Improvements for MagDk in 2020 (My suggestions)

Ryanoxx · December 2019

Greetings everyone!

I have edited this post and might edit it again due to comments and recommendations. I will try to adjust my suggestions so they fit better into the game! Please give specific reasons and describe in detail what you think.

MagDk has received many nerfs in 2019. Even though they received so many nerfs they still stand strong in duels as one of the best dueling classes. They are decent in Bgs and do fairely well in PvE. However they suffer in openworld Cyrodiil. I thought about it for quite some time to come up with something that fixes all of the mentioned situations without the class losing more identity. Unfortunately it is not possible. Let me clearify some things first to explain why it is not possible, after that I wanna adress the main issues MagDk has and then bring up suggestions how to fix the majority of problems. I know that StamDk isn't suffering as MagDk does and tried to keep that in mind while comming up with my suggestions.

Clarification why MagDk can't be balanced in every case without losing class identity

MagDk stands so strong in duels because it has so much passive damage. By that I mean it has a ton of dots which increase their pressure tremendously and keep it high even if they focus on defense. To weaken MagDk in duels dots would have to be nerfed more which would result in the class losing its identity as dot class.

Issues MagDk deals with in openworld Cyrodiil

MagDk currently is dealing with Sustain Issues. Here is a comparison to other classes passives and active abilities to manage ressources:

Edit: I know this math is not a hundret percent representative of the real situation but the detailed math would take up too much space to put it here. The outcome is pretty much the same.

I only mentioned relevant passives. The relativ average ability cost was calculated by adding up all ability costs without any gear or passive and dividing it by 15. Remember that some cheaper or more expensive abilities are more or less useful which effects the absolute average ability cost. This calculation would take up too much space and makes the post complicate too follow why I will use the relativ average ability cost as reference here with the shortcut "raac".

Sorcerer: Capacitator Passive [10% recovery], Unholy Knowledge Passive [6% costreduction], Dark Conversion [300 magicka/second when used every 20 seconds only], raac: 3780

Templar: Restoring Spirit Passive [5% costreduction], Channeling Focus [240 magicka/second], raac: 3486

Dk: Battle Roar Passive [161 magicka/second]

If the ultimate is used on cooldown with perfect uptime on mountains blessing

Combustion Passive [140 magicka/second]

If one flame damage single target direct damage ability (20% chance for burning), one single target flame damage dot (6% chance for burning), one area of effect flame damage dot (2% chance for burning) hit every second with a destruction staff equipped.

raac: 3717

You can do this for the other classes too but I choose Sorcerer and Templar because their sustain is simple to explain. The numbers are related to magicka, not stamina. As you can see MagDk has a relative average ability cost almost as high as the Sorcerer but is missing the costreduction which results in MagDks having an overall very high skillcost compared to the classes mentioned above. Templars relativ average ability cost is so low due to its cheap major resolve buff ability. It has costreduction as well which will lower the ability costs. MagDk has no costreduction and relies on applying burning and using ultimates which you do not always want to use on cooldown which would result in even lower sustain than mentioned here. Under ideal circumstances you would reach a magicka return of about 300 magicka/second with higher costs than other classes.

MagDk is struggling with mobility as well. They do have access to Major Expedition through Chains which isn't viable since it is working as a gapcloser and does not qualify for a speed buff and Race Against Time which is much more viable and makes sense to run though it will not be enough in most cases since e.g. stamina characters have increased speed from medium armor and sorcerers have streak. The mobility problem is a major one since MagDk was built to stand their ground which they aren't able to anymore due to many nerfs and changes in the past.

MagDks are missing heals over time which is an issue when trying to go offensive when you are pressured a lot in openworld but they do have a lot of burst healing.

Solutions to the problems

[Burning Embers]
Instead of healing all when the ability ends it should heal a percentage (e.g. 75%) of the damage done with every tik every tik.

Example: Embers deals 1000 damage and heals for 750 per tik.

Edit: This ability can only be used on one enemie.

If Burning Embers would be a heal over time it would allow MagDk's to go offensive in openworld situations but would be easier to counter through burst which would make both sides profit in their own way.

[Cauterize]
In addition to the heal it should remove one harmful effect from the target healed.

This would give MagDk's something like Wardens Netch which helps to remove effects like costincrease posions, defile or dots which helps MagDks a lot in openworld to sustain better and wouldn't really effect duels since dueling is about pressure why players use Flames of Oblivion there.

[Elder Dragon Passive]
Instead of healthrecovery this passive should gain a completely new effect. When you take direct single target damage you gain 1 ultimate, this effect can occur every 0.5 seconds.

Edit: Most player that commented thought this is too strong and wanted to see something like flat costreduction instead of this. This of course isn't the only thing that could be done but it is also possible to add a simple passive that gives 3% costreduction which results in about the same sustain.

The healthrecovery does not have any effect at all and might as well be removed. The 1 ultimate every 0.5 seconds helps to sustain openworld but wouldn't make Dks sustain in duels crazy because due to the global cooldown you would usally take direct damage only every second.

[Scaled Armor Passive]
Instead of increasing the Spell Resistance by 3300 it should increase the Spell and Physical Resistance by 1320.

This would balance the resistances better so there is no extreme overload of Spell Resistance and way too low Physical Resistance in lightarmor.

[Volatile Armor]
Decrease the dot damage of this ability by 10% and decrease the damage returned from direct damage attacks by 40%. Instead of Magic Damage it should deal Flame Damage.

[Hardened Armor]
Decrease the damage returned from direct damage attacks by 50%. Instead of Magic Damage it should deal Flame Damage. Remove the Shield granted when the ability is activated, instead you gain Minor Evasion for the full duration giving 10% damage reduction from area of effect abilities.

This would make both morphs appealing, one for more pressure and one for more defense. The damage decrease should happen because it is a defensive skill and shouldn't have too much passive offense. The skill dealing Flame Damage would help sustain in openworld Cyrodiil where you get hit a lot by direct damage attacks from different players which would help you to apply burning and let the skill synergize well with the Combustion Passive but again wouldn't affect dueling too much due to the global cooldown. The shield on Hardened Armor isn't appealing anymore since shields got nerfed. It is so small and doesn't help. Giving Hardened Armor Minor Evasion would make the morph more appealing as well and would make both morphs relevant.

[Igneous Weapons]
Decrease the cost by 35%. Decrease the duration to 25 seconds without the Eternal Mountain Passive skilled. The skill should now also give you Minor Expedition for 10 seconds without Eternal Mountain Passive skilled.

[Molten Armaments]
Decrease the cost by 35%. Decrease the duration to 25 seconds without the Eternal Mountain Passive skilled. Keep the heavy attack bonus.

Edit: Comments mentioned that this buff should be for Stamina Sorcerer only since it is part of their identity. I do understand that but also think that this ability needs a rework.

This would make these skills more appealing and give Dk's better mobility. Right now the skills do not fit into the game and don't work well with Dk's passives.

[World in Ruin Passive]
Decreases the cost of your Stamina Poison abilities by 15% down from 25%.

