The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Any reason why Streak must be unblockable?
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jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Streak costs around 3600 magicka at base. And increases by 33% each cast. Just 3 casts of streak has a cost in the area of 15K. Sorcs are not regaining that with one Dark Conversion. And it takes more than 3 casts of streak to get far enough away from a fight to flee. Especially when they have most likely already expended magicka during the fight they are fleeing from.
You need just 2 most of the time, it is covered with 2 conversions + natural renens, 1 sec interval, 2 more streaks. And don't say that 45k+ magica sorcs ever run out of mana for tripple streak. Sounds like very cool story.
Even then, if you use streak for escaping, why unblockable property of streak bothers you?
Every class has access to an unblockable stun. EVERY CLASS. Sorcs is literally the worst of them because it puts you behind the enemy you are stunning, preventing you from reliably following up the stun with an attack.
And no, Rune Cage is not a valid alternative. Because it is the most highly telegraphed stun in the game that can be dodged. It's essentially useless.
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divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭And no, Rune Cage is not a valid alternative. Because it is the most highly telegraphed stun in the game that can be dodged. It's essentially useless.
Then buff rune cage at the same patch, problem solved?0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭all spells have 3 beneficial effects to them. Some have 4 because 1 is a negative.
streak has too many benefits to it. Gap closer, gap maker (this and nightblade shade are the only ones in the game), unavoidable, cc, deals damage. There's 5 benefits instead of 3. You could say 4 because 1 is negative being increased cost,
butFriedEggSandwich wrote: »-Exponential cost, so can't be spammed.
streak is literally spammed in cyrodiil and bgs and everywhere, even in no-cp. Idk what cost is that but it's ignored entirely, especially when you stop for 1-2 seconds to cast a deal and regain all ur mag back.
and, even so, spell is overtuned. It needs to lose something to be in line with others. For example nb shade also has no counter, and is a gap closer and a gap maker, but does not cc you.
Dark Conversion provides 2400 magicka over 20 seconds. No sorc is just regaining the magicka costs for Streak in 1-2 seconds.
Streak costs around 3600 magicka at base. And increases by 33% each cast. Just 3 casts of streak has a cost in the area of 15K. Sorcs are not regaining that with one Dark Conversion. And it takes more than 3 casts of streak to get far enough away from a fight to flee. Especially when they have most likely already expended magicka during the fight they are fleeing from.
[snip] Go into a main campaign in cyro and roam overland around keeps. Sorcs are streaking forever, then have the resources to also come back and nuke you. All this while not dropping health below their hp under shields.
[snip]
Streak costs 3600 magicka and has an increase of 33% per cast? Fact.
3 Streaks in a row cost around 15K magicka? Fact.
Dark Conversion only provides 2400 magicka over a 20 second interval? Fact.
Sorcs are not streaking forever in Cyrodil and shields are not as good as you are making them to be.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 26, 2021 3:15PM4 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
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We already had that. And people lost their minds when rune cage was undodgeable and unblockable. Like the forums exploded.
The fact is, the majority of a sorc's burst is dodgeable. Without a reliable stun, sorcs will literally be useless in combat because everything they do will just be dodged, and against some classes also purged.
And it makes it even worse when that stun literally puts a ranged class in melee range and behind a player. I can streak through an opponent to stun them and if that burst doesn't kill them I literally cannot retarget them to get the kill and likely good players are at full health again almost immediately.4 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dark Conversion only provides 2400 magicka over a 20 second interval?
Bargain with darkness to restore 8090 Health and 3600 Magicka instantlySorcs are not streaking forever in Cyrodil and shields are not as good as you are making them to be.
I have healsorc that sits behind 20k shields in 2 casts. That's not even Empowered Ward morph. That's not even max magica build (tho close to one). 12k shield in 1 cast is possible. Compared with HP% heals, that's 24k HP worth of base heal, or 70k HP with ~30% heals. And they nerf HP% heals, mind you.2 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.
You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dark Conversion only provides 2400 magicka over a 20 second interval?
Bargain with darkness to restore 8090 Health and 3600 Magicka instantlySorcs are not streaking forever in Cyrodil and shields are not as good as you are making them to be.
I have healsorc that sits behind 20k shields in 2 casts. That's not even Empowered Ward morph. That's not even max magica build (tho close to one). 12k shield in 1 cast is possible. Compared with HP% heals, that's 24k HP worth of base heal, or 70k HP with ~30% heals. And they nerf HP% heals, mind you.
