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PvP health needs to be capped at 30k immediately

Fawn4287
Fawn4287
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The health pools in cyrodil and especially in the IC are are just ridiculous at this point, seeing groups of wwolves with 40-50 k health alongside 60k+ health harbinger tanks makes me question why you would bother playing anything else? The fact you can still very easily hit 5k+ weapon damage on just about any stam build is absurd. Proc sets, health based heals and malacath is just turning this game into a giant stalemate. The fast paced gameplay that attracted do many to this game has been eroded and devolved in to slow boring garbage as essentially everyone has just realised “if I play a tank that can still kill people whilst outnumbering and not die in a 1 or 2 v1 I’m happy”.

For too long ZOS has been catering to people who refuse to improve and it has blown out to the obscene levels it is at now. I find the people I find with and myself barely playing as this meta is just unbearable watching players who were previously instantly dead now just tank, survive and wait for for the rest of their group to turn and outnumber kill you with an onslaught of light attacks, proc sets, dots and glyph damage, virtually none of which scales with their total lack of damage and their 40k health pool. Has it ever occurred to ZOS that the performance issues might actually be attributed to the fact groups run around with nearly 40k health stacking 150 HOTs? Can the tanks massive health pools and non scaling damage cheese, force everyone to play more glassy builds and see if performance improves as fights that currently last 5 minutes are over in seconds.
  • West93
    West93
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    Health based healing and malacath band with procsets should be removed.
  • Zeromaz
    Zeromaz
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    I feel your pain. Such a stagnant setup. Its all too common for these types of players to stall till they get their ultimate so they can “burst combo” someone. Its a shameful playstyle but ... if thats what people want to do, who am i to say they shouldn’t?
  • the1andonlyskwex
    the1andonlyskwex
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    I don't particularly care about malacath or proc sets, but health-based healing is a problem for both PvE and PvP. In PvE it seriously devalues healers because it allows tanks to heal themselves, and in PvP it creates the tank meta because one stat provides both burst resistance and sustain.
    Edited by the1andonlyskwex on October 27, 2020 3:22AM
  • Solariken
    Solariken
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    Health pools are not the problem. Health-based heals are the problem.
  • mikey_reach
    mikey_reach
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    Lets focus on performance first a big part of why you see that is because of performance. If the pvp worked fine im sure you would see more glass cannons or build where you need to react. Because the game runs like a toaster that is on fire a lot of people run builds higher hp because they can react or their skills wont work. I feel like and this is just my guess but i feel like part of the reason proc sets are op again whether malacath is involved or not is to make up for the lack of skills firing off. And also hp based heals like mentioned before are pretty op so that is another reason, on a sorc i can easily get 3.5k-5k ticks without brp resto when im low enough as long as my shield doesnt get hit but that is why sorc stack shields. On a warden its a no brainer that clever is a really good set for the class because it has 2 lines of hp. And on ww well even my non crit heals do like 10k with only 30k hp. If i had the choice i would fix pvp first and then worry about hp. In the first 2-3 years or so when the performance wasnt as bad believe it or not naked nord builds were a thing for a bit believe it or not.
    Edited by mikey_reach on October 27, 2020 4:05AM
  • Attackopsn
    Attackopsn
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    The worst part is their are so many healthy homogenizations imo since wrobel era that if health based gameplay and proc sets or werewolf weren't a thing the current meta's fotm complaint would only be noobs whining about being killed somewhat instantly, which isn't a bad thing, they are just terrible
    ign: ATTACKO
    PS4 NA
    First NA Completion of VMoL Hard Mode


  • Recapitated
    Recapitated
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    Lets focus on performance first a big part of why you see that is because of performance.

    BGs don't have Cyro's lag problems, and yet the meta is not really that different.
  • Recapitated
    Recapitated
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    Leave health alone, give health-based heals their own Battle Spirit coefficient. Regular heals 55%, health-based 40% -- 20% less than their current level.
  • idk
    idk
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    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    [Quoted post was removed]

    [Quoted post was removed]

    So the issue being presented in this thread is not the max health but the effectiveness of proc sets when the player has hight health?

    So this really has nothing to do with how high we can get our health then. An artificial cap on max health makes no sense when no other resource has such an artificial cap.
    Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on October 27, 2020 10:04AM
  • mikey_reach
    mikey_reach
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    Lets focus on performance first a big part of why you see that is because of performance.