This helps to keep StamDk's balanced since they benefit from my suggested change to the Elder Dragon Passive too.

Keep in mind that these aren't the only options there are but I think this would be the most fitting solution and give Dk's more identity as well. Numbers might need adjustments and have to be tested on the public test servers. Please tell me your opinion in the comments and keep the discussion active. I will try to reply to everyone. Thank you for reading. Feel free to ask me your questions.

Merry Christmas!

nosecookie · December 2019

No.

Ryanoxx · December 2019

nosecookie wrote: »

No.

Can you at least give a reason?

nosecookie · December 2019

You want to change Elder Dragon Passive from Something nice to have but ultimately weak like health recovery to something like 1 ult per second which would make demigods out of dks. Therefore you have no idea what you're speaking of and automatically invalidates all of your other points.

Ryanoxx · December 2019

nosecookie wrote: »

You want to change Elder Dragon Passive from Something nice to have but ultimately weak like health recovery to something like 1 ult per second which would make demigods out of dks. Therefore you have no idea what you're speaking of and automatically invalidates all of your other points.

As i said this is not the only way to do it and if you didn't read the rest just because of one point then your answer has absolutely no reason. I do know what I'm talking about and I know that it would be strong but it would be less broken than you display it here. There already is the new potion that gives one Minor Heroism which gives you 1 ult every 1.5 seconds and it definitely doesn't make dks demigods. If you would have read the whole post you would have seen that I put at the end that numbers have to be adjusted during pts phase and that this is just a ruff orientation what could be done. If you don't read the post then don't comment on it without refering to anything. This is just very ignorant. The healthrecovery isn't nice to have it is absolutely useless and you might as well safe the skillpoints if it wasn't for the range increase on meele attacks.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

Overbuffing magDK and shoving stamDK into even more of a troll tank role... No thank you.

I wouldn't say DK class is doing very good at the moment however Its due to the fact that everyone has ridicilous self healing atm, which was previously unique to the DK class, and now as result Dks feel subpar.

What does Dk need then:

1. A bit more magicka sustain.Maybe cost reductions to certain abilities.
2. Dots across the board(including non-dk ones) needs buff I would say at least by %10-15
3. Healing across the board needs nerf for ALL specs by a good %30-35. Having a vigor or RR tooltip of 25k, without even building for it, is absurd. I won't even mention how overtuned stuff like matriarch heal is, anyone with eyes and a working brain can notice it.
4. Wings needs to pass through another rework as its too niche, weak in its current state. I don't want it overpowered but considering warden and sorcs have stronger skill absorbtion abilities, its very unfair to Dk which is an immobile class.
5. more stamina flavor. Not neccessarily buffs but more options to break stamDK out of the designated troll tank spot.

Ryanoxx · December 2019

nosecookie wrote: »

You want to change Elder Dragon Passive from Something nice to have but ultimately weak like health recovery to something like 1 ult per second which would make demigods out of dks. Therefore you have no idea what you're speaking of and automatically invalidates all of your other points.

Templars have a passive like Dk's mountains blessing and an additional passive that gives them 5% ultimate costreduction, Sorcerers have 15% costreduction and Wardens even have access to major heroism and a passive that gives them the same ultgen as mountains blessing. I don't need to name more here. Dk's don't have more ultimate regen than other classes and they don't have any costreduction on ultimates. The sustain a Dk would get from 1 more ultimate per second would equal 92 not buffable recovery. I don't see how thats broken. Please give me a reason to value your comment.

validifyedneb18_ESO · December 2019

They probably dont need it, but I would ike them to have a more reliable heal over time / spam heal combo. Living trellis is the maker of Magden, and I dont really feel like I have a reliable "panic"/buff/heal all-in-1 ability on a DK.

pieratsos · December 2019

Ryanoxx wrote: »

nosecookie wrote: »

You want to change Elder Dragon Passive from Something nice to have but ultimately weak like health recovery to something like 1 ult per second which would make demigods out of dks. Therefore you have no idea what you're speaking of and automatically invalidates all of your other points.

Templars have a passive like Dk's mountains blessing and an additional passive that gives them 5% ultimate costreduction, Sorcerers have 15% costreduction and Wardens even have access to major heroism and a passive that gives them the same ultgen as mountains blessing. I don't need to name more here. Dk's don't have more ultimate regen than other classes and they don't have any costreduction on ultimates. The sustain a Dk would get from 1 more ultimate per second would equal 92 not buffable recovery. I don't see how thats broken. Please give me a reason to value your comment.

The reason is that other classes dont benefit as much as DKs from ult regen. When you buff DK ult regen you are also buffing their sustain which can also lead to a buff to dmg/survivability due to not needing to invest as much into sustain. That change would actually make it one of the best passives in the game with absolutely no input from the user. Its prety much twice as good as minor heroism and it can stack on top of it. You are talking about not being able to stand ur ground but that passive alone does exactly that and that is on top of all the other defensive buffs u suggested.

You are also talking about identity and yet you are suggesting to give them minor expedition which is a unique buff to stamsorcs as they are the most mobile class in the game which is their identity. That suggestion makes zero sense in terms of identity. Neither for DKs or for stamsorcs.

You are also oversimplifying sustain so you can have some numbers to compare but what you dont understand is that ur comparison actually has no context in terms of actual gameplay. Take sorcs for example, you take into account the cost of hardcasted frags but no one is using that. You only really use the proc which is cheap. Then you take into account the base cost of streak but the ability has a stacking cost increase. You are simplifying the sustain of dark conversion but thats not the strength of the ability or how its used and ur numbers have no context. Its strength comes from being able to get a burst into sustain when u need it. Which is the exact same thing you did with battle roar. Then you have templars. Backlash and rune are cheap bringing their average ability cost down but those abilities are not actually frequently used while their spammable is more expensive than other other spammables and one of their most frequently used abilities (ritual) is expensive af. Im not saying that u are right or wrong in terms of which class has the best sustain but what you did most definitely doesnt show which class has the best sustain cause ur numbers have no context.

Yes changes are needed, definitely in terms of giving the class its identity back and some of ur suggestions are good or at least they are headed into the right direction but for the most past you are essentially doing what ZOS is doing. Oversimplifying everything just so u can have some numbers to compare but you are losing context and you end up making sweeping changes that are actually off ur intended target.

Ryanoxx · December 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

nosecookie wrote: »

You want to change Elder Dragon Passive from Something nice to have but ultimately weak like health recovery to something like 1 ult per second which would make demigods out of dks. Therefore you have no idea what you're speaking of and automatically invalidates all of your other points.

Templars have a passive like Dk's mountains blessing and an additional passive that gives them 5% ultimate costreduction, Sorcerers have 15% costreduction and Wardens even have access to major heroism and a passive that gives them the same ultgen as mountains blessing. I don't need to name more here. Dk's don't have more ultimate regen than other classes and they don't have any costreduction on ultimates. The sustain a Dk would get from 1 more ultimate per second would equal 92 not buffable recovery. I don't see how thats broken. Please give me a reason to value your comment.

