Balance idea (v2)

dc1509 · May 2014

The issue:

Stamina is being used for the utility abilities, like sprint/hide/block/interrupt/roll, which makes stamina users more fragile and confused.

The solution:

To implement another bar, just like the horse stamina bar, which is solely used as a resource for the sprint/hide/block/interrupt/roll abilities only. So the stamina pull is exclusively available for the damage abilities only.

Welcome discuss.

Leaving the old post here for convenience.

1. Leave stamina alone. Make it usable by the sprint/hide/block/interrupt/roll activities ONLY.
No spells or abilities should consume this stat.
Remove the damage part from the cast interruption, or lower it so stamina won't be abused as a damage resource. It should remain a utility resource ONLY.

2. Let all spells and abilities of all kinds use magika as a source.

3. Rename magika to something else, to prevent it's name being a suggestion for "magic" skills only. I will call it "mana" for the sake of simplicity.

4. Balance the damage of single target spells and abilities strictly by the amount of mana needed to cast/use them. Add the additional effects cost, like stun on the sorceror's crystal shards to the final cost of the spell/ability. Reduce the cost of the spell if the cast time is required. Make a strict equation from this.

So, the final damage will be based on the amount of mana(+cast time) spent.
Heavy resource cost spells/abilities will be less spamable, so players will think twice before placing many of them on their bar.

Players will be required to find their preferred balance based on their playstyle. Nuke/burst damage and then wait for the Abilities resource regen, or maintain stable DPS with the possibility to nuke/burst when needed (I know this actually sounds like the current system, but it's not exactly working at the moment as far as I can see).

5. Balance the damage and the amount of targets affected by the AOE spells/abilities, according to the amount of mana spent vs the number of targets affected. (Or use any similar equation for calculating the final spell/ability cost based on the damage output provided, considering the amount of affected targets, or their unlimited number, which is preferred actually)

6. remove the %-based cost from the "dodge roll"/"brake free". Feel like need another possibility to brake free or do a dodge roll ? Invest something into stamina.

Considering the described changes, there is a chance to actually balance every single spell/ability (IMHO).

Think about it. The described skills/abilities scheme is properly working in Diablo3 (kind of, we can't use different resource pulls for each class here), and the current ESO system sucks hard due to the different resources being used by different kinds of abilities (utility vs damage).

Why don't the bow users should be able to roll out of the danger while their main resource (stamina) is low, while the magika users able to do so ? They should be in the same boat as a general DPS players, but it appears to not to be the case. (This is just one of examples, other examples are more then welcome in the comments).

Please add suggestions and discuss.

Thank you for your time.

TL;DR Please read the head of the initial post before commenting. Thank you.

Edit: Added 6.

Edit 2: Added solution in the head of the post.

dc1509 · May 2014

daily bump... really ? is the idea that horrible ?

Hozec · May 2014

dc1509 wrote: »

daily bump... really ? is the idea that horrible ?

yes

ShintaiDK · May 2014

All spells and abilities use magicka? Then everyone wear cloth.

Drasn · May 2014

ShintaiDK wrote: »

All spells and abilities use magicka? Then everyone wear cloth.

Don't they already?

ebunts14_ESO · May 2014

dc1509 wrote: »

daily bump... really ? is the idea that horrible ?

You do know you are not allowed to bump your threads, don't you. Im sure a mod will let you know soon enough

dc1509 · May 2014

ShintaiDK wrote: »

All spells and abilities use magicka? Then everyone wear cloth.

OMG, just read the whole post...

For that exact reason I have proposed to rename Magicka to something else.

The idea have nothing to do with the armor types.

The only thing discussed/proposed is the resource used by the abilities/spells.

dc1509 · May 2014

Hozec wrote: »

dc1509 wrote: »

daily bump... really ? is the idea that horrible ?

yes

Do you mind providing at least a bit of elaboration on this ?

dc1509 · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Don't they already?

Exactly. Thank you for pointing this out.

zgrssd · May 2014

ebuntsb14_ESO wrote: »

dc1509 wrote: »

daily bump... really ? is the idea that horrible ?

You do know you are not allowed to bump your threads, don't you. Im sure a mod will let you know soon enough

If you think he violated the Rules, report him. But honestly I think that one bump every other day for something with 0 response seems okay. Chances are it just go burrierd under the last 400 "the game is doomed", "I unsub" and "Nerf X/don't nerf X" threads.

