Increase 4-man dungeons to 5-man to allow Support role.
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Crisscross✭✭✭I don't see this doing much besides making queue times longer. As everyone said, people will probably just grab another DPS unless dungeon mob mechanics saw a significant overhaul.
Nothing wrong with 4 man groups as it is. Everyone should have at least 1 utility ability on their bar, and the tank should be the one most responsible for the miscellaneous CCs and buffs.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭taylorwilenskiub17_ESO wrote: »With the increase from 4-man groups to 5-man groups we would be allowed to have an additional role filled in dungeon runs, the support roll.
As it stands, there are many great looking / sounding support abilities but many players will opt to not choose them because tanks want all their skills to be tank oriented, DPS want their skills to be dps oriented, and healers are worried about keeping their team mates alive.
I would love to roll a support based character, granting my allies shield, damage, and speed buffs. I think this would add another extremely fun and interactive layer to the game.
I know it won't be implemented anytime soon, but if ZOS could get back to me on their thoughts as to if they are considering this for the future?
I think many players could get behind this!
Support roll ftw!
I also lament the extinction of the support role in MMORPGs. It added a new layer of strategy to the combat and gave players another way to play just as you say. So I agree with you. A fourth and official support role should be added.
In fact: I would like to see more roles than even this. Though I don't think making all of the dungeons 5-man would be necessary. The support role should be effective enough to where it could adequately fit into the current 4-man design and still be successful.
Subsequent posts are correct when they say all classes have utility that function outside of their chosen role. But that isn't good enough. Because the player will still be expected to make their primary focus a priority - where as if a support role was available a player could create a build that would be free to prioritize this sort of play-style.2 -
DeLindsay✭✭✭✭✭
✭This topic is moot, NOBODY would bring an actual support, just another DPS so the dungeon would finish faster to get each player their SP so they could go back to playing ESO solo again.2 -
Catflinger✭✭✭Subsequent posts are correct when they say all classes have utility that function outside of their chosen role. But that isn't good enough. Because the player will still be expected to make their primary focus a priority - where as if a support role was available a player could create a build that would be free to prioritize this sort of play-style.
What you're indirectly asking is for the game designers to create actual enforced group roles, just like in traditional MMOs; in other words, for them to give up on the idea of "play how you want" and on tuning dungeons around this idea.
I, for one, am really against this idea. Every other MMO out there is already like this. And when each and every one of us already has the tools at our disposal to play support as much as we want in group settings, I think it's really not the slightest bit necessary to even consider.
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Eris✭✭✭✭If they are going to go through the trouble to revamp the dungeons for 5 person, they should redesign them to be scalable for any group size (2-8 or such...)Side effects of reading messages on forums can cause nausea, head aches, spontaneous fits of rage, urination due to intense laughter, and sometimes the death of your monitor or other object in throwing range. If you find that you are reading forums more than 24 hours a day, please consult your nearest temporal physicist.0
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Catflinger wrote: »Subsequent posts are correct when they say all classes have utility that function outside of their chosen role. But that isn't good enough. Because the player will still be expected to make their primary focus a priority - where as if a support role was available a player could create a build that would be free to prioritize this sort of play-style.
What you're indirectly asking is for the game designers to create actual enforced group roles, just like in traditional MMOs; in other words, for them to give up on the idea of "play how you want" and on tuning dungeons around this idea.
I, for one, am really against this idea. Every other MMO out there is already like this. And when each and every one of us already has the tools at our disposal to play support as much as we want in group settings, I think it's really not the slightest bit necessary to even consider.
I don't understand what you are saying.
How would providing players with the option to identify themselves as a support role be any different than allowing them to identify themselves as a tank/dps/healing role in the context of enforcing group roles?
