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All this talk about failure revolves around bugs/balance, but, that's not really the problem
baronzilch
✭✭✭
Has it failed already? I hope not, I'm just starting to enjoy this game.
One thing I've noticed, though, is this team seems to have thought their (wonderful - and I mean that, the ES series is one of the best SP legacies ever) SP mechanics and reliance on lore would transfer directly over to an MMO - and it doesn't, never has in any MMO and never will. Especially when you factor in PvP which doesn't even exist in SP. I love immersion, but, this game isn't immersed, it's submerged.
The real problem is it's not a newb-friendly game at all. One of the least newb-friendly games I've seen in a while. The power-levellers and fanbois will be the loudest during beta/launch, in every beta/launch, but, the PLers also are the ones to blow through content and move on to the next game fastest after release - and the fanbois will fight tooth and nail for their genre with little regard to successful game mechanics. Devs everywhere should be more choosy in what advice they take from these two groups (PLers are primarily interested the end-game and fanbois are primarily interested in the lore/immersion). Neither group cares one iota about the newb/levelling experience of the masses or how to attract, and keep, a constant stream of new players.
You need a constant influx of newbs for the first six months (and really, forever) to, "make it big." In the long-term it needs to fun and easy to reroll. From the lack of an AH, the immensity of the combat, skill and crafting systems (which are poorly/incorrectly documented) to the obvious - and immediate - disdain for grinding all contribute to the newb/reroll unfriendliness. And, I'll add for a game that relies heavily on PvP for their long-term playability, how could it not be foreseen that going to Cyrodil at level 10 is pointless?
The starting zones are barren of grind spots and have far too much storyline set-up; even if they really want a game to be about immersion over levelling, that should be saved for higher levels (at least 10+, in this game probably 15+ as that's about when you can hit the third tier in your most used skill lines). Especially when so many class/weapon combos are available. Newbs need to be able to reroll as much as they want and get to a point where they can try out quite a few skills and gain an understanding for the playstyle of their build, quickly. That means getting to about 15 - solo - in a couple to a few hours, from day one of their subscription. If you want to slow things down, do it after this point.
With the complete focus on questing from the start and all the marvelous cutscenes/voice acting these early levels are amazing the first time through - but, only the first time through. After that, do I really need to see the story of the five superfriends every time I change toons? By the time a player gets to 15 he/she is almost afraid to start over. The newb experience goes from marvelous to tedious by about the third reroll.
It's very difficult to gear one's starter toons without a set of prior friends/higher alts to contribute (lack of AH); it's difficult to get through the early levels quickly (lack of early grind spots and the way-too-early focus on chained MOBs that require groups or - for many builds - non-existent early AOE skills); finding a build that you can develop a personal affinity with is difficult as there is no official skill info (that is up to date) and you basically pump two or maybe three skills for the first 10-20 hours of your gameplay while you watch the same "storylines" over and over. And the lack of level restricted BGs/campaigns gives the newb/reroller no hope of understanding how their build will perform in PvP, until it is too late.
Keep in mind, even for vets, once a player has finished the story arc, regardless of their preferred playstyle, the only thing left is the game mechanics and the love they have for their toon. If, at that point, they feel bored/underpowered/bugged with their class/race/build and it's too tedious to start over... they will just quit the game.
Lots of skills need fixing and classes need balancing - I get that - but, players will have more patience with these fixes, if it is easier/more fun to begin/reroll. So what if you have nothing but certain DK/Sorc builds running around until other skill lines are balanced/fixed... at least people will be having fun/feeling good with their toons and not afraid to start over when their preferred class/weapon combo is fixed. Players will also not be afraid to try many of the "underpowered" classes/skills en masse, and you will also be surprised at how quickly the 'usable' build count goes up as clever players innovate and improvise as they reroll often and quickly. If you want this game to be successful in the long run, the newb experience needs to be addressed asap.
Edited by baronzilch on June 13, 2014 6:49AM One thing I've noticed, though, is this team seems to have thought their (wonderful - and I mean that, the ES series is one of the best SP legacies ever) SP mechanics and reliance on lore would transfer directly over to an MMO - and it doesn't, never has in any MMO and never will. Especially when you factor in PvP which doesn't even exist in SP. I love immersion, but, this game isn't immersed, it's submerged.
