Other games that overcame troubled launches & went on to be successful? What can ESO devs learn?

aleister · June 2014

My experience has been that an MMO is either received well at launch or it doesn't fare very well ultimately, but maybe there exceptions that I didn't play. What are some examples of games that had especially troubled or controversial launches (WoW is not one of these) that went on to be successful?

And by "successful", I don't mean they simply kept the game online. There are many "living dead" MMOs. Successful means a growing, thriving player population, new content, etc.

Apsalon · June 2014

None i know of. *shrugs* I played thirteen MMOs to date.

This genre in particular is just a very toxic environment for any newborn game. Big role in this has the sheer amount of money needed to develop such a monster. Thus F2P for a lot of hopeful games in the past.

Nate · June 2014

FF XIV is a big one. Although they had to completely redo the game.

Aeradon · June 2014

I miss MMO where it looks completely empty but filled with easter eggs. (Ragnarok Online)

sajackson · June 2014

aleister wrote: »

What are some examples of games that had especially troubled or controversial launches (WoW is not one of these) that went on to be successful?

That's not quite the case actually. WoW had a very troubled launch - they suffered from very bad server instability and bugged quests up until around patch 1.3 or 1.4 from what I remember. It's also worth noting that each expansion they've released even up to MoP has suffered from problems for at least a few days following launch.

A lot of people seem to see WoW with very rose-tinted glasses but trust me it has its fair share of problems.

lioslinn · June 2014

I love all the armchair mmo experts who generously offer to teach something to the devs... I've also been through a few launches and I thought ESO was fairly smooth. Before spending millions on a project like this they certainly did market research and studied other MMOs

Now that the ' rush to vr in a few days then complain of lack of content' crowd is gone the lower zones are quite busy. Two months in the major bugs and most bots are gone, I think that's decent *shrug* there is balancing to be done, normal as players can be quite creative and combine abilities in unexpected ways

I don't think ESO is an awesome game, I think its an OK game that will do ok

MrDenimChicken · June 2014

Everyone keeps saying, "well WOW had problems at launch too!!"

but I want to know...did WOW have flaws that were inherently in the way the game was designed, rather than just server issues and bugs? I'm genuinely asking cause I didn't play WOW at the beginning.

This game has problems that stem from the designing decisions of the developers, and pretty much require a remaking of the game. People can wait for bugs and lag to be fixed imo if the game has a good design at it's core. But I don't think people will wait for you to remake the game.

Did WOW have design problems that don't make sense? Anything equivalent to the VR system, stamina build/anything other than light armor and staves being irrelevant, and group phasing?

sajackson · June 2014

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

but I want to know...did WOW have flaws that were inherently in the way the game was designed, rather than just server issues and bugs?

Yes, they didn't really get the class balance sorted out until TBC, and even then there were still issues up until the present day.

In vanilla WoW if you were a Paladin the only role you could perform in end-game was healing because the tank & dps specs were laughable. They sorted out pally tanking in TBC and dps further down the line.

There were issues with other class\builds as well. Sometimes it just takes a while to figure out how to make all the competing elements of an MMO work, and its often a bit of a moving target anyway.

This game has problems that stem from the designing decisions of the developers, and pretty much require a remaking of the game.

I just can't bring myself to agree with this statement. Sure there are problems that are being worked on but a whole "remaking" of the game? I'm finding lots of aspects of the game that I enjoy and it way outweighs any of the problems I've hit so stating that they need to "remake" the game is a massive over-exaggeration of the issues.

Xnemesis · June 2014

Well the dragon knight issues of ESO reminds me of when Warrior tanks were the best dps in wow for a bit... Silly Tanks

aleister · June 2014

sajackson wrote: »

aleister wrote: »

What are some examples of games that had especially troubled or controversial launches (WoW is not one of these) that went on to be successful?

That's not quite the case actually. WoW had a very troubled launch - they suffered from very bad server instability and bugged quests up until around patch 1.3 or 1.4 from what I remember. It's also worth noting that each expansion they've released even up to MoP has suffered from problems for at least a few days following launch.

A lot of people seem to see WoW with very rose-tinted glasses but trust me it has its fair share of problems.

