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Animation Cancelling ('light-attack weaving')
Zheg
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Have we ever gotten word from ZOS on whether the ability to cancel animations and abuse the casting priority to put out burst dps is an intended mechanic (or an exploit?)?
Basic Attack < Ability < Bash
The above is the priority for casting, meaning you can start a heavy attack, immediately cast an ability and then bash and cancel the animations of the heavy attack and ability but still receive the damage for all 3 moves almost instantaneously. People have been using it for a while now, especially for trials, and have taken on referring to it as 'light-attack weaving' because it sounds less like an exploit.
I'm still on the fence myself for what I feel about it, though I tend to lean more towards exploit because the weighted weapon trait and NB skill Haste become jokingly obsolete with the existence of animation cancelling.
I can see why devs wouldn't want to put the abilities in a queue as that would make battles incredibly clunky, and I can see that any fixes to this would be significant dev work (and balancing since most of the high dps in trial groups comes from this), but why haven't we had a response from the devs on their stance yet (so far that I can see)?
EDIT: official response is that this is NOT an exploit, devs are aware of it and are working on how best to address it
Edited by Zheg on June 17, 2014 12:46AM Basic Attack < Ability < Bash
The above is the priority for casting, meaning you can start a heavy attack, immediately cast an ability and then bash and cancel the animations of the heavy attack and ability but still receive the damage for all 3 moves almost instantaneously. People have been using it for a while now, especially for trials, and have taken on referring to it as 'light-attack weaving' because it sounds less like an exploit.
I'm still on the fence myself for what I feel about it, though I tend to lean more towards exploit because the weighted weapon trait and NB skill Haste become jokingly obsolete with the existence of animation cancelling.
I can see why devs wouldn't want to put the abilities in a queue as that would make battles incredibly clunky, and I can see that any fixes to this would be significant dev work (and balancing since most of the high dps in trial groups comes from this), but why haven't we had a response from the devs on their stance yet (so far that I can see)?
EDIT: official response is that this is NOT an exploit, devs are aware of it and are working on how best to address it
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Adramelach✭✭✭I haven't seen or tried this yet, seems I've been missing out. As a sorcerer with staff, I'm thinking I don't have 'bash' - at least I've never used anything that called itself that.
However, are you saying that if I were to hold the mouse button down for a heavy attack, and while doing so, hit a key for say an instant spell, *both* would resolve immediately? The spell doesn't "wait" until the heavy finishes? I've just been waiting for the heavy to complete before casting, assuming it wouldn't proc until the heavy was done.
Once we're back up I'll test it out, but wow, I had no idea you could do that, actually.0 -
Venithar✭✭✭Adramelach wrote: »I haven't seen or tried this yet, seems I've been missing out. As a sorcerer with staff, I'm thinking I don't have 'bash' - at least I've never used anything that called itself that.
However, are you saying that if I were to hold the mouse button down for a heavy attack, and while doing so, hit a key for say an instant spell, *both* would resolve immediately? The spell doesn't "wait" until the heavy finishes? I've just been waiting for the heavy to complete before casting, assuming it wouldn't proc until the heavy was done.
Once we're back up I'll test it out, but wow, I had no idea you could do that, actually.
This is exactly what he is saying, and sorcs can use something else. I would love to tell you more, but until ZOS tells us if this is an exploit or not, I'm not in the mood to get in trouble.0 -
Blud✭✭✭✭✭It's not going to be an exploit.
Are they going to ban people for doing this? No.
Is there any way they can control human behavior if the game mechanics allow it? No.
Is it possible for them to do something about it from a technical standpoint? Highly doubtful for two reasons (a) probably they are not capable, and (b) they are swamped and have a lot of other stuff to fix. Have they ever fixed something without breaking something else?
Edited by Blud on June 16, 2014 1:16PM3 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭Doing this well is a skill in itself so therefore not an exploit. macroing it all into one button press would be an exploit.
I tend to find the ones who complain about this are the ones not able to do it successfully4 -
Venithar✭✭✭Hilgara, I can do it consistently with crystal shards, but the point is, I personally would consider it an exploit considering the animation is actually there to act as a cooldown, otherwise there would be no need for the animation at all. Also, using this negates the cast time of crystal shards and other skills, which ofc means it is unintentional, no matter how much you wish it was.2
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Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Doing this well is a skill in itself so therefore not an exploit. macroing it all into one button press would be an exploit.
I tend to find the ones who complain about this are the ones not able to do it successfully
The reason I said I'm on the fence about it is because it does require some element of timing and 'skill', but again, I tend to lean more towards the exploit side not because I can't do it, but because it completely invalidates the attack speed mechanic you get from the weighted weapon trait and Haste - what should have been a major NB skill if it wasn't so broken and animation cancelling didn't entirely invalidate it.