The reason is that other classes dont benefit as much as DKs from ult regen. When you buff DK ult regen you are also buffing their sustain which can also lead to a buff to dmg/survivability due to not needing to invest as much into sustain. That change would actually make it possibly the best passive in the game with absolutely no input from the user. Its prety much twice as good as minor heroism and it can stack on top of it. You are talking about not being able to stand ur ground but that passive alone would actually make the class possibly better than they have ever been before when it comes to standing ur ground and that is on top of all the other defensive buffs u suggested.

You are also talking about identity and yet you are suggesting to give them minor expedition which is a unique buff to stamsorcs as they are the most mobile class in the game which is their identity. That suggestion makes zero sense in terms of identity. Neither for DKs or for stamsorcs.

You are also oversimplifying sustain so you can have some numbers to compare but what you dont understand is that ur comparison actually has no context in terms of actual gameplay. Take sorcs for example, you take into account the cost of hardcasted frags but no one is using that. You only really use the proc which is cheap. Then you take into account the base cost of streak but the ability has a stacking cost increase. You are simplifying the sustain of dark conversion but thats not the strength of the ability or how its used and ur numbers have no context. Its strength comes from being able to get a burst into sustain when u need it. Which is the exact same thing you did with battle roar. Then you have templars. Backlash and rune are cheap bringing their average ability cost down but those abilities are not actually frequently used while their spammable is more expensive than other other spammables and one of their most frequently used abilities (ritual) is expensive af. Im not saying that u are right or wrong in terms of which class has the best sustain but what you did most definitely doesnt show which class has the best sustain cause ur numbers have no context.

Yes changes are needed, definitely in terms of giving the class its identity back and some of ur suggestions are good or at least they are headed into the right direction but for the most past you are essentially doing what ZOS is doing. Oversimplifying everything just so u can have some numbers to compare but you are losing context and you end up making sweeping changes that are actually off ur intended target.

I agree with minor expedition being part of stamsorcs identity but dk need it because they cannot stand their ground. One ult per second would not make them overpowered. In the past there was an dynamic ultimate system which gave you more ultimate the more damage you dealt and with that you could spam ults because there was no cooldown on anything. That was damn broken but one ult a second equals 92 not buffable regen at best as I already mentioned... Thats nothing compared to other classes Sustain passives. Yes I am oversimplifying sustain here as well as the ability cost because if i put all the math for the absolute sustain in here it would be some pages long and no one would want to spend an hour reading it. The outcome is still the same: MagDk's sustain is inferior to other classes. The Skills you use on MagDk mostly have a cost about 3.6k with all passives as breton exept your spammable and Skills that aren't class skills but are used as well like degeneration. I don't know how everyone thinks that 92 not buffable regen through battle roar is op but Sorcs having free conversions through unchained is fine... I play multiple classes and magdk feels the worst in terms of sustain. The 92 Regen wouldn't make MagDk stronger than ever... When we had costreduction in Cp we didn't need any Regen and could permablock easily... that would not be possible with 1 more ult per second not in the slightest.

I am oversimplifying things here but the math and thinking behind it is much more than I posted here. This post with all the things behind it took actually about 4 hours and many small changes over time.

Ryanoxx · December 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

nosecookie wrote: »

You want to change Elder Dragon Passive from Something nice to have but ultimately weak like health recovery to something like 1 ult per second which would make demigods out of dks. Therefore you have no idea what you're speaking of and automatically invalidates all of your other points.

Templars have a passive like Dk's mountains blessing and an additional passive that gives them 5% ultimate costreduction, Sorcerers have 15% costreduction and Wardens even have access to major heroism and a passive that gives them the same ultgen as mountains blessing. I don't need to name more here. Dk's don't have more ultimate regen than other classes and they don't have any costreduction on ultimates. The sustain a Dk would get from 1 more ultimate per second would equal 92 not buffable recovery. I don't see how thats broken. Please give me a reason to value your comment.

The reason is that other classes dont benefit as much as DKs from ult regen. When you buff DK ult regen you are also buffing their sustain which can also lead to a buff to dmg/survivability due to not needing to invest as much into sustain. That change would actually make it one of the best passives in the game with absolutely no input from the user. Its prety much twice as good as minor heroism and it can stack on top of it. You are talking about not being able to stand ur ground but that passive alone does exactly that and that is on top of all the other defensive buffs u suggested.

You are also talking about identity and yet you are suggesting to give them minor expedition which is a unique buff to stamsorcs as they are the most mobile class in the game which is their identity. That suggestion makes zero sense in terms of identity. Neither for DKs or for stamsorcs.

You are also oversimplifying sustain so you can have some numbers to compare but what you dont understand is that ur comparison actually has no context in terms of actual gameplay. Take sorcs for example, you take into account the cost of hardcasted frags but no one is using that. You only really use the proc which is cheap. Then you take into account the base cost of streak but the ability has a stacking cost increase. You are simplifying the sustain of dark conversion but thats not the strength of the ability or how its used and ur numbers have no context. Its strength comes from being able to get a burst into sustain when u need it. Which is the exact same thing you did with battle roar. Then you have templars. Backlash and rune are cheap bringing their average ability cost down but those abilities are not actually frequently used while their spammable is more expensive than other other spammables and one of their most frequently used abilities (ritual) is expensive af. Im not saying that u are right or wrong in terms of which class has the best sustain but what you did most definitely doesnt show which class has the best sustain cause ur numbers have no context.

Yes changes are needed, definitely in terms of giving the class its identity back and some of ur suggestions are good or at least they are headed into the right direction but for the most past you are essentially doing what ZOS is doing. Oversimplifying everything just so u can have some numbers to compare but you are losing context and you end up making sweeping changes that are actually off ur intended target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKvAIUs6tdA&t=349s Anyone remembering this would know that 1 Ult is nothing... When dynamic ult was there magdk was broken but getting 1 ult a second is not an issue at all...

pieratsos · December 2019

Ryanoxx wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

nosecookie wrote: »

You want to change Elder Dragon Passive from Something nice to have but ultimately weak like health recovery to something like 1 ult per second which would make demigods out of dks. Therefore you have no idea what you're speaking of and automatically invalidates all of your other points.

Templars have a passive like Dk's mountains blessing and an additional passive that gives them 5% ultimate costreduction, Sorcerers have 15% costreduction and Wardens even have access to major heroism and a passive that gives them the same ultgen as mountains blessing. I don't need to name more here. Dk's don't have more ultimate regen than other classes and they don't have any costreduction on ultimates. The sustain a Dk would get from 1 more ultimate per second would equal 92 not buffable recovery. I don't see how thats broken. Please give me a reason to value your comment.

The reason is that other classes dont benefit as much as DKs from ult regen. When you buff DK ult regen you are also buffing their sustain which can also lead to a buff to dmg/survivability due to not needing to invest as much into sustain. That change would actually make it possibly the best passive in the game with absolutely no input from the user. Its prety much twice as good as minor heroism and it can stack on top of it. You are talking about not being able to stand ur ground but that passive alone would actually make the class possibly better than they have ever been before when it comes to standing ur ground and that is on top of all the other defensive buffs u suggested.

