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How is a Templar Vampire lore friendly?

  • mb10
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    I legit dont make any templars, vampires for that reason.

    The healing is related to Stendarr which is like the complete opposite of vampirism. So lore breaking :D
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  • clocksstoppe
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    Because game mechanics > lore as priority
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  • red_emu
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    Vampires are ugly as hell anyway. No way on earth would I put any of my beautiful characters through this!
    PC - EU:
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    Falathren - AD StamSorc
    Falathren Eryndaer - AD StamDen
    Falathren Irimion - AD MagPlar
    Talagan Falathren - AD StamDK
    Falathren Infernis - AD MagDK
    Your-Ex - AD MagBlade
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  • VaranisArano
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    My Oblivion and Skyrim vampires used restoration and destruction magic just fine (never made a vampire in Morrowind). So from a traditional schools of magic approach, I have no problem with templars continuing to heal and throw around fire while being vampires.
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  • Myrrah
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    Knowledge wrote: »
    Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

    story depth. What is more poignant than a warrior of the light being turned against their will-into a creature of the night? Then comes the whole internal battle of being this thing they don't like/are sworn to eliminate so now that external battle has become internal for them and by being internal-takes on more meaning and significance than the rather shallow hard lines people perceive between this person being of the light and this one being of the dark. it's not usually so simplistic. (my templar vampire doesn't use her vampire skills. other than the passives and is always vampire rank 4 because she won't eat anyone. in her early days she used them-for practical purposes-to get the points up. in the story in my head-that was going on as she learned how to control herself and the darkness within her until she could still serve the light)
    Edited by Myrrah on February 19, 2018 4:11PM
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  • Robo_Hobo
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    Templar abilities are taught by Resolutes of Stendarr to people willing to learn them, regardless of their faith or place in society, even if they're heretics. After someone has been taught the Templar abilities, if they turn into a vampire, they probably don't lose the knowledge of how to perform them. I doubt a Resolute of Templar would teach someone who is already a vampire though, because then they would be considered one of the Four Abominations (undead).

    It's also possible that the abilities these Resolutes of Templar teach, are not actually in any way correlated with the Aedra, and one of them just found an old Ayleid light magic spellbook and started saying it was Aedric. I remember reading that from an old reddit post, that there are some ayleid lettering in some of the templar ability animations.

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  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    Knowledge wrote: »
    Can someone explain to me the lore justification for a Templar being a Vampire? Please, I know it's "just a game" and we can "do whatever our little hearts desire" but I really would like to know how it would fit into the lore, if at all.

    I simply hate how being a Vampire is the best option to being a Templar. That's the real kicker for me.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
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  • Aliyavana
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    mb10 wrote: »
    I legit dont make any templars, vampires for that reason.

    The healing is related to Stendarr which is like the complete opposite of vampirism. So lore breaking :D

    id imagine that like magic the light is available to you to use as a tool but id imagine a vampire would harm themselves while casting the light so that it requires nice willpower to do so.
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  • rynth
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    you have to use your imagination not think of the class "Templar" as some holy fighter for good. For role play reasons I have an undead Templar that is an unholy knight to Molag. Since ZOS does not have any "evil" classes it is up to us to define the class as we see fit. Perhaps if we had more "evil" classes **cough** necromancer **cough** or more "evil" skill lines for say something like....oh I don't know something raising the dead to fight for you...can't remember **cough** necromancer **cough** name I'm trying to think of, but I'm sure **cough** necromancer **cough** it'll come to me some time later.
    When asked what he would do for a Klondike bar. Grand Moff Tarkin said "why I would blow up Alderaan."
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  • SilverIce58
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    klowdy1 wrote: »
    Because isn't it just a huge slap in the face to turn the one hunting you into the thing they are hunting?

    Ironically enough, the Dawnguard of the 2nd Era are believed by many to have been swayed by the power of the vampire they were guarding, and became vampires themselves. Whether that's actually how the DG fell out or not is wild speculation.
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  • cyclonus11
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    .
    Edited by cyclonus11 on February 19, 2018 6:33PM
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  • dodgehopper_ESO
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    Because game mechanics > lore as priority

    They really aren't though. My beef with the combination is that the combination itself is too good and has always been so. Game mechanics are being abused in this regard.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
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  • Silver_Strider
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    Well, as a Vampire you only denounce Arkay, not Stendarr, who's the one attributed for giving Templars their abilities.

    Are you still fighting in Stendarr's name? If so, why would he strip you of your powers, especially when he can always get another one of his multitude of servants to wipe you out after you've done your fill of Mercy Slayings?

    He's the God of Mercy, would seem cruel of him to just steal your powers when there's so much good you can still do.
    Argonian forever
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  • Twenty0zTsunami
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    Well, as a Vampire you only denounce Arkay, not Stendarr, who's the one attributed for giving Templars their abilities.

    Are you still fighting in Stendarr's name? If so, why would he strip you of your powers, especially when he can always get another one of his multitude of servants to wipe you out after you've done your fill of Mercy Slayings?

