Why is epic gear no longer epic?

uberwolfe · June 2014

This is a beef I have with many MMOs not just specifically ESO, but it seems to be especially prevalent in this game..

Whatever happened to Epic gear that was actually true to its namesake? that being "Epic"..??

The difference between "normal gear" and "Epic gear" is literally several stat points.. this is incredibly boring and takes all the thrill out of what makes gear epic to begin with..

For example, a green dagger with an enchant may give +23 magicka.. then the epic version of the same dagger gives +25 magicka.. that's it? how incredibly boring...

This is also true for named weapons you may score from bosses or mobs inside dungeons. As an example I picked up Lord Rendang's Fiery Axe of Mortal Doom - sounds awesome right?

No.. the stats on this axe are: Deals 15 fire damage and decreases stamina cost of sprinting by 1%... how incredibly boring...

Why can't the epic gear actually proc something? like have the stats mentioned above but also have the chance to proc something awesome to make wielding that axe actually feel like you're wielding something epic.. even it's just a colourful particle effect... I don't care - anything that sets it apart...

To make matters worse, these named items are crafted to one of the many styles available through motifs, so you can craft a white-level axe that looks exactly the same.... I am yet to loot something that looks unique.

Yeah, I know there are sets of gear etc but they don't include weapons and in general what they do is incredibly boring like lessening sprint cost or increasing Mundus stone effect etc..

This is all fun for the first 20 levels or so but then it just gets incredibly - I'm gonna say it again - boring.

I love this game but more epicness and uniqueness to epic and legendary items please I beg you..!

Carnage2K4 · June 2014

I agree, many named weapons are just meh, they are essentially just regular weapons with a name... no special ability or enchantment... no special model, they are just shallow versions of something that might have been cool...

pecheckler · June 2014

I spent 32,000 gold making an artifact 2-handed sword for VR4 and the next day there was an equal-stat VR6 epic weapon for sale for for 900 gold. I thank the god damn anomaly farming that ruined the game economy for that.

hk11 · June 2014

casuals would be my guess

Bolo_Bob · June 2014

they probably take 1000 years or so to get decent/good.

nerevarine1138 · June 2014

pecheckler wrote: »

I spent 32,000 gold making an artifact 2-handed sword for VR4 and the next day there was an equal-stat VR6 epic weapon for sale for for 900 gold. I thank the god damn anomaly farming that ruined the game economy for that.

That sounds like you may have wasted a lot of money on the upgrade mats, because they weren't that expensive before the farming started.

In general, making full artifact-quality gear before you hit VR12 is a little pointless at this stage in the game. You're going to replace your gear many times between VR4 and VR12. No point in wasting the rarest upgrade mats on those in-between stages.

Carnage2K4 · June 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

In general, making full artifact-quality gear before you hit VR12 is a little pointless at this stage in the game. You're going to replace your gear many times between VR4 and VR12. No point in wasting the rarest upgrade mats on those in-between stages.

Thats what I figured, I never upgrade beyond uncommon, sitting on a nice stack of tempering alloy and grain solvent now.

khele23eb17_ESO · June 2014

The only 'epics' in ESO are certain sets. Not many, just a few. Like the warlock set which, regardless of quality or level, is just an awesome complement to any magicka build. Its a shame most of the sets arent this exciting.

Kiwi · June 2014

if youre looking for pantaloons of excreting rainbows you came to the wrong game

the increases have to be subtle otherwise it would throw the balance too far out and we would have to endure more crying over specific OP gear

AreoHotah · June 2014

pecheckler wrote: »

I spent 32,000 gold making an artifact 2-handed sword for VR4 and the next day there was an equal-stat VR6 epic weapon for sale for for 900 gold. I thank the god damn anomaly farming that ruined the game economy for that.

Lol he made a vr4 item legendary...

Tavore1138 · June 2014

The simple answer is that if items are too 'epic' they break the balance of encounters and PvP.