Shields take crit damage. They don't crit themselves. They don't scale to players attacking. They are expensive. They have CP counters that make players do more damage to them. They are destroyed in usually 1 spammable with a light attack.
Also, every mag class has access to a shield that is just as effective as the Sorc's shield.2 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭1 spammable with light attack hits 12k? C:
Every mag have shields, true. Not every mag have another mag magica % boost, and second shield with same strength.1 -
Rahar✭✭✭✭I think there's a lot of exaggerated claims about what magsorc can do being thrown around in this thread, so I'll try and clear the air a little bit:- As the post above me mentions, streak has an exponential cost, and it's not cheap nor something you can get back in 2 dark deals. In addition, 3 streaks very very rarely gets you out of hot water unless you have your shields up when you start casting them AND have something to hide behind when you get there. You'll either die while streaking (assuming 2-4 okayish players are damaging you, remember, streak doesn't eat projectiles) or shortly after you arrive when they catch up with major exp and you're still trying to get your second dark deal off. I've had times when I got away, yeah, but I'm not a DK or Warden. I don't get to block (0 mitigation on shields lmao) nor do I have tons of good defenses built in to my class. It's really hard to compare classes 1:1, but I'll touch on that later. However, if we're talking about getting away from a 1v1, pretty much any class is capable of this with an invis pot, mist, cloak, what have you.
- There are other fringe ways to deal with streak that don't involve LOS. You could pre-vigor, pre-shield, pre-shimmering/wings or pre-anything because magsorc burst is really, really telegraphed. We have to stack our curse with frags or overload when we want to deal a lot of damage fast, and both of those have big tells kinda like the mage guild comet, lol. We also have to turn our cam in a xbox 360 and walk away kickflip maneuver to hit that, and depending on the sorc some will be better or worse at it, but all of them with a delay that gives you a decent window to break free and roll just because of the physical limitation. It's a little different for stam, but another poster has covered that already, and it sounds like the main issue is vateshran anyway... which yeah, is an issue. In short: just don't be caught with your pants down?
- Circling back to something brought up in my point above: It's really hard to compare classes 1:1. You can't just go as low level as # of effects, because if we balanced based on that we'd have to gut a lot of passives and make a lot of classes a boring paste. A better indication of what's powerful right now is what tons of people are running or are switching to, like stamwarden, lol. My point here is that even if it looks like streak has a lot of effects, it has them for a reason that supplements a certain style of engagement. Not that it couldn't be adjusted -- we'd just adapt like always -- but claiming it's OP based on # of effects alone isn't a strong reason to nerf it.
NeRf MaGsOrC2 -
fbours✭✭✭Streak costs around 3600 magicka at base. And increases by 33% each cast. Just 3 casts of streak has a cost in the area of 15K. Sorcs are not regaining that with one Dark Conversion. And it takes more than 3 casts of streak to get far enough away from a fight to flee. Especially when they have most likely already expended magicka during the fight they are fleeing from.
You need just 2 most of the time, it is covered with 2 conversions + natural renens, 1 sec interval, 2 more streaks. And don't say that 45k+ magica sorcs ever run out of mana for tripple streak. Sounds like very cool story.
Even then, if you use streak for escaping, why unblockable property of streak bothers you?
I thought you were talking about stamsorcs being the problem? Stamsorcs have 15k magicka at most.2 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭A better indication of what's powerful right now is what tons of people are running or are switching to
Do you understand that with raw +1k damages people switching to magsorc (max magica) and stamsorc (azure, 2h vate) now in BGs? You hit yourself with your own criteria.1 -
Rahar✭✭✭✭
Sure, if you assume that people run magsorc because it's the bee's knees. But I know better. People run it because Fury can rack up points in a deathmatch pretty quickly. Stam anything is almost universally better in a high MMR BG, especially warden or necro.NeRf MaGsOrC5 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stam anything is almost universally better in a high MMR BG
... with exception to magsorc. Seriously. Don't downplay magsorcs in current meta. It's not only about execute, they are doing great overall. Shields, movement, sustain, stat-dependant damage, stat-dependant burst. Only thing they don't do is AoE.Edited by divnyi on April 26, 2021 4:16PM1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
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Trade the unblockable stun that must be done in close quarters that puts the sorcerer facing the wrong way (and thus awkward follow up) for an unblockable, undodgeable stun at 40 meters away that can smoothly followed up by a class that excels at long range burst?
We've already been through that and never was the "Nerf sorc!" cry so loud.5 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »for an unblockable, undodgeable stun at 40 meters away that can smoothly followed up by a class that excels at long range burst?