You are also talking about identity and yet you are suggesting to give them minor expedition which is a unique buff to stamsorcs as they are the most mobile class in the game which is their identity. That suggestion makes zero sense in terms of identity. Neither for DKs or for stamsorcs.

You are also oversimplifying sustain so you can have some numbers to compare but what you dont understand is that ur comparison actually has no context in terms of actual gameplay. Take sorcs for example, you take into account the cost of hardcasted frags but no one is using that. You only really use the proc which is cheap. Then you take into account the base cost of streak but the ability has a stacking cost increase. You are simplifying the sustain of dark conversion but thats not the strength of the ability or how its used and ur numbers have no context. Its strength comes from being able to get a burst into sustain when u need it. Which is the exact same thing you did with battle roar. Then you have templars. Backlash and rune are cheap bringing their average ability cost down but those abilities are not actually frequently used while their spammable is more expensive than other other spammables and one of their most frequently used abilities (ritual) is expensive af. Im not saying that u are right or wrong in terms of which class has the best sustain but what you did most definitely doesnt show which class has the best sustain cause ur numbers have no context.

Yes changes are needed, definitely in terms of giving the class its identity back and some of ur suggestions are good or at least they are headed into the right direction but for the most past you are essentially doing what ZOS is doing. Oversimplifying everything just so u can have some numbers to compare but you are losing context and you end up making sweeping changes that are actually off ur intended target.

I agree with minor expedition being part of stamsorcs identity but dk need it because they cannot stand their ground. One ult per second would not make them overpowered. In the past there was an dynamic ultimate system which gave you more ultimate the more damage you dealt and with that you could spam ults because there was no cooldown on anything. That was damn broken but one ult a second equals 92 not buffable regen at best as I already mentioned... Thats nothing compared to other classes Sustain passives. Yes I am oversimplifying sustain here as well as the ability cost because if i put all the math for the absolute sustain in here it would be some pages long and no one would want to spend an hour reading it. The outcome is still the same: MagDk's sustain is inferior to other classes. The Skills you use on MagDk mostly have a cost about 3.6k with all passives as breton exept your spammable and Skills that aren't class skills but are used as well like degeneration. I don't know how everyone thinks that 92 not buffable regen through battle roar is op but Sorcs having free conversions through unchained is fine... I play multiple classes and magdk feels the worst in terms of sustain. The 92 Regen wouldn't make MagDk stronger than ever... When we had costreduction in Cp we didn't need any Regen and could permablock easily... that would not be possible with 1 more ult per second not in the slightest.

I am oversimplifying things here but the math and thinking behind it is much more than I posted here. This post with all the things behind it took actually about 4 hours and many small changes over time.

You are missing the point. The issue isnt that you didnt do enough math. The issue that ur way of thinking when doing ur math is flat out wrong and you are just presenting numbers with no context.

DKs DO NOT interact with ult regen in the same way as other classes so stop comparing them to other classes. 1-2 ult per second IS NOT just 90 regen so stop downplaying the buff. DKs and ult regen is like pandoras box. Especially with crap like snb ult.

So as far as sustain is concerned let me get this straight, you are saying that DKs have the worst sustain when u put all the math down but you are too bored to do it so u just presented some numbers with no context to make ur point? Yeah thats not how it works mate. Again, im not saying that you are right or wrong in terms of which class has the worst sustain but weighing up all abilities in the same way to get an average cost when the abilities are not used in the same way, is most definitely wrong and doesnt prove anything at all. Templars use ritual twice as much as rune if not even more frequently. You cant take the average cost of the two abilities and present it as a number that indicates templar sustain. Thats misinformation and lack of understanding of the game.

And as far as expedition is concerned, you are basically saying that you dont want to mess up with identity but that is only for DKs. When it comes to stam sorcs screw them. Ok got it. And you are also saying that DK need it because they cant stand their ground but you are obviously going to just ignore that you suggested numerous buffs that help the class do exactly that. Ok that makes sense.

Yeah at this point it doesnt really sound that this is a list of what DKs actually need or that this is a topic of discussion. It mostly seems like a list of what you want without actually caring about balance and that this isnt really actually up for discussion.

Ryanoxx · December 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

nosecookie wrote: »

You want to change Elder Dragon Passive from Something nice to have but ultimately weak like health recovery to something like 1 ult per second which would make demigods out of dks. Therefore you have no idea what you're speaking of and automatically invalidates all of your other points.

Templars have a passive like Dk's mountains blessing and an additional passive that gives them 5% ultimate costreduction, Sorcerers have 15% costreduction and Wardens even have access to major heroism and a passive that gives them the same ultgen as mountains blessing. I don't need to name more here. Dk's don't have more ultimate regen than other classes and they don't have any costreduction on ultimates. The sustain a Dk would get from 1 more ultimate per second would equal 92 not buffable recovery. I don't see how thats broken. Please give me a reason to value your comment.

The reason is that other classes dont benefit as much as DKs from ult regen. When you buff DK ult regen you are also buffing their sustain which can also lead to a buff to dmg/survivability due to not needing to invest as much into sustain. That change would actually make it possibly the best passive in the game with absolutely no input from the user. Its prety much twice as good as minor heroism and it can stack on top of it. You are talking about not being able to stand ur ground but that passive alone would actually make the class possibly better than they have ever been before when it comes to standing ur ground and that is on top of all the other defensive buffs u suggested.

You are also talking about identity and yet you are suggesting to give them minor expedition which is a unique buff to stamsorcs as they are the most mobile class in the game which is their identity. That suggestion makes zero sense in terms of identity. Neither for DKs or for stamsorcs.

You are also oversimplifying sustain so you can have some numbers to compare but what you dont understand is that ur comparison actually has no context in terms of actual gameplay. Take sorcs for example, you take into account the cost of hardcasted frags but no one is using that. You only really use the proc which is cheap. Then you take into account the base cost of streak but the ability has a stacking cost increase. You are simplifying the sustain of dark conversion but thats not the strength of the ability or how its used and ur numbers have no context. Its strength comes from being able to get a burst into sustain when u need it. Which is the exact same thing you did with battle roar. Then you have templars. Backlash and rune are cheap bringing their average ability cost down but those abilities are not actually frequently used while their spammable is more expensive than other other spammables and one of their most frequently used abilities (ritual) is expensive af. Im not saying that u are right or wrong in terms of which class has the best sustain but what you did most definitely doesnt show which class has the best sustain cause ur numbers have no context.

Yes changes are needed, definitely in terms of giving the class its identity back and some of ur suggestions are good or at least they are headed into the right direction but for the most past you are essentially doing what ZOS is doing. Oversimplifying everything just so u can have some numbers to compare but you are losing context and you end up making sweeping changes that are actually off ur intended target.