You get your +100 sword of death so player 2 demands a +120 Armour of Life and you go back to being bored so they make you a +150 Axe of SuperMegaDeath but player 2 now wants a +175 Shield of InYourFaceAxeBoy... and round and round.

So they try to provide interesting little quirky abilities that give you something to work with a build, some synergy with other items of a similar type... But never anything that will break that power curve.

Moiskormoimi · June 2014

They will cry, "We want epic cosmetics back in our mmo!!!"
And I will look down on them and declare, "No!"

Prince_Edward · June 2014

Next thing you know, we'll all have a couple hundred-thousand hp, riding around on rainbow dwarven spheres, followed by a mini-Molag Bal......

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

I spent 32,000 gold making an artifact 2-handed sword for VR4 and the next day there was an equal-stat VR6 epic weapon for sale for for 900 gold. I thank the god damn anomaly farming that ruined the game economy for that.

That sounds like you may have wasted a lot of money on the upgrade mats, because they weren't that expensive before the farming started.

In general, making full artifact-quality gear before you hit VR12 is a little pointless at this stage in the game. You're going to replace your gear many times between VR4 and VR12. No point in wasting the rarest upgrade mats on those in-between stages.

And when the next update comes out and the level cap rises to VR14, as it seems highly likely, VR12 'epic' gear will become hugely wasted.

Fact is, ZOS' intention seems to be a never-ending raising of the level cap so forget any idea of being able to get BIS and e-peen on that for umpteen months before the cap rises again.

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2014

for me the issue is just how common something called epic is in this game.

i don't mind being able to get the best gear easily.. especially conspired to how it was in my last MMO (where it could take years just to get one legendary for the average player). but it really devalues the meaning of the word "epic" or "rare" or "legendary" when everyone has it.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · June 2014

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

They will cry, "We want epic cosmetics back in our mmo!!!"
And I will look down on them and declare, "No!"

Someone knows his watchmen.

killedbyping · June 2014

I think that the main point of OP was that quality level are not differs that much betwin white/geen/blue/purple/yellow items. You really dont have that much of a pleasure when getting epic items over a blue because you know that the buff you recieve are silly.

I honestly think there are enought of "rare" items and it will be even more in the future. I dont know why you guys expect same ammount of epic "trunks of badassitude" like in WoW which was evalutaing for how long ? 10 years ? This game is just started and it do bring you new content with each major update. And this update happens much more frequently the in any other MMO.

Moiskormoimi · June 2014

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

They will cry, "We want epic cosmetics back in our mmo!!!"
And I will look down on them and declare, "No!"

Someone knows his watchmen.

Yes she does

Best line in the movie.

Hilgara · June 2014

I think they are trying to avoid too much power creep by keeping advancements very small. In veteran ranks there is very little difference between Vet 1 and Vet 12 and I think this is by design. Take WoW, there is a massive power difference between a well geared level 70 and a poorly geared level 70 and an even more massive power difference between each of the levels.

WoW became boring because killing a level 10 mob with a level 10 sword was no different from killing a level 70 mob with a level 70 sword.

ZoS is trying to implement some horizontal progression that requires you to maximise your skill to keep up with the mobs. You have more tools not necessarily more powerful tools so its up to you to find out what works.

Moiskormoimi · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

I think they are trying to avoid too much power creep by keeping advancements very small. In veteran ranks there is very little difference between Vet 1 and Vet 12 and I think this is by design. Take WoW, there is a massive power difference between a well geared level 70 and a poorly geared level 70 and an even more massive power difference between each of the levels.

WoW became boring because killing a level 10 mob with a level 10 sword was no different from killing a level 70 mob with a level 70 sword.

ZoS is trying to implement some horizontal progression that requires you to maximise your skill to keep up with the mobs. You have more tools not necessarily more powerful tools so its up to you to find out what works.

