VR12 DK - boycotting Trials

rophez_ESO · June 2014

No, not because of our nerfs, or incoming nerfs. Not because I feel any animosity toward other classes.

I'm simply tired of having to wear robes and use a staff if I want to be allowed in a trial group. It's not that people putting the trials together are jerks and don't want to let me play the way I want (medium/DW) - it's because you really HAVE to have a certain amount of DPS to progress past certain bosses. Currently, you can only reliably get that DPS using a magicka build.

So, I've succumbed to the pressure and gotten good at animation cancelling, and maintaining various fire DOT's while I dance around with the other 10 staff users. Still, my guild and group of friends are small, so I have to join pugs, and I'm just thinking - do I really care about the leaderboard? Do I really care about marginally better loot (if that)?

I think I'll just put endgame PVE on hold. Hopefully ZOS will address the weaknesses of melee and non-magicka builds. I never thought endgame PVE would exclude everything but staves.

Seriously, maybe my experience is really limited, but have you ever seen DPS characters in Trials using swords? Axes? Hammers? Daggers? Bows? Isn't it a red flag to you, ZOS, when you have 98% end game players using 7/7 cloth and a staff?

crislevin · June 2014

well, everybody has their own grievances with Craglorn. But it would be hard to resonate since most of the people can't go there at all.

one thing I do agree, they have forced a lot of selections on us and therefore cannot claim somehow "play whatever style you want".

Its simply untrue, unless you only play 1-50 and be done with it after Molag Bal.

coryevans_3b14_ESO · June 2014

I'm in total agreement with you. The only way I will do Trials is with my guild. I will NEVER succumb to that robe/staff bs. It's a horrible result of *** poor dev decision to even add any kind of DPS race when they say "play how you want" and then crap on stam builds.

ArRashid · June 2014

/signed

Stamina builds will ALWAYS be inferior just because ALL class skills cost (and scale with) magicka. That's a fatal design flaw that won't just "go away", and no amount of nerfs to staves or class skills will make people use stamina weapons. The other fatal flaw is that you can't both attack and defend, unlike magicka builds. If you use stamina on one, you can't do anything for the other.

Basic class spells are just TOO EXPENSIVE to use (even with very low frequency) with stamina builds. You NEED that cost reduction from light armor. And when you're already wearing light armor, you've got no passives for weapon combat, so why even try? You just have to stick to staff. Hybrid gameplay just doesn't work.

- it would be different IF weapons got big enough overhaul to completely support a character - so he wouldn't have to use any magicka spells from class lines. Overall that would mean adding AT LEAST 2 abilities to each weapon, best with ultimate as well (ideas can be found here: Weapon Ultimates ideas)

- we also need a different resource for Roll Dodge, Sprint, Block (NOT bash - that's a physical attack) and CC-breaker. Let's say we name it "Breath" - it would be a fixed number, not scaling with level or base stats, only able to get increased by a few "tanking" passives and maybe an enchant. Breath's regeneration could use the calculation Breath_regen = 20+(Stamina_regen*Current_stamina/Max_stamina), which would have no effect on casters, but it would allow stamina users to defend while fighting - just the longer the fight lasts, the lesser the regen (else they would be able to defend indefinitely) - but they would be STILL able to defend even with 0 stamina left (and at 0 stamina you'd still regenerate at 20 Breath every 2 seconds.

Till then, they can just pretend there's going to be any class balance at all Soon™, while they try to squeeze some more cash from people still subbed. Their number however is decreasing every day, as people turn their backs on this otherwise nice game, disappointed.

Edit: don't know how, but I apparently made this post invisible to the minds of others pretty sad that when someone actually suggests viable means to balance whole game, his post is completely ignored

Worstluck · June 2014

The play the way you want is definitely applicable to 1-50, sans a few bosses where certain skills and weapons certainly help. You can really see that veteran content is just something tacked on, because they lost sight of their vision and didn't apply the 'play the way you want' there.

I don't bother with trials much either. 'Raids' that can be finished in 9 minutes with lackluster boss mechanics does not interest me. I like diversity. I want to see Nightblades in leather shooting a bow or stabbing away with daggers. I want to see a Templar wearing heavy armor, swinging a 2h, throwing up heals if need be. This current iteration of end game just isn't something I care to participate much in. In addition, I spend more time fighting bugs in Cyrodiil than players most of the time, so yeah, time to roll another alt.

rophez_ESO · June 2014

Worstluck wrote: »

The play the way you want is definitely applicable to 1-50, sans a few bosses where certain skills and weapons certainly help. You can really see that veteran content is just something tacked on, because they lost sight of their vision and didn't apply the 'play the way you want' there.