Reduce range to 22m, so sorc have to go in dash range.
You see, I know the sorc weak point. It's bar space. And I know that no magsorc would ever go without teleport, whatever you do to it. So that would mean +1 skill on the bars. That means something goes out. Something valuable, because everything is valuable.1 -
Rahar✭✭✭✭Stam anything is almost universally better in a high MMR BG
... with exception to magsorc. Seriously. Don't downplay magsorcs in current meta. It's not only about execute, they are doing great overall. Shields, movement, sustain, stat-dependant damage, stat-dependant burst. Only thing they don't do is AoE.
Of course I'm not downplaying their strength. Check my post history if you want, but I've always said magsorc is strong. But that's it. Strong. Not OP, not needs a nerf, just strong and competitive. They're the big bro of mag and what all mag classes should be. Where did you ever get the inkling that I was trying to claim otherwise? The hill I will die on, though, is that most stam classes are more competitive in BGs.NeRf MaGsOrC2 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Whatever you do to sorc dont put the uncounterable stun back on rune cage lmao. I tried magsorc during summerset and the only counterplay was have a purge or be a tank.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.4 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭They're the big bro of mag and what all mag classes should be.
If you make mages stronger over the board, guess who will be OP in that same instant?
Yes, mages need some love. But that means sorc nerf too.1 -
Rahar✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »for an unblockable, undodgeable stun at 40 meters away that can smoothly followed up by a class that excels at long range burst?
Reduce range to 22m, so sorc have to go in dash range.
You see, I know the sorc weak point. It's bar space. And I know that no magsorc would ever go without teleport, whatever you do to it. So that would mean +1 skill on the bars. That means something goes out. Something valuable, because everything is valuable.
Be careful what you wish for, lol. If rune cage got reverted I'd just change streak to BoL and throw it on the backbar, put rune cage on the front bar replacing the all-too-often unreliable fury, and stomp all over pretty much anyone who even looked at me.NeRf MaGsOrC1 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭If rune cage got reverted I'd just change streak to BoL and throw it on the backbar, put rune cage on the front bar replacing the all-too-often unreliable fury, and stomp all over pretty much anyone who even looked at me.
Well, you can always reduce the radius even further. Nobody uses 14m flame staff clench, for example. I don't think this skill will be that different.1 -
fbours✭✭✭This post derailed to nerf magsorc way to fast. This was about stamsorc ability to one shot opponents using streak with 0 counterplay. Hilarious. What is it?1
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divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭This post derailed to nerf magsorc way to fast. This was about stamsorc ability to one shot opponents using streak with 0 counterplay. Hilarious. What is it?
Whoever joins to defend unblockable streak *shrugs*
I mean removing it will nerf magsorcs too. Not even enough for them to stop being best mag class, mind you, but ppl don't want even that.1 -
fbours✭✭✭This post derailed to nerf magsorc way to fast. This was about stamsorc ability to one shot opponents using streak with 0 counterplay. Hilarious. What is it?
Whoever joins to defend unblockable streak *shrugs*
I mean removing it will nerf magsorcs too. Not even enough for them to stop being best mag class, mind you, but ppl don't want even that.
I believe you are being bias trying to prove your point by giving magsorc examples as to why streak is OP. This post started as stamsorc streak/vat 2h/crystal wep and their one shot potential - many different factors, not one related to streak.
You are the OP, as you stated before, don't derail the conversation to magsorc as it shows how bias you are being.
Please answer these two simple questions.
1. What class/spec is your main. Even with 8 classes you have one main.
2. Have you played a stamsorc in high mmr/cyrodiil?
I would like to understand better your background so I can help you learn how to counter a stamsorc, not a magsorc.
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divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭What class/spec is your main. Even with 8 classes you have one main.
Wrong assumption.This post started as stamsorc streak/vat 2h/crystal wep and their one shot potential - many different factors, not one related to streak.
"not one related to streak" - what a good example of unbiased
Many classes have burst combos. Only one delivers combos with undodgeable and unblockable stun from range with full combo as follow-up. Maybe the follow-up is too strong. But I would be perfectly fine with it if combo itself would be interactable. It is not, because Streak.I would like to understand better your background so I can help you learn how to counter a stamsorc, not a magsorc.
Did I ask for advice?0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What class/spec is your main. Even with 8 classes you have one main.
Wrong assumption.This post started as stamsorc streak/vat 2h/crystal wep and their one shot potential - many different factors, not one related to streak.
