Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Hey all. Yolo here,

So there have been several recent heated discussions concerning vet dungeon difficulty, low-CP players getting kicked from groups, players queuing for difficult dungeons without understanding the basic mechanics, etc. Besides for the usual finger pointing and elitism, there were a few good points that surfaced out of these discussions.

• Vet dungeons vary wildly in difficulty and it is frustrating for a new player to determine if their individual skill level is adequate for the dungeon they just queued for.
• CP is a very poor measure of someone's ability to perform their role well in a vet dungeon.
• Normal Versions of Vet dungeons DO NOT prepare new players for the vet versions as some of the mechanics are missing or can be healed/DPS'ed through.
• No training or rating system exists for vet dungeons. There is a steep learning curve for some of them and experienced players may not have the time or patience to walk someone through an extremely difficult dungeon, especially over group chat.

Ultimately, it falls on ZOS to create an environment where newer players can learn and better themselves without such a steep curve but failing that, perhaps the community could help.


I propose we create a rating system for vet dungeons and measure each one objectively.


Other games have build in difficulty ratings and I feel its important for new player retention that they know whether they are queuing for the dungeon equivalent of "Through the Fire and Flames."

Here is a mock-up of what it might look like: Note that for now I am considering the difficulty of the dungeon as a whole and not the difficulty of individual roles.


The second part would be to create a standard for measuring the difficulty of these dungeons from the perspective of a new player. Note the bolded part. If you come into this thread to tell everyone that X dungeon should be rated easier because your build can solo it, well have fun with your proc set nerfs =p.

Keeping the experience of a new player in mind, this is how I would create the scale.

1. Skull: Base level of difficulty. No real one shot mechanics that aren't avoidable or tauntable. Mechanics are non-lethal (or healable) if ignored. Dungeon has no lethal DPS checks.
2. Skulls: Moderate difficulty. Some mechanics must be followed avoid wipe or one shot but they are easy to understand and execute.
3. Skulls: Hard difficulty. At least one boss with a complex mechanic, kill order or special instructions that must be followed to avoid wipe. Moderate DPS check. Untauntable one shots or heavy AOE damage mechanic.
4. Skulls: Extreme difficulty. Contains complex mechanics or requires complex strategies (that are difficult to explain over text) that must be followed precisely to prevent a wipe. Contains a strong DPS check that results in wipe.

• How would you rate the dungeons to better inform new players?
• Do you agree with my assessments?

If you have any suggestions on how to improve my skull scale (again ONLY from the perspective of a new player) or you want to take the time and post your own assessment of each vet dungeons's difficulty, please do so on the comments. I will edit this with any helpful suggestions after sufficient feedback.

+1 for the band listed

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Why 1-4 skulls? Why not 5? Seems like it would be more specific and more widely understood, as most things that are rated by this sort of system are either 3 or 5. Not sure why you choose 4. Otherwise this is a good suggestion.

I chose 4 because I was trying to keep it simple. I understand that many systems are out of 5 or 10. I don't want just an arbitrary number system where a higher number is just someone's opinion of more difficulty.

I wanted to really dissect WHY some dungeons are harder for new players than others. So that it is easy to categorize dungeons by mechanics.

• If you can burn through it without knowing mechanics - level 1
• If the mechanics are simple but you have to do them - level 2
• If the mechanics are harder and there is a moderate DPS check or untauntable onshot - level 3
• If the mechanics are BOTH complex AND critical or there is a severe DPS check - level 4

Lets use a few examples.

City of Ash 1 is a great example of a level 1 dungeon. There are mechanics, but they can be ignored. Just stay out of red and you are golden. Last boss puts a 45k dot on you that you have to jump in the water to extinguish. However, I can just spam BoL and heal through it. Sometimes my pugs don't even know its on them till the boss dies and I stop healing them and they drop dead as they try to loot. Its fun.

Wayrest Sewers is a good level 2 dungeon. Malubeth has one mechanic that WILL kill one player if two others don't run to the altars, but the fight is easy and the mechanic is easy to explain in group chat.

Level 3 is a bit more difficult to explain. This is the level were PUGs start not being able to complete.
I reserve for level three those dungeons that start to have moderate DPS checks or bosses that can 1shot players. Elden hollow II has simple mechanics like Wayrest but the last boss is a bit of a DPS check. If you don't DPS bogdan down fast enough, the floor fills with fire and the adds keep healing the boss. You can do all the mechanics correctly earlier (such as murklight) but if you don't have enough damage, you wont complete. Also in this tier are bosses that dump aggro and can one shot players. Tempest Island would be a two skull dungeon but the last boss hits light armor for 24k and most pugs spend that last fight dead as the mist makes it really hard to revive.

And finally with level 4, this is reserved for dungeons with very tough DPS checks AND mechanics that are difficult to explain to new players that have to be performed precisely or it wipes you every time. Try explaining the 2nd White Gold Tower fight to a group of new players. There are too many ways to make mistakes that cause a wipe and its also a bit of a DPS test on top of that. The mechanics in all of the DLC dungeons are complex enough that you need a few experienced players and TS to walk a new person through it. Also, messing up a mechanic is usually a guaranteed wipe where you can usually recover from a mistake in levels 1-3.


So as I said, i would create 5 tiers if people are more comfortable with 5 tiers but I really don't see the need to because I really don't have enough categories for 5. It would just inflate the numbers and remove the precision of identifying what exactly makes some dungeons more difficult than others.

Obviously there is no way to make this completely objective and some of this will be personal opinion and that is fine. I just want to keep it as systematic as possible. So if you think a dungeon should be rated higher/lower than what i rated it, try to explain the mechanic that makes it that way. If you think there should be 5 levels, then explain what separates each level.

I liked your idea but people would still choose regardless of difficulty. Inexperienced and players with quest items should be locked out for veteran dungeons. There should be lock for those people without the veteran achievement. So they can form their own group or they can join with their experienced guildies or friends who teach and help them. I always help noobs but its tiresome after sometime. Im tired of explaining stuff to clueless people everyday on 3 diffrent dungeon. No one helped me for anything i googled tactics and crafted items and theorycrafted when i was noob and its not even hard im assure you playing without clue or decent gear is harder than that. And i think cp level is not the issue here i seen lots of 561 people who just doing light attacks or spamming dots on mobs every second i seen people who doesnt know how to dodge roll in veteran content couple times...Tho i completed hardest contents with low level or cp players its all about knowledge and real life skills. Thats why we need some sorting system in dungeon finder or this prejiduce againts low levels will never end. Because i dont have the time or patience teaching everyone i meet in dungeon finder. Occasionally its ok but dungeon finder only finds noobs.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3637398#Comment_3637398