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REMOVE THE POPULATION INDICATORS

  • ZOS_JesC
    ZOS_JesC
    admin
    Greetings, we've removed and edited a few quotes that were baiting. Friendly reminder to check your posts against the forum rules. It's fine to disagree with other members but name calling and personal insults aren't permitted. Keep comments on topic and productive. Thank you for your understanding.
    The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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    Staff Post
  • Anazasi
    Anazasi
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    If all of those who believe they understand the "population" bars can explain with certainty of cited material on how they actually work It would be awesome. I prefer the Chicago Style over MLA style of footnotes. Until the wise players who know everything ESO can provide such documented evidence all of you are speculating on uncertainty or simply repeating what some other fool has told you. As it was pointed out 1 player = 1 bar, but 10 players could mean 2 bars. A population lock may indicate 100 players or it could be 500 players. This is just a visual representation of assumptions since ZOS has NEVER said exactly how the graphic representations are calculated. This FACT leads to ambiguity about what really is happening when it comes to population. Is it wrong to request the mechanics be less ambiguas? If players want to accept that, well that's fine. But some of us are rightfully tired of uncertainty especially when the creators of the game have the ability to remove such things or provide actual numbers.

    What purpose does it serve to have such secrets regarding actual numbers for each faction? Why has this never been addressed in the past. What does ZOS gain by leaving it this way or what do the players gain by this? There are hundreds of games on the market that clearly show numbers in pvp areas, maps or even logged into a particular server. Why has ZOS left this information hidden?

    Grown-ups understand responsibility and accountability. We tend to associate it with social morality. We also tend to question more with the desire to gain understanding. This is what separates grown-up from children.
  • Joy_Division
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    Anazasi wrote: »
    If all of those who believe they understand the "population" bars can explain with certainty of cited material on how they actually work It would be awesome. I prefer the Chicago Style over MLA style of footnotes. Until the wise players who know everything ESO can provide such documented evidence all of you are speculating on uncertainty or simply repeating what some other fool has told you. As it was pointed out 1 player = 1 bar, but 10 players could mean 2 bars. A population lock may indicate 100 players or it could be 500 players. This is just a visual representation of assumptions since ZOS has NEVER said exactly how the graphic representations are calculated. This FACT leads to ambiguity about what really is happening when it comes to population. Is it wrong to request the mechanics be less ambiguas? If players want to accept that, well that's fine. But some of us are rightfully tired of uncertainty especially when the creators of the game have the ability to remove such things or provide actual numbers.

    What purpose does it serve to have such secrets regarding actual numbers for each faction? Why has this never been addressed in the past. What does ZOS gain by leaving it this way or what do the players gain by this? There are hundreds of games on the market that clearly show numbers in pvp areas, maps or even logged into a particular server. Why has ZOS left this information hidden?

    Grown-ups understand responsibility and accountability. We tend to associate it with social morality. We also tend to question more with the desire to gain understanding. This is what separates grown-up from children.

    For someone demanding academic standards, you certainly don't mind ignoring them is your conspiracy posts.

    It wouldn't serve any purpose giving the exact number. Because even if they did and it said AD is at 110 and EP is at 96, you'll still come onto these forums and claim that AD is outnumbered and screwed because that number is inaccurate and the 96 EP are all running Cheat Engine.
  • VaranisArano
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    If ZOS gives the actual numbers, players will A) scream about being zerged/outnumbered, and B.) that ZOS is killing PVP with low numbers.

    If ZOS removes the pop indicators entirely, players lose all indication of what their pop is like, leading to tunnel vision about their section of the map, leading to much screaming about "we're being zerged" and "we're so outnumbered" and "where are all the EP/DC/AD" posts. With changes to underdog bonuses, those indicators are important to see when those are,active.

    So remind me again why it would be beneficial for ZOS to remove the pop indicators or release the actual numbers?
    Edited by VaranisArano on April 29, 2018 2:28PM
  • Anrose
    Anrose
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    I don’t know about anyone else, but I would be satisfied with just knowing how many players it takes to lock the population in any given alliance.
  • Anazasi
    Anazasi
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    If ZOS gives the actual numbers, players will A) scream about being zerged/outnumbered, and B.) that ZOS is killing PVP with low numbers.