Didn't mean to imply WoW had no issues. It certainly did: deep login queues, lag, server crashes, etc. A lot of this had to do with its popularity and the crushing demand. It started off popular, got even more popular in weeks after launch and went on to smash all records for subscribers, etc. It was never in any danger of player exodus in those early days and that's why I exclude it.

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

Everyone keeps saying, "well WOW had problems at launch too!!"

but I want to know...did WOW have flaws that were inherently in the way the game was designed, rather than just server issues and bugs? I'm genuinely asking cause I didn't play WOW at the beginning.

I played WoW from the beginning and as I mentioned above, it certainly had its issues. Most of those were pretty quickly addressed and once the game got going, for the average PVE player, it felt like a finished, polished game with a ton of content to experience. The class imbalance issues and other design issues that took longer to fix were not something the typical player would experience until they started seriously PVPing at higher levels.

srfrogg23 · June 2014

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

Everyone keeps saying, "well WOW had problems at launch too!!"

but I want to know...did WOW have flaws that were inherently in the way the game was designed, rather than just server issues and bugs? I'm genuinely asking cause I didn't play WOW at the beginning.

This game has problems that stem from the designing decisions of the developers, and pretty much require a remaking of the game. People can wait for bugs and lag to be fixed imo if the game has a good design at it's core. But I don't think people will wait for you to remake the game.

Did WOW have design problems that don't make sense? Anything equivalent to the VR system, stamina build/anything other than light armor and staves being irrelevant, and group phasing?

Yup. Aside from the balance issues with the classes and the way they were pigeon holed into certain roles (implied by design/enforced by players), there were really only 2 things to do at max level:

1. Gear up for/Run 40-Man raids until your face melted off. Other than that you could run the same old 5-Man dungeons or talk smack in the Trade Chat...
2. World PVP. Battlegrounds weren't introduced until almost a year after launch.

No scenarios, no pet battles, no timeless isle, no BGs, no silly random other things that I have forgotten for non-raiders and PVPers.

I almost forgot, the game- by design- would set you, as the player, up for 30 to 45 minute long hikes just to turn in a quest. You see, you didn't get your first mount until level 40. 40! And that thing set you back about 1010 gold (3-tier currency system: 100 copper= 1 silver, 100 silver = 1 gold, 10K copper = 1g, so 10,000X1010= 10,100,000 copper. Wanna guess how much copper enemies dropped in the early game? 1-5 copper per kill... take that Angry Joe!)

So, up until 40 you had to run EVERYWHERE unless you could find a flight path, which there were not nearly as many of as there are now- and they sucked up that money you were saving for your mount at 40.

Flight paths weren't connected either. Flying from Orgimmar to Tanaris? Don't leave your computer for long, you've got to hop on every single flight path separately.

Talents, talents were a waste of time. Seriously, +1% chance to crit or block? +1% damage for a certain spell, etc... Welcome to "cookie-cutter, elitists won't let you raid because you deviated from the desired spec ever-so-slightly" central.

Weapon skills! Talk about a stupid feature... You've been hacking and slashing away with 2-handed swords for your entire career as a Warrior and now you get a B.A. 2 handed AXE! Guess what you have to do now because you didn't use 2-handed axes from 1-60. You have to level up your 2-handed axe skill from 1 to 300 over the course of grinding mobs starting ALL THE WAY BACK AT LEVEL 5! That's right, that is how the weapon skills worked in vanilla WoW, you had to level them up individually. (Before you say it, "No", not like ESO)

If your weapon skills were too low, you would hit like a kitten if you hit at all because you weren't "proficient" with that weapon- get it???... sorry, rant /over.

But, then again, WoW didn't have to compete with WoW at release.

Shiroro · June 2014

Nothing in the last 10 years unless you consider ARR. If the July update doesn't fix VR leveling you can forget about console releases. The game is finished and won't even make it that far.

andersan · June 2014

@srfrogg23‌

Ehh.. BG's were introducted about 6-7 months later. Wasn't a full year. You are correct they had UO and EQ to compete with (less UO) but don't we expect a little more from our games 9 and a half years later?

kaosodin · June 2014

Dark age of camelot..... the most epic pvp rvr ever..... took them a few years to balance..... now the gwme is rocking and rolling 14 years later

serenity_painted · June 2014

WoW's rocky launch was beacuse it was far more popular than the devs could have imagined and they weren't prepared for the huge influx of players.
It's the kind of problem every publisher and dev wish they had.