If anything: providing players with more options in which to identify their roles would enhance their ability to play how they want. It wouldn't lessen it.Edited by Jeremy on May 31, 2014 12:53PM0 -
reggielee✭✭✭✭everyone has a bit of support in their builds and I have been on lots of pugs where they were using those skills. Its not needed to add another slot in the pug finder for it and all that would happen is people would get another person in for dps. I just ran a dungeon with ease with only 3 players due to one dropping out, first time for all of us on level. adding another person would only make it even more boring and easyMama always said the fastest way to a man's heart is through his chest.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭everyone has a bit of support in their builds and I have been on lots of pugs where they were using those skills. Its not needed to add another slot in the pug finder for it and all that would happen is people would get another person in for dps. I just ran a dungeon with ease with only 3 players due to one dropping out, first time for all of us on level. adding another person would only make it even more boring and easy
That's a false assumption though. I am sure many players (myself included) would be happy to bring a support role along.
That being said, I don't feel adding another slot to the pug finder is necessary. Just give adequate support tools to where that class can increase the damage of his/her teammates to make up for any loss of damage that may be detrimental to the group.
Every MMO I have ever played had a more complex and interesting battle system when support roles were included. When they were removed, it made the combat less interesting, less strategic. Support roles are good for MMORPGs. Variety is the spice of life - and video games.
Edited by Jeremy on May 31, 2014 1:02PM0 -
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Kililin✭✭✭✭There is no real class interdependence, a sideeffect of enabling everyone to solo stuff.
This is the reason the support role of old was removed from more current designs.
The number of partymembers would hardly change it.
Probably it would even remove the tank role, because 4 DPS could burn or kite&burn everything down with some heals.
There was a time when a Crowd Controller, a bard, a buff(bot ; )er, a tank and a healer where mandatory in standard groups. You could maybe do without one of the 5, but it was far from optimal. This design is considered unfun since, because of i dont know the reason...0 -
Sandhya✭✭✭So what do you have your weapon swap for? Another set of skills that may or may not provide support / synergy...0
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Sandhya✭✭✭There was a time when a Crowd Controller, a bard, a buff(bot ; )er, a tank and a healer where mandatory in standard groups. You could maybe do without one of the 5, but it was far from optimal. This design is considered unfun since, because of i dont know the reason...
Because of the hassle it caused when forming groups. Having a population in the game with a nice even balance is very rare. That is why we got the trinity now, and that is why ESO has altered the trinity to a form where players can cover more than one part of it.Edited by Sandhya on May 31, 2014 6:18PM0 -
Nooblet✭✭✭✭Games that have support roles in dungeons typically lead to the support switching to dps because support is typically not needed(makes it slower vs having another dps)0 -
Ser Lobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭On the surface, I'd say that adding a 5th man to the group would do more to make players bring a 5th dps to kill mobs quicker.
A trend I see heavy in MMO's is that DPS is king. Outright damage is more powerful than strategic play. There are many reasons for this, including adds, boss HP, simplified AI, etc.
The best way to diversify it, is to have randomized mob intelligence (i.e. less predictable, more varied AI). Mobs that are randomly immune to certain types of damage (the boss that can only be damaged with melee attacks). Mobs that randomly pick on certain classes (anybody in light armor). Mobs that have the rare capability of sucking all the magicka in the room. Mobs that see through stealth. Mobs that stealth themselves. Etc.
The biggest lapse for me in the enjoyment of PvE, in damn near any game, is the predictability of AI. The biggest lapse for me in the usefulness of diversified groups, is the predictability of that group once the mechanics are learned.
I've yet to enjoy raiding in a single game, because after the first time or two, you've gotten the method down and it's all about hitting the right keys at the right time. Predictable, and time consuming does not equal fun in my book.Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
Na'Djin. Knight-Blade. Knight, vanguard, defender. Nightblade.
XBOX NARuze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.
He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.
This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I've found getting a decent healer is a bigger problem than getting a decent tank...
Too bad you're on EU :P
SWTOR and FF14 I know both use 4. EQ, EQ2 both used 6. WoW uses 5(raids are also multiples of 5, biggest ones were 8 groups). EQ2 raids scaled up to 24.