The real problem is it's not a newb-friendly game at all. One of the least newb-friendly games I've seen in a while. The power-levellers and fanbois will be the loudest during beta/launch, in every beta/launch, but, the PLers also are the ones to blow through content and move on to the next game fastest after release - and the fanbois will fight tooth and nail for their genre with little regard to successful game mechanics. Devs everywhere should be more choosy in what advice they take from these two groups (PLers are primarily interested the end-game and fanbois are primarily interested in the lore/immersion). Neither group cares one iota about the newb/levelling experience of the masses or how to attract, and keep, a constant stream of new players.
You need a constant influx of newbs for the first six months (and really, forever) to, "make it big." In the long-term it needs to fun and easy to reroll. From the lack of an AH, the immensity of the combat, skill and crafting systems (which are poorly/incorrectly documented) to the obvious - and immediate - disdain for grinding all contribute to the newb/reroll unfriendliness. And, I'll add for a game that relies heavily on PvP for their long-term playability, how could it not be foreseen that going to Cyrodil at level 10 is pointless?
The starting zones are barren of grind spots and have far too much storyline set-up; even if they really want a game to be about immersion over levelling, that should be saved for higher levels (at least 10+, in this game probably 15+ as that's about when you can hit the third tier in your most used skill lines). Especially when so many class/weapon combos are available. Newbs need to be able to reroll as much as they want and get to a point where they can try out quite a few skills and gain an understanding for the playstyle of their build, quickly. That means getting to about 15 - solo - in a couple to a few hours, from day one of their subscription. If you want to slow things down, do it after this point.
With the complete focus on questing from the start and all the marvelous cutscenes/voice acting these early levels are amazing the first time through - but, only the first time through. After that, do I really need to see the story of the five superfriends every time I change toons? By the time a player gets to 15 he/she is almost afraid to start over. The newb experience goes from marvelous to tedious by about the third reroll.
It's very difficult to gear one's starter toons without a set of prior friends/higher alts to contribute (lack of AH); it's difficult to get through the early levels quickly (lack of early grind spots and the way-too-early focus on chained MOBs that require groups or - for many builds - non-existent early AOE skills); finding a build that you can develop a personal affinity with is difficult as there is no official skill info (that is up to date) and you basically pump two or maybe three skills for the first 10-20 hours of your gameplay while you watch the same "storylines" over and over. And the lack of level restricted BGs/campaigns gives the newb/reroller no hope of understanding how their build will perform in PvP, until it is too late.
Keep in mind, even for vets, once a player has finished the story arc, regardless of their preferred playstyle, the only thing left is the game mechanics and the love they have for their toon. If, at that point, they feel bored/underpowered/bugged with their class/race/build and it's too tedious to start over... they will just quit the game.
Lots of skills need fixing and classes need balancing - I get that - but, players will have more patience with these fixes, if it is easier/more fun to begin/reroll. So what if you have nothing but certain DK/Sorc builds running around until other skill lines are balanced/fixed... at least people will be having fun/feeling good with their toons and not afraid to start over when their preferred class/weapon combo is fixed. Players will also not be afraid to try many of the "underpowered" classes/skills en masse, and you will also be surprised at how quickly the 'usable' build count goes up as clever players innovate and improvise as they reroll often and quickly. If you want this game to be successful in the long run, the newb experience needs to be addressed asap.
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TheAmu✭✭✭On other MMOs I'd roll and alt because I wanted to see what the starting area for a different race/alliance/profession was like and what effect that had on the story/gaming experience.
In ESO this simple joy is rendered pointless by narrative dissonant VR "content".
In fact, the VR make everything you experienced up to that point utterly meaningless, as everything you achieved, everything you fought and died (many times) for is promptly erased/forgotten and you begin as though a stranger in a rival faction.
Zmax would find that people would get more joy out of their game if they were given more opportunities to discover and experience new things in a meaningful way instead of just as means to an end.6 -
Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭In ESO this simple joy is rendered pointless by narrative dissonant VR "content".
In fact, the VR make everything you experienced up to that point utterly meaningless, as everything you achieved, everything you fought and died (many times) for is promptly erased/forgotten and you begin as though a stranger in a rival faction.
Being saying this since before launch !
High Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !1 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭On other MMOs I'd roll and alt because I wanted to see what the starting area for a different race/alliance/profession was like and what effect that had on the story/gaming experience.
In ESO this simple joy is rendered pointless by narrative dissonant VR "content".
In fact, the VR make everything you experienced up to that point utterly meaningless, as everything you achieved, everything you fought and died (many times) for is promptly erased/forgotten and you begin as though a stranger in a rival faction.
Zmax would find that people would get more joy out of their game if they were given more opportunities to discover and experience new things in a meaningful way instead of just as means to an end.
They gave you an alternative Craglorn. Enjoy it.3 -
LordEcks✭✭✭The real problem is it's not a newb-friendly game at all. One of the least newb-friendly games I've seen in a while. The power-levellers and fanbois will be the loudest during beta/launch, in every beta/launch, but, the PLers also are the ones to blow through content and move on to the next game fastest after release - and the fanbois will fight tooth and nail for their genre with little regard to successful game mechanics.
The Elder Scrolls games have always had a fairly steep learning curve. They were never n00b friendly. Bethesda has made it easier and easier with each game, but the learning curve was notoriously high.
I agree with the rest of your post though.Edited by LordEcks on June 13, 2014 8:24AM0 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »On other MMOs I'd roll and alt because I wanted to see what the starting area for a different race/alliance/profession was like and what effect that had on the story/gaming experience.
In ESO this simple joy is rendered pointless by narrative dissonant VR "content".
In fact, the VR make everything you experienced up to that point utterly meaningless, as everything you achieved, everything you fought and died (many times) for is promptly erased/forgotten and you begin as though a stranger in a rival faction.
Zmax would find that people would get more joy out of their game if they were given more opportunities to discover and experience new things in a meaningful way instead of just as means to an end.
They gave you an alternative Craglorn. Enjoy it.
That would be an awesome response if all the skyshards gated in the stupid VR excuse for a 'story' were there. However, they are not so it turns out your response is whatever the opposite of awesome might be.3 -
baronzilch✭✭✭The Elder Scrolls games have always had a fairly steep learning curve. They were never n00b friendly. Bethesda has made it easier and easier with each game, but the learning curve was notoriously high.
That's part of the problem, that's Single Player thinking applied to an MMO. In SP the pace you progress at and build mistakes are inconsequential; in an MMO, especially one that has a PvP-centric end game your early pace and overall build choices become crucial.
Edited by baronzilch on June 13, 2014 8:46AM0 -
Dayv✭✭✭✭OP, I agree with some of what you're saying, but I still think bugs and balance are a bigger issue. It's tricky making a game newb-friendly and giving them a real taste of the classes as you mustn't overwhelm them or take away the anticipation of gaining new skills.
In my experience of all class based games I've played, I've always preferred my second character, but I think that's just Sod's law.0 -
baronzilch✭✭✭Just my two cents from some really long-term experience in MMOs. I've rerolled many times because I like to try out various combos before I settle in. It made me realize just how tedious the newb/reroll process is; I'm pretty stubborn and dedicated, but, the average person isn't and no longer has to be, with hundreds of MMO options out there.
- Balance is the least important right now (I'm sorry Templars in particular) because that is an ongoing issue for the life of any MMO. And balancing before bug fixing is a very bad idea, as fixed skills may then suddenly become OP in combo with the previously buffed skills increasing the need for more balance.
- Actual bugged skills are a priority (I'm looking at you NBs specifically), but, those fixes are time consuming and can cause new bugs (knock-ons) to appear. These have to be handled with patience, diligence and tested thoroughly.
- While an AH is time consuming to implement, a trade channel is not. And neither is drastically lowering the price of level 15 and below NPC vendor gears, that's just a few keystrokes in the DB. This would allow peeps to gear their toons more easily at low levels with build appropriate items. The only pitfall I can see is the amount of stuff received from deconstruction, but, NPC vendor gear should really not be deconstructable in the first place.
- There is much open space in this game and adding a few dozen non-chaining level 5-10 mobs in clumps of 5-6 in some of the open space around starter cities would allow people to level to 12 or so without needing late build AOE skills, groups or having to go through the quest chains for early XPs.