It had loads of other issues sure, many of which people think are unacceptable now but the bar was low and people liked the game enough not to care about most of them.

All the statistics i've seen of all the hyped AAA MMO's that came after it peaked at launch only to nose dive after the first month and the kinda stable out.
If things turn around for ESO i'll be both thrilled and very, very surprised.

srfrogg23 · June 2014

andersan wrote: »

@srfrogg23‌

Ehh.. BG's were introducted about 6-7 months later. Wasn't a full year. You are correct they had UO and EQ to compete with (less UO) but don't we expect a little more from our games 9 and a half years later?

Of course, we can expect more from games a decade later, but that wasn't what I was responding to. I was talking about WoW's launch.

I do have to say that if you're going to make the WoW of now your expectation for what ever new games come out, then you're probably just setting yourself up for a world of disappointment. WoW wasn't even WoW when it released (if that makes any sense without the vocal inflection).

Now, if EVERY MMO were created by the same development team... well, yeah, you should expect every new MMO to be better and more refined than the last. But sadly, MMO Developers may respect each other, but they're still competing with each other. That means that one company is never going to share its trade secrets with another just for the sake of "making the players happy". Every development company has to figure out how to create their own product from scratch.

Can you really imagine Blizzard stopping by Carbine's offices with their "list of lessons learned" and telling the guys from Carbine, "Hey, here's some of the problems we ran into while trying to implement these features... by the way, we're sick of paying the bills, why don't you go out there and make the best MMO you can! Good Luck!"

What about ArenaNet sending some hints and tips to Funcom? No? Didn't think so. This is why we see so many of the same pitfalls being hit again and again by each and every developer out there. There is no such thing as a "benevolent competitor".

ShedsHisTail · June 2014

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Can you really imagine Blizzard stopping by Carbine's offices with their "list of lessons learned" and telling the guys from Carbine, "Hey, here's some of the problems we ran into while trying to implement these features... by the way, we're sick of paying the bills, why don't you go out there and make the best MMO you can! Good Luck!"

Didn't really have to since something like 15 of the Devs for Wildstar were on WoWs original development team.

Maverick827 · June 2014

Pretty much all MMOs with "troubled" launches that have turned things around have done so by going free to play.

I personally am a rational adult, so I don't hiss and turn away when someone says "free to play." I'd be fine if this game went that route as long as it's done correctly.

Lynnessa · June 2014

You know, I'm not convinced that ESO is doing as badly as some folks seem to think. The only evidence I've seen to support that conclusion is purely anecdotal and subjective.

stungateb14_ESO · June 2014

sajackson wrote: »

MrDenimChicken wrote: »

but I want to know...did WOW have flaws that were inherently in the way the game was designed, rather than just server issues and bugs?

Yes, they didn't really get the class balance sorted out until TBC, and even then there were still issues up until the present day.

In vanilla WoW if you were a Paladin the only role you could perform in end-game was healing because the tank & dps specs were laughable. They sorted out pally tanking in TBC and dps further down the line.

There were issues with other class\builds as well. Sometimes it just takes a while to figure out how to make all the competing elements of an MMO work, and its often a bit of a moving target anyway.

This game has problems that stem from the designing decisions of the developers, and pretty much require a remaking of the game.

I just can't bring myself to agree with this statement. Sure there are problems that are being worked on but a whole "remaking" of the game? I'm finding lots of aspects of the game that I enjoy and it way outweighs any of the problems I've hit so stating that they need to "remake" the game is a massive over-exaggeration of the issues.

Ret Paladins sucked because no heavy dps gear and no heavy healing gear but some healed in cloth but I was tanking on my Human Paladin long before TBC all through MC, BWL, AQ40, Naxx 40. Druids were the only disorganized class in vanilla with no leather protection, geal and no boomkin and was brought along for innervates but that was fixed in AQ20/40 and Naxx they still had issues with hitting protection cap that made them susceptible to crushing blows but still viable off tanks for MC farming before TBC.

I think a lot of people blow things out of proportion with WOWS launch when a lot of stability issues were related to battle.nets backbone infrastructure was still using Nexxus I believe then sometime in 2004 switched to ATT after launch they had to scramble to add a lot since none could foresee 3million people trying to simultaneously log in.

srfrogg23 · June 2014

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Can you really imagine Blizzard stopping by Carbine's offices with their "list of lessons learned" and telling the guys from Carbine, "Hey, here's some of the problems we ran into while trying to implement these features... by the way, we're sick of paying the bills, why don't you go out there and make the best MMO you can! Good Luck!"