"not one related to streak" - what a good example of unbiased
Many classes have burst combos. Only one delivers combos with undodgeable and unblockable stun from range with full combo as follow-up. Maybe the follow-up is too strong. But I would be perfectly fine with it if combo itself would be interactable. It is not, because Streak.I would like to understand better your background so I can help you learn how to counter a stamsorc, not a magsorc.
Did I ask for advice?
How are sorcs performing a full follow up combo after a streak. They are facing the wrong direction after the streak ends. And spend an entire global cooldown at best turning back around to target the opponent. You have to get extremely lucky to not streak directly through your opponent. And honestly, calling streak a ranged stun is only half of it. It is a ranged stun that puts the target in melee range. No other stun takes you from a safe distance from your target to an unsafe distance.1 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭How are sorcs performing a full follow up combo after a streak. They are facing the wrong direction after the streak ends. And spend an entire global cooldown at best turning back around to target the opponent.
Are you playing with mouse? Because if you are, that is simple task really, don't see your problem.And honestly, calling streak a ranged stun is only half of it. It is a ranged stun that puts the target in melee range. No other stun takes you from a safe distance from your target to an unsafe distance.
Ranged stun that puts you into melee. How is that bad for melee classes? How is it bad for combo finishers?
Lots of other stuns requires you to be melee in the first place. Meaning you not only end up in unsafe distance, you need to walk all the way in to this unsafe distance.1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How are sorcs performing a full follow up combo after a streak. They are facing the wrong direction after the streak ends. And spend an entire global cooldown at best turning back around to target the opponent.
Are you playing with mouse? Because if you are, that is simple task really, don't see your problem.And honestly, calling streak a ranged stun is only half of it. It is a ranged stun that puts the target in melee range. No other stun takes you from a safe distance from your target to an unsafe distance.
Ranged stun that puts you into melee. How is that bad for melee classes? How is it bad for combo finishers?
Lots of other stuns requires you to be melee in the first place. Meaning you not only end up in unsafe distance, you need to walk all the way in to this unsafe distance.
2/3 of the player base, at minimum, cannot play with mouse.
Mag Sorc is not a melee class. Any talk about nerfing Streak cannot be looked at with only Stam Sorc in mind.
All those other stuns that require melee range, literally require melee range to active, as you say. But they do not take you from a safe range into an unsafe range. It's functionally different. And all those classes who have to "walk in" have teleports that locked them onto a target and place them directly in front of and facing the target all of the time.1 -
fbours✭✭✭What class/spec is your main. Even with 8 classes you have one main.
Wrong assumption.This post started as stamsorc streak/vat 2h/crystal wep and their one shot potential - many different factors, not one related to streak.
"not one related to streak" - what a good example of unbiased
Many classes have burst combos. Only one delivers combos with undodgeable and unblockable stun from range with full combo as follow-up. Maybe the follow-up is too strong. But I would be perfectly fine with it if combo itself would be interactable. It is not, because Streak.I would like to understand better your background so I can help you learn how to counter a stamsorc, not a magsorc.
Did I ask for advice?
That is what I thought. You've never played a stamsorc and most likely main a magblade. No you did not ask for advice, but clearly this thread shows you need it. All good. Offer still stands, I can show you how to. Just say it. I am more than happy to show you how to counter a stamsorc, I used to play magblade for quite some time.0 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭all spells have 3 beneficial effects to them. Some have 4 because 1 is a negative.
streak has too many benefits to it. Gap closer, gap maker (this and nightblade shade are the only ones in the game), unavoidable, cc, deals damage. There's 5 benefits instead of 3. You could say 4 because 1 is negative being increased cost,
butFriedEggSandwich wrote: »-Exponential cost, so can't be spammed.
streak is literally spammed in cyrodiil and bgs and everywhere, even in no-cp. Idk what cost is that but it's ignored entirely, especially when you stop for 1-2 seconds to cast a deal and regain all ur mag back.
and, even so, spell is overtuned. It needs to lose something to be in line with others. For example nb shade also has no counter, and is a gap closer and a gap maker, but does not cc you.
Dark Conversion provides 2400 magicka over 20 seconds. No sorc is just regaining the magicka costs for Streak in 1-2 seconds.
Streak costs around 3600 magicka at base. And increases by 33% each cast. Just 3 casts of streak has a cost in the area of 15K. Sorcs are not regaining that with one Dark Conversion. And it takes more than 3 casts of streak to get far enough away from a fight to flee. Especially when they have most likely already expended magicka during the fight they are fleeing from.
