Mistakes were made (Veteran Ranks)

Rofaka · May 2014

And that's okay, but when you make a mistake, it's up to you to step up, say 'I've made a mistake' and fix it. I believe I'm not the only one who thinks Veteran Ranks were a bad idea. I can't count on 4 hands how many people I've seen complain about them.

Here's whats wrong (IMO);

Difficulty is too high. This is probably because most people don't have the patience to craft new optimised gear every single Veteran Rank. Which is normal. Veteran Ranks aren't endgame, it's just more leveling content but they named it differently.
Too much grindstone. Who wants to spend a few more weeks after hitting cap before they can enjoy the actual endgame content with their friends?
Endgame content will be wasted away. When Craglorn was added, the Veteran level cap was raised. If Zenimax were to do this with every new zone, the last one would become just more leveling content. If we could just have this all normalised for level 50, we'd have A TON of endgame to enjoy.

That's why everything should be normalised to level 50 and Veteran Ranks should be a prestigious reward. That way, people can enjoy optimising their gear, we'd have much more endgame and people who have already leveled up some Veteran Ranks won't lose their progress. We also won't be forced to quest grind, people who like to quest like me can do it at their own pace to earn the achievements titles and prestigious Veteran Ranks.

Don't give me any of that 'I've done it so everyone has to' bullsh. If you think that way you're being very selfish. Next to that, if you have already done it and this would be implemented, it would be more enjoyable to roll an extra character and build it up for endgame. On top of that, people will probably stay instead of being discouraged to get to VR700 to play endgame, keeping the game alive instead of making it roll into a free2pay2win model.

tldr; Veteran Ranks should be normalised to level 50 and Veteran Ranks should be a cosmetic/prestige reward.

Discuss.

GrimCyclone · May 2014

Rofaka wrote: »

Mistakes were made

That's will be on this game's epitaph.

"Here lies ESO...
...Mistakes were made."

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · May 2014

Have you seen how little veteran ranks mean? V10 gear is about 10% stronger than lvl 50 gear.

The big difference is that high veteran players have been forced to become better players in order to survive and overcome what they have faced.

The difficulty increase every veteran level but you don't become stronger, so you have to learn to get on.

Taking on the challenge of getting up veteran levels is far more entertaining and interesting than farming and repeat farming for gear.

In pvp once you are V1 you are competitive if you are a good player, that is when you no longer get any ability or cap problems in Cyrodiil.

jeevin · May 2014

I don't think VR zones are too difficult at all. I play as a Templar up to VR5 and I like visiting the VR zones. But I don't think we should be forced to play these zones to level. It's tedious and takes away from what can be really enjoyable content if played at your own pace or when you feel like it.

I'm not sure what the answer is but something needs to be done because most players are just burning themselves out trying to rush through good content to reach max level.

Epona222 · May 2014

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Have you seen how little veteran ranks mean? V10 gear is about 10% stronger than lvl 50 gear.

The big difference is that high veteran players have been forced to become better players in order to survive and overcome what they have faced.

The difficulty increase every veteran level but you don't become stronger, so you have to learn to get on.

Taking on the challenge of getting up veteran levels is far more entertaining and interesting than farming and repeat farming for gear.

In pvp once you are V1 you are competitive if you are a good player, that is when you no longer get any ability or cap problems in Cyrodiil.

Good luck enjoying endgame with the other few who persisted.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · May 2014

Epona222 wrote: »

Good luck enjoying endgame with the other few who persisted.

The thing is, veteran levels and Cyyrodiil is THE endgame, there is nothing waiting for you at V12.

There is no gear raiding and thank god for that, this game actually make sense.

Rofaka · May 2014

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Good luck enjoying endgame with the other few who persisted.

The thing is, veteran levels and Cyyrodiil is THE endgame, there is nothing waiting for you at V12.

There is no gear raiding and thank god for that, this game actually make sense.