Didn't really have to since something like 15 of the Devs for Wildstar were on WoWs original development team.

Eh... Those guys left Blizzard before WoW released. I'd bet my mother's grave that they didn't have access to all of Blizzard's "how to's" after they left, so they didn't get the benefit of knowing how to overcome the problems that Blizzard tackled after WoW had been live for a while.

I think it's safe to say that a whole slew of issues pop out of the woodwork after a game releases that weren't expected prior to launch, and the guys working for Carbine now weren't privy to that information after they left Blizzard... so, what are you trying to get at?

ers101284b14_ESO · June 2014

FF14 bombed because they released while it was still in development. Also I see a lot of people on here praise ARR but talk about a terrible launch and stupid design choices. Their launch had errors 9000 and 3001 which now 6 months later people still get. Super simple fights that are all scripted so it never changes but you have to run the same dungeons over and over again. Oh you did a dungeon? Great now run it 10000000000 more times to get your weapon. Oh your weapon you've been trying to get for 2 months popped finally but you don't get it because the other person of the same class needed it and won the roll by 1. So back to farming the same dungeon. Or how about being able to literally run from the last zone to the starting city in under 2 minutes. Or being able to spam auto attack and kill mobs 5 levels above you without fear. Or the only world content being fates which are like worse versions of rifts. You know the dolmens? Think about 20 of those Zerg fests popping in each zone right on top of your quest area. Or everything at endgame being instanced. You think this endgame is bad ARR you sit there waiting for an hour for people to join a duty so you can run the dungeon and will kick you out if you want to watch the cutscenes for the story, or if you make 1 small mistake, or admit you are new. Then back to waiting in duty finder. Exploring the world? Ha there's nothing to explore hate on needing a group to explore all you want still beats sitting in a town signing up for an instanced dungeon and watching as it pops and people withdraw for an hour straight, then finally by some miracle you've made it in and say hey I'm new so everyone rage quits and your left back into town waiting again. Think devs don't listen here? How about telling devs that fates are the worst thing ever and 90% of the community agreeing so they put every event inside of a fate. Then making you run level 5 fates for a 1% chance drop of 1 out of 8 items you need for a relic weapon. After farming level 5 fates for weeks you get 1 drop so guess what time to go do it 7 more times yay!! Lag? Yeah ARR built lag into their game just to make it a challenge. Nothing like being 3/4 of the way through the first of 10000000 fights your about to endure and an aoe pops so you run out of range then 10 seconds later you fly off the edge and your party wipes so everyone rage quits so back to duty finder. And people are calling that game a success. Building your character in ARR nope you get to build it 1 way if you don't you might as well not even play. I got kicked from a group by my own guild members because I didn't have all 30 points in stamina. PvP? How about an arena 5 on 5 where whoever loses their healer first is the loser, but healers can't be hit while jumping so it comes down to whose healer can jump the longest. Bots and RMT? How about the first 3 months not being able to even ignore RMT because there was no right click block option no you had to remember how to spell vjhxfgdshhdsfhjoppkhfdaad then go in and manually type it to block them. Or how about someone buys RMT gold then buys one of your items then you buy a friends weapon then that friend buys an item so all of you get banned and come back after a week only to find 90% of your gold taken by the gms. Yeah I'll take my ESO flop over the wildly amazing and successful ARR. I have more I could put here but it's already too long.

Noctisse · June 2014

@ers101284b14_ESO
I'd still call FFXIV a success.
Like you said, it has its issues.
But this thread isn't about ''perfect/fantastic/radical'' mmos, it's about ''Other games that overcame troubled launches & went on to be successful''.
FFXIV is a valid example of that.

Zershar_Vemod · June 2014

They should have learned to not listen to whiners and have kneejerk reactions.

ers101284b14_ESO · June 2014

Noctisse wrote: »

@ers101284b14_ESO
I'd still call FFXIV a success.
Like you said, it has its issues.
But this thread isn't about ''perfect/fantastic/radical'' mmos, it's about ''Other games that overcame troubled launches & went on to be successful''.
FFXIV is a valid example of that.

