Veteran ranks should be optional

Chatoyancy · June 2014

I don't have a character in VR, so what I am about to say could be total nonsense. But I've formed this opinion based on comments by other players, and it feels logical enough to me that I thought was worth sharing.

But essentially, my thought is this: once a character hits level 50 / VR 1, character progression should end. This means no more new gear levels. A character who has finished the main content of the game is done, and that character has reached end-game. There should be no need to do the VRs in order to reach maximum vitality as a character.

From what I understand, in end-game, you want to make your character the best it can possibly be. Create the best gear, and so on. Therefore, remove those bonuses from getting VR levels.

What does that mean for VR1-12? VR1-12 WOULD be end-game; I think the content the VRs have now would be great for this. For the soloers/questers, you have the other faction zones. For people who like to group, there's also the other factions, plus the veteran dungeons and Craglorn. For those who like to PvP, there's Cyrodiil. And for those who like alts, you can start a new character with no real loss.

The problem I'm seeing is that right now, to really reach what people are considering end-game (making your character the best it can be), you have to reach VR12, which is a huge grind. Where this really sticks out is in PvP -- if you want to be the best PvPer, you HAVE to be VR12 because a VR12 has better gear. And for PvPers, doing all this additional non-PvP content just to be viable is not fun.

So what, in my opinion, should VRs be?

1. Just a number to give a sense of progress. All the levels themselves are optional and doesn't actually make your character stronger, but the number itself can increase. In this case, it doesn't seem like a problem that it would take forever to level -- you want it to take awhile so that you can keep people entertained with the same content for as long as possible.

2. Cosmetic rewards. I believe there are cosmetic outfits/disguises you get for reaching certain VRs? That's fine. I also wouldn't have a problem with there being VR armor that LOOKS better than non-VR armor, as long as the stats aren't better than non-VR armor.

3. Skyshards. While more skyshards IS progressing the character, I personally think it is progressing the character in a way that doesn't actually make one character better than another. Say you magically got enough skyshards to somehow get every skill in the game, that doesn't really make you a "better" character -- you can still only use 10 of them at a time. If anything, skyshards are more of a matter of convenience -- stopping you having to respec just because you want to try something new.

So in conclusion -- VRs should be end-game, and not be part of character progression.

Discuss?

Edit: Thanks to @Psychoke for the attribute point correction.

Psychoke · June 2014

just fyi you only get attribute points in leveling 1-50, so you end up with 49 attribute points to spend

Also, I would say that VR content is much more of a grind than the 1-50 leveling, and to not imbalance the effort equals reward there must be at least some sort of advantage even in PvP for having to go through the whole game instead of just 1/3rd of it (lvl 1-50).

It might not feel like it, or you might not like it, but VR content is 2/3rd of the game, so skipping it should in fact not make you equal to someone who did it.

Chatoyancy · June 2014

Psychoke wrote: »

just fyi you only get attribute points in leveling 1-50, so you end up with 49 attribute points to spend

Awesome, thanks for telling me. I corrected the OP.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Honestly, I agree with this.

Player reaches rank 50. He caps in gear, and attributes. Further VR ranks are nothing but extra skill points and bragging rights. They really don't even need a cap at all, just let players continue to level, over and over again.

But all gear? All of it caps at VR1. All mobs? Capped. VR becomes a vanity rank, nothing more.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

As a crafter with a very limited inventory, the *threat* that each content release will include new levels with possibly even more crafting materials to gather? Seems like a really bad cycle.

BrassRazoo · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Honestly, I agree with this.

Player reaches rank 50. He caps in gear, and attributes. Further VR ranks are nothing but extra skill points and bragging rights. They really don't even need a cap at all, just let players continue to level, over and over again.

But all gear? All of it caps at VR1. All mobs? Capped. VR becomes a vanity rank, nothing more.

I'm sorry but to me the first half of this post makes no sense, and the second half really makes the game sound boring.

eNumbra · June 2014

Chatoyancy wrote: »

3. Skyshards. While more skyshards IS progressing the character, I personally think it is progressing the character in a way that doesn't actually make one character better than another.

Feel free to not stack passives if you wish.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

BrassRazoo wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Honestly, I agree with this.

Player reaches rank 50. He caps in gear, and attributes. Further VR ranks are nothing but extra skill points and bragging rights. They really don't even need a cap at all, just let players continue to level, over and over again.

But all gear? All of it caps at VR1. All mobs? Capped. VR becomes a vanity rank, nothing more.

I'm sorry but to me the first half of this post makes no sense, and the second half really makes the game sound boring.

I'm not exactly sure why that would be boring. There would be two entire alliances and each new zone like craglorn available to any player who has reached 50.

The content is still available for the player. Players still receive no new attributes on each level, just like now. There just isn't an artificial gear/xp grind associated with the content.

The current system doesn't really make much sense.

zgrssd · June 2014

Chatoyancy wrote: »

3. Skyshards. While more skyshards IS progressing the character, I personally think it is progressing the character in a way that doesn't actually make one character better than another. Say you magically got enough skyshards to somehow get every skill in the game, that doesn't really make you a "better" character -- you can still only use 10 of them at a time. If anything, skyshards are more of a matter of convenience -- stopping you having to respec just because you want to try something new.

