Original SWG did not have levels and was great, until they tried to balance the skills for PvP, which they could not do so they redid the combat system (Combat Upgrade aka the dreaded CU) which failed and then led to the NGE (New Game Experience).

Vendersleigh wrote: »

Original SWG did not have levels and was great, until they tried to balance the skills for PvP, which they could not do so they redid the combat system (Combat Upgrade aka the dreaded CU) which failed and then led to the NGE (New Game Experience).

Sadly I missed out on SWG, I did play the demo but at the time the concept of killing 10 of everything was then alien to me so l didn't bother... bad decision really.

A TES game would have been perfect for a no level game with a more standard skill system. As everyone would have the same options, so there could be no balance complaints.

Because it is the standard , and people are used to it.

RPGs dont need lvls , what they need is progression of some sort , since like in real life , we are usually improving in something and thus that should be there in the RPG.

I have seen it been done in many , many ways over the years , be it on PC/console games or table top.

Still , i guess we can both agree the most used and thus familar method is with lvls and items.

AlexDougherty wrote: »

It's been done, people complained. They said they didn't like grinding solely for gear, which you then replace when you get the next peice. Also if they include gear bonuses, mixing gear produced weird bugs, which people complained about.

Can you give me an example of a high budget game that has done this, that is also a fantasy based mmo?
People will complain no matter, but so long as you have balance, interesting stories, well designed dungeons and fun PVP I think you have all you need for a successful mmo.
Obviously you need to reward players for achievement, but I think titles, pets and bragging rights is much more interesting than levels.

You don't want an RPG. You want a shooter. You want Bioshock in Tamriel. Fortunately this will NEVER be the case with ES games.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

A TES game would have been perfect for a no level game with a more standard skill system.

You have played an Elder Scrolls game before, right? 'Cause they aren't and have never been level-less affairs.

As everyone would have the same options, so there could be no balance complaints.

You have been on the internet before, right? Because people complain about having to pay extra for stuffed crust on their pizza. They will find balance complaints, even where none exist.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

You don't want an RPG. You want a shooter. You want Bioshock in Tamriel. Fortunately this will NEVER be the case with ES games.

I really don't, I enjoy FPS games a lot, but what I want is a game like eso, but where I am really free to do what I want from the start. It's what I expected from a TES game, not so much no levels but freedom.
Most of what I want is to PVP, but I do like to mix it up a little. Why is it that in all MMO's I need to complete the game before I can really enjoy the PVP?

Because MMOs will have progression like i said , so a person who spent more time getting ready and becoming stronger , will probably crush you.

MMOs very rarely are trully skill based alone.

I played my share of TES games , Morrowing and foward , you could go anywere , but that did not mean enemies would not crush you in an instant if you were not strong enough.

All that changes is the amount of freedom you have , since in ESO with the lvls and the MMO progression , all enemies in a zone will become a danger , while in the usual ES game that is not the case , you usually will only find the most dangerous enemies in certain places not a whole region.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

You don't want an RPG. You want a shooter. You want Bioshock in Tamriel. Fortunately this will NEVER be the case with ES games.

I really don't, I enjoy FPS games a lot, but what I want is a game like eso, but where I am really free to do what I want from the start. It's what I expected from a TES game, not so much no levels but freedom.
Most of what I want is to PVP, but I do like to mix it up a little. Why is it that in all MMO's I need to complete the game before I can really enjoy the PVP?

Because MMOs will have progression like i said , so a person who spent more time getting ready and becoming stronger , will probably crush you.

MMOs very rarely are trully skill based alone.

I played my share of TES games , Morrowing and foward , you could go anywere , but that did not mean enemies would not crush you in an instant if you were not strong enough.

All that changes is the amount of freedom you have , since in ESO with the lvls and the MMO progression , all enemies in a zone will become a danger , while in the usual ES game that is not the case , you usually will only find the most dangerous enemies in certain places not a whole region.

I don't mean freedom to go anywhere and not die, I mean freedom to play the game how I would like.

One day I might want to PVP, the next I might want to PVE. Now obviously you can do this, but not without having your behind handed to you.

