PvP health needs to be capped at 30k immediately

nqvarihs

Waffennacht wrote: »

nqvarihs wrote: »

itt: tanks that don't want to admit they're carried by their 35k+ hp and blame it on the "hEaLtH bAsEd HeAlS aRe OvErTuNeD". pretty sure yall cant name any other than arctic blast and dark cloak (dark cloak very broken omg )

arctic blast heals for 26% of ur total hp, ~10.4% after battle spirit. that's a 3120 tooltip with 30k hp

https://imgur.com/a/vrazfMQ cp ic with 43 in both blessed and quick recovery

the list of heals and shields that scale with max health. how many of these are actually complained about?

shields

ferocious leap: 1.03
hardened armor: 0.155
fragmented shield: 0.086
igneous shield: 0.086
radiant ward: 0.3
blazing shield: 0.3
bone surge: 0.32
bone shield: 0.31


heals

blood magic: 0.10 (sorc passive)
killer's blade: 0.21
piercing mark: 0.31
reaper's mark: 0.64
dark cloak: 0.06
polar wind: 0.27, 0.03, 0.27
arctic blast: 0.26, 0.03
pummeling goliath: 0.02, 0.05
ravenous goliath: 0.02, 0.05, 0.05
ruinous scythe: 0.15, 0.05
hungry scythe: 0.15, 0.05, 0.02
deaden pain: 0.04
necrotic potency: 0.04
consuming trap: 0.20
hircine's fortitude: 0.5
hircine's rage: 0.39

Defensive Posture (you didnt list btw), Bone Shield, Clannfear (you missed him too), Artic wind, Dark Cloak, are all used frequently.

My health sorc hits 10k+ heals on Clannfear alone
Edit: in no CP... With CP omg

and thats 2 more that nobody complains about 👍

olsborg

What @Joy_Division just said. Nailed it.

Recapitated

Draevik wrote: »

Health isn't the issue. It is the availability of Malacath with procs. Malacath alone is like having Major Berserk up all the time.

Since most people run with minimum 30% crit mit especially in no CP. With base crit modifier of 1.5 Malacath already does 5% more damage 100% of the time. This also allows you to build for pure Wd/Sd or stats without worrying about crit rate.

It's not any one piece. The only one that is bad in isolation is proc sets.

Health-based heals alone: you can ignore anybody who tries to build for max health cause they have no damage.
Malacath alone you'd have a max stat meta with heavy use of Clever, NMA, 7th etc. especially those that you can single-bar.
Procs alone we'd have a venomous smite/syvarra cloakblade/stamsorc meta.

Procs + HBH: we'd have the venomous smite/syvarra cloakblade/stamsorc meta plus some more tankiness I guess.
Procs + malacath: same story but worse
Malacath + HBH: you can still pack a punch on werewolves without procs.

And then all three is what we have right now.

Urzigurumash

What should health-based heals scale off of then? If they had a flat value that would meet needs for PvE tanks they would be more OP in PvP.

Am I wrong to think that one of the major reasons for the escalation of health in PvP is Gold Food? I know Clockwork has been out for ~3 years now, but not many people ran Bear Haunch when it was the only one. Granted Clockwork and Broth have the same health as Witchmother's / Dubious now, but it seems like almost everybody runs Sugar Skulls, myself included of course.

Recapitated

Urzigurumash wrote: »

What should health-based heals scale off of then? If it's a flat value that would meet needs for PvE tanks it would be OP in PvP.

Separate Battle Spirit coefficients for health-based and offense-based heals. Vigor should still be 55%, Clannfear or whatever should be less. Try 40% for size.

Same treatment for damage shields if it turns out Spiked Bone Shield, Defensive Posture or whatever winds up creating the same problem

Urzigurumash

Recapitated wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

What should health-based heals scale off of then? If it's a flat value that would meet needs for PvE tanks it would be OP in PvP.

Separate Battle Spirit coefficients for health-based and offense-based heals. Vigor should still be 55%, Clannfear or whatever should be less. Try 40% for size.

Same treatment for damage shields if it turns out Spiked Bone Shield, Defensive Posture or whatever winds up creating the same problem

Well that would all be horrible for StamDK, in lieu of any other changes, between Fragmented Shield and Green Dragon Blood.

the1andonlyskwex

Urzigurumash wrote: »

What should health-based heals scale off of then? If they had a flat value that would meet needs for PvE tanks they would be more OP in PvP.