Regarding the OP:
Basically it boils down to removing Stamina as second mana bar. It's one of the core concepts of the game that you have two "offensive resource bars" (Stamina and Magica).

I think they will rather try to fix the bugs in the existing system (at thier due time) then burning it all down. That would propably cause more problems and backlash then it would solve.
It is one of those decisiosn you can make at desgin time and maybe every main version of the game. They choose this system for 1.0, they are stuck with it at least till 2.0. And the more they fix the current one, the less it likely they will have to burn it down.

ShintaiDK wrote: »

All spells and abilities use magicka? Then everyone wear cloth.

They designed to armor each has focus/resource bar it applies too. If they would change the way the resource system works, they would also rework how armors work.
If and only if!

ebunts14_ESO · May 2014

Lets take mana as an example. You put all your points into mana, eat mana based food and enhance you armor and weapon with mana. Now instead of doing 84 pts of damage that you might do you are now doing 250 pts of damage.

Now add in the fact you are using all light armor for fast mana regn, ultimates to increase mana regen, you can now spam that 250 pts of damage 5 times in matter of seconds. Your almost one shoting everyone in the game.

dc1509 · May 2014

ebuntsb14_ESO wrote: »

Lets take mana as an example. You put all your points into mana, eat mana based food and enhance you armor and weapon with mana. Now instead of doing 84 pts of damage that you might do you are now doing 250 pts of damage.

Now add in the fact you are using all light armor for fast mana regn, ultimates to increase mana regen, you can now spam that 250 pts of damage 5 times in matter of seconds. Your almost one shoting everyone in the game.

Thank you for the input, but have you even tried to read the initial post ?

The idea is to balance the damage output based on the amount of mana spent on it.

if you invest everything into mana you'll probably hit the softcap very soon, which will put you into having less HP then someone else, so your character will become the squishy glass cannon.

So, according to the idea, if you invest every single point into mana you'll most probably be able to cast more spells/abilities, but the final damage output and the burst potential wouldn't be drastic in comparison to some other "balanced build" character. You'll probably end up finding yourself dying too fast and respeccing.

ebunts14_ESO · May 2014

zgrssd wrote: »

ebuntsb14_ESO wrote: »

dc1509 wrote: »

daily bump... really ? is the idea that horrible ?

You do know you are not allowed to bump your threads, don't you. Im sure a mod will let you know soon enough

If you think he violated the Rules, report him. But honestly I think that one bump every other day for something with 0 response seems okay. Chances are it just go burrierd under the last 400 "the game is doomed", "I unsub" and "Nerf X/don't nerf X" threads

This is from another thread, player name removed. Maybe you need to read the rules. I was letting him know and it was not needed to report it.

ZOS_LenaicRZOS_LenaicR admin

May 28 Staff Post

Hi there,

@‌
Please refrain from replying to discussion threads for the sole purpose of “bumping” them. This is considered to be a form of spam because it does not add to the discussion in a constructive or meaningful way.
This is not allowed, per our Code of Conduct.

Thanks for your understanding

Jochamo · May 2014

Make all weapon skills (resto staff, destro staff included) stamina based abilities. Increase weapon damage (and heals) from abilities to exceed skill (magicka) based abilities.

Balance done.

dc1509 · May 2014

Jochamo wrote: »

Make all weapon skills (resto staff, destro staff included) stamina based abilities. Increase weapon damage (and heals) from abilities to exceed skill (magicka) based abilities.

Balance done.

Feel like inventing your own balancing system/idea - please create your own thread and describe it as you like.

have any constructive feedback on my idea ? Please be my guest and post your thoughts.

zgrssd · May 2014

ebuntsb14_ESO wrote: »

This is from another thread, player name removed. Maybe you need to read the rules. I was letting him know and it was not needed to report it.

Thanks, I actually read the rules (I am a wierd guy in that regard). If you look closely you can even find them linked in my signature.
I find it odd that you did not link the actually thread. I estiamte about 95% chances this happened after extensive bumping and not a single one. Wich would invalidate whatever argument you tried to make there. You are welcome to proove me wrong.

Since we are both aware of the rules as written, what exactly is the point you try to make?
I mean I at least gave some feedback to the OP, but you seem to only want to say "you are wrong". When I already showed you that I did make my homework.

dc1509 · May 2014

To @zgrssd:

Thank you for your honest opinion.

I understand that implementing my idea will require Zeni to admit that the initial resource usage system is not working. IMO - it's not working fine and equally for different classes/builds at the moment.