The fact that there's nothing waiting for you at VR12 is the more reason to make veteran ranks a prestige/cosmetic reward ^^

and yes, thank the eight that there's no such thing as raid or PvP gear, imagine having to get new leveling, raid and PvP gear every Veteran Rank :')

p.hurst1b16_ESO · May 2014

I like the VR system. Triples the basic quest content, all the delves and dungeons to find. World bosses and Dolmens to beat. Veteran Dungeons. Games have done elite or master or expert dungeons before.

This game needs to introduce a few daily quests (not trivial kill x and gather some quest mats). By this I mean Veteran dungeon runs. Daily random veteran for your tier with a solid reward such as 750g 10000VP per tier, a Grand soul gem and a roll on a blue item list that contains jewellery and weapons only, not armour.

Give players some sense of being something more than they were on the road to 50. VR1 is nothing really, start off as a scrub in a new campaign, craft some slightly better gear and optional Veteran toggle on dungeons you already did.

The dungeons themselves are not a draw for me. I am quite picky about my gear and do not want boss drops and such.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · May 2014

Rofaka wrote: »

The fact that there's nothing waiting for you at VR12 is the more reason to make veteran ranks a prestige/cosmetic reward ^^

I disagree, the increased difficulty in veteran levels challenges you to become a better player. It is fun to face that challenge and you feel great when you are able to do things now you couldn't do a week ago and you know it is because you have improved.

As I said you really don't become more powerful as you level up veteran levels, but you have to make yourself better, and I mean you the player, not your character.

Metacon · May 2014

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Taking on the challenge of getting up veteran levels is far more entertaining and interesting than farming and repeat farming for gear.

Maybe thats true for you but I for myself think that Veteran Zones are a stupid, boring grindfest. And the higher you get the more the game likes to smack you in the face.

And that a pity because I enjoyed playing from level 1- 50 very much.

I dont need a second boring job that I have to grind into... even less when I have to pay for it.

I pay for being entertained. I dont pay for hitting an insurmountable brick wall, being *forced* to play content of *ENEMY* alliances.

On contrary what you say. the higher veteran ranks are allowed to wear better gear... Even if the difference in levels might be marginal.. a V1 player with a weapon has 100 damage weapon while a V10 gets a weapon with 135 damage?... to me thats not 10%.. thats 35% difference.

In addition the high veteran players have access to set gear with nice set-boni. So while a v1 player has to eat all damage that I deal.... My high-veteran armor set negates 5% of all his damage... and another 20% on top if it happens to be AOE.

Would you STILL pretent that the enemy v1 and me are fighting on even ground? No we're not.

I Wonder how Zenimax is going to pay their bills if only a few-selected elitist players in the veteran ranks keep their subscriptions

Let the players vote with their wallets and we see the result in the end.

WilliamTee · May 2014

Vet content is a challenge. That's a GOOD thing.

There's actually far LESS grind than many other MMOs at max level (reputation dailies anyone?)

The fact that expanded content comes with a selection of different ways to play (quests/dungeons/trials) means there's a bit more freedom. The two extra ranks available are a necessary incentive to try out all this content they've slaved over.

Of course, zeni neglected the reality that a lot of people would simply ignore some of the best quests in the game and find ways to level through farming/self-inflicted grind (Kardala/Balameth/Anomolies/Burial sites)

the_falcorrwb17_ESO · May 2014

I do not see the issue with Veteran zones.
Are they hard? Not really.
Do they feel like a grind? Sure, but given the alternate I like it.
Normalise everything to Level 50 and I probably couldn't be bothered once I hit 50. At least going through each zone feeds my obsession with gathering achievements.

Rofaka · May 2014

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Rofaka wrote: »

The fact that there's nothing waiting for you at VR12 is the more reason to make veteran ranks a prestige/cosmetic reward ^^

I disagree, the increased difficulty in veteran levels challenges you to become a better player. It is fun to face that challenge and you feel great when you are able to do things now you couldn't do a week ago and you know it is because you have improved.