I think Aion was also 5. I did a grand total of one dungeon and the experience was awful so my cleric avoided pugs like the plague as a result.taylorwilenskiub17_ESO wrote: »With the increase from 4-man groups to 5-man groups we would be allowed to have an additional role filled in dungeon runs, the support roll.
As it stands, there are many great looking / sounding support abilities but many players will opt to not choose them because tanks want all their skills to be tank oriented, DPS want their skills to be dps oriented, and healers are worried about keeping their team mates alive.
I would love to roll a support based character, granting my allies shield, damage, and speed buffs. I think this would add another extremely fun and interactive layer to the game.
I know it won't be implemented anytime soon, but if ZOS could get back to me on their thoughts as to if they are considering this for the future?
I think many players could get behind this!
Support roll ftw!
A 5th spot will only bring another dps. 100% the case. So if you have 3 sorcs and a dk, you honesty think they bring a temp or NB just to be nice?
Exactly.1 -
If you're healer, let alone any other player in said four-man group, is a Templar, there are plenty of support will they can cast. Especially to help boost stamina and health recovery of other players. There is plenty of Magica to go around to multitask In these areas1
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Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Aaahhhhhhh EQLive pugs how I miss thee. The days where you KNEW players...didn't have a choice after pugging 3-6 hours with the same group especially when 90% of it was downtime including DURING combat lol.
Sit, Chat.....Stand, Cast, Sit....Chat....rinse repeat.1 -
Kililin✭✭✭✭There was a time when a Crowd Controller, a bard, a buff(bot ; )er, a tank and a healer where mandatory in standard groups. You could maybe do without one of the 5, but it was far from optimal. This design is considered unfun since, because of i dont know the reason...
Because of the hassle it caused when forming groups. Having a population in the game with a nice even balance is very rare. That is why we got the trinity now, and that is why ESO has altered the trinity to a form where players can cover more than one part of it.
Which in turn is the reason for no class interdependence and simplistic gameplay.
As long as theres enough dps nothing else matters. Yes i am aware that über tank + über heal can make do without any dps eventually but fast&efficient is all dps dependent. everything else is ballast.
I would rather have the hassle of forming groups, it was not impossible.
In fact in my experience it is the roughly the same today, in times of time and effort needed. Mostly because back then you needed people for everything, and you got to know people from lvl5 onwards. Now you are allowed to solo everything and this makes for a more difficult group building process later.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There was a time when a Crowd Controller, a bard, a buff(bot ; )er, a tank and a healer where mandatory in standard groups. You could maybe do without one of the 5, but it was far from optimal. This design is considered unfun since, because of i dont know the reason...
Because of the hassle it caused when forming groups. Having a population in the game with a nice even balance is very rare. That is why we got the trinity now, and that is why ESO has altered the trinity to a form where players can cover more than one part of it.
But it's no more a hassle than having to find a tank or a healer. So I find that to be a very weak reason for ditching the support role if that was the reasoning behind it.
The real reason I would guess is that many players these days just want to run in and burn everything. They can't be bothered with actually having to use some strategy intermingled with crowd control and support.Edited by Jeremy on June 1, 2014 12:33PM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »On the surface, I'd say that adding a 5th man to the group would do more to make players bring a 5th dps to kill mobs quicker.
A trend I see heavy in MMO's is that DPS is king. Outright damage is more powerful than strategic play. There are many reasons for this, including adds, boss HP, simplified AI, etc.
True. It's been the trend now for years to fashion gameplay around DPS. In the old days support abilities like crowd control for example were very important to the gameplay. And it wasn't at all unusual to see classes who excelled at such abilities as immobilization and restoring magic. Now it's mostly been watered down to the point it's just kill it before it kills you. Which quickly becomes boring and tedious.
And based on my experiences with other games, I would say the primary reason for this trend is a weakened enemy offense. This allows players to rack them all up and then burn them down without dying in the process. They call it speed runs. I call it stupid.
I first encountered this phenomenon on World of Warcraft and it's been spreading like a cancer through-out the genre ever since.Edited by Jeremy on June 1, 2014 12:49PM2 -
Kililin✭✭✭✭ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »On the surface, I'd say that adding a 5th man to the group would do more to make players bring a 5th dps to kill mobs quicker.