I agree with minor expedition being part of stamsorcs identity but dk need it because they cannot stand their ground. One ult per second would not make them overpowered. In the past there was an dynamic ultimate system which gave you more ultimate the more damage you dealt and with that you could spam ults because there was no cooldown on anything. That was damn broken but one ult a second equals 92 not buffable regen at best as I already mentioned... Thats nothing compared to other classes Sustain passives. Yes I am oversimplifying sustain here as well as the ability cost because if i put all the math for the absolute sustain in here it would be some pages long and no one would want to spend an hour reading it. The outcome is still the same: MagDk's sustain is inferior to other classes. The Skills you use on MagDk mostly have a cost about 3.6k with all passives as breton exept your spammable and Skills that aren't class skills but are used as well like degeneration. I don't know how everyone thinks that 92 not buffable regen through battle roar is op but Sorcs having free conversions through unchained is fine... I play multiple classes and magdk feels the worst in terms of sustain. The 92 Regen wouldn't make MagDk stronger than ever... When we had costreduction in Cp we didn't need any Regen and could permablock easily... that would not be possible with 1 more ult per second not in the slightest.

I am oversimplifying things here but the math and thinking behind it is much more than I posted here. This post with all the things behind it took actually about 4 hours and many small changes over time.

You are missing the point. The issue isnt that you didnt do enough math. The issue that ur way of thinking when doing ur math is flat out wrong and you are just presenting numbers with no context.

DKs DO NOT interact with ult regen in the same way as other classes so stop comparing them to other classes. 1-2 ult per second IS NOT just 90 regen so stop downplaying the buff. DKs and ult regen is like pandoras box. Especially with crap like snb ult.

So as far as sustain is concerned let me get this straight, you are saying that DKs have the worst sustain when u put all the math down but you are too bored to do it so u just presented some numbers with no context to make ur point? Yeah thats not how it works mate. Again, im not saying that you are right or wrong in terms of which class has the worst sustain but weighing up all abilities in the same way to get an average cost when the abilities are not used in the same way, is most definitely wrong and doesnt prove anything at all. Templars use ritual twice as much as rune if not even more frequently. You cant take the average cost of the two abilities and present it as a number that indicates templar sustain. Thats misinformation and lack of understanding of the game.

And as far as expedition is concerned, you are basically saying that you dont want to mess up with identity but that is only for DKs. When it comes to stam sorcs screw them. Ok got it. And you are also saying that DK need it because they cant stand their ground but you are obviously going to just ignore that you suggested numerous buffs that help the class do exactly that. Ok that makes sense.

Yeah at this point it doesnt really sound that this is a list of what DKs actually need or that this is a topic of discussion. It mostly seems like a list of what you want without actually caring about balance and that this isnt really actually up for discussion.

Again, I am not too bored to put all the math down but it is a ton and people do not even read this post completely so how can i expect them to read 2-3 pages of mathematics. The outcome is still similar to the crappy math i put in here.

Yes ultgen is strong especially with ults like shieldult but again other classes have more magicka/stamina sustain and still have the ultgen to use ults more often than magdk. Idk what you wanna point out here because everything Dks would get from this is something other classes have exept its not related to battle roar and just comming from passives that are independend from ults. It would have the same outcome if they would remove Battle Roar give MagDk more ultgen passives like other classes and give them sustain through something like Conversion or Wardens sustain passives. It would have the same outcome. Battle Roar doesn't change that it just sounds more interesting than putting numbers without context into the game.

I do care about Stamsorcs class identity. I like Stamsorc and I think it needs more work to become more independend but if MagickaDks can't stand their ground which they probably will never be able to again they need any form of mobility and it doesn't have to be expedition but thats just the buff i would think about first. Zenimax doesn't like unique stuff like we have seen in previous patches. These days there are standards for everything and not many unique buffs like the fire damage increase from Engulfing for example. And Dks Ultimate Regeneration is not like pandoras box. It is very easy to understand and makes totally sense. It does not break the game by adding 1 Ult per second. Otherwise the game would be broken by now with the minor heroism potions and thats really not the problem the game has right now. They are perfectly fine and i have not heard anyone complaining about them being overpowered at all.

Ryanoxx · December 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Overbuffing magDK and shoving stamDK into even more of a troll tank role... No thank you.

I wouldn't say DK class is doing very good at the moment however Its due to the fact that everyone has ridicilous self healing atm, which was previously unique to the DK class, and now as result Dks feel subpar.

What does Dk need then:

1. A bit more magicka sustain.Maybe cost reductions to certain abilities.
2. Dots across the board(including non-dk ones) needs buff I would say at least by %10-15
3. Healing across the board needs nerf for ALL specs by a good %30-35. Having a vigor or RR tooltip of 25k, without even building for it, is absurd. I won't even mention how overtuned stuff like matriarch heal is, anyone with eyes and a working brain can notice it.
4. Wings needs to pass through another rework as its too niche, weak in its current state. I don't want it overpowered but considering warden and sorcs have stronger skill absorbtion abilities, its very unfair to Dk which is an immobile class.
5. more stamina flavor. Not neccessarily buffs but more options to break stamDK out of the designated troll tank spot.

I agree with most of your points, burst healing is ridiculous in this game. Idk about buffing dots because thats literally what everyone complains about in duels. I think the new Wings are actually decent but just way too hard to sustain. I honestly don't think that this would be overbuffing MagDk but I might be wrong but thats why I said everything would need to be tested before it goes live. I think especially the Volatile/Hardened Armor change makes sense. I lean more towards nerfing burst healing and having heals over time since they are better to counter but that might just be personal preference idk but it's the reason why I think embers should heal over time and not work as a burst heal.

Joy_Division · December 2019

I get it, Zos took what made DKs fun to play and threw it in the trash bin in favor of some boring percentage modifiers. The class probably feels hollow to play compared to what it once was.

But some of the suggestions you are giving are way too strong and basically ignore that every class is suffering from the things DKs are. Changing a pretty much usless health regen passive to 1 ultimate a second is crazy strong for any class, especially a DK. Every class basically has the same sustain issues; ever since Morrowind zos has repeatedly said they dont want us to have limitless resources, so we're all basically in the same boat there.

As for class identity, well that's a whole different bowl of wax. Im not sure exactly when Zos decided that Dks were the "DOT" class, but I can say when I enjoyed playing a DK, it wasn't becuase I liked putting slow damage over time effects on the bad guys. I played it becuase it could leap tall walls, reflected craven player's snipe spam back in their face, and was a intimidating in your face combatant that did more than "moar dots".

Ryanoxx · December 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

I get it, Zos took what made DKs fun to play and threw it in the trash bin in favor of some boring percentage modifiers. The class probably feels hollow to play compared to what it once was.

But some of the suggestions you are giving are way too strong and basically ignore that every class is suffering from the things DKs are. Changing a pretty much usless health regen passive to 1 ultimate a second is crazy strong for any class, especially a DK. Every class basically has the same sustain issues; ever since Morrowind zos has repeatedly said they dont want us to have limitless resources, so we're all basically in the same boat there.

As for class identity, well that's a whole different bowl of wax. Im not sure exactly when Zos decided that Dks were the "DOT" class, but I can say when I enjoyed playing a DK, it wasn't becuase I liked putting slow damage over time effects on the bad guys. I played it becuase it could leap tall walls, reflected craven player's snipe spam back in their face, and was a intimidating in your face combatant that did more than "moar dots".

