I think they are really annoying and have potential to be extremely deadly but for something that starts to lose class passives and is a one bar is pretty well balanced and has good options for everyone of it's morphs, I feel like vampire should have gotten some kinda change to put them at this level

Agreed. Cheesefest EZ mode.

Ashtaris wrote: »

erio wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

If werewolves are so powerful then why isn't everyone running around as Werewolves. Most people who struggle against doggos are usually glass cannons with no healing output, doggos lack damage output to kill any good player and are usually seen as free AP because they're not very good in almost any situation. The only time I'd be concerned about doggos is if there's a large pack of doggos which is somewhat never seen these days.

If stamcros are so op why isnt everyone playing them? Thats not very good logic man.
And like all classes, theres good and bad players. Bad wws are free ap. A good ww in a good build is pretty much unkillable most of the time

And you can say that for just about every class or race. Someone who knows how to put together a good build, has their rotation down to a science, and knows the art of combat will be almost unkillable no matter what. WW is no different.

WW is most definitely different. Nerfing defile was absolutely a step in the right direction, for multiple reasons, but the WW self heal is still quite ridiculous. The amount of per-GCD healing needs to come down pretty substantially. If that means that the cost gets changed, or something else is improved to compensate - fine. But the current iteration of that heal is just silly.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

erio wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

If werewolves are so powerful then why isn't everyone running around as Werewolves. Most people who struggle against doggos are usually glass cannons with no healing output, doggos lack damage output to kill any good player and are usually seen as free AP because they're not very good in almost any situation. The only time I'd be concerned about doggos is if there's a large pack of doggos which is somewhat never seen these days.

If stamcros are so op why isnt everyone playing them? Thats not very good logic man.
And like all classes, theres good and bad players. Bad wws are free ap. A good ww in a good build is pretty much unkillable most of the time

And you can say that for just about every class or race. Someone who knows how to put together a good build, has their rotation down to a science, and knows the art of combat will be almost unkillable no matter what. WW is no different.

WW is most definitely different. Nerfing defile was absolutely a step in the right direction, for multiple reasons, but the WW self heal is still quite ridiculous. The amount of per-GCD healing needs to come down pretty substantially. If that means that the cost gets changed, or something else is improved to compensate - fine. But the current iteration of that heal is just silly.

The werewolf heal is only ridiculous when you factor in the werewolf having 40k+ health, even then the amount / gcd is high but so is the cost, let's not forget how much more expensive it is than any other self heal in the game.

In pvp fighting anyone with a high burst heal is abnormal for many players. Most are used to appling light pressure and then applying a burst pattern to overcome their enemies healing overtime. However a high health werewolf's burst heal can usually allow them to recover from an enemies burst damage.

My suggestion would be to allow werewolf's heal to scale off stamina and weapon damage, and when running with High damage (40k stamina/5.5k weapon damage) the build the tooltip would look something like this.

Hircine's Fortitude:
Invoke the Huntsman's blessing, healing you for 12000 (roughly 4.8k in pvp) Health and increasing your Health and Magicka Recovery by 25% of the healing caused for 8 seconds. If you are at full Health you instead restore 3000 Stamina. While slotted you gain Major Brutality, increasing your Weapon Damage by 20%.

This lowers the werewolf's burst heal potential, and pushes werewolf away from using a proc oriented health build as their survival plummets without Weapon damage and Stamina. The residual health recovery, turns the heal into a burst/heal over time hybrid. Allowing the all the ticks of recovery brings the total healing to something similar to Vigor, and refunds part of the cost of the heal through increased magicka recovery. However using the heal in quick succession nullifies the residual "healing" and sustain.

The nature of the heal also makes it so you can't precast, keeping it unique from other healing abilities.

So far only issue I've had with a group of werewolves is a very specific build. Leeching and crimson. Take those and add a necro tank running purge. Was fun to fight them for 30+ Minutes. Still, these are specific set combos and outside of that, werewolves seem to be in a decent spot. They've been melting pretty quick for me.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

So far only issue I've had with a group of werewolves is a very specific build. Leeching and crimson. Take those and add a necro tank running purge. Was fun to fight them for 30+ Minutes. Still, these are specific set combos and outside of that, werewolves seem to be in a decent spot. They've been melting pretty quick for me.

2+ Werewolves focus firing with Knight Slayer in BGs is pretty ridiculous. It's not the highest damaging thing ever, but I've still seen them typically get ~800k-1m'ish damage each in a BG, most of it single target, and about ~85% of the total coming from holding down the left mouse button. With the state of the WW self heal and mobility, it's also basically impossible to counter pressure to any significant degree outside of running a full premade. And of course Knight Slayer goes through Mist Form and counters several defensive ultimates as well; the damage ramps up to nearly 5k per proc if using the Goliath or Vampire Lord transformations.

