How is a Templar Vampire lore friendly?

ZOS_Mika · February 2018

We have recently removed a few unnecessary comments. Please refrain from making insulting and threatening comments toward others on the forums.

SilverIce58 · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

There is a book in game doubting that the Templars abilities are from Stendarr or divine at all. It could be that it is just ordinary magic shaped to look divine.

Similarly there is a book in game stating that the dragonknights flame abilites are just destruction magic made to look fancy.

I'm too lazy to find the books at the moment.

Until you find them we have to assume they don't exist.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/friend-all-mortals
This is about all I could find on Stendarr and his magic. However, since it was written as a piece of religious work, it is deemed false, because as we all know magic does not come from Aedra/Daedra, it "flows from Aetherius into Mundus by way of the sun and stars". However, your average run-of-the-mill priest/priestess/regular joe wouldn't actually know that unless they studied magic.

There's also this: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/eso-rp-interviews-phrastus-elinhir where if you ctrl-f "templar" you'll find a piece of info where Phrastus states that "as the so-called templar discipline is rather recent and it may draw upon marshal magics originally developed by the Resolutes of Stendarr; in fact, that seems quite likely. But it also seems certain that the ability to use these magics has little, if nothing, to do with the faith of the wielder."

SilverIce58 · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

There is a book in game doubting that the Templars abilities are from Stendarr or divine at all. It could be that it is just ordinary magic shaped to look divine.

Similarly there is a book in game stating that the dragonknights flame abilites are just destruction magic made to look fancy.

I'm too lazy to find the books at the moment.

Knowledge wrote: »

Until you find them we have to assume they don't exist.

Fortunately for you lazy louts, I like the lore and the UESP is easy to look up books.

Dragonknight book: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ardent_Flame:_Draconic_or_Endemic?

Templar abilities are from Stendarr book: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Aura_of_the_Righteous
Templar abilities (at least the healing ones) are Stendarr's gifts made into spells that can be used by anyone book: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Rituals_of_the_Harmonious_Masters

Those books are religious doctrines tho, which is what the Order would teach to each new Resolute of Stendarr.

Recremen · February 2018

The Templar class (and all classes) is an inexact placeholder for someone's desired character design and shouldn't always be thought of as a stereotyped archetype. We work with what we have, and if someone has a character design that's close-ish to Templar ability visual aesthetics, but then ends up needing to go vampire for something like build viability, then that's not really on them. It's a sacrifice made due to the nature of the game and the limitations and restrictions that come with it.

xeNNNNN · February 2018

Androconium wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

hello,

Where were you in 2002?

'the Sims' got Nightlife and vampires
TESIII got Tribunal and vampires

A year later it was werewolves. It's a childish fantasy thing. Thank Buffy.

anyway that's when lore was made law.

Lol wasn't just buffy there are plenty of old novels out there that many read before buffy was a thing.

starkerealm · February 2018

Androconium wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

hello,

Where were you in 2002?

'the Sims' got Nightlife and vampires
TESIII got Tribunal and vampires

A year later it was werewolves. It's a childish fantasy thing. Thank Buffy.

anyway that's when lore was made law.

Vampires were in Morrowind at launch, but they're not the first place you could find them in a TES game. In fact, Daggerfall had a more involved system for vampires, with over a dozen distinct clans. When you became one you'd formally die, and then rise from your grave, this would reset your status in all of the guilds to zero (and could potentially lock you out of The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood, as I recall.)

Daggerfall also had Werewolves and Wereboars, which you could also become infected by and transform into. At least, it was supposed to be possible to become a wereboar, however the scripting was bugged, so you would become a werewolf regardless.

So, that was back in 1996, before the Buffy TV series even hit the air... so clearly that must have been the inspiration. It couldn't have been centuries of literature and folklore that surrounded it.

Fun trivia: The novel Dracula was published 100 years before the Buffy TV series aired. The show's schedule would have put a first season episode up on the exact anniversary, but production apparently pushed a rerun that week.

Draxys · February 2018

Because not locking an entire class out of something > lore

starkerealm · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Well, as a Vampire you only denounce Arkay, not Stendarr, who's the one attributed for giving Templars their abilities.

Are you still fighting in Stendarr's name? If so, why would he strip you of your powers, especially when he can always get another one of his multitude of servants to wipe you out after you've done your fill of Mercy Slayings?