    If ZOS removes the pop indicators entirely, players lose all indication of what their pop is like, leading to tunnel vision about their section of the map, leading to much screaming about "we're being zerged" and "we're so outnumbered" and "where are all the EP/DC/AD" posts. With changes to underdog bonuses, those indicators are important to see when those are,active.

    So remind me again why it would be beneficial for ZOS to remove the pop indicators or release the actual numbers?

    How is this any different than now? You are stating the obvious conditions that are the result of the current situation. A change would be A removing them or B making them actual numbers. Until something like this is done you will continue to see the same behaviors and posts because no one knows what they actually mean or what the actual population is. The ambiguity of this type of system reinforces the numerous threads and posts. Remove the negative reinforcement and see if the results change. If you think the low pop bonus is working as intended wait till you see what's on PTS. We will all get a good warm fuzzy feeling on May 21.
  • Iskras
    Iskras
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    Anrose wrote: »
    I don’t know about anyone else, but I would be satisfied with just knowing how many players it takes to lock the population in any given alliance.

    2
  • Iskras
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    like now... AD queue, 3 bars, we dont have 2 in really.
  • Iskras
    Iskras
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    It is absurdly disproportional what we see in the game and in the queue. It is the height of following the game or ZOS talking in 'fairness' in the campaign / Cyrodiil, when, in fact, we witness the glaring disproportionality of public in factions. The queue has to change and not only present numbers, but new criteria to enter the 'main campaign' for 'equality' and not for 'inequality' (as it currently is).
    Edited by Iskras on April 29, 2018 8:18PM
  • Reverb
    Reverb
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    Iskras wrote: »
    like now... AD queue, 3 bars, we dont have 2 in really.

    You don’t know that.
    Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche
  • Iskras
    Iskras
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    Reverb wrote: »
    Iskras wrote: »
    like now... AD queue, 3 bars, we dont have 2 in really.

    You don’t know that.

    But u know? ;)
  • Reverb
    Reverb
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    Iskras wrote: »
    Reverb wrote: »
    Iskras wrote: »
    like now... AD queue, 3 bars, we dont have 2 in really.

    You don’t know that.

    But u know? ;)

    No, but I’m not the one making baseless claims.
    Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche
  • Anazasi
    Anazasi
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    Baseless claims are invited because of the ambiguity (you can use the word uncertainty if you are unsure of the meaning of ambiguity) of the existing system. If ZOS wants to hide the actual numbers because they advertised "massive" pvp and failed to deliver that at launch or even 4 years later, well that just unethical. But as subscribers we have a right to know what the actual number of players are in a campaign. I would say since we all are here we don't actually mind playing the game regardless of what the bars mean, but we should expect more from ZOS considering they reportedly have sold over 7 million copies. If ZOS wants to hide information from their players someone should at least be asking WHY? If you don't care that's your prerogative, but consumers have the right to know.
  • Logey7
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    I'm confused, why get rid of something fo give you a general idea of how many players? I mean, don't use it if you don't like it, but it's not hindering anything so I'm not really seeing the harm, or the need to remove it.
  • Iskras
    Iskras
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    Dont need say more nothing



    https://imgur.com/a/lUpIMrN



    End topic!
  • boggo
    boggo
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    Logey7 wrote: »
    I'm confused, why get rid of something fo give you a general idea of how many players? I mean, don't use it if you don't like it, but it's not hindering anything so I'm not really seeing the harm, or the need to remove it.

    Reason has left this discussion a while ago. XD
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    Iskras wrote: »
    Dont need say more nothing



    https://imgur.com/a/lUpIMrN



    End topic!

    Maybe it is because your alliance sucks?
    Or bc many are in IC?
    Or the raids just joined?
    Or bc they all flock to the same keep as a giant swarm?