As I said you really don't become more powerful as you level up veteran levels, but you have to make yourself better, and I mean you the player, not your character.

Playing endgame would do exactly the same to a player, even without the tedious obligated quest grind. I'm not saying: remove the Veteran Ranks altogether, nor should endgame be made easy.

A lot of players would enjoy the game more if endgame was more available to them. I don't want to see this game suffer because people have too much of a hard time to get to the endgame and they can't enjoy the ride there because of that.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · May 2014

I am far from an elite player, V4 atm with a combination vampire kiss/magnus set on a DW/Bow/Vamp NB. Lvl 35-50 was so boring I almost fell asleep and it it hadn't been for my great guild I might have stopped.

With veteran levels I actually have to play the game, dodge, cc, block actively to stay alive and group up from time to time to get on.

Yes you die several times every hour mostly because the game cannot figure out what target you are fighting so it breaks the stuns but at least you are not bored.

Rofaka · May 2014

the_falcorrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I do not see the issue with Veteran zones.
Are they hard? Not really.
Do they feel like a grind? Sure, but given the alternate I like it.
Normalise everything to Level 50 and I probably couldn't be bothered once I hit 50. At least going through each zone feeds my obsession with gathering achievements.

Even if endgame was at level cap, you could still enjoy getting achievements, I like it a lot as well. People like you and me can enjoy going trough extra zones for achievements, but for people who don't care for them, the actual endgame at VR12 is a huge 12-level grind away.

And what if my friends play Craglorn, but I still have to do all those zones before I can join them? A lot of content is locked away behind a MASSIVE requirement, isn't that just silly? Normalising all the endgame would give everyone so much more to enjoy!

If you wouldn't be bothered to play the game beyond the level cap, then the game probably isn't for you...

seneferab16_ESO · May 2014

Rofaka wrote: »

Playing endgame would do exactly the same to a player, even without the tedious obligated quest grind. I'm not saying: remove the Veteran Ranks altogether, nor should endgame be made easy.

A lot of players would enjoy the game more if endgame was more available to them. I don't want to see this game suffer because people have too much of a hard time to get to the endgame and they can't enjoy the ride there because of that.

I agree with this.

I don't mind the difficulty or questing in the other factions zones, but I do mind that I am "forced" to do it, and in the absolutely shittiest and lamest way possible. The crossover between normal zones and Vet zones was the cheapest and most paper thin explanation I have ever seen in a game. No quests to get there, no feeling of being rewarded with these new huge zones of content, just a "Oh btw, have you ever wondered if you woke up in the other factions? No? Oh well, here ya go anyway."

The zones should be made optional, and veteran levels should mean nothing except a fluff title. Normalise the gear and the content, so I can choose the zone I want to go to and not be forced to do them in the same linear fashion as when I leveled. Make exploration, skyshards and the occasional rare loot the reward.

Ruddertail · May 2014

Rofaka wrote: »

And that's okay, but when you make a mistake, it's up to you to step up, say 'I've made a mistake' and fix it. I believe I'm not the only one who thinks Veteran Ranks were a bad idea. I can't count on 4 hands how many people I've seen complain about them.

Here's whats wrong (IMO);
Difficulty is too high. This is probably because most people don't have the patience to craft new optimised gear every single Veteran Rank. Which is normal. Veteran Ranks aren't endgame, it's just more leveling content but they named it differently.

Too much grindstone. Who wants to spend a few more weeks after hitting cap before they can enjoy the actual endgame content with their friends?

Endgame content will be wasted away. When Craglorn was added, the Veteran level cap was raised. If Zenimax were to do this with every new zone, the last one would become just more leveling content. If we could just have this all normalised for level 50, we'd have A TON of endgame to enjoy.

Discuss.

Okay, I'll discuss.

1) If anything, I didn't find veteran zones to be challenging enough. I can still play everything outside craglorn just fine, even in level 50 gear if I feel like it. Veteran gear gets a minimal upgrade per rank.