He's the God of Mercy, would seem cruel of him to just steal your powers when there's so much good you can still do.

Have you played the Knights of the Nine expansion for TES IV: Oblivion? Stendarr may be good, but he is not nice.

Have you played The Elder Scrolls? None of the Aedra, or Daedra, are nice. :P

Though, it is kinda amusing you single out Kot9, because that's the release where Meridia is the Daedra pulling strings behind the scenes.

I mean, to be fair, there are a few Aedra you could probably make an argument for. Mara and Dibella come to mind. But, the Aedra and Daedra really do exist outside easily categorized morality, when you get down to it. Some are more dangerous, unpredictable, and destructive than others, but they don't really slot into convenient Good vs Evil dynamics.

I singled out Stendarr in the Knights of the Nine, because I was responding to a comment calling Stendarr the God of Mercy and suggesting that Stendarr would surely not be so cruel as to remove the powers he gave a templar if said templar became a vampire.

Given that in KotN, Stendarr
curses multiple generations of a knight's family with a debilitating curse/illness because said knight struck and killed a beggar while wearing the gloves of Stendarr, even though the family members had nothing to do with it AND releasing them from the curse requires someone else taking up the curse with no guarantee it won't get passed on to their family members in turn...
I've got no problems believing that Stendarr could be so cruel. Or not, as his whim took him.

Stendarr is good, but not nice. (Which is true, as you say, of most of the TES gods, but I was specifically speaking of Stendarr because that was the conversation I was taking part in.)

I thought I responded to this, though evidently not. Nearly all of the gods (be that Aedra, or Daedra) have pretty well pronounced vindictive streaks when they feel they've been crossed. For example, Azura cursing the entirety of the Chimer race, turning them into the Dunmer because of the murder of Nerevar. To be fair, some of them are far more laissez faire about people messing with them and their plans.

SugaComa · February 2018

Some times *** just happens

Knowledge · February 2018

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We have recently removed a few unnecessary comments. Please refrain from making insulting and threatening comments toward others on the forums.

Thanks!

arena25 · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

My main is a Khajiit Templar and is also a vampire.

As far as whether it follows lore, it probably doesn't, but the days where ZeniMax strictly followed the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe ended when they introduced the Crown Crates. Ban me if you will for this comment, but it is true.

VaranisArano · February 2018

arena25 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

My main is a Khajiit Templar and is also a vampire.

As far as whether it follows lore, it probably doesn't, but the days where ZeniMax strictly followed the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe ended when they introduced the Crown Crates. Ban me if you will for this comment, but it is true.

Don't worry. The Crown Crates and any other lore infractions like it will be lost in the depths of time due to the chaos before Tiber Septim arrives to clean things up. None of the lore of this game survives (except perhaps in the memories of certain enduring entities like Daedric princes and the Tribunal) and that's a fitting end. Molag Bal's grand invasion fails...and is forgotten. Crown Crates? Vanish like they never happened.

SilverIce58 · February 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

arena25 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

My main is a Khajiit Templar and is also a vampire.

As far as whether it follows lore, it probably doesn't, but the days where ZeniMax strictly followed the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe ended when they introduced the Crown Crates. Ban me if you will for this comment, but it is true.

Don't worry. The Crown Crates and any other lore infractions like it will be lost in the depths of time due to the chaos before Tiber Septim arrives to clean things up. None of the lore of this game survives (except perhaps in the memories of certain enduring entities like Daedric princes and the Tribunal) and that's a fitting end. Molag Bal's grand invasion fails...and is forgotten. Crown Crates? Vanish like they never happened.

Just like how none of the rulers of each faction end up being the actual ruler of Tamriel...but they all do...I guess that's what happens when the dragon breaks.

starkerealm · February 2018

arena25 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

My main is a Khajiit Templar and is also a vampire.

As far as whether it follows lore, it probably doesn't, but the days where ZeniMax strictly followed the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe ended when they introduced the Crown Crates. Ban me if you will for this comment, but it is true.