I don't bother with trials much either. 'Raids' that can be finished in 9 minutes with lackluster boss mechanics does not interest me. I like diversity. I want to see Nightblades in leather shooting a bow or stabbing away with daggers. I want to see a Templar wearing heavy armor, swinging a 2h, throwing up heals if need be. This current iteration of end game just isn't something I care to participate much in. In addition, I spend more time fighting bugs in Cyrodiil than players most of the time, so yeah, time to roll another alt.

Yeah, I'd really like to know why they decided to put the best loot in a DPS race. Why not put the best loot in a really long, tough dungeon crawl where player diversity is important? Shada's tear is a pretty cool dungeon... too bad the rewards are a joke.

DPS races should be relegated to a sideshow for people who really get a kick outta that, but when it's the focus of endgame PVE, then you suddenly have everyone being pressured into whatever the FOTM best DPS build is.

Why not design end game to value things like CC, backup heals, survivability? Why is the end-all of boss design, "OMG! Let's make it so they have to kill the boss really fast!"

Forget the fact that the very idea of a timed leaderboard pigeon holes people into DPS focused groups. Too bad there isn't any diversity in top dps in this game.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

Its the main reason for the exodus of end game players right now.

rophez_ESO · June 2014

ArRashid wrote: »

/signed

Stamina builds will ALWAYS be inferior just because ALL class skills cost (and scale with) magicka. That's a fatal design flaw that won't just "go away", and no amount of nerfs to staves or class skills will make people use stamina weapons. The other fatal flaw is that you can't both attack and defend, unlike magicka builds. If you use stamina on one, you can't do anything for the other.

Basic class spells are just TOO EXPENSIVE to use (even with very low frequency) with stamina builds. You NEED that cost reduction from light armor. And when you're already wearing light armor, you've got no passives for weapon combat, so why even try? You just have to stick to staff. Hybrid gameplay just doesn't work.

- it would be different IF weapons got big enough overhaul to completely support a character - so he wouldn't have to use any magicka spells from class lines. Overall that would mean adding AT LEAST 2 abilities to each weapon, best with ultimate as well (ideas can be found here: Weapon Ultimates ideas)

- we also need a different resource for Roll Dodge, Sprint, Block (NOT bash - that's a physical attack) and CC-breaker. Let's say we name it "Breath" - it would be a fixed number, not scaling with level or base stats, only able to get increased by a few "tanking" passives and maybe an enchant. Breath's regeneration could use the calculation Breath_regen = 20+(Stamina_regen*Current_stamina/Max_stamina), which would have no effect on casters, but it would allow stamina users to defend while fighting - just the longer the fight lasts, the lesser the regen (else they would be able to defend indefinitely) - but they would be STILL able to defend even with 0 stamina left (and at 0 stamina you'd still regenerate at 20 Breath every 2 seconds.

Till then, they can just pretend there's going to be any class balance at all Soon™, while they try to squeeze some more cash from people still subbed. Their number however is decreasing every day, as people turn their backs on this otherwise nice game, disappointed.

With regard to the bolded portion of your post: You're totally right. I have a lot of cool class abilities that would synergize nicely with my DW abilities, but they cost too dang much if I'm wearing medium armor and stamina jewelry. Why are ALL class abilities magicka based?

Natjur · June 2014

They have 'tuned' class skills to take into account light armor passives, which makes any other build so much 'less' and why almost all DPS builds are now based around light armor with staff. (I can't say much about the NB tho, as I only got that toon to L31)

I don't want to have the 'best' build, but I would like to have a few builds as valid options instead of 50% less then the light\staff builds.

I was sure this game was designed to allow each class the option to fulfill any roll (tank, healer & dps) and while leveling, this appears to be valid, end game, it changed.

My V12 sorc has tanked, healed and dps vet dungeons, (without the Templar instance heals, it was harder but doable)

My V12 DK has tanked and dps vet dungeons. (I tried healing and failed.... if you have a good DK heal build, tell me)

My V12 Templar has tanked, healed and dps but not vet, as magic management is very hard, I have healed a vet dungeon run, but it was a lot harder then my sorc. I gave up dps and tanking vet dungeons on my templar.

I am not saying its not doable with a good friendly guild group, but playing my sorc or dk, it was so much easier and more fun then my templar.

The whole resource management of this game is broken. Stamina based builds just don't 'pull it off'. There are lots of ways to fix this. (Add a new resource called Strength and have weapons linked to that instead, leaving stamina for block\dodge) but as most change this game in big ways, if I was the dev's I don't think I could balance this game.