Yeah and I still can't figure out why. Their design is so terrible and people eat it up. It's like Bieber fans. You just sit back and think "WTF is wrong with you people"

Noctisse · June 2014

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Noctisse wrote: »

@ers101284b14_ESO
I'd still call FFXIV a success.
Like you said, it has its issues.
But this thread isn't about ''perfect/fantastic/radical'' mmos, it's about ''Other games that overcame troubled launches & went on to be successful''.
FFXIV is a valid example of that.

Yeah and I still can't figure out why. Their design is so terrible and people eat it up. It's like Bieber fans. You just sit back and think "WTF is wrong with you people"

Regardless, I'm afraid that this thread isn't about our personal opinions or extended analysis of the problems of other mmos.
It is about
1. mmos who are alive and kicking in spite of their problematic release
2. the positive aspects/factors that contributed to their current successful status, and
3. what can ESO developers learn from that.

ers101284b14_ESO · June 2014

Noctisse wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Noctisse wrote: »

@ers101284b14_ESO
I'd still call FFXIV a success.
Like you said, it has its issues.
But this thread isn't about ''perfect/fantastic/radical'' mmos, it's about ''Other games that overcame troubled launches & went on to be successful''.
FFXIV is a valid example of that.

Yeah and I still can't figure out why. Their design is so terrible and people eat it up. It's like Bieber fans. You just sit back and think "WTF is wrong with you people"

Regardless, I'm afraid that this thread isn't about our personal opinions or extended analysis of the problems of other mmos.
It is about
1. mmos who are alive and kicking in spite of their problematic release
2. the positive aspects/factors that contributed to their current successful status, and
3. what can ESO developers learn from that.

Well learning from ARR it's time to make everything an instance, shove dolmens down our throats, cut the size of the world by 90% and copy WoW all the way down to the fight mechanics. Get on it Zenimax its what the people want.

Amsel_McKay · June 2014

I beta tested EQ, EQ2, WOW, SWG, LotRO and ESO... the best "out of the gate" game in my humble opinion was LotRO, story graphics and servers (but it seemed to die fast). SWQ was a disaster... I played EQ and WOW way too long and was in the best guilds and played more then 60 hours a week... ESO is still keeping me interested (I'm a casual player now), but I could see how an younger version of me would hate ESO...

SFBryan18 · June 2014

Very common for video game forums to have members who believe the game is worse than it really is. Fact is, ESO has not even seen their biggest profits yet, which will come from the console version sales. So if you don't like the game, that's on you. I personally find this game a lot of fun to play, but what do I know, right? I wasn't one of the people who played the game to death, yet.

Here's a good question to ask yourself when considering how good a game is...

How much have you paid for the game, and how many hours have you played it?

If you've spent less than a dollar for each hour played, you can assume you got your moneys worth.

fyendiarb16_ESO · June 2014

When I really got into mmo's for the first time I was extremely forgiving to all the problems. I had played Ultima Online which bored the crap out of me and it wasn't until WoW came that I really got into the genre. I was not alone, as we all know or at least should know is that there was a huge inlfux of new mmo players thanks to the warcraft franchise and user friendly game play and most of all the massive amount of cash Blizzard spend on commercials on just about every medium they could get their hands on.

The game was flawed, very flawed. Many problems were related to the fact that it was far more successful than anyone could have expected, but many other problems were not.

One bug for example that stayed a long time was getting stuck trying to loot a resource node. There was no other solution than to relog and rejoin the many hours long queue to get back in. Another was the balancing of classes, something ESO gets they most complaints about. If you are in any doubt just google the very funny World of Roguecraft series that showed how insane the imbalance was for a long time, far longer than ESO has been released.

I could of course mention all the problems WoW had in the first couple of years (we got months worth of free game time over the first few years from Blizzard because of the massive downtimes and bugs). However all this happened in an entirely different mmo environment as we are in today.

Back then people were far more forgiving. I don't remember ever being angry over the fact that I lagged so much that it took over a minute for an action to actually take place. I laughed myself to tears, I was just too happy being inside Azeroth instead of viewing it topdown in another RTS game. The forums went crazy, but the majority kept flowing into their first mmo ever thanks to the massive marketing Blizzard gave the game.