In this case, the concept of a Templar Vampire predates ESO. Arch-Curate Vrythur kept the vast majority of his magical powers after being transformed into a vampire. Now, if you want to argue that Dawnguard makes no sense from a lore perspective, there's an argument with solid ground to stand on, but we can hardly blame ZOS for that.

veloSylraptor · February 2018

Another point that should be emphasized is that the class description themselves isn't really supported by anything in universe (even contradicted by the lore present in ESO). From 2 books found in ESO:

Ayleid Inscriptions translated by Raelys Anine:

"av latta magicka." or "from light, magic"

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Reference_Text

Magic from the Sky by Irlav Jarol (Mages Guild researcher at the arcane university):

"The stars are our links to the plane of Aetherius, the source of all magical power, and therefore, light from the stars is the most potent and exalted of all magical powers."

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic_from_the_Sky

There is also the Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd Edition by the Imperial Geographical Society

"The sources of magic are the many and diverse heavens beyond the void, collectively known as the Aetherius."

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Arena_Supermundus

Now, if we look at the Templar's Class description:

"These traveling knights call upon the powers of light and the burning sun to deal massive damage to their enemies while restoring health, magicka, and stamina to their allies."

"call upon the powers of light" is practically meaningless, as this applies to literally ALL magicka based abilities, and that includes the shadow magics used by Nightblades and necromancy. (ok maybe not all? just in case I miss something)

"The burning sun" does not quite explain what it means as it may mean literally calling down the sun as the Nova skill descriptions mentioned, or simply a repetition of the first part.

What I would argue here is that the very vague Class Description is in fact, used mostly to easily describe what the class is about to people who are not educated scholars specializing in the study of magicka. While the description is sufficiently useful in conveying the Templar's characteristics, they in no way reflect the reality of how magicka works. Especially when its contradicted by in game sources who are actual magicka scholars, this seems to imply that the Class descriptions are the attempts of those educated scholars to explain to lay people about the Templar discipline without having to go through all the underlying knowledge required to explain it fully.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

veloSylraptor wrote: »

Another point that should be emphasized is that the class description themselves isn't really supported by anything in universe (even contradicted by the lore present in ESO). From 2 books found in ESO:

Ayleid Inscriptions translated by Raelys Anine:

"av latta magicka." or "from light, magic"

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid_Reference_Text

Magic from the Sky by Irlav Jarol (Mages Guild researcher at the arcane university):

"The stars are our links to the plane of Aetherius, the source of all magical power, and therefore, light from the stars is the most potent and exalted of all magical powers."

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic_from_the_Sky

There is also the Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd Edition by the Imperial Geographical Society

"The sources of magic are the many and diverse heavens beyond the void, collectively known as the Aetherius."

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Arena_Supermundus

Now, if we look at the Templar's Class description:

"These traveling knights call upon the powers of light and the burning sun to deal massive damage to their enemies while restoring health, magicka, and stamina to their allies."

"call upon the powers of light" is practically meaningless, as this applies to literally ALL magicka based abilities, and that includes the shadow magics used by Nightblades and necromancy. (ok maybe not all? just in case I miss something)

"The burning sun" does not quite explain what it means as it may mean literally calling down the sun as the Nova skill descriptions mentioned, or simply a repetition of the first part.

What I would argue here is that the very vague Class Description is in fact, used mostly to easily describe what the class is about to people who are not educated scholars specializing in the study of magicka. While the description is sufficiently useful in conveying the Templar's characteristics, they in no way reflect the reality of how magicka works. Especially when its contradicted by in game sources who are actual magicka scholars, this seems to imply that the Class descriptions are the attempts of those educated scholars to explain to lay people about the Templar discipline without having to go through all the underlying knowledge required to explain it fully.

I might agree with this if the class itself didn't represent a POSITION. Dragon Knights wield skills learned from the Akaviri and it was used extensively in the war with the Snow Devil invaders from Akavir. These are Knights at least derived from an Order and whose magical talents are from an organization if loosely. The same can be said of the Templars. Templars are actually part of the theme of the Imperial Army of which Stendarr is the primary deity. These Knights also are part of a theme and an order and while there are variations on the theme I believe it would be unfair to simply classify them as magic. Its true a mages guild researcher could just as easily know these and other skills but the acquisition of these skills in this specific order is a particular set of training peculiar to the Templar. The great irony of the game is that the way Templars have been designed they operate better as Vampires and I believe that is the part that most of us find distasteful. Its bad enough Templar is so clunky but in order to be a better character we have to wreck our theme too. You can dance around the issue all you want but this topic has been on the boards for years and it will keep coming up until ZoS takes a cold hard look at reinventing the Templar from the steaming pile it has become.

notimetocare · February 2018

aliyavana wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

Casting fire doesn't burn the user for example but in the case of holy magic I think it's just for the sake of gameplay because it's be a bummer to lock out a class out of awesome passives. Possibly the vampire suffers damage whilst casting it and requires willpower to cast while undead.