Templar is parked, the sorc is the only class out of the three I have maxed which can do any role at the moment.

jambam817_ESO · June 2014

I've given up on Vet content, as soon as i got my Nightblade to VR2 i knew it wasn't for me in its current state. I was no longer able to use the build i had while leveling.
I've been rolling alts and playing with a friend that just got the game. 1-50 is fun for me so i don't mind putting off the rest of the game until a few patches.

Zakua · June 2014

/signed

NerfEverything · June 2014

VR12 Templar here also boycotting trials...

JK! No one lets templars in trials in the first place

rophez_ESO · June 2014

NerfEverything wrote: »

VR12 Templar here also boycotting trials...

JK! No one lets templars in trials in the first place

The sad thing is, Templars are great characters. They have tons of versatility and if endgame wasn't so focused on DPS races, they'd be a lot more successful.

Evergnar · June 2014

My 400lb provisioning Orc will go naked before you get him in a dress...and nobody wants to see that.

Covyn · June 2014

My DK is parked for the same reasons.....Elder Sorcerers Online got old quick.

The 1-50 game still has mild amounts of enjoyment though.

Inco · June 2014

NerfEverything wrote: »

VR12 Templar here also boycotting trials...

JK! No one lets templars in trials in the first place

Mine too.. don't get to heal much when guild has more Templar healers not doing much and plenty of SORC/DK's to DPS and Heal.

Covyn wrote: »

My DK is parked for the same reasons.....Elder Sorcerers Online got old quick.

The 1-50 game still has mild amounts of enjoyment though.

Yup! I'm getting a little more game time checking out other classes 1-50, but stopping short of VR content on each.

rophez_ESO wrote: »

NerfEverything wrote: »

VR12 Templar here also boycotting trials...

JK! No one lets templars in trials in the first place

The sad thing is, Templars are great characters. They have tons of versatility and if endgame wasn't so focused on DPS races, they'd be a lot more successful.

Totally Agree! We do, but just got nerfed too hard in BETA to be viable.

hamon · June 2014

agreed. i could level other toons but after doing every quest in every zone i,m kinda burnt out on that to level any more chars... all i do now is check my mail and pvp for an hour till the disconnects annoy me enough to go play something else.... still world cup is on ,, hope they fix it before it finishes cos my 3 month sub wont be getting renewed unless its sorted

bloodenragedb14_ESO · June 2014

seriously, no more nerfs period till stamina builds are buffed to the same power-level as magicka builds

Malmai · June 2014

Well you can play the way you want but people that are playing this hardcore mode want to have perfect classes for roles. Also each class has inbuilt stronger side which is logical to me, if you have better passives as Templar for healing how could a Sorcerer be a better choice? But yea you can do it the way you want.

Guys get yourself a nice guild that wont look on all this.

rophez_ESO · June 2014

Malmai wrote: »

Well you can play the way you want but people that are playing this hardcore mode want to have perfect classes for roles. Also each class has inbuilt stronger side which is logical to me, if you have better passives as Templar for healing how could a Sorcerer be a better choice? But yea you can do it the way you want.

Guys get yourself a nice guild that wont look on all this.

The point you're missing is that there are certain bosses that are a DPS race. The only way to hit the required DPS seems to be light armor + magicka abilities. If there's a way to hit 800+ single target DPS on my DK using DW, I'd appreciate a tip in the right direction.

Edit: PS - I don't want to wear 7/7 light armor and just spam my magicka abilities

Cody · June 2014

I play how I played 1-49; in vet zone. I, like you, refuse to switch to a light armor destro build just to do endgame. ZOS needs to go back and look at how they did vet zones, and how they made the endgame.

Phinix1 · June 2014

Wow, that sounds really frustrating and a bit disheartening for an upcoming vet level (almost) 4 player. I sincerely hope this isn't a sign of the "end game" we can expect moving forward.

There is nothing I HATE more in MMO's than min-maxing elitist punks that want you to face mash a spreadsheet instead of playing in an intelligent and entertaining fashion, and if that is the sort of content ZOS has in store for us, I can't see sticking around much after finishing the vet content the first time through.

I am sure they'll add more actual raid type content in future updates though. I have faith in the group they have working for them. But I might just skip this round of "trials" altogether.

It just doesn't sound like fun.

S1L3NTKiLLaH · June 2014

ESO's endgame came in the form of a patch lol. But hey this is what happens when developers listen to little kids whining about the game.

Spent the whole game a S&S and Dual Wield, now its like i am no stronger than a skeever. So I need to rebuild into BS cheap char spec? I dont want the fights to be a breeze but I would lie to be able to handle them.