    BGs don't have Cyro's lag problems, and yet the meta is not really that different.
    True but it is still a big factor nonetheless. And many people sure the same build from cyro for bgs the majority of players that play bgs dont even care for high skilled based match making.
  • Recapitated
    Recapitated
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    @idk I was asking the same thing about WWs specifically, here's what I got: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6998274/#Comment_6998274

    I don't think it's a bad idea to add wrinkles to battle spirit just because it's unprecedented. Scaling (including diminishing returns) > caps though
  • ImSoPro
    ImSoPro
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    Shouldn’t be hard capping any resources. I also don’t think ZOS is “catering to people who refuse to improve” every meta is just the response to how ZOS changes the game each patch and people adapt. Each patch there is a different way to push the boundaries I think that’s just the way it will remain. This is just a *** patch and that’s it. These builds won’t exist next year.
  • wsmith97ub17_ESO
    wsmith97ub17_ESO
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    If they want to tank vet dungeons fine, but in pvp give them a 1k percent debuff on all damage source when over certain mitigations or over 30k hp. So if proc sets raise those stats, dps drops to almost nothing. Enjoy tanking.
    It is the mind, that is the mind, confusing the mind. Do not leave the mind, oh mind, to the mind.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    ImSoPro wrote: »
    Shouldn’t be hard capping any resources. I also don’t think ZOS is “catering to people who refuse to improve” every meta is just the response to how ZOS changes the game each patch and people adapt. Each patch there is a different way to push the boundaries I think that’s just the way it will remain. This is just a *** patch and that’s it. These builds won’t exist next year.

    You're quite the optimist.

    Where exactly do you see these builds going?

    What has ZoS done since 2015 every patch: nerf our abilities, classes, passives.

    What else has ZoS done since that time: increased the potency of proc sets.

    Builds that just stack health and rely on their gear to do damage - which their small power and attribute pools are of zero consequence will be stronger next year.

    Or am I supposed to believe that after 5+ years and two entirely different combat teams that the next patch will suddenly reverse 20 updates?
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    Lets focus on performance first a big part of why you see that is because of performance. If the pvp worked fine im sure you would see more glass cannons or build where you need to react. Because the game runs like a toaster that is on fire a lot of people run builds higher hp because they can react or their skills wont work. I feel like and this is just my guess but i feel like part of the reason proc sets are op again whether malacath is involved or not is to make up for the lack of skills firing off. And also hp based heals like mentioned before are pretty op so that is another reason, on a sorc i can easily get 3.5k-5k ticks without brp resto when im low enough as long as my shield doesnt get hit but that is why sorc stack shields. On a warden its a no brainer that clever is a really good set for the class because it has 2 lines of hp. And on ww well even my non crit heals do like 10k with only 30k hp. If i had the choice i would fix pvp first and then worry about hp. In the first 2-3 years or so when the performance wasnt as bad believe it or not naked nord builds were a thing for a bit believe it or not.

    Hahaha, no.

    People run high health based setups, beacuse they can. I can run 45k hp (in no cp) on a stamden and procsets will do all the damage for me.
    And this is in battlegrounds where lag isnt as much of a problem.
    If anything people run these high hp setup to survive the otherwise very high damage meta we have.
    It just turns out that offensive stats are pointless in no cp right now.
    My 2k wpd stamden puts out more dmg with procs than someone rocking 6k wpd max stat build.
    So yeah..
    Edited by Firstmep on October 27, 2020 8:06AM
  • Joinovikova
    Joinovikova
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    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    The health pools in cyrodil and especially in the IC are are just ridiculous at this point, seeing groups of wwolves with 40-50 k health alongside 60k+ health harbinger tanks makes me question why you would bother playing anything else? The fact you can still very easily hit 5k+ weapon damage on just about any stam build is absurd. Proc sets, health based heals and malacath is just turning this game into a giant stalemate. The fast paced gameplay that attracted do many to this game has been eroded and devolved in to slow boring garbage as essentially everyone has just realised “if I play a tank that can still kill people whilst outnumbering and not die in a 1 or 2 v1 I’m happy”.