While I think Knight Slayer should probably be changed, this is ultimately a problem with Werewolf itself. I have yet to see another build be anywhere remotely close to what one could call effective by simply running around holding down their left mouse button, and healing themselves to full in 1 or 2 GCDs. It'd be nice if Knight Slayer was actually worthwhile for...anyone else, without being so easily abused by Werewolves.

1 million damage in a BG is nothing. 800k to 1 million damage is what most players / classes get whenever they know what they’re doing. Good players typically get 2 million damage.

Your argument is severely flawed about a specific set making a playstyle strong. There are a lot of sets in the game that are designed for particular classes. So what if a set is good on werewolf. You shouldn’t single out werewolf players for using a set that is made to good use by them.

Metas change so what is in fashion for set use changes too.

Where are all the angry posts about Stam Necros that are unkillable but still pump out 2-3 million damage?

Where are all the angry posts about Mag Sorcs that consistently blow up people from range and can escape from danger at any time?

Where are all the angry posts about Stam Sorcs that are so fast that no one can catch them, bombard spam, apply dots while they watch their opponents melt as they run off?

I can go on and on about each class...

But somehow it’s okay to crap on werewolf players over and over again, when for weeks the damn skill wasn’t even working right to begin with.

What you perceive is an easy playstyle actually is quite difficult to pull off at high level gameplay. There are many drawbacks to playing a werewolf, and I’m not gonna waste time listing it out again for the 100th time.

ZOS, if you’re reading this... just remember, you mess up werewolf coding every patch no matter if you intend to or not. Please just leave us alone. I’ve barely got to play my werewolf recently because it was broken for 3 weeks. Then, you didn’t fix the bug so I spent hours leveling back up the skill. Let us enjoy our builds and our preferred playstyle before you go and blow us up again PLEASE.

Skoomah wrote: »

1 million damage in a BG is nothing. 800k to 1 million damage is what most players / classes get whenever they know what they’re doing. Good players typically get 2 million damage.

Good players do not "typically" get 2 million damage. In fact >= 2 million damage is actually relatively rare, and usually only happens under certain circumstances; such as games with healers that end up lasting for the full 15 minute maximum duration. Even then, it's frequently only achieved with a fairly significant amount of AOE damage. I saw a Magicka Sorcerer in a recent game get 2.8 million damage, but that's only because he was using AOE proc-DOTs (Oblivion's Foe and Syvarra's Scales) in a full duration game...pretty sure Crystal Frag wasn't even on his bar.

So 800k-1m'ish damage, which was largely single target and in games that didn't go the full duration, was nothing to sneeze at. They were higher than some people and lower than others, but the gaps really weren't huge. I'm personally of the opinion that running around a BG while holding down your left mouse button should result in extremely low and easily countered (by every class) damage. And it absolutely shouldn't be rewarded with the ability to counter defensive ultimates, Mist Form, blocking, or any other method of survivability.

Skoomah wrote: »

Your argument is severely flawed about a specific set making a playstyle strong. There are a lot of sets in the game that are designed for particular classes. So what if a set is good on werewolf. You shouldn’t single out werewolf players for using a set that is made to good use by them.

There are other sets that are, or should be, good for Werewolves. Why should they get virtually exclusive use of the BG-specific light armor set? It needs to be reworked into something that's more useful for Magicka setups, and not be a long forgotten relic that's really only useful on Werewolves, or the occasional dual wield Stamina build.

Skoomah wrote: »

Where are all the angry posts about Stam Necros that are unkillable but still pump out 2-3 million damage?

Where are all the angry posts about Mag Sorcs that consistently blow up people from range and can escape from danger at any time?

Where are all the angry posts about Stam Sorcs that are so fast that no one can catch them, bombard spam, apply dots while they watch their opponents melt as they run off?

There are plenty of those posts around the forums, though again your damage numbers on Stamina Necromancer are a bit off. I can think of one on PC-NA that I see who gets in the neighborhood of 2m damage sometimes, and that's through very extensive use of AOE.

Skoomah wrote: »

What you perceive is an easy playstyle actually is quite difficult to pull off at high level gameplay.

They literally held down their left mouse button for ~85% of their damage on any given target, while having the ability to out-heal everyone else in the game (since there weren't any health-stacked Stamina Wardens around). Sure, they had to aim their mouse cursor at whoever they wanted to focus fire, but so does almost everyone else.

Skoomah wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

1 million damage in a BG is nothing. 800k to 1 million damage is what most players / classes get whenever they know what they’re doing. Good players typically get 2 million damage.

Good players do not "typically" get 2 million damage. In fact >= 2 million damage is actually relatively rare, and usually only happens under certain circumstances; such as games with healers that end up lasting for the full 15 minute maximum duration. Even then, it's frequently only achieved with a fairly significant amount of AOE damage. I saw a Magicka Sorcerer in a recent game get 2.8 million damage, but that's only because he was using AOE proc-DOTs (Oblivion's Foe and Syvarra's Scales) in a full duration game...pretty sure Crystal Frag wasn't even on his bar.