Its simple. No such thing as holy magic. Templars harness the power of the sun, Magnus. Which is simply to say, they use fire magic. Mortals cannot wield aedric power. What they have is stylized destruction, restoration, and alteration.

veloSylraptor · February 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I might agree with this if the class itself didn't represent a POSITION. Dragon Knights wield skills learned from the Akaviri and it was used extensively in the war with the Snow Devil invaders from Akavir. These are Knights at least derived from an Order and whose magical talents are from an organization if loosely. The same can be said of the Templars. Templars are actually part of the theme of the Imperial Army of which Stendarr is the primary deity. These Knights also are part of a theme and an order and while there are variations on the theme I believe it would be unfair to simply classify them as magic. Its true a mages guild researcher could just as easily know these and other skills but the acquisition of these skills in this specific order is a particular set of training peculiar to the Templar. The great irony of the game is that the way Templars have been designed they operate better as Vampires and I believe that is the part that most of us find distasteful. Its bad enough Templar is so clunky but in order to be a better character we have to wreck our theme too. You can dance around the issue all you want but this topic has been on the boards for years and it will keep coming up until ZoS takes a cold hard look at reinventing the Templar from the steaming pile it has become.

I do agree with you on the gameplay mechanics angle in that its a bit clunky that Templars really benefit from being a vampire. Considering the stereotype, we would expect to see more Templars at least somewhat conforming to that stereotype.

However, while the class may represent a theme, they do not represent individual people. Police officers have the stereotype (or at least expectation) to serve and protect people, but they may not conform to those expectation due to a variety of factors such as their own personality, the law they are supposed to enforce, or the government they are working for.

I suppose what I want to emphasize here is that people are people first, becoming a Templar doesn't erase someone's personality. I would further argue that being a Templar class (from a gameplay perspective) does not necessarily mean you are a Templar, only that you are proficient at Templar disciplines. You do not need to worship Stendarr, or indeed any of the divines to learn the Templar ways; All you need to do is convince someone who can teach them to you to teach you.

Baconlad · February 2018

Yeh you need to look at the magic schools as neutral. Unnafiliated with any deadric or Cedric influence.

Granted some magical abilities or even schools of magic may have been taught by certain deities. It does not mean that anyone can't use them. The spears for example, may have been taught by stendar, but it's really a for of recipe he created, others learned the recipe, and even a dark molag bal worshiper can use it.

As to what the spears are. The lore leans on templars being benders of light. They can bend and warp light to cause their enemies to be blinded, and even to envelope them in complete darkness so that they cannot attack outside of the darkness. It may all be a form of alteration. Manipulating light, the spears may just be a concentrated mass of light energy/ particles that allows them to use the spears to damage opponents.

This is in contrast to other summoned weapons in that bound weapons for example are actually weapons pulled into nirn FROM deadric realms. Where the spear are just light that was already on nirn, being bound together by alteration magics

NewBlacksmurf · February 2018

Same way a Templar is lore friendly.

OtarTheMad · February 2018

In Skyrim you found a Auri-El head priest that is a vampire, anything can happen.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

veloSylraptor wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I might agree with this if the class itself didn't represent a POSITION. Dragon Knights wield skills learned from the Akaviri and it was used extensively in the war with the Snow Devil invaders from Akavir. These are Knights at least derived from an Order and whose magical talents are from an organization if loosely. The same can be said of the Templars. Templars are actually part of the theme of the Imperial Army of which Stendarr is the primary deity. These Knights also are part of a theme and an order and while there are variations on the theme I believe it would be unfair to simply classify them as magic. Its true a mages guild researcher could just as easily know these and other skills but the acquisition of these skills in this specific order is a particular set of training peculiar to the Templar. The great irony of the game is that the way Templars have been designed they operate better as Vampires and I believe that is the part that most of us find distasteful. Its bad enough Templar is so clunky but in order to be a better character we have to wreck our theme too. You can dance around the issue all you want but this topic has been on the boards for years and it will keep coming up until ZoS takes a cold hard look at reinventing the Templar from the steaming pile it has become.