I totally agree with the sustain nerf from morrowind but compared to other classes MagDk just has worse sustain than any other.

Derra · December 2019

Ryanoxx wrote: »

nosecookie wrote: »

No.

Can you at least give a reason?

If we ignore the combustion passive - which should totally be reworked so it´s not 100% rendered useless against dunmer or people using a resistance glyph - DK is currently probably the #2 for magica classes open world with the highest skill/build versatility of all mag classes.

It doesn´t need anything apart from combustion being fixed and maybe a slight rework how the whip off-balance/proccs work.

As much as i´d personally wish for embers to work the way that you suggest - it would be massively overpowered especially with multidotting opponents.

Somewhat agree on a rework on molten weapons + morphs. All classes s hould have native sorcery in a worthwhile skill to use.

pieratsos · December 2019

Ryanoxx wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

nosecookie wrote: »

You want to change Elder Dragon Passive from Something nice to have but ultimately weak like health recovery to something like 1 ult per second which would make demigods out of dks. Therefore you have no idea what you're speaking of and automatically invalidates all of your other points.

Templars have a passive like Dk's mountains blessing and an additional passive that gives them 5% ultimate costreduction, Sorcerers have 15% costreduction and Wardens even have access to major heroism and a passive that gives them the same ultgen as mountains blessing. I don't need to name more here. Dk's don't have more ultimate regen than other classes and they don't have any costreduction on ultimates. The sustain a Dk would get from 1 more ultimate per second would equal 92 not buffable recovery. I don't see how thats broken. Please give me a reason to value your comment.

The reason is that other classes dont benefit as much as DKs from ult regen. When you buff DK ult regen you are also buffing their sustain which can also lead to a buff to dmg/survivability due to not needing to invest as much into sustain. That change would actually make it possibly the best passive in the game with absolutely no input from the user. Its prety much twice as good as minor heroism and it can stack on top of it. You are talking about not being able to stand ur ground but that passive alone would actually make the class possibly better than they have ever been before when it comes to standing ur ground and that is on top of all the other defensive buffs u suggested.

You are also talking about identity and yet you are suggesting to give them minor expedition which is a unique buff to stamsorcs as they are the most mobile class in the game which is their identity. That suggestion makes zero sense in terms of identity. Neither for DKs or for stamsorcs.

You are also oversimplifying sustain so you can have some numbers to compare but what you dont understand is that ur comparison actually has no context in terms of actual gameplay. Take sorcs for example, you take into account the cost of hardcasted frags but no one is using that. You only really use the proc which is cheap. Then you take into account the base cost of streak but the ability has a stacking cost increase. You are simplifying the sustain of dark conversion but thats not the strength of the ability or how its used and ur numbers have no context. Its strength comes from being able to get a burst into sustain when u need it. Which is the exact same thing you did with battle roar. Then you have templars. Backlash and rune are cheap bringing their average ability cost down but those abilities are not actually frequently used while their spammable is more expensive than other other spammables and one of their most frequently used abilities (ritual) is expensive af. Im not saying that u are right or wrong in terms of which class has the best sustain but what you did most definitely doesnt show which class has the best sustain cause ur numbers have no context.

Yes changes are needed, definitely in terms of giving the class its identity back and some of ur suggestions are good or at least they are headed into the right direction but for the most past you are essentially doing what ZOS is doing. Oversimplifying everything just so u can have some numbers to compare but you are losing context and you end up making sweeping changes that are actually off ur intended target.

I agree with minor expedition being part of stamsorcs identity but dk need it because they cannot stand their ground. One ult per second would not make them overpowered. In the past there was an dynamic ultimate system which gave you more ultimate the more damage you dealt and with that you could spam ults because there was no cooldown on anything. That was damn broken but one ult a second equals 92 not buffable regen at best as I already mentioned... Thats nothing compared to other classes Sustain passives. Yes I am oversimplifying sustain here as well as the ability cost because if i put all the math for the absolute sustain in here it would be some pages long and no one would want to spend an hour reading it. The outcome is still the same: MagDk's sustain is inferior to other classes. The Skills you use on MagDk mostly have a cost about 3.6k with all passives as breton exept your spammable and Skills that aren't class skills but are used as well like degeneration. I don't know how everyone thinks that 92 not buffable regen through battle roar is op but Sorcs having free conversions through unchained is fine... I play multiple classes and magdk feels the worst in terms of sustain. The 92 Regen wouldn't make MagDk stronger than ever... When we had costreduction in Cp we didn't need any Regen and could permablock easily... that would not be possible with 1 more ult per second not in the slightest.

I am oversimplifying things here but the math and thinking behind it is much more than I posted here. This post with all the things behind it took actually about 4 hours and many small changes over time.

You are missing the point. The issue isnt that you didnt do enough math. The issue that ur way of thinking when doing ur math is flat out wrong and you are just presenting numbers with no context.

DKs DO NOT interact with ult regen in the same way as other classes so stop comparing them to other classes. 1-2 ult per second IS NOT just 90 regen so stop downplaying the buff. DKs and ult regen is like pandoras box. Especially with crap like snb ult.

So as far as sustain is concerned let me get this straight, you are saying that DKs have the worst sustain when u put all the math down but you are too bored to do it so u just presented some numbers with no context to make ur point? Yeah thats not how it works mate. Again, im not saying that you are right or wrong in terms of which class has the worst sustain but weighing up all abilities in the same way to get an average cost when the abilities are not used in the same way, is most definitely wrong and doesnt prove anything at all. Templars use ritual twice as much as rune if not even more frequently. You cant take the average cost of the two abilities and present it as a number that indicates templar sustain. Thats misinformation and lack of understanding of the game.

And as far as expedition is concerned, you are basically saying that you dont want to mess up with identity but that is only for DKs. When it comes to stam sorcs screw them. Ok got it. And you are also saying that DK need it because they cant stand their ground but you are obviously going to just ignore that you suggested numerous buffs that help the class do exactly that. Ok that makes sense.

Yeah at this point it doesnt really sound that this is a list of what DKs actually need or that this is a topic of discussion. It mostly seems like a list of what you want without actually caring about balance and that this isnt really actually up for discussion.

Again, I am not too bored to put all the math down but it is a ton and people do not even read this post completely so how can i expect them to read 2-3 pages of mathematics. The outcome is still similar to the crappy math i put in here.

Yes ultgen is strong especially with ults like shieldult but again other classes have more magicka/stamina sustain and still have the ultgen to use ults more often than magdk. Idk what you wanna point out here because everything Dks would get from this is something other classes have exept its not related to battle roar and just comming from passives that are independend from ults. It would have the same outcome if they would remove Battle Roar give MagDk more ultgen passives like other classes and give them sustain through something like Conversion or Wardens sustain passives. It would have the same outcome. Battle Roar doesn't change that it just sounds more interesting than putting numbers without context into the game.