Veteran content difficulty is the reason I just unsubscribed.

philip.ploegerb16_ESO · June 2014

To me, this is high end whining.

Interestingly enough, it's mostly the stronger classes that whine, so the process of becoming weaker seems to be the problem.

It should actually be understood though, that making 1 class less strong is sometimes easier than making the other 3 stronger.

Try to be happy and actually find fun in that you are actually taken with on trial-groups, and that in basically indefinate amounts, while there are only 1 or 2 spots at most in groups for others.

S1L3NTKiLLaH · June 2014

philip.ploegerb16_ESO wrote: »

To me, this is high end whining.

Interestingly enough, it's mostly the stronger classes that whine, so the process of becoming weaker seems to be the problem.

It should actually be understood though, that making 1 class less strong is sometimes easier than making the other 3 stronger.

Try to be happy and actually find fun in that you are actually taken with on trial-groups, and that in basically indefinate amounts, while there are only 1 or 2 spots at most in groups for others.

If I spent all this time playing "my way" and leveled spec'd my guy the way "I want" and was able to play with him just fine why should i not be upset about them patch ruining my character?

I invested a lot of time, payed for a game/sub just to have my accomplishments nerf'd into oblivion. So I guess because other people are bad my class should suffer a nerf. Why should I be able to play solo? Too many people cry and ruin things for many others.

Companies need to stop catering to whiny sob's. They may make the game better for the whiny babies but they ruin it for the others who are already devoted to their builds. Mine specifically was for solo play, now there is no such thing as solo play in ESO.

I am more concerned about the ability to play by myself. Which they definitely made sure you can't do anymore.

Still_Mind · June 2014

Medium and Heavy needs to be brought to be on par with Light, overall functionality-wise.

I agree, with the current state of affairs, putting on your robe and wizard hat during your play time is necessary to maximize performance.

AZSharksFan · June 2014

My problem is... If it's preferable that the tanks have CLOTH/MAGIJIKA over Heavy/Stamina, then something is seriously wrong..

I enjoy being a meatshield but it's just wrong on so many levels that I have to wear cloth to be on the upper fringe of raid guilds..

I'm not boycotting anything but clearly I won't be asked to join the cool kids in Trials..

Rylana · June 2014

The way I see it, is if you want me to run a specific spec, you can send me the 30k for hitting the shrine, and then can also pay my sub for the month.

Nightblade Tank/DPS reporting in, also an assassin, healer, speed demon, oh and crafter extraordinaire.

Oh and I run Bow/DW Medium with 2600 health (depends on if i eat a sweetroll or a pudding), I suppose I am doing that wrong too XD

So tell me, amidoinitrite?

Cyrodiil Stats: http://i.imgur.com/llcNiVO.jpg
Non-Cyro Stats: http://i.imgur.com/WCT6ThH.jpg

philip.ploegerb16_ESO · June 2014

S1L3NTKiLLaH wrote: »

philip.ploegerb16_ESO wrote: »

To me, this is high end whining.

Interestingly enough, it's mostly the stronger classes that whine, so the process of becoming weaker seems to be the problem.

It should actually be understood though, that making 1 class less strong is sometimes easier than making the other 3 stronger.

Try to be happy and actually find fun in that you are actually taken with on trial-groups, and that in basically indefinate amounts, while there are only 1 or 2 spots at most in groups for others.

If I spent all this time playing "my way" and leveled spec'd my guy the way "I want" and was able to play with him just fine why should i not be upset about them patch ruining my character?

I invested a lot of time, payed for a game/sub just to have my accomplishments nerf'd into oblivion. So I guess because other people are bad my class should suffer a nerf. Why should I be able to play solo? Too many people cry and ruin things for many others.

Companies need to stop catering to whiny sob's. They may make the game better for the whiny babies but they ruin it for the others who are already devoted to their builds. Mine specifically was for solo play, now there is no such thing as solo play in ESO.

I am more concerned about the ability to play by myself. Which they definitely made sure you can't do anymore.

1. Your capability to play solo is in no way related to your accomplishment to play with 2H or pay a sub.
2. Classes are nerfed because they're overpowered and not because people are bad.

What you say about ESO favouring large groups over small ones is unfortunately true, but that again is not related in any way to you wearing any type of weapon or being dependent on any type of skill.

If being precise, actually, your capability to play solo is a lot bigger from a class-perspective than mine, because you are a Dragonknight that has awesome survivability + awesome dmg while me as a Templar has, yes, no Mana-management, medicore dmg and almost zero CC.

Best weapon is the one that helps you kill your opponent.