    He's the God of Mercy, would seem cruel of him to just steal your powers when there's so much good you can still do.

    Others have explained that it's established by the lore that the templar abilities are not granted from the divine source. They are just utilizing normal schools of magic, to their own specific ends. It's not like in d&d where if you forsake the domain of your deity you're no longer a paladin.
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  • 7788b14_ESO
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    All of my characters are either Vamps or Weres, except for my Templar.
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  • VaranisArano
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    Well, as a Vampire you only denounce Arkay, not Stendarr, who's the one attributed for giving Templars their abilities.

    Are you still fighting in Stendarr's name? If so, why would he strip you of your powers, especially when he can always get another one of his multitude of servants to wipe you out after you've done your fill of Mercy Slayings?

    He's the God of Mercy, would seem cruel of him to just steal your powers when there's so much good you can still do.

    Have you played the Knights of the Nine expansion for TES IV: Oblivion? Stendarr may be good, but he is not nice.
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  • JJBoomer
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    Simple solution here.

    Stick to your own lore lane.

    how one person interacts with the lore is not going to be the same as everyone else. also the very nature of fictional universes, as is the ES universe, pretty much demands that it is ever changing. Maybe someone found a way to make templar vamps lore friendly.

    How that possibly affects your game I can't even begin to imagine honestly. A lot of mental gymnastics required there. From a simple and practical mmo pov, they have to allow mix and matching, regardless of lore. Because limitation and restriction for a game like this would be signing it's death warrant.
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  • Twenty0zTsunami
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    JJBoomer wrote: »
    Simple solution here.

    Because limitation and restriction for a game like this would be signing it's death warrant.


    At this point, yes; but I think those types of designations are fully acceptable and enhance the feel of an online fantasy world.


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  • KanedaSyndrome
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    There's no choice not to be a vampire if you want to be somewhat competitive in the game. There's no alternative "good" skill line with good passives.
    KanedaSyndrome's Suggestions For Game Improvements
    The Fortuitous Collapse of the Wave Equation
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  • iiYuki
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    TBH the amount of vampires running around cities and the world is lore breaking considering "vampires are a menace" except the player character to NPC's.
    You can even help Mel Adrys hunt vampires as a vampire despite the fact he absolutely hates vampires and even tells you he would kill you with no hesitation if you were even enthralled by one, nevermind infected.
    I honestly dont think the ability to infect other players and the ca$h store infections was a good idea, the fact you can't go anywhere without seeing 20 vampires crowded around the Undaunted hubs or in trader hubs annoys me more than the loss of infecting people would.
    I think infections if they had to stay should have been on a set day of the month only every month or a really low chance on fighting vampires to keep it unique and cool, I remember my first vampire character and it was cool getting whispers asking if you were a vampire and how did you get infected and having such a "unique power" that you felt like a keeper of secrets.
    "Play how you want... unless its not how we intended you to play in which case we'll nerf it".
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  • Knowledge
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    sca
    iiYuki wrote: »
    TBH the amount of vampires running around cities and the world is lore breaking considering "vampires are a menace" except the player character to NPC's.
    You can even help Mel Adrys hunt vampires as a vampire despite the fact he absolutely hates vampires and even tells you he would kill you with no hesitation if you were even enthralled by one, nevermind infected.
    I honestly dont think the ability to infect other players and the ca$h store infections was a good idea, the fact you can't go anywhere without seeing 20 vampires crowded around the Undaunted hubs or in trader hubs annoys me more than the loss of infecting people would.
    I think infections if they had to stay should have been on a set day of the month only every month or a really low chance on fighting vampires to keep it unique and cool, I remember my first vampire character and it was cool getting whispers asking if you were a vampire and how did you get infected and having such a "unique power" that you felt like a keeper of secrets.

    There needs to be a greater amount of penalty for being one. Maybe you run slower during the day time or have reduced stats. Something to discourage EVERYONE from being a vampire. Or simply remove things like Supernatural Recovery (10% regen for stam+magicka).
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  • ParaNostram
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    Your powers aren't actually coming from the gods, they're spells like any other. Being a vampire does not effect the magic you can wield, only how spells effect you.
    "Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."

    Para Nostram
    Bosmer Sorceress
    Witch of Evermore

    "Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
    Order of the Black Worm
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  • starkerealm
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    Well, as a Vampire you only denounce Arkay, not Stendarr, who's the one attributed for giving Templars their abilities.

    Are you still fighting in Stendarr's name? If so, why would he strip you of your powers, especially when he can always get another one of his multitude of servants to wipe you out after you've done your fill of Mercy Slayings?

    He's the God of Mercy, would seem cruel of him to just steal your powers when there's so much good you can still do.

    Have you played the Knights of the Nine expansion for TES IV: Oblivion? Stendarr may be good, but he is not nice.