Lets pretend this to be ESO 2.0 idea.

Also, IIRC, the current skills/spells bugs and confusions have nothing to do with the resource usage system. wrong or unbalanced resource costs can't be called bugs, you know.

zgrssd · May 2014

dc1509 wrote: »

Also, IIRC, the current skills/spells bugs and confusions have nothing to do with the resource usage system. wrong or unbalanced resource costs can't be called bugs, you know.

They are only humans. They make mistakes. The way several skills work right now is not how they were intended.
I call this a "bug", because it is not how the game was suppsoed to be and not how it will be once they get around to fixing it (not an easy feat in a MMO).

dc1509 · May 2014

My idea and the main concept is to avoid using the same resource for the different kinds of abilities ("kinds" is the key word).

So, the bugs fixing process shouldn't be affected.

I'm mostly enjoying the game in the current state, but I would like my opinion to be heard. I want this game to be better without reinventing the wheel.

Back to the issue:
It's also possible to avoid the described issue by implementing another bar, just like the horse stamina bar, which is solely used by the sprint/hide/block/interrupt/roll abilities only. So the stamina pull is exclusively available for the damage abilities only.

That could work for me, and actually it looks to be better then initially described.

Madval · May 2014

The only thing that annoy me is that stamina is used for Block and Dodge too. When I hit things with my big d.. hum two hands I have no more stamina left for block or dodge

dc1509 · May 2014

Madval wrote: »

The only thing that annoy me is that stamina is used for Block and Dodge too. When I hit things with my big d.. hum two hands I have no more stamina left for block or dodge

It actually annoys every single stamina user I assume.

That was the reason for my respec from heavy/2h into the light/destr, back in 40th lvls. I'm a sorcerer by the way.

Jochamo · May 2014

dc1509 wrote: »

Jochamo wrote: »

Make all weapon skills (resto staff, destro staff included) stamina based abilities. Increase weapon damage (and heals) from abilities to exceed skill (magicka) based abilities.

Balance done.

Feel like inventing your own balancing system/idea - please create your own thread and describe it as you like.

have any constructive feedback on my idea ? Please be my guest and post your thoughts.

Fair enough.

There a two issues that I see with your idea:

1) It still does not address the issue that stamina based damage does not even approach magicka based damage. By removing the stamina cost of "utility" actions, you are essentially increasing the stamina pool. However, stamina based damage still will not compete with magicka based damage. You argument is based that more stamina = more damage, but that is true only compared to current stamina damage, not at all true compare to magicka based damage.

2) Your suggestion (I strongly suspect) would be a very difficult (and time consuming, and expensive) to implement.

I do invite response. As someone I respect notes, "truth is born in disputes."

dc1509 · May 2014

Jochamo wrote: »

There a two issues that I see with your idea:

1) It still does not address the issue that stamina based damage does not even approach magicka based damage. By removing the stamina cost of "utility" actions, you are essentially increasing the stamina pool. However, stamina based damage still will not compete with magicka based damage. You argument is based that more stamina = more damage, but that is true only compared to current stamina damage, not at all true compare to magicka based damage.

2) Your suggestion (I strongly suspect) would be a very difficult (and time consuming, and expensive) to implement.

I do invite response. As someone I respect notes, "truth is born in disputes."

Here comes the quintessence of both my ideas:

Basically, LVL 1 character (stats 0/0/0) should have equal amount of magicka and stamina.

The resource pulls are raised with lvl, so both magicka and stamina pulls will be on the same level, considering the same amount of attribute points invested.

So, in order to actually balance such a system, considering the fact that we have already removed the "utility" abilities from the stamina pull, they will need to create a formula which will dictate the amount of final damage each ability/spell inflicts, depending on the amount of resource spent (same amount of magicka or stamina per point of damage).

This will make usage of stamina based skills unviable (or mostly useless, BUT possible, like having 1 cc ability + 4 magicka based spells) in the magicka build and vice versa.

dc1509 · May 2014

To @Jochamo :

Regarding #2: Since the separate stamina bar is already in game (horse stamina) I doubt that the implementation would be any difficult.

The only difficulty in this scheme is the balancing process of costs of all of the spells/abilities in the game, since most of them require special approach due to the additional factors, like stun effects, cast time requirement, AOE effects being added with the morph or other similar effects. Each of the cases should affect the final cost values for the proper, fair and balanced spells/abilities to be produced in the end.