A trend I see heavy in MMO's is that DPS is king. Outright damage is more powerful than strategic play. There are many reasons for this, including adds, boss HP, simplified AI, etc.
True. It's been the trend now for years to fashion gameplay around DPS. In the old days support abilities like crowd control for example were very important to the gameplay. And it wasn't at all unusual to see classes who excelled at such abilities as immobilization and restoring magic. Now it's mostly been watered down to the point it's just kill it before it kills you. Which quickly becomes boring and tedious.
And based on my experiences with other games, I would say the primary reason for this trend is a weakened enemy offense. This allows players to rack them all up and then burn them down without dying in the process. They call it speed runs. I call it stupid.
I first encountered this phenomenon on World of Warcraft and it's been spreading like a cancer through-out the genre ever since.
It is also due to shorter fights, one prime reason for e.g. bards in caster heavy groups was mana regeneration of some sort.
AE Farm groups exist for very long before WoW, but they needed special strategy and setup.
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Nijjion✭✭✭✭I like the Idea... 4 is way too small for group size in an MMO.NijjijjioN - DK - AR27NijjioN - NB -Daggerfall CovenantThe Nice Guys GuildEverQuest -> Dark Age of Camelot -> Ragnarok Online -> Cabal Online -> Guild Wars 1 -> Warhammer Online -> Vindictus -> SWTOR -> Tera -> Guild Wars 2 -> Elder Scrolls Online ->
Eagerly awaiting Camelot Unchained.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »On the surface, I'd say that adding a 5th man to the group would do more to make players bring a 5th dps to kill mobs quicker.
A trend I see heavy in MMO's is that DPS is king. Outright damage is more powerful than strategic play. There are many reasons for this, including adds, boss HP, simplified AI, etc.
True. It's been the trend now for years to fashion gameplay around DPS. In the old days support abilities like crowd control for example were very important to the gameplay. And it wasn't at all unusual to see classes who excelled at such abilities as immobilization and restoring magic. Now it's mostly been watered down to the point it's just kill it before it kills you. Which quickly becomes boring and tedious.
And based on my experiences with other games, I would say the primary reason for this trend is a weakened enemy offense. This allows players to rack them all up and then burn them down without dying in the process. They call it speed runs. I call it stupid.
I first encountered this phenomenon on World of Warcraft and it's been spreading like a cancer through-out the genre ever since.
It is also due to shorter fights, one prime reason for e.g. bards in caster heavy groups was mana regeneration of some sort.
AE Farm groups exist for very long before WoW, but they needed special strategy and setup.
Shorter fights is part of it also because it makes resource management less of a concern. So I agree with you on that.
AE farm groups did exists before WoW. You are right. But they were unique to certain situations. It wasn't until later in World of Warcraft that I saw this kind of play style become fundamental and prevalent through-out entire dungeons and the standard play style. That is what I meant.
Edited by Jeremy on June 1, 2014 1:05PM0 -
BGKSoul ShrivenAdding a 5th slot will just allow people going with 3 DPS instead of 2, no one will want a support for this slot.
This will have the merit to ease the overall grouping however, as we have too many DPS for so little tanks.0 -
PF1901✭✭✭
Untrue. People seem to have this simplified mindset ignoring the fact how much they could benefit from a support char (but since they usually don't see big damage / heal counters coming from such a char....). Besides the fact support chars can be a lot of fun to play.Games that have support roles in dungeons typically lead to the support switching to dps because support is typically not needed(makes it slower vs having another dps)
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Kililin✭✭✭✭I really think it was one of the worst design decisions for mmorpg's to remove the roles of crowd controller, debuffer, support. And they are not easily re-introduced by just opening a 5th slot, sadly...
It removes depth from group content and "skill" is animation cancelling or doing a rotation split second on point to max dps, and not step into neatly marked AE spells (or adhere to some gimmicky boss mechanic).2