    These pics don’t tell much.
  • Iskras
    Iskras
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    Iskras wrote: »
    Dont need say more nothing



    https://imgur.com/a/lUpIMrN



    End topic!

    Maybe it is because your alliance sucks?
    Or bc many are in IC?
    Or the raids just joined?
    Or bc they all flock to the same keep as a giant swarm?

    These pics don’t tell much.

    In general I do not respond to childishness in either forum, but I will respond this time in the same key:

    The sucks aliance won the last campaign.
    Edited by Iskras on April 30, 2018 8:17AM
  • Chilly-McFreeze
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    Iskras wrote: »
    Iskras wrote: »
    Dont need say more nothing



    https://imgur.com/a/lUpIMrN



    End topic!

    Maybe it is because your alliance sucks?
    Or bc many are in IC?
    Or the raids just joined?
    Or bc they all flock to the same keep as a giant swarm?

    These pics don’t tell much.

    In general I do not respond to childishness in either forum, but I will respond this time in the same key:

    The sucks aliance won the last campaign.

    Dunno who won, I don't play CP pvp.

    But okay, was a bit offensive formulated but what I meant is that just bc an alliance has pop lock doesn't mean that there are all organized raids (sure, with the numbers it's to be expected that some guilds are on), can very well be many mindless newbies. AD could just be outplayed on that specific time.

    Or who knows, maybe the purple alliance was at work. It's rather tedious to defend against two alliances at once. That plus the other 3 things I mentioned can very well result in the pics you linked. It also doesn't show what happend after your screenshot. Tables could turn very easily.

    But like I said, Vivec is only my guest camp and I don't play there at all. However, there was a time I prefered vivec. And each morning the map was completely yellow. So what?
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on April 30, 2018 10:01AM
  • technohic
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    I just wish the IC wasn’t counted. If I want to play something other than Vivec, I want to check and see at least a couple bars on all 3 sides.

    Hate going in to find not a lot of action other than 3 on 3 where
    3 just stand on the wall rather than come out to fight with no siege running. Or 1 guy running around a tower chased by 4. Actually helped kill a guy doing it hoping to see faction mates just keep hitting resources round robin for a rinse and repeat. Boring so I left.
  • Earthewen
    Earthewen
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    Just make it show the exact number of players , i dont see what the big issue is.

    I would agree with you. I'm not sure why all the secrecy surrounding the populations. Perhaps the pops are so broken that to reveal the actual number would point that fact out. At the end of the day, ZOS Is just a business trying to make money so I guess this type of thing is to be expected.
  • Agrippa_Invisus
    Agrippa_Invisus
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    Disassociating IC from Cyrodiil's population is a change I think most would readily agree on. Make it so you can enter IC from outside Cyrodiil (you can leave the entrances in Cyro still, it wouldn't hurt) and then when you enter IC, you're removed from the campaign and your spot given to the next in queue. Same as if you used a transit shrine from a gate to go to Craglorn.

    Make it so on leaving IC, you're transported back to your faction's capital city (IE: Mournhold, Grahtwood, or Wayrest).

    Combine all the IC instances into one and make it so it can be freely entered by anyone and has its own population / queue to get in. Heck, you can even give it some PVP AP leaderboards that give away free tel var stones to the top 100 or something.

    Voila.
    Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
    DragonKnight / Templar / Warden / Sorcerer - Vagabond
    Once a General, now a Citizen
    Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
    For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!
  • VaranisArano
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    Disassociating IC from Cyrodiil's population is a change I think most would readily agree on. Make it so you can enter IC from outside Cyrodiil (you can leave the entrances in Cyro still, it wouldn't hurt) and then when you enter IC, you're removed from the campaign and your spot given to the next in queue. Same as if you used a transit shrine from a gate to go to Craglorn.

    Make it so on leaving IC, you're transported back to your faction's capital city (IE: Mournhold, Grahtwood, or Wayrest).