I do care about Stamsorcs class identity. I like Stamsorc and I think it needs more work to become more independend but if MagickaDks can't stand their ground which they probably will never be able to again they need any form of mobility and it doesn't have to be expedition but thats just the buff i would think about first. Zenimax doesn't like unique stuff like we have seen in previous patches. These days there are standards for everything and not many unique buffs like the fire damage increase from Engulfing for example. And Dks Ultimate Regeneration is not like pandoras box. It is very easy to understand and makes totally sense. It does not break the game by adding 1 Ult per second. Otherwise the game would be broken by now with the minor heroism potions and thats really not the problem the game has right now. They are perfectly fine and i have not heard anyone complaining about them being overpowered at all.

It doesnt matter what you think the outcome is. The issue is the proccess u used. Again, the average cost of two abilities is NOT a representative number of sustain if the two abilities are not used with the same frequency.

Ok, its prety clear that ur gripe is with DK sustain and u are probably right. DKs probably do need more sustain and a good indication of that is the frequent use of ele drain. (There you go, now u have an example of how you prove DK sustain is bad. Not with ur random numbers without context but with actual arguments based on actual gameplay). Anw so lets just give DKs more sustain. Apply minor magickasteal to enemies hit with ur flame damage for X seconds. Or another suggestion would be "when a draconic power ability is active, the magicka cost of ur abilities is decreased by X %" in case you want even more regen on top ele drain and that also helps in PVE. That good enough for you or do you specifically want to double the DK ult regen just for reasons?

Enough with cant stand ur ground so give them expedition nonsense. You say that you want identity which is stand ur ground and you propose solutions to help with that but at the same time u propose mobility because you cant stand ur ground. Choose buddy, which one it is? Cause from the sound of it, ur only intended target here is just random sweeping buffs across the board and not a careful list of what the class needs.

Derra · December 2019

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I get it, Zos took what made DKs fun to play and threw it in the trash bin in favor of some boring percentage modifiers. The class probably feels hollow to play compared to what it once was.

But some of the suggestions you are giving are way too strong and basically ignore that every class is suffering from the things DKs are. Changing a pretty much usless health regen passive to 1 ultimate a second is crazy strong for any class, especially a DK. Every class basically has the same sustain issues; ever since Morrowind zos has repeatedly said they dont want us to have limitless resources, so we're all basically in the same boat there.

As for class identity, well that's a whole different bowl of wax. Im not sure exactly when Zos decided that Dks were the "DOT" class, but I can say when I enjoyed playing a DK, it wasn't becuase I liked putting slow damage over time effects on the bad guys. I played it becuase it could leap tall walls, reflected craven player's snipe spam back in their face, and was a intimidating in your face combatant that did more than "moar dots".

I totally agree with the sustain nerf from morrowind but compared to other classes MagDk just has worse sustain than any other.

It just really doesn´t - if combustion works.
MagDK has probably the easiest and most straight forward in combat sustain of all classes. You don´t need to do anything for it (also the best synergy with elemental drain - bc you have a long duration aoe dot - which guarantees value out of drain even on defense or against dodging targets).

As for actually playing the classes from my personal experience as magica specs sustain wise:
DK (combustion works) < Warden < Templar < Sorc < NB < Necro < DK (combustion does not work)

MartiniDaniels · December 2019

I am DK main and that list looks like clear over buffing the class. Especially 2 ultimate per second...
We were suggesting buffing empowering chains or wings, and people were frightened and infuriated lol

and you suggest to buff almost everything

jcm2606 · December 2019

Derra wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I get it, Zos took what made DKs fun to play and threw it in the trash bin in favor of some boring percentage modifiers. The class probably feels hollow to play compared to what it once was.

But some of the suggestions you are giving are way too strong and basically ignore that every class is suffering from the things DKs are. Changing a pretty much usless health regen passive to 1 ultimate a second is crazy strong for any class, especially a DK. Every class basically has the same sustain issues; ever since Morrowind zos has repeatedly said they dont want us to have limitless resources, so we're all basically in the same boat there.

As for class identity, well that's a whole different bowl of wax. Im not sure exactly when Zos decided that Dks were the "DOT" class, but I can say when I enjoyed playing a DK, it wasn't becuase I liked putting slow damage over time effects on the bad guys. I played it becuase it could leap tall walls, reflected craven player's snipe spam back in their face, and was a intimidating in your face combatant that did more than "moar dots".

I totally agree with the sustain nerf from morrowind but compared to other classes MagDk just has worse sustain than any other.

It just really doesn´t - if combustion works.
MagDK has probably the easiest and most straight forward in combat sustain of all classes. You don´t need to do anything for it (also the best synergy with elemental drain - bc you have a long duration aoe dot - which guarantees value out of drain even on defense or against dodging targets).

As for actually playing the classes from my personal experience as magica specs sustain wise:
DK (combustion works) < Warden < Templar < Sorc < NB < Necro < DK (combustion does not work)

And that's the problem. Our sustain is locked behind complete RNG, even if we're pigeonholed into running a very specific gear setup to maximise the uptime of burning/poisoned. If Combustion is to be an actual sustain tool that is helpful to DK, we need some serious buffs to our applications of burning/poisoned. Whether it be a passive that increases the proc chance considerably, or some additions to our skills that offer us multiple ways of applying burning/poisoned, without pigeonholing us into specific gear/skill choices.

Joy_Division · December 2019

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I get it, Zos took what made DKs fun to play and threw it in the trash bin in favor of some boring percentage modifiers. The class probably feels hollow to play compared to what it once was.

But some of the suggestions you are giving are way too strong and basically ignore that every class is suffering from the things DKs are. Changing a pretty much usless health regen passive to 1 ultimate a second is crazy strong for any class, especially a DK. Every class basically has the same sustain issues; ever since Morrowind zos has repeatedly said they dont want us to have limitless resources, so we're all basically in the same boat there.

As for class identity, well that's a whole different bowl of wax. Im not sure exactly when Zos decided that Dks were the "DOT" class, but I can say when I enjoyed playing a DK, it wasn't becuase I liked putting slow damage over time effects on the bad guys. I played it becuase it could leap tall walls, reflected craven player's snipe spam back in their face, and was a intimidating in your face combatant that did more than "moar dots".

I totally agree with the sustain nerf from morrowind but compared to other classes MagDk just has worse sustain than any other.

You need to play other classes more if you feel that's the case

IronWooshu · December 2019

Burst healing is the reason why DK's feel weak right now. Healing is overtuned in PVP while dots got nerfed. However the sustain issues I face daily in PVP are more of a problem. I am hoping the raised costs of DK skills were to prepare for a passive overhaul which will add to DK sustain and Ult generation.

ZOS_Volpe · December 2019

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Ragnarock41 · December 2019

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Overbuffing magDK and shoving stamDK into even more of a troll tank role... No thank you.

I wouldn't say DK class is doing very good at the moment however Its due to the fact that everyone has ridicilous self healing atm, which was previously unique to the DK class, and now as result Dks feel subpar.