    For too long ZOS has been catering to people who refuse to improve and it has blown out to the obscene levels it is at now. I find the people I find with and myself barely playing as this meta is just unbearable watching players who were previously instantly dead now just tank, survive and wait for for the rest of their group to turn and outnumber kill you with an onslaught of light attacks, proc sets, dots and glyph damage, virtually none of which scales with their total lack of damage and their 40k health pool. Has it ever occurred to ZOS that the performance issues might actually be attributed to the fact groups run around with nearly 40k health stacking 150 HOTs? Can the tanks massive health pools and non scaling damage cheese, force everyone to play more glassy builds and see if performance improves as fights that currently last 5 minutes are over in seconds.

    only healh scaling heals need to be adressed :)
  • ZOS_ConnorG
    Greetings all,

    After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

    You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.
    Staff Post
  • Noctus
    Noctus
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    100 % agree with every *** thing u said
  • LightYagami
    LightYagami
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    I met a 80k health necro tank when his ulti kicked in.
    A large group ran into him and it took quite some time to finish him even with the large group...
    No improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.
  • mikey_reach
    mikey_reach
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    Lets focus on performance first a big part of why you see that is because of performance. If the pvp worked fine im sure you would see more glass cannons or build where you need to react. Because the game runs like a toaster that is on fire a lot of people run builds higher hp because they can react or their skills wont work. I feel like and this is just my guess but i feel like part of the reason proc sets are op again whether malacath is involved or not is to make up for the lack of skills firing off. And also hp based heals like mentioned before are pretty op so that is another reason, on a sorc i can easily get 3.5k-5k ticks without brp resto when im low enough as long as my shield doesnt get hit but that is why sorc stack shields. On a warden its a no brainer that clever is a really good set for the class because it has 2 lines of hp. And on ww well even my non crit heals do like 10k with only 30k hp. If i had the choice i would fix pvp first and then worry about hp. In the first 2-3 years or so when the performance wasnt as bad believe it or not naked nord builds were a thing for a bit believe it or not.

    Hahaha, no.

    People run high health based setups, beacuse they can. I can run 45k hp (in no cp) on a stamden and procsets will do all the damage for me.
    And this is in battlegrounds where lag isnt as much of a problem.
    If anything people run these high hp setup to survive the otherwise very high damage meta we have.
    It just turns out that offensive stats are pointless in no cp right now.
    My 2k wpd stamden puts out more dmg with procs than someone rocking 6k wpd max stat build.
    So yeah..

    Yeah yeah because they can anyone can with anything but to deny that it isnt a factor is being indenial.
  • Dorkener
    Dorkener
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    It's just too binary atm. In group A you have the builds complained about in this thread (35k+ HP, crimson, malacath + insert flavor of cheese, mostly reserved for classes with HP based heals). In group B you have peeps running 3 damage proccsets deleting each other (and everyone else who's not part of group A) with almost zero input, then streaking and cloaking off to Xv1 some other "potato". Everything in between is mediocre at best (either in efficiency or effort required).
  • Grimlok_S
    Grimlok_S
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    Looks like Oblivion damage is back on the menu boys!
    Light Attack Hero

    Class context
    Stamplar
    StamDK
    Stamsorc
    MagDK
    StamMAGStamden
    Magplar
    Stam NB
    Bomb NB
  • idk
    idk
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    @idk I was asking the same thing about WWs specifically, here's what I got: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6998274/#Comment_6998274

    I don't think it's a bad idea to add wrinkles to battle spirit just because it's unprecedented. Scaling (including diminishing returns) > caps though

    I said nothing about this being unprecedented because it is not. It would seem that OP does not stack health. This means they stack other resources but here they only want to cap health which would make some PvP players build weaker while not harming theirs.
  • Fawn4287
    Fawn4287
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    I met a 80k health necro tank when his ulti kicked in.
    A large group ran into him and it took quite some time to finish him even with the large group...

    I see them hit ~103k health with Goliath up
  • Fawn4287
    Fawn4287
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    Grimlok_S wrote: »
    Looks like Oblivion damage is back on the menu boys!
    Wouldn’t do much to wwolves with 5k+ health recov with and crimson delivering them a 4k burst heal per target hit
  • ImSoPro
    ImSoPro
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    ImSoPro wrote: »
    Shouldn’t be hard capping any resources. I also don’t think ZOS is “catering to people who refuse to improve” every meta is just the response to how ZOS changes the game each patch and people adapt. Each patch there is a different way to push the boundaries I think that’s just the way it will remain. This is just a *** patch and that’s it. These builds won’t exist next year.

    You're quite the optimist.