I do agree with you on the gameplay mechanics angle in that its a bit clunky that Templars really benefit from being a vampire. Considering the stereotype, we would expect to see more Templars at least somewhat conforming to that stereotype.

However, while the class may represent a theme, they do not represent individual people. Police officers have the stereotype (or at least expectation) to serve and protect people, but they may not conform to those expectation due to a variety of factors such as their own personality, the law they are supposed to enforce, or the government they are working for.

I suppose what I want to emphasize here is that people are people first, becoming a Templar doesn't erase someone's personality. I would further argue that being a Templar class (from a gameplay perspective) does not necessarily mean you are a Templar, only that you are proficient at Templar disciplines. You do not need to worship Stendarr, or indeed any of the divines to learn the Templar ways; All you need to do is convince someone who can teach them to you to teach you.

There's really two conversations going on here. My primary annoyance is the need that is filled by Vampirism to the benefit of the Templar class. I've got no problem with Templar Vampires I just have a problem with it being so desired precisely because the Templar class has a big gaping hole that Arnie can drive his hummer through. The entire theme of the class is wrecked when all the Templars you run across (more or less) are Vampires. They could solve this mechanical problem but they simply choose not to and I find it particularly ironic when the Templar class originally was the 'regenerating' class. Now that Templars have no cc to speak of, muted heals, muted attacks, and a clunky play style I frankly lost interest. One of my Templars only use is to heal on request and the other barely uses class skills (and is a Vampire which drives me nuts).

They could fix the Templar class but they choose not to. We should all go play Dragon Knight or Sorcerer or something else actually fun.

Sevalaricgirl · February 2018

My templar kitty is not a vampire or werewolf and never will be. Templars are the knights of Stendarr and my kitty takes it very seriously.

DoctorESO · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

A templar who's gone rogue. But that wouldn't explain why they continue to have access to Aedric Spear.

Velaethia · February 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

Hmm... my templar is a werewolf. Probably not the same issue because it's not undead. Although my headcannon is they aren't really a templar. They're more of a barbarian who channels their rage with magicka and is able to create the magical constructs, harm, or heal. Kind of a rage-mage theme I guess. The holy appearance is meh.

VaranisArano · February 2018

SilverIce58 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

arena25 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

My main is a Khajiit Templar and is also a vampire.

As far as whether it follows lore, it probably doesn't, but the days where ZeniMax strictly followed the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe ended when they introduced the Crown Crates. Ban me if you will for this comment, but it is true.

Don't worry. The Crown Crates and any other lore infractions like it will be lost in the depths of time due to the chaos before Tiber Septim arrives to clean things up. None of the lore of this game survives (except perhaps in the memories of certain enduring entities like Daedric princes and the Tribunal) and that's a fitting end. Molag Bal's grand invasion fails...and is forgotten. Crown Crates? Vanish like they never happened.

Just like how none of the rulers of each faction end up being the actual ruler of Tamriel...but they all do...I guess that's what happens when the dragon breaks.

Not exactly. Its implied that there was an succession of emperors, its just that none of them lasted long enough to leave a lasting impression in the history books.

Velaethia · February 2018

arena25 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

My main is a Khajiit Templar and is also a vampire.

As far as whether it follows lore, it probably doesn't, but the days where ZeniMax strictly followed the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe ended when they introduced the Crown Crates. Ban me if you will for this comment, but it is true.

Crown crates have literally nothing to do with the lore at all though. They're a gameplay mechanic.

starkerealm · February 2018

Velaethia wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

Hmm... my templar is a werewolf. Probably not the same issue because it's not undead. Although my headcannon is they aren't really a templar. They're more of a barbarian who channels their rage with magicka and is able to create the magical constructs, harm, or heal. Kind of a rage-mage theme I guess. The holy appearance is meh.

Stendarr's not too fond of Werewolves either. Probably because of the daedric influence. That said, as has been stated over, and over, the Templars are just mages practicing their unique brand of magic, rather than true holy warriors whoa re dependent upon their god's blessing to function.

SamaelHQ · February 2018

Come on guys, be thankful. At least there aren't any Vampire & Werewolf hybrids...

starkerealm · February 2018

Mauhulakh wrote: »

Come on guys, be thankful. At least there aren't any Vampire & Werewolf hybrids...

There used to be. I met one once. Fortunately, they're now extinct.