What does Dk need then:

1. A bit more magicka sustain.Maybe cost reductions to certain abilities.
2. Dots across the board(including non-dk ones) needs buff I would say at least by %10-15
3. Healing across the board needs nerf for ALL specs by a good %30-35. Having a vigor or RR tooltip of 25k, without even building for it, is absurd. I won't even mention how overtuned stuff like matriarch heal is, anyone with eyes and a working brain can notice it.
4. Wings needs to pass through another rework as its too niche, weak in its current state. I don't want it overpowered but considering warden and sorcs have stronger skill absorbtion abilities, its very unfair to Dk which is an immobile class.
5. more stamina flavor. Not neccessarily buffs but more options to break stamDK out of the designated troll tank spot.

I agree with most of your points, burst healing is ridiculous in this game. Idk about buffing dots because thats literally what everyone complains about in duels. I think the new Wings are actually decent but just way too hard to sustain. I honestly don't think that this would be overbuffing MagDk but I might be wrong but thats why I said everything would need to be tested before it goes live. I think especially the Volatile/Hardened Armor change makes sense. I lean more towards nerfing burst healing and having heals over time since they are better to counter but that might just be personal preference idk but it's the reason why I think embers should heal over time and not work as a burst heal.

This game is not balanced around dueling but even if it was only the absolute garbage cries over dot damage in this patch.

Ryanoxx · December 2019

Derra wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

nosecookie wrote: »

No.

Can you at least give a reason?

If we ignore the combustion passive - which should totally be reworked so it´s not 100% rendered useless against dunmer or people using a resistance glyph - DK is currently probably the #2 for magica classes open world with the highest skill/build versatility of all mag classes.

It doesn´t need anything apart from combustion being fixed and maybe a slight rework how the whip off-balance/proccs work.

As much as i´d personally wish for embers to work the way that you suggest - it would be massively overpowered especially with multidotting opponents.

Somewhat agree on a rework on molten weapons + morphs. All classes s hould have native sorcery in a worthwhile skill to use.

I totally agree with the Embers part, I actually wanted to put another part to it so it is like Curse and can only be used on one enemie!

For magicka classes openworld I would say it's Sorc>Templar>Dk>Warden>Necro. But this might just be my view since I'm only doing Solo and Duo PvP openworld and MagDk is really bad for 1vX. Yes, sustain on MagDk doesn't require an ability like Conversion for example and that makes it more passive and if Combustion would actually work better then sustain would be fine. You would have to proc burning every 2 seconds though to keep up with other classes sustain. Thats the reason why I would like to see Hardened Armor/Volatile Armor dealing Flame Damage because the more enemies you are fighting the higher the chance would be to proc burning. Since it is direct damage and would probably not count as dot it would have a 10% chance to proc burning on default for every direct damage returned. I also wanted to decrease the damage because Flame Damage is stronger than Magic Damage and it is a primary defensive ability why the damage return shouldn't be 2k tool. I see that everyone thinks that increasing ultimate generation would be too much and I get their point even though I think that if the numbers would be adjusted it should be fine but I would be fine with any optimization to sustain as long as I can sustain good enough to not run out while running breton with heavy sustain from sets and so on. I know that you are a good player so I really value your opinion. Thank you very much for commenting!

Ryanoxx · December 2019

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I get it, Zos took what made DKs fun to play and threw it in the trash bin in favor of some boring percentage modifiers. The class probably feels hollow to play compared to what it once was.

But some of the suggestions you are giving are way too strong and basically ignore that every class is suffering from the things DKs are. Changing a pretty much usless health regen passive to 1 ultimate a second is crazy strong for any class, especially a DK. Every class basically has the same sustain issues; ever since Morrowind zos has repeatedly said they dont want us to have limitless resources, so we're all basically in the same boat there.

As for class identity, well that's a whole different bowl of wax. Im not sure exactly when Zos decided that Dks were the "DOT" class, but I can say when I enjoyed playing a DK, it wasn't becuase I liked putting slow damage over time effects on the bad guys. I played it becuase it could leap tall walls, reflected craven player's snipe spam back in their face, and was a intimidating in your face combatant that did more than "moar dots".

I totally agree with the sustain nerf from morrowind but compared to other classes MagDk just has worse sustain than any other.

You need to play other classes more if you feel that's the case

I do play any class exept Stamplar, Wardens and Necros.

jcm2606 · December 2019

IronWooshu wrote: »

Burst healing is the reason why DK's feel weak right now. Healing is overtuned in PVP while dots got nerfed. However the sustain issues I face daily in PVP are more of a problem. I am hoping the raised costs of DK skills were to prepare for a passive overhaul which will add to DK sustain and Ult generation.

If it was, why would they up the costs of skills before rolling out the sustain improvements that warrant cost increases in the first place?

Kadoin · December 2019

IronWooshu wrote: »

Burst healing is the reason why DK's feel weak right now. Healing is overtuned in PVP while dots got nerfed. However the sustain issues I face daily in PVP are more of a problem. I am hoping the raised costs of DK skills were to prepare for a passive overhaul which will add to DK sustain and Ult generation.

I'm pretty sure its not burst healing, but HoTs. I have enough HoT healing on DK, Templar, Warden, and NB to face tank a zerg on breach getting hit with coldharbour and fire ballistas. The healing from some of these sets + skills is so high that I can heal from near 0 to 50 in less than 2 seconds with HoTs alone.

The fact of the matter is that DK can't compete with HoTs and cleanse because ZOS lowered damage and increased costs of skills - forcing you, the DK to take a double hit to damage: one from the nerf, the other when you build sustain. If not that, then you must lose survivability, sustain, and/or mobility -- three things that are more important than damage in PvP IMO.

EDIT: I should also mention that the damage reduction in the game is also ridiculous in recent patches, and I wonder if the damage reduction works properly sometimes and if ZOS realizes some of these sets that seem weak are really OP if and when you can force the conditions for their use...

Ryanoxx · December 2019

Kadoin wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Burst healing is the reason why DK's feel weak right now. Healing is overtuned in PVP while dots got nerfed. However the sustain issues I face daily in PVP are more of a problem. I am hoping the raised costs of DK skills were to prepare for a passive overhaul which will add to DK sustain and Ult generation.

I'm pretty sure its not burst healing, but HoTs. I have enough HoT healing on DK, Templar, Warden, and NB to face tank a zerg on breach getting hit with coldharbour and fire ballistas. The healing from some of these sets + skills is so high that I can heal from near 0 to 50 in less than 2 seconds with HoTs alone.

The fact of the matter is that DK can't compete with HoTs and cleanse because ZOS lowered damage and increased costs of skills - forcing you, the DK to take a double hit to damage: one from the nerf, the other when you build sustain. If not that, then you must lose survivability, sustain, and/or mobility -- three things that are more important than damage in PvP IMO.

EDIT: I should also mention that the damage reduction in the game is also ridiculous in recent patches, and I wonder if the damage reduction works properly sometimes and if ZOS realizes some of these sets that seem weak are really OP if and when you can force the conditions for their use...

Well, MagDk doesn't have heals over time but I agree that the tankiness lately is ridiculous and heals over time are part of it but also burst heals which are sometimes crazy.

WoppaBoem · December 2019

I loved my MagDK but its now in cold storage. Sustain is so wack not fun to play. The above changes sound really good keep it up. MagDK needs something.