- An alternative (or preferably, companion) to the above point could be to cut the respec cost in half for, let's say, 15 skill points or less, and put a respec shrine in each starter city. This would allow players to try many weapon/ early skill line combos without having to sit through the cutscenes, unless they were changing race/class. I'd prefer this in combination with the above point, but, on it's own it would help a lot.
- Offer official documentation on exactly what the skills, currently, do and how they will scale over time. For a game that has taken so much from DAOC, another game with a huge variety of build combinations and a PvP end game, they seem to have not noticed that this was done by Mythic from day one. You can only depend on fansites to fill this gap long after launch when the player pool grows to a very large size. Only a small percentage of people are willing to fill out the content of these sites (for free) and there just isn't a large enough population in ESO at the moment. The best option is to add a skill calculator that is accurate, informative and up to date.
- Adding BGs and/or arenas can be time consuming, however, buying some more hardware and copy/pasting the code for Cyrodil and tweaking NPC levels is not. Add two campaigns: a level 25 cap campaign and a level 40 cap campaign. This will allow players to try out their early builds in PvP under circumstances that allow them to compete. (Might have to lower siege costs in these campaigns to level appropriate numbers as well.)
Edited by baronzilch on June 13, 2014 5:40PM0 -
Blade_07✭✭✭✭I took my 1st toon(NB) to VR5 then quit on him cuz I feel VR mobs atm are OP. But re-rolling a new toon is actually fun for me cuz I get to experience a class that is new and refreshing to me. You have to figure out how to play your new class that you started and thats new and fun.
Now of course your gunna do the same quests cuz thats just the way it is. Never have I ever seen an MMORPG make alternative content for a new toon except for Zenimax Online actually. They have made 2 different zones for noob players actually so you can at least experience two different places to level your noob toon. I admit though that re-reading through the same content that I have already done is boring. So I just click as fast as I can through it except for certain content that I really loved like listening to Sheogorath and Cadwell again is fun.Edited by Blade_07 on June 13, 2014 6:08PM“Man can live about forty days without food, about three days without water, about eight minutes without air, but only for one second without hope.”0 -
baronzilch✭✭✭Now of course your gunna do the same quests cuz thats just the way it is. Never have I ever seen an MMORPG make alternative content for a new toon except for Zenimax Online actually.
Very few games force you to quest so early on. Sometimes it's more efficient, sometimes the rewards are too attractive to pass up. But, I can only think of one other game that actually forced (by virtue of mechanics and starting zone set-up) a player to quest from level 1. Even most other RP-centric MMOs have always had the possibility to grind out the early levels - for many of the reasons I mentioned in my OP.
ESO is pretty unique in this, and it is a very bad idea for long-term game survivability. Ask WotC about how the whole forced questing thing has gone for them in DDO - and they have arguably a much more loved and respected lore set (not a knock on ES, but, D&D is 40 years old now) to attract players. (of course DDO was also much more poorly coded/implemented game than ESO, so it's not a completely black and white comparison for that reason.)0 -
Asawasa✭✭✭
In fact, the VR make everything you experienced up to that point utterly meaningless, as everything you achieved, everything you fought and died (many times) for is promptly erased/forgotten and you begin as though a stranger in a rival faction.
I disagree that everything you did is meaningless. its not like you go back to those areas and have to redo them all over again. what i got out of the whole VR areas is you are going back in time to see what your enemies went thru at the same time you were helping your faction overcome their obstacles and make things right in the world.
Zmax would find that people would get more joy out of their game if they were given more opportunities to discover and experience new things in a meaningful way instead of just as means to an end.
hmm i can almost agree with you but what is meaningful to you is boring to other people. for example i liked the craglorn grind. i would have used it to level any alts instead of going thru the 50+ and 50++ area and the loot is just so much better to gear up and break down for crafting materials. now i'm less inclined to make alts except as mules because i don't want to go thru all three factions again. maybe the devs will make it more meaningful for me to make alts by allowing a craglorn style grind. i certainly would get more enjoyment out of my game.0 -
Lalai✭✭✭✭I like the VR content, and don't really want it changed.. but I agree that it should not be something folks are forced to go through.Fisher extraordinaire!
Send me your worms, crawlers, guts, and insect parts.
Templar Healer
Daggerfall Covenant, NA0