2) Doing quests isn't grinding. Grinding is when you kill mobs over and over again because you can't get enough levels from doing actual content. Quests are content, and they're fun, at that. Also, a few weeks? I think it took me a few days.

3) Is more levelling content a bad thing? You just said there's too much grinding. Sure the game could do with more endgame, but do you want more endgame or less grinding?

Rofaka · May 2014

Ruddertail wrote: »

Rofaka wrote: »

And that's okay, but when you make a mistake, it's up to you to step up, say 'I've made a mistake' and fix it. I believe I'm not the only one who thinks Veteran Ranks were a bad idea. I can't count on 4 hands how many people I've seen complain about them.

Here's whats wrong (IMO);
Difficulty is too high. This is probably because most people don't have the patience to craft new optimised gear every single Veteran Rank. Which is normal. Veteran Ranks aren't endgame, it's just more leveling content but they named it differently.

Too much grindstone. Who wants to spend a few more weeks after hitting cap before they can enjoy the actual endgame content with their friends?

Endgame content will be wasted away. When Craglorn was added, the Veteran level cap was raised. If Zenimax were to do this with every new zone, the last one would become just more leveling content. If we could just have this all normalised for level 50, we'd have A TON of endgame to enjoy.

Discuss.

Okay, I'll discuss.

1) If anything, I didn't find veteran zones to be challenging enough. I can still play everything outside craglorn just fine, even in level 50 gear if I feel like it. Veteran gear gets a minimal upgrade per rank.

2) Doing quests isn't grinding. Grinding is when you kill mobs over and over again because you can't get enough levels from doing actual content. Quests are content, and they're fun, at that. Also, a few weeks? I think it took me a few days.

3) Is more levelling content a bad thing? You just said there's too much grinding. Sure the game could do with more endgame, but do you want more endgame or less grinding?

Firstly, you say that, yet there's tons of posts stating otherwise, and you can't do craglorn with level 50 gear.

Secondly, grinding is repeating the same thing over and over, this can be killing mobs, it can also be questing. (aka; running from 'A' to 'B' all day) on top of that, I'm probably not the only one who does other things than play video games all day, and when I do, I also like to play other games, when I play this one, I like to play endgame.

Lastly, that was the whole point... people want to play endgame at level cap, not level more after level cap... If they made it so that there was less grinding, the whole run to VR12 would be extra endgame instead of an obligation, it works both ways!

ShADoW0s · May 2014

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Have you seen how little veteran ranks mean? V10 gear is about 10% stronger than lvl 50 gear.

The big difference is that high veteran players have been forced to become better players in order to survive and overcome what they have faced.

The difficulty increase every veteran level but you don't become stronger, so you have to learn to get on.

Taking on the challenge of getting up veteran levels is far more entertaining and interesting than farming and repeat farming for gear.

In pvp once you are V1 you are competitive if you are a good player, that is when you no longer get any ability or cap problems in Cyrodiil.

Not actually true, you get attribute points each Vr and also game spell/armor pen each Vr as well.

Prettiboi · May 2014

I cannot take seriously any thread post that claims ESO's difficulty is too hard.

Epona222 · May 2014

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Rofaka wrote: »

The fact that there's nothing waiting for you at VR12 is the more reason to make veteran ranks a prestige/cosmetic reward ^^

I disagree, the increased difficulty in veteran levels challenges you to become a better player. It is fun to face that challenge and you feel great when you are able to do things now you couldn't do a week ago and you know it is because you have improved.

As I said you really don't become more powerful as you level up veteran levels, but you have to make yourself better, and I mean you the player, not your character.

I don't want to be challenged to be a better player, I want to have fun. I have plenty of challenges in my life, I don't actually need a computer game to provide me with any sense of challenge or achievement, because I have that on a daily basis anyway.

Tannakaobi · May 2014

I don't agree with the reasons, so:

Here's whats wrong (IMO);

It's a crap idea....