    Have you played The Elder Scrolls? None of the Aedra, or Daedra, are nice. :P

    Though, it is kinda amusing you single out Kot9, because that's the release where Meridia is the Daedra pulling strings behind the scenes.

    I mean, to be fair, there are a few Aedra you could probably make an argument for. Mara and Dibella come to mind. But, the Aedra and Daedra really do exist outside easily categorized morality, when you get down to it. Some are more dangerous, unpredictable, and destructive than others, but they don't really slot into convenient Good vs Evil dynamics.
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  • starkerealm
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    Your powers aren't actually coming from the gods, they're spells like any other. Being a vampire does not effect the magic you can wield, only how spells effect you.

    Yeah, this is the important context. This isn't like D&D where clerics (and other divine casters) receive their powers directly from their deities, they're using magic, the same as everyone else.
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  • VaranisArano
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    Well, as a Vampire you only denounce Arkay, not Stendarr, who's the one attributed for giving Templars their abilities.

    Are you still fighting in Stendarr's name? If so, why would he strip you of your powers, especially when he can always get another one of his multitude of servants to wipe you out after you've done your fill of Mercy Slayings?

    He's the God of Mercy, would seem cruel of him to just steal your powers when there's so much good you can still do.

    Have you played the Knights of the Nine expansion for TES IV: Oblivion? Stendarr may be good, but he is not nice.

    Have you played The Elder Scrolls? None of the Aedra, or Daedra, are nice. :P

    Though, it is kinda amusing you single out Kot9, because that's the release where Meridia is the Daedra pulling strings behind the scenes.

    I mean, to be fair, there are a few Aedra you could probably make an argument for. Mara and Dibella come to mind. But, the Aedra and Daedra really do exist outside easily categorized morality, when you get down to it. Some are more dangerous, unpredictable, and destructive than others, but they don't really slot into convenient Good vs Evil dynamics.

    I singled out Stendarr in the Knights of the Nine, because I was responding to a comment calling Stendarr the God of Mercy and suggesting that Stendarr would surely not be so cruel as to remove the powers he gave a templar if said templar became a vampire.

    Given that in KotN, Stendarr
    curses multiple generations of a knight's family with a debilitating curse/illness because said knight struck and killed a beggar while wearing the gloves of Stendarr, even though the family members had nothing to do with it AND releasing them from the curse requires someone else taking up the curse with no guarantee it won't get passed on to their family members in turn...
    I've got no problems believing that Stendarr could be so cruel. Or not, as his whim took him.

    Stendarr is good, but not nice. (Which is true, as you say, of most of the TES gods, but I was specifically speaking of Stendarr because that was the conversation I was taking part in.)
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  • Merlin13KAGL
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    Probably much the same way a Priestest of Arkay acquired it in the first place.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
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  • Silver_Strider
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    Well, as a Vampire you only denounce Arkay, not Stendarr, who's the one attributed for giving Templars their abilities.

    Are you still fighting in Stendarr's name? If so, why would he strip you of your powers, especially when he can always get another one of his multitude of servants to wipe you out after you've done your fill of Mercy Slayings?

    He's the God of Mercy, would seem cruel of him to just steal your powers when there's so much good you can still do.

    Have you played the Knights of the Nine expansion for TES IV: Oblivion? Stendarr may be good, but he is not nice.

    I have played it and while Stendarr did curse that one family line, you were still able to lift the curse eventually. I see no real difference here since you're still helping people and fighting off daedra and the like.
    Argonian forever
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  • Luigi_Vampa
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    There is a book in game doubting that the Templars abilities are from Stendarr or divine at all. It could be that it is just ordinary magic shaped to look divine.

    Similarly there is a book in game stating that the dragonknights flame abilites are just destruction magic made to look fancy.

    I'm too lazy to find the books at the moment.
    Edited by Luigi_Vampa on February 20, 2018 8:39PM
    PC/EU DC
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  • Knowledge
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    There is a book in game doubting that the Templars abilities are from Stendarr or divine at all. It could be that it is just ordinary magic shaped to look divine.

    Similarly there is a book in game stating that the dragonknights flame abilites are just destruction magic made to look fancy.

    I'm too lazy to find the books at the moment.

    Until you find them we have to assume they don't exist.
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  • VaranisArano
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    There is a book in game doubting that the Templars abilities are from Stendarr or divine at all. It could be that it is just ordinary magic shaped to look divine.

    Similarly there is a book in game stating that the dragonknights flame abilites are just destruction magic made to look fancy.

    I'm too lazy to find the books at the moment.
    Knowledge wrote: »

    Until you find them we have to assume they don't exist.

    Fortunately for you lazy louts, I like the lore and the UESP is easy to look up books.

    Dragonknight book: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ardent_Flame:_Draconic_or_Endemic?

    Templar abilities are from Stendarr book: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Aura_of_the_Righteous
    Templar abilities (at least the healing ones) are Stendarr's gifts made into spells that can be used by anyone book: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Rituals_of_the_Harmonious_Masters

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