    Combine all the IC instances into one and make it so it can be freely entered by anyone and has its own population / queue to get in. Heck, you can even give it some PVP AP leaderboards that give away free tel var stones to the top 100 or something.

    Voila.

    As long as there's a CP instance, No CP Instance, and Below Level 50 Instance of the Imperial City, this sounds great.
  • Anazasi
    Anazasi
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    Disassociating IC from Cyrodiil's population is a change I think most would readily agree on. Make it so you can enter IC from outside Cyrodiil (you can leave the entrances in Cyro still, it wouldn't hurt) and then when you enter IC, you're removed from the campaign and your spot given to the next in queue. Same as if you used a transit shrine from a gate to go to Craglorn.

    Make it so on leaving IC, you're transported back to your faction's capital city (IE: Mournhold, Grahtwood, or Wayrest).

    Combine all the IC instances into one and make it so it can be freely entered by anyone and has its own population / queue to get in. Heck, you can even give it some PVP AP leaderboards that give away free tel var stones to the top 100 or something.

    Voila.

    wishful thinking. never going to happen because of zone and code. even if these were tasks they could easily do there's the immersion aspect ZOS won't cross.
  • Katahdin
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    I agree removing the population indicators will not solve the issues stated. However, I would prefer to see actual number so we can know if the "we are so outnumbered" thing is real nor not.

    If for example:
    one bar = 1-50
    Two bars = 51-100
    Three bars = 101-150

    Every faction is at 3 bars. Faction A and B are at 140 players each and faction C is at 101, it could make a big difference in faction C's ability to defend, particularly if they are being 2v1 by the other two.
    Edited by Katahdin on May 1, 2018 4:50PM
    Beta tester November 2013
  • REiiGN15
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    I really do believe there are those who get on a certain alliance to just take a spot and basically not do anything to actually help that alliance when they have other characters on the winning alliance as their mains.
  • jerj6925
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    Anazasi wrote: »
    They are not accurate or are so easily bypassed that you need to just remove them. 20 AD trying to defend against 100 DC. This is pathetic and ZOS is responsible for it. FIX the GAME before you release any new content.

    There is no revenue generated by fixing anything, not as long as the masses continue to pay and play. there is revenue generated with the release of new content because even though the game is broken it wont mater because people are still paying to get the new content with the belief some day the game will be fixed... but it wont because it does not generate any revenue.
  • Vilestride
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    REiiGN15 wrote: »
    I really do believe there are those who get on a certain alliance to just take a spot and basically not do anything to actually help that alliance when they have other characters on the winning alliance as their mains.

    Is it wrong that during the jubilee event I purposely did all my PvE motif box farming on my AD toon during prime time just to take up a queue spot for that time and purposely didn't capture the flags at the town quest hubs Incase it created advantageous spawn points that would negatively impact The Pact?
  • pcar944
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    what would be nice is if the que was locked to whichever alliance has the least amount of members

    like a cap

    so if there is only 20 AD players on, EP and DC can only have 20 as well, as the lowest pop # grows, so it does for other alliances

    but that means opening up more servers so everyone can play, or something, more thought may be required

    BUT as far as seeing and not seeing bars - people with lower pop - especially when they watch the bars - will get distraught and turtle up if there isn't a PVP group/raid playing at the moment - anyone who has played for a while knows this is true - not being able to see the #'s is not a bad thing at all, especially since we can all agree - without knowing actual numbers or even ranges - they are meaningless anyway
    One Tamriel killed PVP

    DC Magicka Orc Necromancer climbing those ranks ...
  • Anazasi
    Anazasi
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    Vilestride wrote: »
    REiiGN15 wrote: »
    I really do believe there are those who get on a certain alliance to just take a spot and basically not do anything to actually help that alliance when they have other characters on the winning alliance as their mains.

    Is it wrong that during the jubilee event I purposely did all my PvE motif box farming on my AD toon during prime time just to take up a queue spot for that time and purposely didn't capture the flags at the town quest hubs Incase it created advantageous spawn points that would negatively impact The Pact?

    Probably not wrong, but definitely trollish....
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