What I mean by this is it's lame, it breaks any real faction loyalty and immersion. They should have made it almost the same, but changed each maps faction quest-line for espionage and sabotage, undermining the target faction at every step, you being a real thorn inside each faction, by the end you should be exposed and hated. When I say exposed, obviously as intended by the player. Exposing yourself, so to speak.

For example: (Spoiler Alert AD)

In Auridon, rather than follow the queen you could follow The veiled Queen and help sabotage all the ruins and temples. Start off the attacks on each town eventually taking out one of the Queens most trusted advisers. That kind of thing.

There should be less quests with higher XP and more mobs to grind. So if you did so choose you could skip some quests.

I also like the idea of a PVE arena, so you could quite literately grind mobs in one spot for the entire VR with options to group up too. Rewards could be comparable to questing loot and skill points. This may sound a little dull but there is so much that can be done. It would be good if there were leaderboards with the top ten being showcased (other players can sit and watch) to give it that 'arena' feeling.

I'd like to see skill points for PVP rewards too. Have them available to buy for PVP currency. Skill points could be capped so as to fit into the set up.

All this would keep everyone happy.

- More story for RP and PVE.
- An area to grind for grinders.
- PVP possibilities.
- The option to mix it up and do all three.

It wouldn't even be that hard, most of the leg work has been done and it would be much less work than say an entire map.

Rofaka · May 2014

Epona222 wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Rofaka wrote: »

The fact that there's nothing waiting for you at VR12 is the more reason to make veteran ranks a prestige/cosmetic reward ^^

I disagree, the increased difficulty in veteran levels challenges you to become a better player. It is fun to face that challenge and you feel great when you are able to do things now you couldn't do a week ago and you know it is because you have improved.

As I said you really don't become more powerful as you level up veteran levels, but you have to make yourself better, and I mean you the player, not your character.

I don't want to be challenged to be a better player, I want to have fun. I have plenty of challenges in my life, I don't actually need a computer game to provide me with any sense of challenge or achievement, because I have that on a daily basis anyway.

normalising VR's to level 50 and making them a prestige/cosmetic reward would make it more fun for everyone, whilst keeping the challenge for those willing to take it. All that while everyone can enjoy endgame.

Rofaka · June 2014

Thanks for your opinion @Tannakaobi. Either way, the endgame as it is now can't stay. People are drastically leaving. Cyrodiil is almost empty most of the times now and guild activity is at an all time low, I really want to stress that something has to change.

Darrett · June 2014

I mainly just want to see alternate leveling paths for VR levels. Getting to VR 1 and having to go through enemy content, killing low end creatures scaled up to VR ranks is ridiculous.

Craglorn should have been set up as alternate questing/hunting for VR 1-12 in the open world content.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Rofaka wrote: »

Thanks for your opinion @Tannakaobi. Either way, the endgame as it is now can't stay. People are drastically leaving. Cyrodiil is almost empty most of the times now and guild activity is at an all time low, I really want to stress that something has to change.

Aye, the three 'trade' guilds I'm in, all with over 450 people have not had more than 20-40 people online at any one time in weeks. Guild trading is all part of the problem imo too.

They have shot themselves in the foot now with VR. How can they bring in new content that is 1-10VR, people that have done the current VR will feel let down, but then how can they add more content VR12+ the people that don't want to play other factions quests will feel let down.

Personally, if it was my game, I'd make a new map with levels 50-60 and give all the people with VR 5 or above a shiny new war horse or pet. and all the people at VR10 a title, Veteran Master maybe.

But first they need to fix the class balance issues for PVP.

Emperor · June 2014

The game isn't the problem. It's the PLAYERS. Here me out.

Everyone enjoyed the leveling process from 1-50, but when they got to veteran rank something changed in their mind set. They thought that they should be done and max level right then and there. They didn't want to do the other faction's quests and other massive amount of content even though they had so much fun with the first faction.

Why are people thinking this way? Personally I think it is because getting one veteran rank takes MUCH longer than a normal level so people automatically see it as a grind fest. If there were 50 more veteran levels in each faction I imagine people seeing it differently.