These days we are long past the new massive influx of gamers into this genre. Most of us have played more than one mmo before and lose track of the bad things that happened when wow released and frustrated with all the bad releases since. The general tolerance for problems with mmo's is nowhere near what it was.

As has been said; if wow had released today it would have been a massive flop.

The Elder Scrolls Online has had a very decent release. There has been little downtime compared to many other releases and the bugs get fixed much faster than happened in the past. A very small example is the fact that to this very day Blizzard has not fixed female dwarf mounted position which is way too far to the back.

It took WoW years to get the game kinda bug free, years of loads of bots and goldsellers which in comparison Zenimax is doing a very good job with. We have just entered the third month and most bots are gone and the goldsellers are also less annoying than in the beginning.

You ask what other games have overcome troubled releases and thus say that ESO's release has been so troublesome that it has to overcome it fast or it will die off. I say the release has been rather smooth. I say the balancing is not good, but nowhere as bad as I have seen before.

Again I advice you to watch World of Roguecraft, you can find it anywhere.

So lighten up, enjoy the game and see the problems get fixed. Don't expect the impossible, however tempting that is and don't read too much into the doom and gloom posts on the forum.

Enjoy the game.

P.s. Sorry for the spelling mistakes and such and most of all the length of this post.

lioslinn · June 2014

fyendiarb16_ESO wrote: »

When I really got into mmo's for the first time I was extremely forgiving to all the problems. I had played Ultima Online which bored the crap out of me and it wasn't until WoW came that I really got into the genre. I was not alone, as we all know or at least should know is that there was a huge inlfux of new mmo players thanks to the warcraft franchise and user friendly game play and most of all the massive amount of cash Blizzard spend on commercials on just about every medium they could get their hands on.

The game was flawed, very flawed. Many problems were related to the fact that it was far more successful than anyone could have expected, but many other problems were not.

One bug for example that stayed a long time was getting stuck trying to loot a resource node. There was no other solution than to relog and rejoin the many hours long queue to get back in. Another was the balancing of classes, something ESO gets they most complaints about. If you are in any doubt just google the very funny World of Roguecraft series that showed how insane the imbalance was for a long time, far longer than ESO has been released.

I could of course mention all the problems WoW had in the first couple of years (we got months worth of free game time over the first few years from Blizzard because of the massive downtimes and bugs). However all this happened in an entirely different mmo environment as we are in today.

Back then people were far more forgiving. I don't remember ever being angry over the fact that I lagged so much that it took over a minute for an action to actually take place. I laughed myself to tears, I was just too happy being inside Azeroth instead of viewing it topdown in another RTS game. The forums went crazy, but the majority kept flowing into their first mmo ever thanks to the massive marketing Blizzard gave the game.

These days we are long past the new massive influx of gamers into this genre. Most of us have played more than one mmo before and lose track of the bad things that happened when wow released and frustrated with all the bad releases since. The general tolerance for problems with mmo's is nowhere near what it was.

As has been said; if wow had released today it would have been a massive flop.

The Elder Scrolls Online has had a very decent release. There has been little downtime compared to many other releases and the bugs get fixed much faster than happened in the past. A very small example is the fact that to this very day Blizzard has not fixed female dwarf mounted position which is way too far to the back.

It took WoW years to get the game kinda bug free, years of loads of bots and goldsellers which in comparison Zenimax is doing a very good job with. We have just entered the third month and most bots are gone and the goldsellers are also less annoying than in the beginning.

You ask what other games have overcome troubled releases and thus say that ESO's release has been so troublesome that it has to overcome it fast or it will die off. I say the release has been rather smooth. I say the balancing is not good, but nowhere as bad as I have seen before.

Again I advice you to watch World of Roguecraft, you can find it anywhere.

So lighten up, enjoy the game and see the problems get fixed. Don't expect the impossible, however tempting that is and don't read too much into the doom and gloom posts on the forum.

Enjoy the game.

P.s. Sorry for the spelling mistakes and such and most of all the length of this post.

Well said! I agree completely.though I personally never played wow I know enough people who did, and i played tons of MMOs myself - what you say rings true. a thoughtful nuanced post

I also found this launch smoother than most and yes they are adressing issues fairly quickly. And yes what I used to put up with in eq, uo or vanguard most people today couldn't stand for five minutes heh.