    Where exactly do you see these builds going?

    What has ZoS done since 2015 every patch: nerf our abilities, classes, passives.

    What else has ZoS done since that time: increased the potency of proc sets.

    Builds that just stack health and rely on their gear to do damage - which their small power and attribute pools are of zero consequence will be stronger next year.

    Or am I supposed to believe that after 5+ years and two entirely different combat teams that the next patch will suddenly reverse 20 updates?

    Lets not act like proc sets have done nothing but get buffed. Lets also not act like classes have done nothing but get nerfed. Sets get nerfed and buffed every patch. Sloads meta says hello. Rarity these days why? Because it was a proc set that got nerfed. Just a few patches ago DOTs were out of control and then brought back down to earth.

    Every patch, players just respond to ZOS’ changes and no I do not think in a year that proc sets will be the meta. Proc sets have always been around and they had their time in the past and now they are on top again but don’t forget how long they WEREN’T on top. Proc sets just became an issue on this forum within the last few months.

    Do you guys honestly expect people not to adapt and take advantage of changes ZOS makes each patch? I’m just taking this stance now because people are under the impression that ZOS caters to a certain group as if the devs actively participate in these forums or something. All we as players can do is roll with the changes until the next patch or more likely the patch after when proc sets are brought down to earth once more.
  • nqvarihs
    nqvarihs
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    itt: tanks that don't want to admit they're carried by their 35k+ hp and blame it on the "hEaLtH bAsEd HeAlS aRe OvErTuNeD". pretty sure yall cant name any other than arctic blast and dark cloak (dark cloak very broken omg :o)

    arctic blast heals for 26% of ur total hp, ~10.4% after battle spirit. that's a 3120 tooltip with 30k hp

    https://imgur.com/a/vrazfMQ cp ic with 43 in both blessed and quick recovery :smile:

    the list of heals and shields that scale with max health. how many of these are actually complained about?
    shields

    ferocious leap: 1.03
    hardened armor: 0.155
    fragmented shield: 0.086
    igneous shield: 0.086
    radiant ward: 0.3
    blazing shield: 0.3
    bone surge: 0.32
    bone shield: 0.31


    heals

    blood magic: 0.10 (sorc passive)
    killer's blade: 0.21
    piercing mark: 0.31
    reaper's mark: 0.64
    dark cloak: 0.06
    polar wind: 0.27, 0.03, 0.27
    arctic blast: 0.26, 0.03
    pummeling goliath: 0.02, 0.05
    ravenous goliath: 0.02, 0.05, 0.05
    ruinous scythe: 0.15, 0.05
    hungry scythe: 0.15, 0.05, 0.02
    deaden pain: 0.04
    necrotic potency: 0.04
    consuming trap: 0.20
    hircine's fortitude: 0.5
    hircine's rage: 0.39
  • Draevik
    Draevik
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    Health isn't the issue. It is the availability of Malacath with procs. Malacath alone is like having Major Berserk up all the time.

    Since most people run with minimum 30% crit mit especially in no CP. With base crit modifier of 1.5 Malacath already does 5% more damage 100% of the time. This also allows you to build for pure Wd/Sd or stats without worrying about crit rate.

    However, people are also building tanky moreso as a byproduct of high damage proc builds and to survive a Nightblades INSANE burst. The funny thing is then the NB will just cloak and run away if the person survives. So whats more cheesy people killing themselves from lack of awareness (Thews) or deleting people instantly?
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    nqvarihs wrote: »
    itt: tanks that don't want to admit they're carried by their 35k+ hp and blame it on the "hEaLtH bAsEd HeAlS aRe OvErTuNeD". pretty sure yall cant name any other than arctic blast and dark cloak (dark cloak very broken omg :o)

    arctic blast heals for 26% of ur total hp, ~10.4% after battle spirit. that's a 3120 tooltip with 30k hp

    https://imgur.com/a/vrazfMQ cp ic with 43 in both blessed and quick recovery :smile:

    the list of heals and shields that scale with max health. how many of these are actually complained about?
    shields

    ferocious leap: 1.03
    hardened armor: 0.155
    fragmented shield: 0.086
    igneous shield: 0.086
    radiant ward: 0.3
    blazing shield: 0.3
    bone surge: 0.32
    bone shield: 0.31


    heals

    blood magic: 0.10 (sorc passive)
    killer's blade: 0.21
    piercing mark: 0.31
    reaper's mark: 0.64
    dark cloak: 0.06
    polar wind: 0.27, 0.03, 0.27
    arctic blast: 0.26, 0.03
    pummeling goliath: 0.02, 0.05
    ravenous goliath: 0.02, 0.05, 0.05
    ruinous scythe: 0.15, 0.05
    hungry scythe: 0.15, 0.05, 0.02
    deaden pain: 0.04
    necrotic potency: 0.04
    consuming trap: 0.20
    hircine's fortitude: 0.5
    hircine's rage: 0.39