The PLAYERS need to understand that this is not a cookie-cutter MMO. The end game does NOT start at max level. It starts at V1 and ends at V12 until they add more end game content and make new veteran ranks. The sooner people understand this simple concept the sooner people can really enjoy the game and stop b'tching on forums 24/7.

RianaTheBosmer · June 2014

This game needs a real rethinking by the devs. They need to make solo content groupable. They need to get rid of the vet content so people can make alts. They need to make Craglorn the vet content.

I have no problem doing vet content but what good is doing it if I lose the ability to roll an alt because well...already done that. And for blessed sake, solo content in an MMO....M.....M.......O.

JessieColt · June 2014

Veteran Content isn't "end game". It is a way for the players to experience the other Alliances content and regions, and still get XP for doing so.

It is a great way for players to get access to all achievement possibilities regarding skyshards, dungeons, anchors, region bosses, etc. without being seen as an "enemy" when you enter those zones.

I personally find it is a very novel way of giving users access to a crap ton of more content than would be available if everything died when you finished Coldharbour at level 50.

Attorneyatlawl · June 2014

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

Veteran Content isn't "end game". It is a way for the players to experience the other Alliances content and regions, and still get XP for doing so.

It is a great way for players to get access to all achievement possibilities regarding skyshards, dungeons, anchors, region bosses, etc. without being seen as an "enemy" when you enter those zones.

I personally find it is a very novel way of giving users access to a crap ton of more content than would be available if everything died when you finished Coldharbour at level 50.

Quoted for truth. I think it was a clever way to make use of all factions' content for everyone... also, OP, the vet content isn't very tough on any of the classes including my VR9 almost 10 nightblade, and no, he isn't in "optimized gear every level-up" like you mentioned in the thread starting post.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Emperor wrote: »

The game isn't the problem. It's the PLAYERS. Here me out.

Everyone enjoyed the leveling process from 1-50, but when they got to veteran rank something changed in their mind set. They thought that they should be done and max level right then and there. They didn't want to do the other faction's quests and other massive amount of content even though they had so much fun with the first faction.

Why are people thinking this way? Personally I think it is because getting one veteran rank takes MUCH longer than a normal level so people automatically see it as a grind fest. If there were 50 more veteran levels in each faction I imagine people seeing it differently.

The PLAYERS need to understand that this is not a cookie-cutter MMO. The end game does NOT start at max level. It starts at V1 and ends at V12 until they add more end game content and make new veteran ranks. The sooner people understand this simple concept the sooner people can really enjoy the game and stop b'tching on forums 24/7.

I think you are missing the point. Why are people thinking this way?

I'll tell you why I'm thinking this way. It's poor story telling. The kind of idea you would expect in a child's homework story. I don't want to be a hero of AD after running with EP. I detest AD and would rather see them burn. put me in front of Queen Ayrenn and I will slit her throat, not bow down to her every whim, come on FFS this is Elder Scrolls.

In Skyrim did you follow the Stormcloaks and then think er.. nah and move to the Imperial Legion? Not without re-rolling.

Your concept completely ignores PVP players, I think you and the developers need to understand that many different people will be attracted by a TES MMO for different reasons and they should aim to cater for everyone. I have nothing against VR in theory. The combat difficulty is the only thing it has going for it. However it is poorly executed with little to no thought in the process. All they have done is increase the health and hits of each mob. See my post above, it would not be hard to make the VR worthwhile in terms of story.

If there were 50 more veteran levels in each faction of course people would see it differently, it would fit in with the story and not stink of copy, paste and repeat. If truth be told I think most people would have preferred to wait a couple of months and got the content they should have. If Craglorn is the 'real' end game content then it should have been in the first release. With solo content.

The sooner the developers understand the simple concept that people don't like lazy development the sooner people can really enjoy the game and the way VR have been done is lazy. However people will NEVER stop b'tching on forums.