PvE tanks should be healed by PvE healers. They don't need self heals. All of the health-based heals should be completely reworked into different types of abilities (e.g. there are 4 classes that could use a pull, the game could use more damage redirect abilities like Guard, short-term mitigation buffs, etc.).

Recapitated

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

What should health-based heals scale off of then? If it's a flat value that would meet needs for PvE tanks it would be OP in PvP.

Separate Battle Spirit coefficients for health-based and offense-based heals. Vigor should still be 55%, Clannfear or whatever should be less. Try 40% for size.

Same treatment for damage shields if it turns out Spiked Bone Shield, Defensive Posture or whatever winds up creating the same problem

Well that would all be horrible for StamDK, in lieu of any other changes, between Fragmented Shield and Green Dragon Blood.

I thought a) the frag shield tooltip was an afterthought after Battle Spirit already, just a way to proc Minor Brutality and Major Mending b) GDB hasn't been the heal of choice for DD sDK for a while now vs Cauterize.

But either way, when you have a change that affects all classes you're going to need to adjust classes to those changes in return. It's the same with flat damage proc sets, they're inherently problematic but they're also the only reason why some specs are viable. Those specs need work.

Urzigurumash

Yeah I guess my point is don't crush No CP builds that run in the 25k - 30k range to address 40k+ builds in CP

Urzigurumash

As for Frag Shield + GDB, then there you go, these skills do not need a nerf.

Recapitated

Urzigurumash wrote: »

As for Frag Shield + GDB, then there you go, these skills do not need a nerf.

Would you be happy if the changes to Battle Spirit that I suggested were coupled with making GDB scale off offensive stats or max health, whichever is highest after Battle Spirit? IMO frag shield's tooltip doesn't need to be bigger because it's not the reason why you activate it anyway. But it wouldn't hurt to get more out of it since Major Mending is getting nerfed, health recovery or mitigation or healing or something.

Like I play one, I agree that stamdk needs something regardless of my suggested changes. So just deal with the two problems separately, and if you can't then do one after the other -- it's not like this meta is putting us very high on the totem pole anyway.

You've agreed elsewhere that proc sets need some kind of adjustment, and I imagine you're aware some specs rely on them to be viable right now. Do you think we should hold off on those adjustments until stamsorc and magcro are usable without crutching on procs? At that rate we'd still be working our way out of this in 2022.

Goregrinder

LightYagami wrote: »

I met a 80k health necro tank when his ulti kicked in.
A large group ran into him and it took quite some time to finish him even with the large group...

Only 80k? I have around 110k on my necro when I pop my ulti.

Urzigurumash

Recapitated wrote: »

Do you think we should hold off on those adjustments until stamsorc and magcro are usable without crutching on procs? At that rate we'd still be working our way out of this in 2022.

I think those classes should be able to get more damage out of proc sets. I don't want proc sets to be adjusted so they're weaker on all specs, I want them to be adjusted so there is no limit on their potential. More scaling, less limits, of everything. More fantasy, less reality.

Sure about GDB and offensive stats though. I think having a magicka burst heal to complement Vigor on any Stam build is really handy, but the ones scaled off Mag / Spell Damage are obviously useless.

rogenep360

I think cloak+shadow is a carry too, it allows nightblades to go full damage without worrying about defense, I have a nightblade myself and eventhough I have almost no experience with him I can do a lot more damage than with my stamdk and survive easier and Im a total potato with him. I think the only real counter r detect pots but those r really expensive, is like telling a nightblade to change their prefered pots so they can counter X class

Recapitated

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

Do you think we should hold off on those adjustments until stamsorc and magcro are usable without crutching on procs? At that rate we'd still be working our way out of this in 2022.

I think those classes should be able to get more damage out of proc sets. I don't want proc sets to be adjusted so they're weaker on all specs, I want them to be adjusted so there is no limit on their potential. More scaling, less limits, of everything. More fantasy, less reality.

Sure about GDB and offensive stats though. I think having a magicka burst heal to complement Vigor on any Stam build is really handy, but the ones scaled off Mag / Spell Damage are obviously useless.

Cool. Cauterize scales off your highest offensive stats, might still be worth buffing.

