yes and no from me, yes i'd like to see less spam but no i dont wanna be FORCED into it, maybe make light and heavy attacks that little bit tougher while increasing magicka costs slightly? gives them a reason to actually attack then when oomed

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Seems fair. But mana cost would need to be looked at. For example my emergency heal cost pretty close to the sorcs second cast of BE. So it would probably need its original cost cut in half to be more in line with BE.

No. Every heal would have this applied. Sorcs on a Resto Staff can just spam 1-2 healing abilities over and over and over and over forever with infinite mana. My solution here fixes that by enabling sorcs full power from healing with resto staff but discouraging them to just run in figure 8's spamming it.

As for the Emergency Heal, I would suggest removing the cast time and making it instant cast. Your emergency heal is kind of like sorcs having any kind of heal; not meant to be spammed. Maybe to your Templar Heals, add the ability to remove negative effects to some of the heals.

Power up the Templar, but I have been screaming from the top of the mountain that Templar Healers are better off just using a Resto Staff to heal because their own abilities for healing are worthless.

Ragekniv wrote: »

No.

Where was your solidarity and concern when Zenimax ninja nerfed Templars as a precedent.

NBs and Templars have been broken since Beta. Sorcs and DKs have been OP FOTM for three months too long!

Balance sustained DPS and resource mechanics of all classes!

Why not add a GCD to BE and make it cost more magicka, it certainly worked for Biting Jabs.

I think you'd enjoy it!

Next round of OP nerfs please!

wait, did you see any sorc glowing with the GCB of biting jabs?

I would be satisfied with a full respec to skills every time they change abilities. Nerf or not, why isn't this a given?

crislevin wrote: »

seems logic to me. everybody bash BE being spammable and ask for nerf, why not nerf all spammable skills then?

Because every skill in the game is spammable. The dissuasion from spamming skills is resource management. If a skill is being abused and spammed to the point where it is a one trick pony, it needs its cost adjusted.

Which is what they did with bolt escape. Oh, and biting jabs, before bolt escape. Huh, funny. You guys weren't the first to be hit by the nerf bat.

This game is about resource management, not cooldowns. Now, I imagine that if they had just overall increased the cost of BE, that would have made you mad. This way you can still use it multiple times , to escape, without completely destroying your entire magicka stockpile, but you can no longer fly across the map with it.

Back on track, not all skills need a 50% increase on second cast. Templar heals are expensive enough as it is, and we have no resource management right now, so keep throwing darts at us till we're OOM and you have your kill. Resto staff heals are all HOTs, so you can still burst through it, and adding another identical HOT to your first HOT is going to do absolutely nothing except drain your magicka, and add a second or two to the duration since you have refreshed it.

Other skills, such as impulse, have also had their costs adjusted. You have always had freedom to spam skills, but you should not have freedom to spam skills with zero consequence. Spamming something should run you OOM, and most skills in the game will do just that.

RylukShouja wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

seems logic to me. everybody bash BE being spammable and ask for nerf, why not nerf all spammable skills then?

Because every skill in the game is spammable. The dissuasion from spamming skills is resource management. If a skill is being abused and spammed to the point where it is a one trick pony, it needs its cost adjusted.

Which is what they did with bolt escape. Oh, and biting jabs, before bolt escape. Huh, funny. You guys weren't the first to be hit by the nerf bat.

This game is about resource management, not cooldowns. Now, I imagine that if they had just overall increased the cost of BE, that would have made you mad. This way you can still use it multiple times , to escape, without completely destroying your entire magicka stockpile, but you can no longer fly across the map with it.

Back on track, not all skills need a 50% increase on second cast. Templar heals are expensive enough as it is, and we have no resource management right now, so keep throwing darts at us till we're OOM and you have your kill. Resto staff heals are all HOTs, so you can still burst through it, and adding another identical HOT to your first HOT is going to do absolutely nothing except drain your magicka, and add a second or two to the duration since you have refreshed it.

Other skills, such as impulse, have also had their costs adjusted. You have always had freedom to spam skills, but you should not have freedom to spam skills with zero consequence. Spamming something should run you OOM, and most skills in the game will do just that.

first, nobody thought a 1.2s GCD was a legit adjustment to biting jabs, and it wasn't.

second, biting jabs actually kills people, BE doesn't.

and third, that 50% is a lie, it practically asks for 100% increase, with all the hidden nerf (stop magicka regen, ignore equipment reduction).

ps, if that 50% is actually true according to the tooltip cost of initial cast, You wouldn't see me here.

Waaaaaaah. No.

The need for this fix really demonstrates the core weaknesses of a 1-5 bar and how it limits you. As for weapon swap, imagine weapon swap with 1-9 instead, would be really cool tech bro. Besides, I don't know of very many modern MMO's that don't let you Weapon Swap.