    Defensive Posture (you didnt list btw), Bone Shield, Clannfear (you missed him too), Artic wind, Dark Cloak, are all used frequently.

    My health sorc hits 10k+ heals on Clannfear alone
    Edit: in no CP... With CP omg
    Edited by Waffennacht on October 27, 2020 5:54PM
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    ImSoPro wrote: »
    ImSoPro wrote: »
    Shouldn’t be hard capping any resources. I also don’t think ZOS is “catering to people who refuse to improve” every meta is just the response to how ZOS changes the game each patch and people adapt. Each patch there is a different way to push the boundaries I think that’s just the way it will remain. This is just a *** patch and that’s it. These builds won’t exist next year.

    You're quite the optimist.

    Where exactly do you see these builds going?

    What has ZoS done since 2015 every patch: nerf our abilities, classes, passives.

    What else has ZoS done since that time: increased the potency of proc sets.

    Builds that just stack health and rely on their gear to do damage - which their small power and attribute pools are of zero consequence will be stronger next year.

    Or am I supposed to believe that after 5+ years and two entirely different combat teams that the next patch will suddenly reverse 20 updates?

    Lets not act like proc sets have done nothing but get buffed. Lets also not act like classes have done nothing but get nerfed. Sets get nerfed and buffed every patch. Sloads meta says hello. Rarity these days why? Because it was a proc set that got nerfed. Just a few patches ago DOTs were out of control and then brought back down to earth.

    Every patch, players just respond to ZOS’ changes and no I do not think in a year that proc sets will be the meta. Proc sets have always been around and they had their time in the past and now they are on top again but don’t forget how long they WEREN’T on top. Proc sets just became an issue on this forum within the last few months.

    Do you guys honestly expect people not to adapt and take advantage of changes ZOS makes each patch? I’m just taking this stance now because people are under the impression that ZOS caters to a certain group as if the devs actively participate in these forums or something. All we as players can do is roll with the changes until the next patch or more likely the patch after when proc sets are brought down to earth once more.


    For every proc set like Sload's that gets nerfed; ZOS introduces stronger sets like Venomous smite or buffs older ones like Sheer Venom or leaves the strong ones alone like Caalurion. Class abilities and passives have been nerfed noticeably since 2016. On my templar, there is maybe - maybe - a grand total of two skills that are better now: Rune Focus and Crescent Sweep - and it's a stretch to even say that since the former is just more convenient to use and the latter was always available as a stamina version. Then take into account the periodic nerfs to certain champion point trees or their outright removal in battelgrounds or no CP PvP and ZOS's increasingly strong sets to sell DLC and the end result is that what our characters can do independent of gear sets has relatively and steadily decreased and that trend will continue indefinitely until ZOS does a fundamental reboot of the game, which it has given no indications that it plans on doing that.

    Proc sets have never went away and have never not been a strong option. Overwhelming, Caalurions, Valkyn, Grothdar etc., have always been strong if not BiS, at least for melee magic spec that did not have access to broken bleeds (amped by Master's weapons) and more broken stam sets like 7th Legion or Fury, which are just a different type of proc sets. Metas are dominated by what gear sets ZOS has released and buffed. This wasn't the case at launch when it was an actual class - DK - defined the meta.

    Of course we expect people to adapt to ZOS's changes. What is frustrating is that "adaption" merely consists of doing an hour of PvE to get the latest OP gear set, slotting a single weapon skill (poison injection), and proceed to do over 1 million damage in a Battleground by never willingly moving within 40 meters of any opponent. Three times in the past four years proc sets have gone from merely already strong to outright broken. That's not a ZOS "oops" or balance miscalculation, but the logical consequence of nerfing classes and enticing people to buy DLC by selling powerful gear.
    Edited by Joy_Division on October 27, 2020 5:56PM
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