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Asasinka✭✭✭i use animation cancelling for my NB
Ambush / cancel / Ambush / cancel / Ambush / cancel / Flurry / cancel
because spell duration times suck for fast attackers
I'm fighting for a higher purpose2 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭i use animation cancelling for my NB
Ambush / cancel / Ambush / cancel / Ambush / cancel / Flurry / cancel
because spell duration times suck for fast attackers
Why would you do that? Ambush gives a bonus to the following damage so why not make it something that hits hard. Better would be Ambush, cloak (for the crit) surprise attack (30% damage + 100% crit + stun) light attack clipped by ability. Then just weave in clipped light attacks and cloak to get the crit.2 -
Rev Rielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭They, Zenimax, know about this and are looking in to it.
If you can be anything, be kind.0 -
Asasinka✭✭✭i use animation cancelling for my NB
Ambush / cancel / Ambush / cancel / Ambush / cancel / Flurry / cancel
because spell duration times suck for fast attackers
Why would you do that? Ambush gives a bonus to the following damage so why not make it something that hits hard. Better would be Ambush, cloak (for the crit) surprise attack (30% damage + 100% crit + stun) light attack clipped by ability. Then just weave in clipped light attacks and cloak to get the crit.
thanks for the tip
I didn't take much time studying game mechanics, also i sometimes don't understand the skill descriptions because i thought that just next attack with ambush will grant me extra damage, not any attack.I'm fighting for a higher purpose0 -
jambam817_ESO✭✭✭I must be playing this game wrong then
I've never done this, at least not intentionally that i can remember.
The battle system itself is so clunky though. After playing a 2handed character for a while instead of a caster, the amount of times my attacks don't register is appalling. I will be clicking the button and nothing happens, its so annoying. happened a lot this weekend.
I'm about to go back to just being a caster....0 -
Vuron✭✭✭✭✭Doing this well is a skill in itself so therefore not an exploit. macroing it all into one button press would be an exploit.
I tend to find the ones who complain about this are the ones not able to do it successfully
The reason I said I'm on the fence about it is because it does require some element of timing and 'skill', but again, I tend to lean more towards the exploit side not because I can't do it, but because it completely invalidates the attack speed mechanic you get from the weighted weapon trait and Haste - what should have been a major NB skill if it wasn't so broken and animation cancelling didn't entirely invalidate it.
This is not entirely true. Weighted and Haste do not work by speeding up animations. They work by reducing the minimum time allowed between basic weapon attacks. You can do a rotation of light attack/spell/block and will notice that you can't immediately begin another rotation because your light attack will not fire off.
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Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This is not entirely true. Weighted and Haste do not work by speeding up animations. They work by reducing the minimum time allowed between basic weapon attacks. You can do a rotation of light attack/spell/block and will notice that you can't immediately begin another rotation because your light attack will not fire off.
Right, the reason why I said "if it wasn't so broken". I know how the attack speed is currently working in ESO, but pop haste, put on a weighted 2H and spam light attacks and you'll see hardly any gain for your efforts. The mechanic "should" be speeding up weapon attack animations imo, even though it's some bogus reduce the ~1 sec delay between attacks.0 -
Aeradon✭✭✭✭✭Do it well and you can wipe the floor with the mob within few seconds. The post nerf stamina cost punishes you though.People keep telling me they're gonna buy me an ale. They never do.
There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's culture. And the Elves.
Help make this compilation complete!
Compilation of Ideas and Suggestions0 -
hk11✭✭✭✭I dont think it's an exploit. Maybe not working as intended but melee classes need it just to eek by.0
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ferzalrwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭This works ok if you don't have any lag and if stuff doesn't just miss for no apparent reason. I understand sometimes you have a miss chance due to debuffs but is there a base miss chance? If so, some feedback on missing other than a big fat sword passing through an NPC body without connecting might be good. I've noticed players (and my own character) doing a dodge animation occasionally (when I haven't got a dodge/evasion buff on) so I've been assuming that was a miss debuff on the attacker.
It's hard to know what's intended and what's bug with the lack of feedback this game gives sometimes.0 -
drogon1✭✭✭✭Imho "light attack weaving" (lol makes it sound so legitimate) needs to be fixed (removed), and probably eventually will be. It's basically gaming poorly implemented gameplay mechanics. The majority of players will have no clue about this, and will be at an unintended disadvantage against those who do.
I'm trying to recall the last MMO I played that had the exact problem which was eventually removed from game. Anyone recall it? I want to say Neverwinter Online, but this may be incorrect.Edited by drogon1 on June 16, 2014 2:27PM1 -
psufan5✭✭✭✭Imho "light attack weaving" (lol makes it sound so legitimate) needs to be fixed (removed), and probably eventually will be. It's basically gaming poorly implemented gameplay mechanics.