[snip] Go into a main campaign in cyro and roam overland around keeps. Sorcs are streaking forever, then have the resources to also come back and nuke you. All this while not dropping health below their hp under shields.
[snip]
Streak costs 3600 magicka and has an increase of 33% per cast? Fact.
3 Streaks in a row cost around 15K magicka? Fact.
Dark Conversion only provides 2400 magicka over a 20 second interval? Fact.
Sorcs are not streaking forever in Cyrodil and shields are not as good as you are making them to be.
[Edited to remove Baiting]
hiding behind numbers as they look on paper and adding "fact" after it does not mean you are right. You have a lot of cost reductions on a magsorc, that cost will not be 3600, if you want to talk numbers. And Dark Conversion will give you over 7k mag in two casts.
how did you reach 15k mag cost in 3 casts ? first 3600 second 3600*0.33=4788 third 4788*0.33=6368. This is under 15k and it will be even lower because cost reductions from class, race, and light armor. Also it's not raw 15k because you will get 7k between each streak. Streaking 4 times in a row, casting dark deal 2-3 times in total during them, will leave you full magicka, far away from any danger, and ready to strike back, while the enemy already spent half his mag/stam to use gap closers on you.
and for argument about shields read comment #36-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭all spells have 3 beneficial effects to them. Some have 4 because 1 is a negative.
streak has too many benefits to it. Gap closer, gap maker (this and nightblade shade are the only ones in the game), unavoidable, cc, deals damage. There's 5 benefits instead of 3. You could say 4 because 1 is negative being increased cost,
butFriedEggSandwich wrote: »-Exponential cost, so can't be spammed.
streak is literally spammed in cyrodiil and bgs and everywhere, even in no-cp. Idk what cost is that but it's ignored entirely, especially when you stop for 1-2 seconds to cast a deal and regain all ur mag back.
and, even so, spell is overtuned. It needs to lose something to be in line with others. For example nb shade also has no counter, and is a gap closer and a gap maker, but does not cc you.
Dark Conversion provides 2400 magicka over 20 seconds. No sorc is just regaining the magicka costs for Streak in 1-2 seconds.
Streak costs around 3600 magicka at base. And increases by 33% each cast. Just 3 casts of streak has a cost in the area of 15K. Sorcs are not regaining that with one Dark Conversion. And it takes more than 3 casts of streak to get far enough away from a fight to flee. Especially when they have most likely already expended magicka during the fight they are fleeing from.
[snip] Go into a main campaign in cyro and roam overland around keeps. Sorcs are streaking forever, then have the resources to also come back and nuke you. All this while not dropping health below their hp under shields.
[snip]
Streak costs 3600 magicka and has an increase of 33% per cast? Fact.
3 Streaks in a row cost around 15K magicka? Fact.
Dark Conversion only provides 2400 magicka over a 20 second interval? Fact.
Sorcs are not streaking forever in Cyrodil and shields are not as good as you are making them to be.
[Edited to remove Baiting]
hiding behind numbers as they look on paper and adding "fact" after it does not mean you are right. You have a lot of cost reductions on a magsorc, that cost will not be 3600, if you want to talk numbers. And Dark Conversion will give you over 7k mag in two casts.
how did you reach 15k mag cost in 3 casts ? first 3600 second 3600*0.33=4788 third 4788*0.33=6368. This is under 15k and it will be even lower because cost reductions from class, race, and light armor. Also it's not raw 15k because you will get 7k between each streak. Streaking 4 times in a row, casting dark deal 2-3 times in total during them, will leave you full magicka, far away from any danger, and ready to strike back, while the enemy already spent half his mag/stam to use gap closers on you.
and for argument about shields read comment #36
I said "around 15K" and when you add those 3 numbers together you get 14,756... so no, I was not mistaken. That is around 15K. Even taking cost reductions into account, we are talking a 6% reduction from Sorc passives. 6% still leaves your cost at 13,870, which is still around 15K, and still costly.
And then you've also added that you can cast it 4 times in a row, which is another 8K mag, so you are looking at a cost of 20K at minimum mag cost to streak 4 times in a row. And the assumption is you are running away after a fight, so chances are you don't even have 20K mag to spend on streaking 4 times away. And there is zero chance that you are full magicka after doing so, even after cast Dark Conversion 2-3 times, without some sort of Gear Set Proc, which is not currently a thing in Cyrodil. And then somehow after this, you are running back into the group that is chasing you to take them out. The same group you just had to run away from because you already couldn't take them out on your superior OP class that requires running away from a fight to win somehow.
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