Addons are an integral part of the game. And they are fuly able to switch out gear and skill while out of combat fast. So you could be a healer, tank and DPS all just a keypress appart.
The only real limit is that you can only choose 1 morph.

There are also a bunch of passives. While most of them are tied to a specific skilline or having a skill of that line slotted/using it, there are a few universals.

rawne1980b16_ESO · June 2014

VR ranks are optional.

I hit VR 1 and opted to level something else rather than slog through that drivvle.

stevenpotter321b14_ESO · June 2014

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

VR ranks are optional.

I hit VR 1 and opted to level something else rather than slog through that drivvle.

Or the option to level a character in another game, which also seems popular. VR is neither challenging nor fun. It is just more work for less pay. Who doesn't want that?

Ser Lobo · June 2014

I'm enjoying the storyline in the other zones, but I no longer feel as if my character is actually progressing.

Best I can say, is I hope to get to max rank so I don't feel guilty about making each of my crafted armor pieces legendary. But even that is probably not going to happen, because they'll probably just keep raising the level cap, and I simply refuse to grind gear.

In every game I've played, I'm the type of player who will gladly play with 'sub par' gear. You'd be surprised how little effect gear has when you understand procedural AI.

Birfreben_Kinghelred · June 2014

stevenpotter321b14_ESO wrote: »

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

VR ranks are optional.

I hit VR 1 and opted to level something else rather than slog through that drivvle.

Or the option to level a character in another game, which also seems popular. VR is neither challenging nor fun. It is just more work for less pay. Who doesn't want that?

My fun started at VR, so I personally dont want that.

cisadanepajsuxrwb17_ESO · June 2014

They tried really hard to copy diablo's paragon level system. What they failed to realize however, that they are applying its concepts to an MMO

HorsePhysics · June 2014

cisadanepajsuxrwb17_ESO wrote: »

They tried really hard to copy diablo's paragon level system. What they failed to realize however, that they are applying its concepts to an MMO

Agreed, but in order to fix it they need to make it even more like the paragon system.

Lets take a look at what the old paragon levels in D3 did.

NUMBERS
Extremely small bonuses to stats
Increased magic find + Gold find.

That's your fix.

temjiu · June 2014

I agree OP. with a few caveats.

It really should have been this way:

you run the 1-50 content. once your done, the other 2 fractions areas open up for you (and choice here is again optional...you can do either one, but have to pick one to do and finish). ALL mobs in both zones are JUST level 50 mobs. period. no VR scaling. Now...this would form the base. players who just wanted to enjoy the content still could, either via alt or on their main. now...if you want a challenge (and or better gear) you would have OPTIONS at this point.

1) You do the VR content tiered with a level of difficulty based solely on your choice. do you do VR 1....VR 4....VR 10... you pick. higher difficulty tiers increase rewards, but ARE NOT MANDATORY. you get higher tiers of gear...AND higher chances of blue/purples/legendaries dropping. the higher the tier, the higher the chances (of course, the higher the challenge as well).

2) OR, you run group content, with a similar approach. it is tougher...you need to group for it, and it's tiered as well. you could even set it up so the lower level dungeons scale with group level, so you can run the dungeons you missed with your favorite team.

3) or you can PvP.

and VR would just be another way of describing gear TIERS. meaning they are ALL useable at level 50. but all the cool new gear is BoP...no grinding and selling that stuff from your unbalanced OP DK/Sorc build. you find gear, it's yours. We already have it so bound gear is useable across the account. keep it that way (perhaps make specific class gear bound to character, but normal gear can stay BoA).

To me that's really the best balance. all content is available for ALL class setups. micro-managing balance isn't a critical issue so early in the game with this setup, as most current build concepts (even stamina builds) can survive up through coldharbor content. This doesn't mean that they wouldn't have to balance classes, it just means that it wouldn't be as emergent, as players could complete 90% of the content with this design (instead of 1/3 of the content).

everyone wins in the above setup. everyone. You want a challenge, you tackle that level of difficulty, and you are REWARDED for choosing to do so. you just want to cruis through story content? go for it. all the mobs are lvl 50, and if you pick up some better gear through the process, it's all that much easier. you want to do neither, and instead group up? all the group dungeons are available, and tiered. have at it. PvP? well, its already scaled (though it could use some adjustment for lower levels now that the mobs are buffed). it has it's own issues, but its still a choice.

See? Thats the secret to a long lasting AAA MMO title. C H O I C E S. not cutting out hardcore players, but allowing them to get rewarded for their efforts. Not cutting out softcore players, but allowing them to experience the game all the way through. PvP players...allowing them an unbroken but scale-able environment where they can level, get rewards, and enjoy the PvP.

Current game - Forced questing leads to Forced solo-ing (if you want to do story) which leads to forced min-maxing (or playing FotM builds) which leads to forced grouping. NO ONE WINS IN THAT SCENARIO, except for a niche group of players.

temjiu · June 2014

Deleted, double post.