Your right a person who spent more time getting ready and becoming stronger, will probably crush you.

and that's why I ask why? Someone spending hours and hours killing the same boss over and over again to get that sword that only drops 0.5% of the time deserves an advantage, so long as it is only an advantage. The same applies for someone that has put hours into a profession learning.

But why should anyone pretty much be one hit killed by someone else, simply because they have played 6 hours to your 1 hour? This is what levels do. Even more so in ESO because in there wisdom they decided to add VR.

Mortal Online.
No levels, best crafting ever, full player controlled market, buggy as hell.

Sadly done by a.too small team with too low budget. The idea itself is the best I have ever heard.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

You don't want an RPG. You want a shooter. You want Bioshock in Tamriel. Fortunately this will NEVER be the case with ES games.

Why is it that in all MMO's I need to complete the game before I can really enjoy the PVP?

Not all mmos require you to level up to really enjoy the pvp and some let you jump right in on a level playing field.

Yasha wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

You don't want an RPG. You want a shooter. You want Bioshock in Tamriel. Fortunately this will NEVER be the case with ES games.

Why is it that in all MMO's I need to complete the game before I can really enjoy the PVP?

Not all mmos require you to level up to really enjoy the pvp and some let you jump right in on a level playing field.

GW/GW2 is an example of this. I like to level so I never jump right in, but those two offer the option.

The ideal game, in my option would not be level but skilled based and your skills would be based on a 100% range. You start with said skill at lets say 25%. As you successfully use it there is a chance for it to increase. The chance to increase is based on your current percentage. Using 25% for an example, your character hit the amount of successful uses the game has set for advancement and you have a 75% chance to increase the skill.

If you successfully increase the skill then you get a random boost of between 1% and 5%. Lets say you get 3% this means your skill is not hitting at 28%.

This system would have a natural slowdown as the skill became more used without a grind for the next bump.

Mopar63 wrote: »

The ideal game, in my option would not be level but skilled based and your skills would be based on a 100% range. You start with said skill at lets say 25%. As you successfully use it there is a chance for it to increase. The chance to increase is based on your current percentage. Using 25% for an example, your character hit the amount of successful uses the game has set for advancement and you have a 75% chance to increase the skill.

If you successfully increase the skill then you get a random boost of between 1% and 5%. Lets say you get 3% this means your skill is not hitting at 28%.

This system would have a natural slowdown as the skill became more used without a grind for the next bump.

This is still a leveling system just done differently. IF you execute a level less system properly your character will get better because you yourself are better at the game. All the content will still be capable of killing you.

Any leveling system makes it so something that used to be capable of killing you have no chance of killing you anymore simple due to stat/power increase.

As mentioned in this thread already. Ultima online did this, and it was amazing. Literally as soon as you started you could go anywhere, and try anything. You would have to improve your skills and some basic stats (by doing certain tasks, I.e. mining for str) but it was really a very open feeling.

That game was it for me and I played for years, and totally would still if they had a much earlier version with a stable population.

A very popular Morrowind mod hid the game leveling and focused on the skill leveling.

ESO skilling mudcrabs based on a zone is absolutely silly, because you can go to Rift from Stonefalls and get ganked by mudcrabs. Monster levels should be based on type, in that you know a dremora will be a tough fight but mudcrabs are easy once you exceed their level.

Most sandbox MMOs, such as Darkfall, Mortal, and Wurm do not have game levels because they go against the sandbox idea of being able to go anywhere you want.

Instead they have extensive skill trees and you level those instead, with a very extensive grind to max out a skill. Not uncommon for some to macro cheat those like running into a wall. I am fine with someone manually grinding skills because the reward is worth the effort, but programs grinding the skills gives reward with no effort.

You can spend your skills being a master crafter and have to hire master fighters to get your goods to market, because even a mudcrab would be a threat to a crafter, whereas the spider queen is going to be a tough fight for a group of fighters. But there are no zones, the difficult mobs are distributed amongst the easy mobs. In Wurm you in theory could master everything, but since it takes years to master any one thing that is not feasible, whereas the others have faster skilling with budget caps.

Sadly the sandbox MMO has been relegated to the indy developers that lack the budget to put the spit and polish on them.