I'm trying to recall the last MMO I played that had the exact problem which was eventually removed from game. Anyone recall it? I want to say Neverwinter Online, but this may be incorrect.
DCUO was terrible with this.
Surgical Incision
Former Emperor
USPS40 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭jambam817_ESO wrote: »I must be playing this game wrong then I've never done this, at least not intentionally that i can remember.
The battle system itself is so clunky though. After playing a 2handed character for a while instead of a caster, the amount of times my attacks don't register is appalling. I will be clicking the button and nothing happens, its so annoying. happened a lot this weekend.
I'm about to go back to just being a caster....
About the hits not registering....Light Heavy Attacks I assume. Yes this happens to me ALL the time. The reason I have found out why and it is COMPETELY stupid. Its because your target isn't highlighted or "selected" for the attack.
GO FIGURE.0 -
ShADoW0s✭✭✭I dont know how they will fix this. If they remove it and leave the combat system as it currently is then its gonna cause problem, because it will make the combat even more unresponsive, if they add an internal cooldown.1
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Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Have we ever gotten word from ZOS on whether the ability to cancel animations and abuse the casting priority to put out burst dps is an intended mechanic (or an exploit?)?
Basic Attack < Ability < Bash
The above is the priority for casting, meaning you can start a heavy attack, immediately cast an ability and then bash and cancel the animations of the heavy attack and ability but still receive the damage for all 3 moves almost instantaneously. People have been using it for a while now, especially for trials, and have taken on referring to it as 'light-attack weaving' because it sounds less like an exploit.
I'm still on the fence myself for what I feel about it, though I tend to lean more towards exploit because the weighted weapon trait and NB skill Haste become jokingly obsolete with the existence of animation cancelling.
I can see why devs wouldn't want to put the abilities in a queue as that would make battles incredibly clunky, and I can see that any fixes to this would be significant dev work (and balancing since most of the high dps in trial groups comes from this), but why haven't we had a response from the devs on their stance yet (so far that I can see)?
Melee is completely Busted all the way around players developed this to try to make it viable . unfortunately its now translating to magica based cater builds too. this game is so damn broken in end game trials and VR content its pretty aplha early beta maybe. this is why you hire outside MMO testing companies to handle your end game testing not your friends and family and meta guilds. Its industry standard to launch like this though. Nothing new here just move along unsub for 90 days and return to see if they fixed the issues. if at 6 months they dont have it balanced and true end game activites. you can pretty much bet this game will be going freemium or F2P. at this point my advice to ZOS is to hire Trion to come in and clean this game up. that company acts fast and is very good at fixing game breaking im balances like we have with Melee < Magica. As well as implementing new content at a break neck pace.0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭I dont know how they will fix this. If they remove it and leave the combat system as it currently is then its gonna cause problem, because it will make the combat even more unresponsive, if they add an internal cooldown.
They can add an internal cool down if they allow things to que.1 -
Thechemicals✭✭✭✭✭as clunky as this game already is....people actually want to remove the limited form of clipping and chaining this game has.Vr14 Templar since release- dual resto
Vr14 Dk bow/2h
Brayan Blackthunder
Goddick
Daggerfall Covenant1 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭This already has an internal cooldown -- you can't weave a second light attack until the first one would have finished normally.
Removing the ability to cancel altogether would make combat feel even more unresponsive and clunky than it already is. The current situation isn't ideal, but the alternative would be worse.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade2 -
OkieDokie✭✭✭Might not be intended, but it isn't an exploit either.
Canceling light attacks with skills is something you start doing naturally in the same, you'll end up doing it in the same way if no one tell you what it is.
People keep saying they heard of a friend of friend of friend of their neighbors that plays a NB and can catch up with dks and sorcs and this guy just never shows up. He would be a rock star if he existed.1 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I agree that there's a real danger of fighting being waaay too clunky if they add in ICD or queue skills. Maybe the answer is to have cancelled animations do damage based on the % of the animation that occurred until you cancelled it. This might even lead to better gameplay since you'd get more out of your magicka/stamina by not button smashing.0 -
ArRashid✭✭✭✭It's an exploit.
This E F F I N G thing is responsible for more nerfs to DK than anything else. Just because some A-hole is exploiting this to get more dps, whole class is immediately viewed as OP (even though maybe 99% people don't even do this) and therefore nerfed. Hard. And repeatedly.
Since they haven't been able to fix the exploit, they'll just continue throwing in nerfs to everything else to compensate for a few jerks abusing it (aka pretty much every caster doing trials speed runs).0