So 800k-1m'ish damage, which was largely single target and in games that didn't go the full duration, was nothing to sneeze at. They were higher than some people and lower than others, but the gaps really weren't huge. I'm personally of the opinion that running around a BG while holding down your left mouse button should result in extremely low and easily countered (by every class) damage. And it absolutely shouldn't be rewarded with the ability to counter defensive ultimates, Mist Form, blocking, or any other method of survivability.

Skoomah wrote: »

Your argument is severely flawed about a specific set making a playstyle strong. There are a lot of sets in the game that are designed for particular classes. So what if a set is good on werewolf. You shouldn’t single out werewolf players for using a set that is made to good use by them.

There are other sets that are, or should be, good for Werewolves. Why should they get virtually exclusive use of the BG-specific light armor set? It needs to be reworked into something that's more useful for Magicka setups, and not be a long forgotten relic that's really only useful on Werewolves, or the occasional dual wield Stamina build.

Skoomah wrote: »

Where are all the angry posts about Stam Necros that are unkillable but still pump out 2-3 million damage?

Where are all the angry posts about Mag Sorcs that consistently blow up people from range and can escape from danger at any time?

Where are all the angry posts about Stam Sorcs that are so fast that no one can catch them, bombard spam, apply dots while they watch their opponents melt as they run off?

There are plenty of those posts around the forums, though again your damage numbers on Stamina Necromancer are a bit off. I can think of one on PC-NA that I see who gets in the neighborhood of 2m damage sometimes, and that's through very extensive use of AOE.

Skoomah wrote: »

What you perceive is an easy playstyle actually is quite difficult to pull off at high level gameplay.

They literally held down their left mouse button for ~85% of their damage on any given target, while having the ability to out-heal everyone else in the game (since there weren't any health-stacked Stamina Wardens around). Sure, they had to aim their mouse cursor at whoever they wanted to focus fire, but so does almost everyone else.

What class do you play? Give me chance to pick it apart and ruin any fun you like to have with this game.

Magicka Necromancer. Feel free to explain all the nerfs that such a clearly overpowered and overrepresented class needs. (Side note: Unlike some players, I'll freely talk about my class/gear/etc...needing nerfs, if I think that it's something that will actually help the overall balance of PvP. One example being the previous absurdity that was possible with the Graverobber self-synergy.)

But it seems that you're not really understanding what I'm saying. I never said that Werewolf needs to be nerfed into the ground and made worthless, simply that nobody should be able to do "good" damage by doing nothing more than holding down their left mouse button. And health-based heals are also a big problem with the current state of the game, but that could potentially be remedied by other changes that indirectly affect multiple classes.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

No

Chrlynsch wrote: »

When did Knight slayer become a werewolf specific set?

It seams like set design seams to be the biggest issue for players complaining about werewolf.

Knight slayer should be a counter to werewolf, it cuts through their armor, and deals damage based on max health (the werewolves that players are concerned with are stacking 40K+ health).

I think you are joking
I also have 6 WW, KS dps is too low (heavy rotation) , WW healing can just ignore the dmg, I dont think WW can be killed by 1v1 situration when WW form is up unless new WW player or too squish setup.

WW, crimson, fear

100%, I haven’t really done anything other than bomb recently since this cheese has just made sewers unplayable. I just played a BGs against a werewolf, 1.1M damage from him, there was absolutely 0 hope of killing him at any point and any time his health crept towards 50% he would gap close or sprint off. Werewolf is just killing all aspects of PvP at probably the fastest rate Ive seen so far.

Maybe just make a werewolf yourself, ZOS operates off of numbers. If they see the number of werewolves spike they will make an adjustment. Get your friends together, make a pack, and kill all the other Werewolves with your own werewolf army.

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

No

Chrlynsch wrote: »

When did Knight slayer become a werewolf specific set?

It seams like set design seams to be the biggest issue for players complaining about werewolf.

Knight slayer should be a counter to werewolf, it cuts through their armor, and deals damage based on max health (the werewolves that players are concerned with are stacking 40K+ health).

I think you are joking
I also have 6 WW, KS dps is too low (heavy rotation) , WW healing can just ignore the dmg, I dont think WW can be killed by 1v1 situration when WW form is up unless new WW player or too squish setup.

WW, crimson, fear

100%, I haven’t really done anything other than bomb recently since this cheese has just made sewers unplayable. I just played a BGs against a werewolf, 1.1M damage from him, there was absolutely 0 hope of killing him at any point and any time his health crept towards 50% he would gap close or sprint off. Werewolf is just killing all aspects of PvP at probably the fastest rate Ive seen so far.

Maybe just make a werewolf yourself, ZOS operates off of numbers. If they see the number of werewolves spike they will make an adjustment. Get your friends together, make a pack, and kill all the other Werewolves with your own werewolf army.

I usually play solo, although I’ve thought about this but I feel at the end of the day it will just be more large stalemates with 10 sets of crimson proccing leading to just more bland never ending fights that not even an outside bomber will even be able to stop.