Urzigurumash

Right, so does Flames of Oblivion. A nerf is a nerf, just nerfing Health-scaled skills in PvP is a nerf to StamDK. I'm speaking strictly from a BGs perspective. Long TTK is not an issue there. That was my only real point here. The skills themselves aren't imbalanced in BGs, I don't think.

Wolfpaw

1. Remove healing scaled up by max health
2. Remove healing scaled up by WD & SD
3. Separate Damage Crit & Healing Crit
4. Diminishing returns for heal scaling up through stat stacking.
5. Increase skill applied DOT damage (not passive or poison).
6. Taunt in pvp reduces targets damage by X for X seconds, only one player can be taunted at a time.
7. Increase Battle Spirit healing by X.
8. Reduce damage by X if shield &/or Resto Staff is equiped.

I can do everything (tank, heal, damage, control) bs is the reason we're here, bring back the trinity.

My 2c

Hexquisite

I am hoping that the 35K+ tanks we are seeeing, are a result of the tests with shared global cooldowns, as well as ramping costs. It is a proc meta, and unless you have Vigor, chances are you can't heal yourself/purge the dots/siege--and DPS fast enough.

I know small scalers who have played at 25Kish health in CP for years, now rocking at 40k

Recapitated

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I can do everything (tank, heal, damage, control) bs is the reason we're here, bring back the trinity.

My 2c

If DDs can't heal in PVP doesn't that essentially mean they need a pocket healer at all times? Seems fine to me that DDs have defensive/healing potential as long as they're not straight-up burst-proof.

Wolfpaw

Recapitated wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I can do everything (tank, heal, damage, control) bs is the reason we're here, bring back the trinity.

My 2c

If DDs can't heal in PVP doesn't that essentially mean they need a pocket healer at all times? Seems fine to me that DDs have defensive/healing potential as long as they're not straight-up burst-proof.

All roles would benefit by playing with other roles outside of their own.

DD would be able to heal themselves, they just may need to los heal, body shield, dodge, reflect, disengage, 1st strike advantage, etc...since the heal would be far less potent.

To "get by" is the concept of a dd heal, not a pocket healer within one to two heal skills.

Recapitated

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I can do everything (tank, heal, damage, control) bs is the reason we're here, bring back the trinity.

My 2c

If DDs can't heal in PVP doesn't that essentially mean they need a pocket healer at all times? Seems fine to me that DDs have defensive/healing potential as long as they're not straight-up burst-proof.

All roles would benefit by playing with other roles outside of their own.

DD would be able to heal themselves, they just may need to los heal, body shield, dodge, reflect, disengage, 1st strike advantage, etc...since the heal would be far less potent.

I don't want to say that sounds like the status quo, but it does sound like previous patches especially in no CP. Most people had healing potential but they weren't really burst-proof.

Katahdin

Fawn4287 wrote: »

LightYagami wrote: »

I met a 80k health necro tank when his ulti kicked in.
A large group ran into him and it took quite some time to finish him even with the large group...

I see them hit ~103k health with Goliath up

Then put harbinger on them and you cant hit them or you will kill yourself with the 6% damage it reflects back at you.
If you have a build that does direct damage, youre dead


We had one that pretty much single handedly stop 6 of us from seiging a keep.
They just hit their ulti and none of us could do any damage and he/she just burnt our seige.
Armor should not allow someone to do that.

.

Xarc

I have to admit.

It was the deal. We had to choose, beeing powerfull or beeing strong. There's still some people very strong AND powerfull.
At this point, zenimax failed.

dcmgti

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

What should health-based heals scale off of then? If they had a flat value that would meet needs for PvE tanks they would be more OP in PvP.

PvE tanks should be healed by PvE healers. They don't need self heals. All of the health-based heals should be completely reworked into different types of abilities (e.g. there are 4 classes that could use a pull, the game could use more damage redirect abilities like Guard, short-term mitigation buffs, etc.).

So because of max health scaled healing in pvp, my warden and DK pve tanks should suffer at the hands of some probable fake healer in a pug vet DLC group? Or when I'm in the portal in vCR I should rely on my healer.....that isn't in the portal? That doesn't seem very fair at all. In fact I would probably never tank again. To say a tank doesn't need self heals is laughable.

There's a reason so few people tank on templar, its because of no heal that scales off max heatlh. There's obviously other reasons but that is one of the main ones. Necro technically doesn't have one either but they have a passive that comes close if you have a skill from a certain tree slotted, plus they have tons of damage mitigation.