I don't think this was their intention but it was the result of shoddy design and lack of development. And I don't see how you can compare same level to same level killing.
Especially considering that in ESO, a level 1 sword works almost as well as a V12. Hell, my VR3 still has lvl 49 gear. This IS an issue. Players want to attach themselves to their characters and immerse themselves in the game. They want to feel that they've accomplished something...in some way or another. If I can wear greens from normal levels and still accomplish the same task at VR levels with relative ease, what's the incentive for me to even attempt to get anything new if it's all relative?

Blinks · June 2014

Kinda agree with you, I have x2 legendary v12 Daggers that do 141 Damage, id expect it higher being a legendary but would the game become unbalanced if they increased weapon damage and stats on EPIC +?

Animus0724 · June 2014

Weapon stats aside, armor actually has a different when you look at the combined stat difference between a full white set of armor and full gold set of armor, taking into account you use the same enchants and same traits on all pieces

Moiskormoimi · June 2014

Animus0724 wrote: »

Weapon stats aside, armor actually has a different when you look at the combined stat difference between a full white set of armor and full gold set of armor, taking into account you use the same enchants and same traits on all pieces

If your passives work correctly. Which a lot do not or don't apply fully.

Seroczynski · June 2014

When at levelcap, having each item that you equip do +2 (if compared with uncommon) is worth it. Things stack up, and ESO has no number inflation as many Blizzard games do, so these 14 points from armor do matter.

Crisscross · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

I think they are trying to avoid too much power creep by keeping advancements very small. In veteran ranks there is very little difference between Vet 1 and Vet 12 and I think this is by design.

Yes please. I hope to god that this is true and intended.

The idea of "Epic loot" belongs in games like Diablo and Borderlands. In action games such as that, there is a very real feeling of "fun" when legendary gear drops, due to the random factor of it and the open-endedness of their content. You can't have that in an MMO setting where you have instanced dungeons and rigid class synergies. In such a setting "Epic loot" merely becomes a content-gating carrot on a stick that promotes endless token grinding along a linear progression path.

I like MMOs that keep their gear stats down to earth, thus promoting more gameplay and less "Am I tall enough to go on this ride yet?" The stat increase is still enough for people to want, but not so great that it locks people out of content.

Moiskormoimi · June 2014

Seroczynski wrote: »

When at levelcap, having each item that you equip do +2 (if compared with uncommon) is worth it. Things stack up, and ESO has no number inflation as many Blizzard games do, so these 14 points from armor do matter.

For s & g's I made a vr rank 1 set full and a destro rank 1 staff. All unbuffed and went to greenshade to handle some mobs. Didn't die once. I'm a DW destro templar. I didn't even have to spot heal. If it truly mattered, then I would need VR 3 gear and weapons for a vr3 zone. The fact that I don't means that this game is significantly linear, and that's the op's point. The gear is meaningless if you can take crappy gear from anywhere and still get through content meant for higher leveled equipment.

Gilvoth · June 2014

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

I think they are trying to avoid too much power creep by keeping advancements very small. In veteran ranks there is very little difference between Vet 1 and Vet 12 and I think this is by design. Take WoW, there is a massive power difference between a well geared level 70 and a poorly geared level 70 and an even more massive power difference between each of the levels.

WoW became boring because killing a level 10 mob with a level 10 sword was no different from killing a level 70 mob with a level 70 sword.

ZoS is trying to implement some horizontal progression that requires you to maximise your skill to keep up with the mobs. You have more tools not necessarily more powerful tools so its up to you to find out what works.

I don't think this was their intention but it was the result of shoddy design and lack of development. And I don't see how you can compare same level to same level killing.
Especially considering that in ESO, a level 1 sword works almost as well as a V12. Hell, my VR3 still has lvl 49 gear. This IS an issue. Players want to attach themselves to their characters and immerse themselves in the game. They want to feel that they've accomplished something...in some way or another. If I can wear greens from normal levels and still accomplish the same task at VR levels with relative ease, what's the incentive for me to even attempt to get anything new if it's all relative?

i agree with you, infact i would like to also say that, when i was veteran 5 i was killing a vet 5 mobb and it took exactly 4 skill hits to kill it from sneak. now im vet 12 and have vet 12 weapons on the exact same mob (vet 5 mobb) and it takes exactly 3.5 hits instead of the 4 hits it took me when i was vet 5. to me thats pretty Lame and boring and is indeed proof that my weapon damage from vet 5 up to vet 12 only went up a very small amount. and btw i was using purple weapon daedric daggers.
in my opinion i should be able to 1 shot that vet 5 mobb now that im vet 12 but it is not the case.

note: i bet you that if my daggers were epic it would only increase from needing 3.5 hits to kill that vet 5 mobb to only needing 3.2 hits.