Mystborn wrote: »

What if the OP described it another way... What if rather than penalising people for using the same ability back to back you rewarded people who use a variety of abilities? What if every ability gave you a 4 second buff that said "abilities other than Xxxxxx cost 20% less and/or deal 20% more damage" or whatever - the actual buff is irrelevant it's the concept of rewarding diversity in skill use I'm trying to get across here.

Interesting.

Positive Reinforcement works as well as Negative Reinforcement.

I knew this idea would be unpopular with players; heck, nerfing loot was very unpopular. But it is also for the better of the game, especially combined with 1-9 bar as it should have been this entire time.

I like the idea of "Any other spell/ability you cast has a reduced cost of 20%". Anything that rewards diversity and kills one-trick builds.

Nope

Singular wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

...no...

Do you like a 1-5 bar limiting you to 2 abilities you spam in repetition?

All you are going to be doing here is making the button mashing variable, from strong-weak-weak-strong-weak-weak-strong etc.

It would be nearly identical to adding a cooldown - just a cooldown of cost, rather than time. The timer itself would come from the magicka/stamina regen.

It would certainly make battles longer, and require a different kind of skillset, but I'm not convinced it would be better.

This is the kind of Negative Feedback I was hoping for.

I don't know if a Cost Cooldown is a bad model. I also agree it would take a different skillset, and require more skills to cycle through, thus 1-9 skillbar would almost be mandatory. I think this form of gameplay would be much better and more fun especially in PVP.

PVP and PVE both need to be taken together. If you have to spam 3 buttons instead of just one, that at least leaves more room for error (thus skill to pull off) and gives you "more to do" than just one thing.

Also, when you are "caught" using just one thing, like when people noticed Sorcs using only Crystal Fragments, they cry for nerf. Often they don't know why sorcs only use Crystal Fragments. Maybe it is powerful (every class has a few high-hitters, right?) and maybe all of the other abilities just aren't "reliable".

I feel the problem is in part the latter, and adding this cost to all abilities would require making the other Sorcerer abilities good.

This would also mean every class would have to be looked at and have their passives give synergy with more than one skill line. Actives should be good abilities that someone would want to slot and cast. When a class has less than 10 good abilities between all of its "Class Skills" there is a serious problem. I know some of you overcome it with Guild Skills and Weapon Skills.

crislevin wrote: »

RylukShouja wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

seems logic to me. everybody bash BE being spammable and ask for nerf, why not nerf all spammable skills then?

Because every skill in the game is spammable. The dissuasion from spamming skills is resource management. If a skill is being abused and spammed to the point where it is a one trick pony, it needs its cost adjusted.

Which is what they did with bolt escape. Oh, and biting jabs, before bolt escape. Huh, funny. You guys weren't the first to be hit by the nerf bat.

This game is about resource management, not cooldowns. Now, I imagine that if they had just overall increased the cost of BE, that would have made you mad. This way you can still use it multiple times , to escape, without completely destroying your entire magicka stockpile, but you can no longer fly across the map with it.

Back on track, not all skills need a 50% increase on second cast. Templar heals are expensive enough as it is, and we have no resource management right now, so keep throwing darts at us till we're OOM and you have your kill. Resto staff heals are all HOTs, so you can still burst through it, and adding another identical HOT to your first HOT is going to do absolutely nothing except drain your magicka, and add a second or two to the duration since you have refreshed it.

Other skills, such as impulse, have also had their costs adjusted. You have always had freedom to spam skills, but you should not have freedom to spam skills with zero consequence. Spamming something should run you OOM, and most skills in the game will do just that.

first, nobody thought a 1.2s GCD was a legit adjustment to biting jabs, and it wasn't.

second, biting jabs actually kills people, BE doesn't.

and third, that 50% is a lie, it practically asks for 100% increase, with all the hidden nerf (stop magicka regen, ignore equipment reduction).

ps, if that 50% is actually true according to the tooltip cost of initial cast, You wouldn't see me here.

First, I wasn't talking about the 1.2s GCD, I was talking about the "fix" they put in that increased the cost. Second, at least you have an escape. To be a viable non-stamina Templar, I need to wear mostly light armour and stack a lot of magicka...which means I have no survivability due to a small health pool and very little armour. Third, last I checked, 78% is not 100%. I have not done he math myself, and I have seen lots of people posting different calculations proving it either does or doesn't work as advertised, but I have never seen more than an 80% increase in cost. Exaggerating doesn't prove your point.

But we digress from the topic. Ultimately, there are not enough skill slots for this to work effectively. In order for many builds to be survivable, they will throw in selective cc, such as volcanic rune or fire clench, but those are very situational abilities, and otherwise eat a spot on your hotbar. Having only 3 DD slots is not fun. Add in magelight for a caster...I have two slots for DD abilities with my current build on my primary weapon in order to survive trash. It's kinda hard not to spam when you have so little possibility for diversity...

