Have guard NPCs with balistas on the stick out corner walls to shoot enemy siege, other NPCs with oil ready above MG. Give mage guards abilities that slowly burn siege, rams, etc. Increase their damage significantly the deeper you get into the keep or based on number of PC defenders.

It's silly that a keep can be taken by 3 players and the guards die to 2 hits. It should be way more difficult or take way more time to take the flags as well.

Xarc

PVD 1 keep is OK.

PVD 10 keeps in a row is something else. I mean, if theses players want to avoid pvp, why coming to cyrodiil ?

Xarc

It would be better to reward places defended by players.
And taking a place defended by players.

An empty place shouldnt give so much alliance points, it makes people doing PVD sessions that ruin pvp experience of people who want their faction with them to do what they came for : pvp

VaranisArano

Xarc wrote: »

PVD 1 keep is OK.

PVD 10 keeps in a row is something else. I mean, if theses players want to avoid pvp, why coming to cyrodiil ?

If someone is PvDooring 10 keeps in a row, either that campaign is practically empty or the defenders are not defending some obvious targets.

Four_Fingers

Xarc wrote: »

PVD 1 keep is OK.

PVD 10 keeps in a row is something else. I mean, if theses players want to avoid pvp, why coming to cyrodiil ?

Conversely if you are only concentrating on PvP kills maybe BG deathmatches are better.

SaffronCitrusflower

Points are how factions win the campaign. That means taking and holding objectives like keeps, outposts and resources.

How is it possible that earning points for the faction in an effort to win the campaign be objectionable to some players?

Jaraal

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

PVD 1 keep is OK.

PVD 10 keeps in a row is something else. I mean, if theses players want to avoid pvp, why coming to cyrodiil ?

Conversely if you are only concentrating on PvP kills maybe BG deathmatches are better.

It's a lot easier AP bombing unsuspecting door repairers than fighting 4 straight up.

I'm not a bomber, but that's part of the appeal of Cyro for those who are.

On a side note: You can hold block and repair at the same time. You'd be surprised how few people know that.