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

The ONLY game I have ever played where LOOT was "EPIC" was EQLive. That MIGHT be because you DID hold onto item for basically EVER. You really didn't get much gear in that game till toward the end when you started raiding and even then getting new gear was a blessing as 1 item would drop for 40+ people. AND gawd help you should your raid wipe EXPENSIVE in either money or time.

Seroczynski · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

The ONLY game I have ever played where LOOT was "EPIC" was EQLive. That MIGHT be because you DID hold onto item for basically EVER. You really didn't get much gear in that game till toward the end when you started raiding and even then getting new gear was a blessing as 1 item would drop for 40+ people. AND gawd help you should your raid wipe EXPENSIVE in either money or time.

These days everybody feels entitled to have the best items in-game, whether they play 'hardcore' or not. That's a serious problem for MMO developers, as they will get a lot of hate from the majority if they start making things 'unique'.

Shaun98ca2 · June 2014

Seroczynski wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

The ONLY game I have ever played where LOOT was "EPIC" was EQLive. That MIGHT be because you DID hold onto item for basically EVER. You really didn't get much gear in that game till toward the end when you started raiding and even then getting new gear was a blessing as 1 item would drop for 40+ people. AND gawd help you should your raid wipe EXPENSIVE in either money or time.

These days everybody feels entitled to have the best items in-game, whether they play 'hardcore' or not. That's a serious problem for MMO developers, as they will get a lot of hate from the majority if they start making things 'unique'.

I think so far the best game that had a GOOD balance for everybody was Rift. As a person who ran dugneons but didn't raid I got an opportunity at some VERY good gear I had to work VERY hard for. Raiders had better gear they had to also work very hard for but in all actuality it really wasn't THAT much better than mine just enough to show overall they WERE better.

Hilgara · June 2014

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

i agree with you, infact i would like to also say that, when i was veteran 5 i was killing a vet 5 mobb and it took exactly 4 skill hits to kill it from sneak. now im vet 12 and have vet 12 weapons on the exact same mob (vet 5 mobb) and it takes exactly 3.5 hits instead of the 4 hits it took me when i was vet 5. to me thats pretty damn Lame and boring and is indeed proof that my weapon damage from vet 5 up to vet 12 only went up a very small amount. and btw i was using purple weapon daedric daggers.
in my opinion i should be able to 1 shot that vet 5 mobb now that im vet 12 but it is not the case.

note: i bet you that if my daggers were epic it would only increase from needing 3.5 hits to kill that vet 5 mobb to only needing 3.2 hits.

I disagree with this entirely. This is the definition of power creep and it is the easy mode of game design. So your weapons don't hit much harder, but maybe you have abilities that make them hit faster, or a way to make your enemy more vulnerable before hitting them. It is no fun if you just pick a few skills and hack and slash your way for the entire game. There has to be something other than bigger mob + bigger dagger = win.
What happens if hitting the level 50 mob doesn't kill it the way it did at level 10? Then you have to start thinking. How can I compensate. What do I need to do other than whacking it with my mighty weapon.
This is one of the reasons people are struggling with the difficulty of this game. They are so used to always having a power curv that matches the mobs. This game doesn't. The mobs get more powerful in relation to you but you have more tools available to compensate. You just have to find the ones that work.

It just so happens that itemising isn't as precise as it should be so a lot of the options aren't viable (stamina builds) but I applaud their attempt to avoid the power creep vicious circle