If the weapon swap was more reliable it would be easier to diversify, though. Having abilities grayed out for 5+ seconds after swapping, or not swapping and then double swapping, means I have to rely on one bar for everything as much as possible.

Lord_Wrath wrote: »

Anyone just saying 'no' like its a valid answer really has no merit at all. At least give feed back as to WHY. Give back to the community you're part of instead of making it look trashy.

I am honestly unsure of how I feel about it. I see both sides of the argument and many things have already been said. It would be nice to get the game out of the simplicity of spamming but thats asking for a lot.

The first sentence of his post says 'Nerf everything across the board.' So when everyone says a simple 'No.' I think that's a sufficient response to such a drastic, and more than a little ridiculous, proposal.

So then you have to just spam a while rotation instead? I see what you are going for, but what you propose doesn't really change anything and just makes the game annoying...Like most other MMOs. Post-EQ mmos trended towards more abilities. Which is fine, but some really went overboard. EQ2 wound up with people running, literally, 10 bars of 12 keys to have everything they needed to spam potentially available. EQ itself wound up not too far from that with clickies, extra spells available, active ***, etc.

All it does is make the game clickier. While there are times I would love to have more keys available, I like that we are limited to 5 abilities and an ult that need to be carefully chosen for each situation. And I like that there are situations that can be handled with 1 or 2 of those. I've learned from past experience with other games, every fight needing to be a spam fest gets very old very fast.


Not to mention, could destroy versitilty. If you have to use a rotation to be effective in all situations and are limited to 5+1 keyed at once then it's just a matter of time before optimal set up is discovered and becomes required.

Good intentions but no, thank you.

Soloeus wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

...no...

Do you like a 1-5 bar limiting you to 2 abilities you spam in repetition?

All you are going to be doing here is making the button mashing variable, from strong-weak-weak-strong-weak-weak-strong etc.

It would be nearly identical to adding a cooldown - just a cooldown of cost, rather than time. The timer itself would come from the magicka/stamina regen.

It would certainly make battles longer, and require a different kind of skillset, but I'm not convinced it would be better.

This is the kind of Negative Feedback I was hoping for.

I don't know if a Cost Cooldown is a bad model. I also agree it would take a different skillset, and require more skills to cycle through, thus 1-9 skillbar would almost be mandatory. I think this form of gameplay would be much better and more fun especially in PVP.

PVP and PVE both need to be taken together. If you have to spam 3 buttons instead of just one, that at least leaves more room for error (thus skill to pull off) and gives you "more to do" than just one thing.

Also, when you are "caught" using just one thing, like when people noticed Sorcs using only Crystal Fragments, they cry for nerf. Often they don't know why sorcs only use Crystal Fragments. Maybe it is powerful (every class has a few high-hitters, right?) and maybe all of the other abilities just aren't "reliable".

I feel the problem is in part the latter, and adding this cost to all abilities would require making the other Sorcerer abilities good.

This would also mean every class would have to be looked at and have their passives give synergy with more than one skill line. Actives should be good abilities that someone would want to slot and cast. When a class has less than 10 good abilities between all of its "Class Skills" there is a serious problem. I know some of you overcome it with Guild Skills and Weapon Skills.

Yeah, if your suggestion was implemented with the addition of more ability slots, it would work. It would change the game, yet I'd find it much more enjoyable than what we have. Right now I feel deeply limited, even if I am using the entire range of my 5+ult+weapon buttons. I basically end up opening with an aoe, doing a diff aoe, then spamming the cheap individual damage dealer, then dark exchange - repeat till enemies or you die. Swap to healing side if needed.

It would be more fun with more slotable, usuable abilities, more real time combat, more variety, more choice. I guess it's fun enough, b/c this is the new pretty MMO and I don't feel like going back to my old one.

Your suggestion is kind of a forced variety, but it's variety. The thing is, it's done lots in other MMOs (well, the cool-downs, not the increased cost as far as I know). This one is trying to be different - and perhaps that's an issue - and cater to console games in the future. I'm sure the 6+weapon swap was designed out of the need for consoles, so I'm certain your suggestion is going to fall on deaf ears.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like your idea. I don't like cool down timer playing - you have to focus on the timers to be effective and not the action. But if all that happened was that your resources dwindled faster, strategies would emerge from practice. I doubt this game will adopt it, but you might want to consider getting in on an alpha and making these kinds of suggestions.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

I have one ability that I use once (Inner Light). One ability that mitigates a little damage (Harness Magicka). That leaves 3 abilities to figure out how to kill an enemy. I only need 3 abilities for that, and will probably use 2. But, that is the problem, right?

I don't know about you but I have 2 weapons. That's 10 slots and I use all of them. And when I'm out of combat I use hotkeys to swap out the whole bar with other presets when I need to.

you can make presets for a whole cast bar swap?